Catholic Confirmed, but non-believer

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm Catholic, went to Catholic school, got all the sacraments. We married in a Catholic ceremony and got the kids baptized in the church. We are both sort of agnostic. I believe in God in a general sense and I think Jesus had a great message that isn't really reflected in any version of Christianity that I've encountered. I don't know that that makes me from a religious standpoint but I'm comfortable with this. We don't force religion on our kids and I encourage them to explore their own views and feelings.

I think being Catholic is a strong identity and there's a lot to enjoy in it, apart from actual religious beliefs. Don't worry about whether your beliefs actually jive with the church-- polling of Catholics indicates that most of us don't believe what we are "supposed" to. Still, it is a strong cultural tradition to pass to our kids. Just go with it. You're actually doing what most Catholics do.

like centuries of covering up pedophilia.

Seriously, all the traditions can be found in the episcopal church, without the evil at the core.

This sounds like an episcopalian to me. Perfectly politically correct about certain matters (e.g., would never dare say anything bad about Islamn) but willing to cheerfully call the church founded by St. Peter on Christ's instruction "evil at the core."

You don't have to be episcopalian to know that -- just follow the pedophilia scandal. It wasn't a few bad apples. It went straight to the top -- to the core, you might say.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm Catholic, went to Catholic school, got all the sacraments. We married in a Catholic ceremony and got the kids baptized in the church. We are both sort of agnostic. I believe in God in a general sense and I think Jesus had a great message that isn't really reflected in any version of Christianity that I've encountered. I don't know that that makes me from a religious standpoint but I'm comfortable with this. We don't force religion on our kids and I encourage them to explore their own views and feelings.

I think being Catholic is a strong identity and there's a lot to enjoy in it, apart from actual religious beliefs. Don't worry about whether your beliefs actually jive with the church-- polling of Catholics indicates that most of us don't believe what we are "supposed" to. Still, it is a strong cultural tradition to pass to our kids. Just go with it. You're actually doing what most Catholics do.

like centuries of covering up pedophilia.

Seriously, all the traditions can be found in the episcopal church, without the evil at the core.

This sounds like an episcopalian to me. Perfectly politically correct about certain matters (e.g., would never dare say anything bad about Islamn) but willing to cheerfully call the church founded by St. Peter on Christ's instruction "evil at the core."

One would think that men of god raping kids as young as three - all OVER the world - would be evil to the core.

But go on and praise god!

- ex-catholic

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm Catholic, went to Catholic school, got all the sacraments. We married in a Catholic ceremony and got the kids baptized in the church. We are both sort of agnostic. I believe in God in a general sense and I think Jesus had a great message that isn't really reflected in any version of Christianity that I've encountered. I don't know that that makes me from a religious standpoint but I'm comfortable with this. We don't force religion on our kids and I encourage them to explore their own views and feelings.

I think being Catholic is a strong identity and there's a lot to enjoy in it, apart from actual religious beliefs. Don't worry about whether your beliefs actually jive with the church-- polling of Catholics indicates that most of us don't believe what we are "supposed" to. Still, it is a strong cultural tradition to pass to our kids. Just go with it. You're actually doing what most Catholics do.

like centuries of covering up pedophilia.

Seriously, all the traditions can be found in the episcopal church, without the evil at the core.

This sounds like an episcopalian to me. Perfectly politically correct about certain matters (e.g., would never dare say anything bad about Islamn) but willing to cheerfully call the church founded by St. Peter on Christ's instruction "evil at the core."

One would think that men of god raping kids as young as three - all OVER the world - would be evil to the core.

But go on and praise god!

- ex-catholic

Even the super-liberal Washington Post disagrees with you: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/04/16/AR2010041602026.html " target="_new" rel="nofollow"> http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/04/16/AR2010041602026.html

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm Catholic, went to Catholic school, got all the sacraments. We married in a Catholic ceremony and got the kids baptized in the church. We are both sort of agnostic. I believe in God in a general sense and I think Jesus had a great message that isn't really reflected in any version of Christianity that I've encountered. I don't know that that makes me from a religious standpoint but I'm comfortable with this. We don't force religion on our kids and I encourage them to explore their own views and feelings.

I think being Catholic is a strong identity and there's a lot to enjoy in it, apart from actual religious beliefs. Don't worry about whether your beliefs actually jive with the church-- polling of Catholics indicates that most of us don't believe what we are "supposed" to. Still, it is a strong cultural tradition to pass to our kids. Just go with it. You're actually doing what most Catholics do.

like centuries of covering up pedophilia.

Seriously, all the traditions can be found in the episcopal church, without the evil at the core.

This sounds like an episcopalian to me. Perfectly politically correct about certain matters (e.g., would never dare say anything bad about Islamn) but willing to cheerfully call the church founded by St. Peter on Christ's instruction "evil at the core."

One would think that men of god raping kids as young as three - all OVER the world - would be evil to the core.

But go on and praise god!

- ex-catholic

Even the super-liberal Washington Post disagrees with you: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/04/16/AR2010041602026.html " target="_new" rel="nofollow"> http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/04/16/AR2010041602026.html

This article does nothing to refute the crimes of the Catholic church

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm Catholic, went to Catholic school, got all the sacraments. We married in a Catholic ceremony and got the kids baptized in the church. We are both sort of agnostic. I believe in God in a general sense and I think Jesus had a great message that isn't really reflected in any version of Christianity that I've encountered. I don't know that that makes me from a religious standpoint but I'm comfortable with this. We don't force religion on our kids and I encourage them to explore their own views and feelings.

I think being Catholic is a strong identity and there's a lot to enjoy in it, apart from actual religious beliefs. Don't worry about whether your beliefs actually jive with the church-- polling of Catholics indicates that most of us don't believe what we are "supposed" to. Still, it is a strong cultural tradition to pass to our kids. Just go with it. You're actually doing what most Catholics do.

like centuries of covering up pedophilia.

Seriously, all the traditions can be found in the episcopal church, without the evil at the core.

This sounds like an episcopalian to me. Perfectly politically correct about certain matters (e.g., would never dare say anything bad about Islamn) but willing to cheerfully call the church founded by St. Peter on Christ's instruction "evil at the core."

One would think that men of god raping kids as young as three - all OVER the world - would be evil to the core.

But go on and praise god!

- ex-catholic

Even the super-liberal Washington Post disagrees with you: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/04/16/AR2010041602026.html " target="_new" rel="nofollow"> http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/04/16/AR2010041602026.html

This article does nothing to refute the crimes of the Catholic church

The Catholic church is a 2,000 year old institution that has had literally billions of members and has survived the rise and fall of numerous empires. Some of those billions of people have been terrible. Some of those billions of people have be wonderful (one might even say saints).

Plenty of other institutions have had the same problems in recent decades -- other religious denominations, the boy scouts, camps, public schools, foster care, you name it. There's no evidence that child abuse was more frequent in the Catholic church than in other institutions -- if you can find some evidence, feel free to share it. Because the the Catholic church is enormous and such a prominent institution, the scale creates headlines. (I'd also argue that certain people in the media had an axe to grind given the church's stance on other highly controversial political issues, but that's just my opinion.) Child abuse is simply and sadly much more common than most people ever expected.

When looking back at the decisions of individual bishops to move priests around, though, please keep in mind that back in the 70s and even 80s, secular psychologists frequently advised that child abusers could be cured with counseling and therapy, and people believed and acted on that advice. The child abusers themselves were obviously despicable -- this is true both of the 90% plus who abused teenagers and the extremely small number who abused younger children -- as were the bishops who continued with failing policies when it was obvious they were putting children in danger. Those bishops should have been forced out long ago, and should have apologized for the church's gross negligence long before they actually did.

That being said, the vast majority of Catholic priests are NOT child abusers and there is NO evidence that a Catholic priest is more likely to abuse your kid than any other male authority figure (camp counselor, teacher, rabbi, travel team soccer coach, boy scout headmaster, etc...). To claim the church is "evil at its core" is simply bigotry.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm Catholic, went to Catholic school, got all the sacraments. We married in a Catholic ceremony and got the kids baptized in the church. We are both sort of agnostic. I believe in God in a general sense and I think Jesus had a great message that isn't really reflected in any version of Christianity that I've encountered. I don't know that that makes me from a religious standpoint but I'm comfortable with this. We don't force religion on our kids and I encourage them to explore their own views and feelings.

I think being Catholic is a strong identity and there's a lot to enjoy in it, apart from actual religious beliefs. Don't worry about whether your beliefs actually jive with the church-- polling of Catholics indicates that most of us don't believe what we are "supposed" to. Still, it is a strong cultural tradition to pass to our kids. Just go with it. You're actually doing what most Catholics do.

like centuries of covering up pedophilia.

Seriously, all the traditions can be found in the episcopal church, without the evil at the core.

This sounds like an episcopalian to me. Perfectly politically correct about certain matters (e.g., would never dare say anything bad about Islamn) but willing to cheerfully call the church founded by St. Peter on Christ's instruction "evil at the core."

One would think that men of god raping kids as young as three - all OVER the world - would be evil to the core.

But go on and praise god!

- ex-catholic

Even the super-liberal Washington Post disagrees with you: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/04/16/AR2010041602026.html " target="_new" rel="nofollow"> http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/04/16/AR2010041602026.html

This article does nothing to refute the crimes of the Catholic church

The Catholic church is a 2,000 year old institution that has had literally billions of members and has survived the rise and fall of numerous empires. Some of those billions of people have been terrible. Some of those billions of people have be wonderful (one might even say saints).

Plenty of other institutions have had the same problems in recent decades -- other religious denominations, the boy scouts, camps, public schools, foster care, you name it. There's no evidence that child abuse was more frequent in the Catholic church than in other institutions -- if you can find some evidence, feel free to share it. Because the the Catholic church is enormous and such a prominent institution, the scale creates headlines. (I'd also argue that certain people in the media had an axe to grind given the church's stance on other highly controversial political issues, but that's just my opinion.) Child abuse is simply and sadly much more common than most people ever expected.

When looking back at the decisions of individual bishops to move priests around, though, please keep in mind that back in the 70s and even 80s, secular psychologists frequently advised that child abusers could be cured with counseling and therapy, and people believed and acted on that advice. The child abusers themselves were obviously despicable -- this is true both of the 90% plus who abused teenagers and the extremely small number who abused younger children -- as were the bishops who continued with failing policies when it was obvious they were putting children in danger. Those bishops should have been forced out long ago, and should have apologized for the church's gross negligence long before they actually did.

That being said, the vast majority of Catholic priests are NOT child abusers and there is NO evidence that a Catholic priest is more likely to abuse your kid than any other male authority figure (camp counselor, teacher, rabbi, travel team soccer coach, boy scout headmaster, etc...). To claim the church is "evil at its core" is simply bigotry.

But there's plenty of evidence that the Catholic church is more likely to cover it up and continue victimizing children. Shame on you for wasting so many words defending the indefensible.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm Catholic, went to Catholic school, got all the sacraments. We married in a Catholic ceremony and got the kids baptized in the church. We are both sort of agnostic. I believe in God in a general sense and I think Jesus had a great message that isn't really reflected in any version of Christianity that I've encountered. I don't know that that makes me from a religious standpoint but I'm comfortable with this. We don't force religion on our kids and I encourage them to explore their own views and feelings.

I think being Catholic is a strong identity and there's a lot to enjoy in it, apart from actual religious beliefs. Don't worry about whether your beliefs actually jive with the church-- polling of Catholics indicates that most of us don't believe what we are "supposed" to. Still, it is a strong cultural tradition to pass to our kids. Just go with it. You're actually doing what most Catholics do.

like centuries of covering up pedophilia.

Seriously, all the traditions can be found in the episcopal church, without the evil at the core.

This sounds like an episcopalian to me. Perfectly politically correct about certain matters (e.g., would never dare say anything bad about Islamn) but willing to cheerfully call the church founded by St. Peter on Christ's instruction "evil at the core."

One would think that men of god raping kids as young as three - all OVER the world - would be evil to the core.

But go on and praise god!

- ex-catholic

Even the super-liberal Washington Post disagrees with you: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/04/16/AR2010041602026.html " target="_new" rel="nofollow"> http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/04/16/AR2010041602026.html

This article does nothing to refute the crimes of the Catholic church

The Catholic church is a 2,000 year old institution that has had literally billions of members and has survived the rise and fall of numerous empires. Some of those billions of people have been terrible. Some of those billions of people have be wonderful (one might even say saints).

Plenty of other institutions have had the same problems in recent decades -- other religious denominations, the boy scouts, camps, public schools, foster care, you name it. There's no evidence that child abuse was more frequent in the Catholic church than in other institutions -- if you can find some evidence, feel free to share it. Because the the Catholic church is enormous and such a prominent institution, the scale creates headlines. (I'd also argue that certain people in the media had an axe to grind given the church's stance on other highly controversial political issues, but that's just my opinion.) Child abuse is simply and sadly much more common than most people ever expected.

When looking back at the decisions of individual bishops to move priests around, though, please keep in mind that back in the 70s and even 80s, secular psychologists frequently advised that child abusers could be cured with counseling and therapy, and people believed and acted on that advice. The child abusers themselves were obviously despicable -- this is true both of the 90% plus who abused teenagers and the extremely small number who abused younger children -- as were the bishops who continued with failing policies when it was obvious they were putting children in danger. Those bishops should have been forced out long ago, and should have apologized for the church's gross negligence long before they actually did.

That being said, the vast majority of Catholic priests are NOT child abusers and there is NO evidence that a Catholic priest is more likely to abuse your kid than any other male authority figure (camp counselor, teacher, rabbi, travel team soccer coach, boy scout headmaster, etc...). To claim the church is "evil at its core" is simply bigotry.

But there's plenty of evidence that the Catholic church is more likely to cover it up and continue victimizing children. Shame on you for wasting so many words defending the indefensible.

Shame on you for being a disgraceful bigot.

[Anonymous]

Shame on you for rationalizing the rape of children with such a weak excuse - that others do it too.

The church could have used its power to stop it, but instead used its power to cover it up and deny it and ultimately perpetuate it -- for centuries. And obviously some of its followers do the same.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm Catholic, went to Catholic school, got all the sacraments. We married in a Catholic ceremony and got the kids baptized in the church. We are both sort of agnostic. I believe in God in a general sense and I think Jesus had a great message that isn't really reflected in any version of Christianity that I've encountered. I don't know that that makes me from a religious standpoint but I'm comfortable with this. We don't force religion on our kids and I encourage them to explore their own views and feelings.

I think being Catholic is a strong identity and there's a lot to enjoy in it, apart from actual religious beliefs. Don't worry about whether your beliefs actually jive with the church-- polling of Catholics indicates that most of us don't believe what we are "supposed" to. Still, it is a strong cultural tradition to pass to our kids. Just go with it. You're actually doing what most Catholics do.

like centuries of covering up pedophilia.

Seriously, all the traditions can be found in the episcopal church, without the evil at the core.

This sounds like an episcopalian to me. Perfectly politically correct about certain matters (e.g., would never dare say anything bad about Islamn) but willing to cheerfully call the church founded by St. Peter on Christ's instruction "evil at the core."

One would think that men of god raping kids as young as three - all OVER the world - would be evil to the core.

But go on and praise god!

- ex-catholic

Even the super-liberal Washington Post disagrees with you: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/04/16/AR2010041602026.html " target="_new" rel="nofollow"> http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/04/16/AR2010041602026.html

This article does nothing to refute the crimes of the Catholic church

The Catholic church is a 2,000 year old institution that has had literally billions of members and has survived the rise and fall of numerous empires. Some of those billions of people have been terrible. Some of those billions of people have be wonderful (one might even say saints).

Plenty of other institutions have had the same problems in recent decades -- other religious denominations, the boy scouts, camps, public schools, foster care, you name it. There's no evidence that child abuse was more frequent in the Catholic church than in other institutions -- if you can find some evidence, feel free to share it. Because the the Catholic church is enormous and such a prominent institution, the scale creates headlines. (I'd also argue that certain people in the media had an axe to grind given the church's stance on other highly controversial political issues, but that's just my opinion.) Child abuse is simply and sadly much more common than most people ever expected.

When looking back at the decisions of individual bishops to move priests around, though, please keep in mind that back in the 70s and even 80s, secular psychologists frequently advised that child abusers could be cured with counseling and therapy, and people believed and acted on that advice. The child abusers themselves were obviously despicable -- this is true both of the 90% plus who abused teenagers and the extremely small number who abused younger children -- as were the bishops who continued with failing policies when it was obvious they were putting children in danger. Those bishops should have been forced out long ago, and should have apologized for the church's gross negligence long before they actually did.

That being said, the vast majority of Catholic priests are NOT child abusers and there is NO evidence that a Catholic priest is more likely to abuse your kid than any other male authority figure (camp counselor, teacher, rabbi, travel team soccer coach, boy scout headmaster, etc...). To claim the church is "evil at its core" is simply bigotry.

But there's plenty of evidence that the Catholic church is more likely to cover it up and continue victimizing children. Shame on you for wasting so many words defending the indefensible.

Shame on you for being a disgraceful bigot.

bigoted against pedophilia and its cover up? Damn right

[Anonymous]

I'm the PP that said that raising kids Catholic can give a strong cultural tradition, and I was asked why I didn't go with the Episcopalians instead, since their history is supposedly more pristine. First, I want to point out that it was started by a misogynist who was tired of murdering his wives and needed to divorce instead, so don't feel like you're on some moral high-ground. Second, religion isn't only about beliefs, it's about comforting rituals and communities. It makes sense that people tend to find the most comfort in the rituals in which they were raised. Don't overthink this. All religion is silly and corrupt. All of them. Even yours. So stop throwing stones.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I'm the PP that said that raising kids Catholic can give a strong cultural tradition, and I was asked why I didn't go with the Episcopalians instead, since their history is supposedly more pristine. First, I want to point out that it was started by a misogynist who was tired of murdering his wives and needed to divorce instead, so don't feel like you're on some moral high-ground. Second, religion isn't only about beliefs, it's about comforting rituals and communities. It makes sense that people tend to find the most comfort in the rituals in which they were raised. Don't overthink this. All religion is silly and corrupt. All of them. Even yours. So stop throwing stones.

Lots of people who grew up with the comforting rituals and traditions of Catholicism have found other outlets that don't involve supporting an international crime ring.

As for the Episcopalians, they have gotten better and better since their rocky start five centuries ago and now actively support acceptance for the kinds of people that catholics reject as being "disordered."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP here: My DH and I believe in God but have never believed in Jesus. We are cultural Catholics with robustly Catholic parents and extended family.

We attend church weekly because God is very important in the life of my DH and myself and because we actually are becoming more grateful and selfless as a result. We want our kids to be open-minded about the possibility of God. However, despite years of trying, I've gotten nowhere on Jesus and so forth.

So I think my answer for myself is I do not want to ask our kids to profess faith in something when they don't have it. "The mystery of faith" really is one to me.

Thank you for the responses.

You should meet with the parish priest and discuss your doubts with him. That's part of his calling.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here: My DH and I believe in God but have never believed in Jesus. We are cultural Catholics with robustly Catholic parents and extended family.

We attend church weekly because God is very important in the life of my DH and myself and because we actually are becoming more grateful and selfless as a result. We want our kids to be open-minded about the possibility of God. However, despite years of trying, I've gotten nowhere on Jesus and so forth.

So I think my answer for myself is I do not want to ask our kids to profess faith in something when they don't have it. "The mystery of faith" really is one to me.

Thank you for the responses.

You should meet with the parish priest and discuss your doubts with him. That's part of his calling.

PO doesn't have "doubts" -- she doesn't believe in Jesus, which means she is not a Christian. Her kids also don't believe, despite years of involvement in the Catholic Church. Time for them to move on, which she understands, but you don't.

[Anonymous]

Please do not confirm your kids. Keep them in school, but don't be hypocritical. Church sounds meaningful to you and DH. You should talk to your kids about why.

I find that these days, the Holy Spirit speaks more to me. But I get a lot of insight by studying Jesus's teachings. New levels of awareness and understanding, OP.

I would also suggest that you meditate. I was taught this in Catholic HS and I think it has been the key to moving through arid periods of spiritual connection.

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/philfoxrose/meditation-for-christians/

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here: My DH and I believe in God but have never believed in Jesus. We are cultural Catholics with robustly Catholic parents and extended family.

We attend church weekly because God is very important in the life of my DH and myself and because we actually are becoming more grateful and selfless as a result. We want our kids to be open-minded about the possibility of God. However, despite years of trying, I've gotten nowhere on Jesus and so forth.

So I think my answer for myself is I do not want to ask our kids to profess faith in something when they don't have it. "The mystery of faith" really is one to me.

Thank you for the responses.

You should meet with the parish priest and discuss your doubts with him. That's part of his calling.

PO doesn't have "doubts" -- she doesn't believe in Jesus, which means she is not a Christian. Her kids also don't believe, despite years of involvement in the Catholic Church. Time for them to move on, which she understands, but you don't.

PP here. I take the OP's post as someone who wants to return to the Church but can't seem to find her way back. Christmastime is an easy time to reapproach the faith.