Catholic Confirmed, but non-believer

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It just doesn't make any sense what you are explaining.
If that's true across the board in every situation then when a teacher molests a child all schools have to shut down.
Every principal and every other teacher is guilty.
Parents who continue to send their child to school are saying they think its ok.
Lawmakers who pass bills to fund these schools are guilty.
And on and on.

You can hate Catholics (and all Christians for that matter) but to keep railing on this (and look up about rape and the NYC synagogues while you're at it) just isn't making the point you think it is.

Your railing is making a point, however -- that you can convince yourself of false and weak arguments to justify your continued allegiance to a corrupt institution.

Well, 1.2 billion Catholics agree with me world wide so I'm okay that you see things differently. Merry Christmas

And the 1.2b are the ones who look the other way in cases of child rape. Because of you the rapes continued.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:But again, please tell me how any of this means that my little 90 year old Italian grandmother in New Jersey who takes over an hour every day to get to morning mass with her walker, down the same street she has walked since she was a little girl, needs to leave the church inmediately. Or is complicit with this. Or any of the billion plus Catholics around the world that have nothing to do with it.

And again explain to me, since it was admitted above that schools have covered up abuse (and no one wanted to answer why there is no fury against Jewish community in NYC with the same type of crime), why you all haven't pulled your children out of public schools in protest?

So you're bringing out the Italian, eh? OK - it's certainly a way to level the playing field on this post, as I'm first gen.

Anyway, you're using extremes, sister. My Italian family members in Italy - the "younger" generation - don't attend church. my elderly aunts and uncles? sure! My mother, however, who's almost 80, left the church b/c of the scandal. Yes, she believes in God and Jesus and has had family members who were priests and nuns. But she's done - choosing instead to worship quietly. She's rare, however. I recognize that. But she said to me, after looking at my kids, "How can anyone trust a church that protected animals over innocent children?" (She actually used bestie.)

She'll be 80 in 2016.

the Jewish community? I won't be speaking for the Jews, as I don't know enough about their situation. although I do have non-religious Jewish friends who are disgusted by the child rape cases in certain communities

And you actually hurt your point by bringing up the Jews. Insular communities are dysfunctional. When you live among others who share outdated beliefs, when you live your lives by rules written ages ago and when you SHUN others who don't think as you do, you become unhealthy. sick in the head

BTW - Have you been to the Vatican? I have. Do you honestly think any religious institution should be THAT elaborate?

[Anonymous]

I find the rabid anti-Catholic ex-Catholic's adherence to a sort of neo-tribalism most interesting. In tribal societies, each member in a sense takes on the wrongs inflicted upon or inflicted by another member of the tribe and takes on the blame or the right for vengeance.

RACEC believes similarly that each and every Catholic is guilty and responsible for the crimes of the few of their co-religionists. The primal nature of his/her point of view unfiltered by where we are as a civilization in the US and many other countries where notions like collective punishment are rejected speaks of deep personal pain or dysfunction that has caused her/him to revert to a more primitive way of thinking.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I find the rabid anti-Catholic ex-Catholic's adherence to a sort of neo-tribalism most interesting. In tribal societies, each member in a sense takes on the wrongs inflicted upon or inflicted by another member of the tribe and takes on the blame or the right for vengeance.

RACEC believes similarly that each and every Catholic is guilty and responsible for the crimes of the few of their co-religionists. The primal nature of his/her point of view unfiltered by where we are as a civilization in the US and many other countries where notions like collective punishment are rejected speaks of deep personal pain or dysfunction that has caused her/him to revert to a more primitive way of thinking.

So now, to deflect, you're bringing up a sociological component.

Have you ever witnessed an assault? I've seen plenty in schools where kids and adults stand around and allow the assailant to brutally attack the victim. Yet, according to you, the onlookers are innocent.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I find the rabid anti-Catholic ex-Catholic's adherence to a sort of neo-tribalism most interesting. In tribal societies, each member in a sense takes on the wrongs inflicted upon or inflicted by another member of the tribe and takes on the blame or the right for vengeance.

RACEC believes similarly that each and every Catholic is guilty and responsible for the crimes of the few of their co-religionists. The primal nature of his/her point of view unfiltered by where we are as a civilization in the US and many other countries where notions like collective punishment are rejected speaks of deep personal pain or dysfunction that has caused her/him to revert to a more primitive way of thinking.

So now, to deflect, you're bringing up a sociological component.

Have you ever witnessed an assault? I've seen plenty in schools where kids and adults stand around and allow the assailant to brutally attack the victim. Yet, according to you, the onlookers are innocent.

How many of these acts of pedophilia had onlookers?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:But again, please tell me how any of this means that my little 90 year old Italian grandmother in New Jersey who takes over an hour every day to get to morning mass with her walker, down the same street she has walked since she was a little girl, needs to leave the church inmediately. Or is complicit with this. Or any of the billion plus Catholics around the world that have nothing to do with it.

And again explain to me, since it was admitted above that schools have covered up abuse (and no one wanted to answer why there is no fury against Jewish community in NYC with the same type of crime), why you all haven't pulled your children out of public schools in protest?

Your 90 yo grandma didn't come up until you mentioned her. Personally I'd say she's off the hook -- old habits are hard to change, and let's say she doesn't keep up with the news that much. However, That church down the street could close because many other parishionerrs dropped out and the church had no money after paying off abused children. In that case, your poor old Nonna would have to adjust -- and she would. And I'd rather have her break an age-old habit than continue to see kids get abused, wouldn't you?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It just doesn't make any sense what you are explaining.
If that's true across the board in every situation then when a teacher molests a child all schools have to shut down.
Every principal and every other teacher is guilty.
Parents who continue to send their child to school are saying they think its ok.
Lawmakers who pass bills to fund these schools are guilty.
And on and on.

You can hate Catholics (and all Christians for that matter) but to keep railing on this (and look up about rape and the NYC synagogues while you're at it) just isn't making the point you think it is.

Your railing is making a point, however -- that you can convince yourself of false and weak arguments to justify your continued allegiance to a corrupt institution.

I don't believe them to be false and weak and you haven't compelled anyone to think otherwise.

1,000's of Catholics have determined to leave on their own. THousands more are in denial or just coasting along and then there are some like pp who actually defend the church

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It just doesn't make any sense what you are explaining.
If that's true across the board in every situation then when a teacher molests a child all schools have to shut down.
Every principal and every other teacher is guilty.
Parents who continue to send their child to school are saying they think its ok.
Lawmakers who pass bills to fund these schools are guilty.
And on and on.
[b]
You can hate Catholics (and all Christians for that matter) but to keep railing on this (and look up about rape and the NYC synagogues while you're at it) just isn't making the point you think it is.

But schools don't protect such teachers and send them on to other schools to rape again, meaning that the principal and superintendent, with full knowledge of the teacher's crime, do nothing to protect that boy or other students.

See the difference?

Did you read about the voyeristic big shot orthodox Rabbi in DC who was caught and turned in by a woman in his own congregation? and forced to step down? and was convicted? No cover up, no blaming the victim, no defense of the indefensible.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I find the rabid anti-Catholic ex-Catholic's adherence to a sort of neo-tribalism most interesting. In tribal societies, each member in a sense takes on the wrongs inflicted upon or inflicted by another member of the tribe and takes on the blame or the right for vengeance.

RACEC believes similarly that each and every Catholic is guilty and responsible for the crimes of the few of their co-religionists. The primal nature of his/her point of view unfiltered by where we are as a civilization in the US and many other countries where notions like collective punishment are rejected speaks of deep personal pain or dysfunction that has caused her/him to revert to a more primitive way of thinking.

So now, to deflect, you're bringing up a sociological component.

Have you ever witnessed an assault? I've seen plenty in schools where kids and adults stand around and allow the assailant to brutally attack the victim. Yet, according to you, the onlookers are innocent.

How many of these acts of pedophilia had onlookers?

Try to stop being stupid for a moment.

But let be proactive and simplify in case your brain is too small to process too much information.

Let's say you belonged to St. John the Evangelist in Berbertown, MA. Your son, Michael, is friends with another little boy, Jimmy. They attend Sunday school together. You know the family but you're not that close. It's January, and you find out that your parish priest, Father Phil, has suddenly been transferred to another parish. Eventually, you see that he's made the news b/c he molested several children at your church. Jimmy, you discover, is one victim.

So while you weren't necessarily an "onlooker," you now know of the situation. You try to comfort the parents even though you're in shock. But yet you STILL return to church, week after week. well, b/c it didn't happen to YOUR kid

same as being an onlooker, I'd say

And I think many others would agree.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I find the rabid anti-Catholic ex-Catholic's adherence to a sort of neo-tribalism most interesting. In tribal societies, each member in a sense takes on the wrongs inflicted upon or inflicted by another member of the tribe and takes on the blame or the right for vengeance.

RACEC believes similarly that each and every Catholic is guilty and responsible for the crimes of the few of their co-religionists. The primal nature of his/her point of view unfiltered by where we are as a civilization in the US and many other countries where notions like collective punishment are rejected speaks of deep personal pain or dysfunction that has caused her/him to revert to a more primitive way of thinking.

So now, to deflect, you're bringing up a sociological component.

Have you ever witnessed an assault? I've seen plenty in schools where kids and adults stand around and allow the assailant to brutally attack the victim. Yet, according to you, the onlookers are innocent.

How many of these acts of pedophilia had onlookers?

Try to stop being stupid for a moment.

But let be proactive and simplify in case your brain is too small to process too much information.

Let's say you belonged to St. John the Evangelist in Berbertown, MA. Your son, Michael, is friends with another little boy, Jimmy. They attend Sunday school together. You know the family but you're not that close. It's January, and you find out that your parish priest, Father Phil, has suddenly been transferred to another parish. Eventually, you see that he's made the news b/c he molested several children at your church. Jimmy, you discover, is one victim.

So while you weren't necessarily an "onlooker," you now know of the situation. You try to comfort the parents even though you're in shock. But yet you STILL return to church, week after week. well, b/c it didn't happen to YOUR kid

same as being an onlooker, I'd say

And I think many others would agree.

You made a stupid analogy. You analogized returning to a church after a pediophilia incident to:

"I've seen plenty in schools where kids and adults stand around and allow the assailant to brutally attack the victim. Yet, according to you, the onlookers are innocent."

But it is not a good analogy. Yes, someone who witnesses pedophilia in progress and does nothing is quite guilty. We have no evidence this has ever occurred in the pediophilia incidents. Someone who was not present is not a do-nothing onlooker and is not guilty.

If you really mean your analogy to the school assault, you would have to complete it by saying that anyone not present at the school attack is duty bound to remove his child from the school. That is what you are telling people to do with respect to their churches.

Maybe you need another analogy. Also maybe a new hobbyhorse.

[Anonymous]

OH yawn - another day on DCUM. Any time the word "Catholic" is used it descends into the same crap. I wish the moderator of this board could do something before someone starts to think Catholics aren't welcome here.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I find the rabid anti-Catholic ex-Catholic's adherence to a sort of neo-tribalism most interesting. In tribal societies, each member in a sense takes on the wrongs inflicted upon or inflicted by another member of the tribe and takes on the blame or the right for vengeance.

RACEC believes similarly that each and every Catholic is guilty and responsible for the crimes of the few of their co-religionists. The primal nature of his/her point of view unfiltered by where we are as a civilization in the US and many other countries where notions like collective punishment are rejected speaks of deep personal pain or dysfunction that has caused her/him to revert to a more primitive way of thinking.

So now, to deflect, you're bringing up a sociological component.

Have you ever witnessed an assault? I've seen plenty in schools where kids and adults stand around and allow the assailant to brutally attack the victim. Yet, according to you, the onlookers are innocent.

How many of these acts of pedophilia had onlookers?

Try to stop being stupid for a moment.

But let be proactive and simplify in case your brain is too small to process too much information.

Let's say you belonged to St. John the Evangelist in Berbertown, MA. Your son, Michael, is friends with another little boy, Jimmy. They attend Sunday school together. You know the family but you're not that close. It's January, and you find out that your parish priest, Father Phil, has suddenly been transferred to another parish. Eventually, you see that he's made the news b/c he molested several children at your church. Jimmy, you discover, is one victim.

So while you weren't necessarily an "onlooker," you now know of the situation. You try to comfort the parents even though you're in shock. But yet you STILL return to church, week after week. well, b/c it didn't happen to YOUR kid

same as being an onlooker, I'd say

And I think many others would agree.

I have a better example. Let's say you were born and raised in Montgomery County, MD. Let's say you went to Catholic church and private Catholic school your entire life, as did your siblings and most of your friends (obviously, because they were your friends from school, CYO basketball, etc.). Let's say that, to your knowledge, none of them had ever been sexually assaulted by a priest or even personally knew someone that had been sexually assaulted by a priest. Then say that something bad happened in other places among people you have never met or known and then some psycho on the internet claims you and everyone you know are therefore evil. But that person only targets your group, and never applies the same reasoning to any of the countless other groups have that experienced the same problems (e.g., camps, public schools, boy scouts, non-Catholic religious organizations, basically any type of social, human community). What would you think about that person?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I find the rabid anti-Catholic ex-Catholic's adherence to a sort of neo-tribalism most interesting. In tribal societies, each member in a sense takes on the wrongs inflicted upon or inflicted by another member of the tribe and takes on the blame or the right for vengeance.

RACEC believes similarly that each and every Catholic is guilty and responsible for the crimes of the few of their co-religionists. The primal nature of his/her point of view unfiltered by where we are as a civilization in the US and many other countries where notions like collective punishment are rejected speaks of deep personal pain or dysfunction that has caused her/him to revert to a more primitive way of thinking.

So now, to deflect, you're bringing up a sociological component.

Have you ever witnessed an assault? I've seen plenty in schools where kids and adults stand around and allow the assailant to brutally attack the victim. Yet, according to you, the onlookers are innocent.

How many of these acts of pedophilia had onlookers?

Try to stop being stupid for a moment.

But let be proactive and simplify in case your brain is too small to process too much information.

Let's say you belonged to St. John the Evangelist in Berbertown, MA. Your son, Michael, is friends with another little boy, Jimmy. They attend Sunday school together. You know the family but you're not that close. It's January, and you find out that your parish priest, Father Phil, has suddenly been transferred to another parish. Eventually, you see that he's made the news b/c he molested several children at your church. Jimmy, you discover, is one victim.

So while you weren't necessarily an "onlooker," you now know of the situation. You try to comfort the parents even though you're in shock. But yet you STILL return to church, week after week. well, b/c it didn't happen to YOUR kid

same as being an onlooker, I'd say

And I think many others would agree.

I have a better example. Let's say you were born and raised in Montgomery County, MD. Let's say you went to Catholic church and private Catholic school your entire life, as did your siblings and most of your friends (obviously, because they were your friends from school, CYO basketball, etc.). Let's say that, to your knowledge, none of them had ever been sexually assaulted by a priest or even personally knew someone that had been sexually assaulted by a priest. Then say that something bad happened in other places among people you have never met or known and then some psycho on the internet claims you and everyone you know are therefore evil. But that person only targets your group, and never applies the same reasoning to any of the countless other groups have that experienced the same problems (e.g., camps, public schools, boy scouts, non-Catholic religious organizations, basically any type of social, human community). What would you think about that person?

Let's say that person isn't a psycho and is not making said claims, but instead repeats already known facts. Let's say the facts are repulsive and widespread and many people leave the church because they are disgusted by it and the church continues to protect some of the worse perpetrators while other groups that have done some horrible things do not protect the criminals in their midst or say "everyone does it, why pick on us?" while they continue to monetarily support the institution that perpetrated and covered up the criminal behavior and continues to protect those invovled.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I find the rabid anti-Catholic ex-Catholic's adherence to a sort of neo-tribalism most interesting. In tribal societies, each member in a sense takes on the wrongs inflicted upon or inflicted by another member of the tribe and takes on the blame or the right for vengeance.

RACEC believes similarly that each and every Catholic is guilty and responsible for the crimes of the few of their co-religionists. The primal nature of his/her point of view unfiltered by where we are as a civilization in the US and many other countries where notions like collective punishment are rejected speaks of deep personal pain or dysfunction that has caused her/him to revert to a more primitive way of thinking.

So now, to deflect, you're bringing up a sociological component.

Have you ever witnessed an assault? I've seen plenty in schools where kids and adults stand around and allow the assailant to brutally attack the victim. Yet, according to you, the onlookers are innocent.

How many of these acts of pedophilia had onlookers?

Try to stop being stupid for a moment.

But let be proactive and simplify in case your brain is too small to process too much information.

Let's say you belonged to St. John the Evangelist in Berbertown, MA. Your son, Michael, is friends with another little boy, Jimmy. They attend Sunday school together. You know the family but you're not that close. It's January, and you find out that your parish priest, Father Phil, has suddenly been transferred to another parish. Eventually, you see that he's made the news b/c he molested several children at your church. Jimmy, you discover, is one victim.

So while you weren't necessarily an "onlooker," you now know of the situation. You try to comfort the parents even though you're in shock. But yet you STILL return to church, week after week. well, b/c it didn't happen to YOUR kid

same as being an onlooker, I'd say

And I think many others would agree.

I have a better example. Let's say you were born and raised in Montgomery County, MD. Let's say you went to Catholic church and private Catholic school your entire life, as did your siblings and most of your friends (obviously, because they were your friends from school, CYO basketball, etc.). Let's say that, to your knowledge, none of them had ever been sexually assaulted by a priest or even personally knew someone that had been sexually assaulted by a priest. Then say that something bad happened in other places among people you have never met or known and then some psycho on the internet claims you and everyone you know are therefore evil. But that person only targets your group, and never applies the same reasoning to any of the countless other groups have that experienced the same problems (e.g., camps, public schools, boy scouts, non-Catholic religious organizations, basically any type of social, human community). What would you think about that person?

Maybe that person could find spiritual fulfillment elsewhere and could stay in contact with old buddies from school without paying into an international organization that harms children and protects criminals.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I find the rabid anti-Catholic ex-Catholic's adherence to a sort of neo-tribalism most interesting. In tribal societies, each member in a sense takes on the wrongs inflicted upon or inflicted by another member of the tribe and takes on the blame or the right for vengeance.

RACEC believes similarly that each and every Catholic is guilty and responsible for the crimes of the few of their co-religionists. The primal nature of his/her point of view unfiltered by where we are as a civilization in the US and many other countries where notions like collective punishment are rejected speaks of deep personal pain or dysfunction that has caused her/him to revert to a more primitive way of thinking.

So now, to deflect, you're bringing up a sociological component.

Have you ever witnessed an assault? I've seen plenty in schools where kids and adults stand around and allow the assailant to brutally attack the victim. Yet, according to you, the onlookers are innocent.

How many of these acts of pedophilia had onlookers?

Try to stop being stupid for a moment.

But let be proactive and simplify in case your brain is too small to process too much information.

Let's say you belonged to St. John the Evangelist in Berbertown, MA. Your son, Michael, is friends with another little boy, Jimmy. They attend Sunday school together. You know the family but you're not that close. It's January, and you find out that your parish priest, Father Phil, has suddenly been transferred to another parish. Eventually, you see that he's made the news b/c he molested several children at your church. Jimmy, you discover, is one victim.

So while you weren't necessarily an "onlooker," you now know of the situation. You try to comfort the parents even though you're in shock. But yet you STILL return to church, week after week. well, b/c it didn't happen to YOUR kid

same as being an onlooker, I'd say

And I think many others would agree.

I have a better example. Let's say you were born and raised in Montgomery County, MD. Let's say you went to Catholic church and private Catholic school your entire life, as did your siblings and most of your friends (obviously, because they were your friends from school, CYO basketball, etc.). Let's say that, to your knowledge, none of them had ever been sexually assaulted by a priest or even personally knew someone that had been sexually assaulted by a priest. Then say that something bad happened in other places among people you have never met or known and then some psycho on the internet claims you and everyone you know are therefore evil. But that person only targets your group, and never applies the same reasoning to any of the countless other groups have that experienced the same problems (e.g., camps, public schools, boy scouts, non-Catholic religious organizations, basically any type of social, human community). What would you think about that person?

Let's say that person isn't a psycho and is not making said claims, but instead repeats already known facts. Let's say the facts are repulsive and widespread and many people leave the church because they are disgusted by it and the church continues to protect some of the worse perpetrators while other groups that have done some horrible things do not protect the criminals in their midst or say "everyone does it, why pick on us?" while they continue to monetarily support the institution that perpetrated and covered up the criminal behavior and continues to protect those invovled.

Care to provide any evidence about the "worst perpetrators" that are still being protected?

Also, I assume you think that Penn State needs to shut down. And Horace Mann (http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/vics-perps-cited-horace-mann-sex-abuse-scandal-article-1.1424153). And Yeshiva High (http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/29/nyregion/abuse-victims-at-yeshiva-high-seek-to-reinstate-suit-over-schools-cover-up.html), or basically all of Judaism, I guess?

And those examples came from a 0.2 minute google search. If you ran a few google searches, you would be quickly disabused of your theory that that this is some sort of special Catholic problem and that anyone that remains Catholic is thus automatically evil. But you like being nasty and feeling self-righteous, so of course you won't bother to do any research or try to justify your double-standards.