How to approach a friend in total denial

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP, I'm a PP from page 2 who dealt with family denial that ended in suicide much like your friend's dd. You are on the right track with how you support the family, and god bless you for it. It sounds like your friend could use some distance to see the situation clearly. if she knows this person also, maybe just mentioning how you have been thinking about them lately and wondering if her son is on that path will be a good conversation starter. If she kneejerks "NO that is NOT my son how could you say that!!!" vs if she says "yeah I've been worried about that too, nothing we do seems to be working"--then you will know how much denial she really is in.

Ignore the haters here. they have never dealt with mental illness or suicide and it's obvious.

OP has been focused on getting him into a residential program, and seems to think that's the answer. So what happens when OP suggests it and her friend says, "Yeah, we looked into that, but we can't afford any of the private-pay clinics. We might be able to swing one that takes our insurance, but he won't admit himself. So the only way to get him in is to demonstrate that he presents an imminent risk of harm to himself or others, but according the doctors we've spoken to, we can't demonstrate that yet. So we're stuck." Then what is the OP going to say? What's the next brilliant insight?

It's terrible the toll this is taking on the whole family, but that doesn't mean there's a good answer to it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:16:02 here. 16:50, you only think that because YOU have thought about it. That is what denial means. My family member had previous attempts under her belt, and it was STILL not on the radar of those closest to her. OPknows her friend better than we do and is in a better position to judge.

Actually, I think there is a very strong chance that anyone who has investigated ECT and taken her DS to do it must be well aware of suicide risk.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP friend's son is like mine but my DS is not nearly as bad. He had a traumatizing experience at college (roommate bullied him relentlessly) in addition to other problems, came home. Before this he did part of a summer at a therapeutic place ($50,000, some insurance re-imbursement). Took a job for a while, quit. Went to CC a semester, failed. Sat at home for about two years.

What has NOT helped. DH saying repeatedly, "Let's face it he is a hopeless case--he needs years of therapy."

First off, he won't go to therapy and he is over 18 so I can't make him. He does see a medicating psychiatrist. I have looked into places as no doubt OP has. But, apart from the important fact that DS won't even do the intake interview, I really think the vast majority of them will not be helpful.

A place like Menninger may be successful at getting someone out of a deep depression but then what? I'd spend the money if I thought it would put him firmly on a positive, upward path, but I know the chances are against this and it is all hypothetical if he is not willing to go in the first place.

What has helped. Me keeping an optimistic outlook and giving him lots of encouragement. He started college locally this semester and so far it is looking okay. Far from perfect, but he is turning in work and attending classes.

OP appears to think her friend is in denial because she won't admit her DS is a hopeless case a la DH. OP thinks she would be doing her friend a favor by giving her a reality check on her denial. If someone called me on how I am handling the situation I'd say what I've said above, in . If they then pressed that I was in denial, I'd say I am doing the best I can and keeping positive allows me to continue giving him encouragement, the best and only hope he and I have.

NP here, and I just wanted to send out virtual (((hugs))) to you and your family. I'm so sorry to read about your son's experience at college, that is heartbreaking. You sound like a fantastic mom and I if I were ever in a position like yours, I hope I could do as great a job as you are.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, I'm a PP from page 2 who dealt with family denial that ended in suicide much like your friend's dd. You are on the right track with how you support the family, and god bless you for it. It sounds like your friend could use some distance to see the situation clearly. if she knows this person also, maybe just mentioning how you have been thinking about them lately and wondering if her son is on that path will be a good conversation starter. If she kneejerks "NO that is NOT my son how could you say that!!!" vs if she says "yeah I've been worried about that too, nothing we do seems to be working"--then you will know how much denial she really is in.

Ignore the haters here. they have never dealt with mental illness or suicide and it's obvious.

have you read anything OP said...and by the way OP's friend has a son.Geez

I read when she said this:

We both know someone who a few years ago was in a similiar situation but with a daughter. The mom just refused to see and acknowledge how bad it was, maybe living with it every day she just got used to that as being her new norm.

People were very hushed about it because they saw the wall she put up. Sadly the D committed suicide about a year later, no one thought it was "that bad" and needless to say it has devastated that entire family. I keep thinking about them, maybe someone close to them SHOULD have spoken up and said something, urged them to do more, etc........

Have YOU read what she's written? About the way she supports the family, the healthy son, and sees him as the mom does not? Have YOU dealt with the mental illness and suicide of a loved one? Have YOU had to look at yourself in the mirror afterwards and remember all the times you could have said something, but didn't?

I'm betting no by your judgmental stone-throwing. People who have been there generally have more empathy. You have contributed nothing, no experience, no insight, just negativity, and poorly-informed negativity at that. So sit down, shut the fuck up, and let people who have been there help each other.

You are crazy as a loon. those comments that you are highlighting still doesn't make OPS friend have a daughter instead of a son. And exactly what is it that you want OP to say? I AM REALLY SORRY ABOUT THE LAHORE THAT YOU LOST, BUT IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THIS PARTICULAR SITUATION IN WHICH A FAMILY IS DOING EVERYTHING THEY POSSIBLY COULD DO WITH THE HELP OF MEDICAL PROFESSIONALS WHICH OP IS NOT SO UNLESS YOU JUST WANT HER TO SAY SOMETHING JUST FOR THE HELL OF SAYING IT THEN YOU AND OP NEED TO TAKE A SEAT SEVERAL SEATs
YOU SOUND CRAZY

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, I'm a PP from page 2 who dealt with family denial that ended in suicide much like your friend's dd. You are on the right track with how you support the family, and god bless you for it. It sounds like your friend could use some distance to see the situation clearly. if she knows this person also, maybe just mentioning how you have been thinking about them lately and wondering if her son is on that path will be a good conversation starter. If she kneejerks "NO that is NOT my son how could you say that!!!" vs if she says "yeah I've been worried about that too, nothing we do seems to be working"--then you will know how much denial she really is in.

Ignore the haters here. they have never dealt with mental illness or suicide and it's obvious.

have you read anything OP said...and by the way OP's friend has a son.Geez

I read when she said this:

We both know someone who a few years ago was in a similiar situation but with a daughter. The mom just refused to see and acknowledge how bad it was, maybe living with it every day she just got used to that as being her new norm.

People were very hushed about it because they saw the wall she put up. Sadly the D committed suicide about a year later, no one thought it was "that bad" and needless to say it has devastated that entire family. I keep thinking about them, maybe someone close to them SHOULD have spoken up and said something, urged them to do more, etc........

Have YOU read what she's written? About the way she supports the family, the healthy son, and sees him as the mom does not? Have YOU dealt with the mental illness and suicide of a loved one? Have YOU had to look at yourself in the mirror afterwards and remember all the times you could have said something, but didn't?

I'm betting no by your judgmental stone-throwing. People who have been there generally have more empathy. You have contributed nothing, no experience, no insight, just negativity, and poorly-informed negativity at that. So sit down, shut the fuck up, and let people who have been there help each other.

You are crazy as a loon. those comments that you are highlighting still doesn't make OPS friend have a daughter instead of a son. And exactly what is it that you want OP to say? I AM REALLY SORRY ABOUT THE LAHORE THAT YOU LOST, BUT IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THIS PARTICULAR SITUATION IN WHICH A FAMILY IS DOING EVERYTHING THEY POSSIBLY COULD DO WITH THE HELP OF MEDICAL PROFESSIONALS WHICH OP IS NOT SO UNLESS YOU JUST WANT HER TO SAY SOMETHING JUST FOR THE HELL OF SAYING IT THEN YOU AND OP NEED TO TAKE A SEAT SEVERAL SEATs
YOU SOUND CRAZY

How old are you?? take several seats?? Come again you sound 12!

[Anonymous]

This thread is bringing up so many very important and difficult issues. I grew up with mentally ill family members in my home and am dealing with some mental health issues in my own children. I truly understand the devastation.

Unless you have a friend of family member dealing with these problems, it's awfully hard to even fathom what life is like. There are no easy answers. I have been following along and have a just a few reactions:

The younger brother probably feels very sorry for himself and his family (for good reason). The mentally ill family member in my home growing up wreaked havoc on the household. I frequently vented to compassionate mothers of my friends.

What I wanted to hear -- and frequently did hear -- was "Your parents need to do something. He needs to live somewhere else. This is ruining your family. It's not fair to you. You need a normal life." In hindsight, some adults probably truly felt this, and others may have been just trying to make me feel better in response to my many complaints.

I think the right thing for an adult to say to their friend's son is something more like..."Your parents are doing the best they can. It may seem like everyone else your age has a 'normal' family, but you don't know what struggles other families are going through. It's true that it's not fair to you, but coping through the situation will make you stronger. Other kids your age will have different struggles at different times in life. Focus on yourself and your future and don't waste your time thinking about how much better things would be if your brother was living somewhere else."

OP -- whatever you decide to say or not say, your friend is lucky to have you and so is her younger son. It's great that you care enough to consider what input to provide. Families in these sorts of crises tend to become very isolated and lose their friends.

[Anonymous]

OP, with regard to your friend being in "total denial," sometimes being in "total denial" and having relentless optimism when the reality of the situation is much worse, is OK and even healthy. I think that things can be too much to bear and denial is a type self-protection that allows a person to cope.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP, with regard to your friend being in "total denial," sometimes being in "total denial" and having relentless optimism when the reality of the situation is much worse, is OK and even healthy. I think that things can be too much to bear and denial is a type self-protection that allows a person to cope.

+1

And allows them to keep going. This is an endurance race. Trying different medications takes time. A long time. There are side effects that are unpleasant for the person taking them and sometimes for those around them. The treatment itself can have ill effects and involve risks. People relapse. It's extremely complicated. I see your concern and probably everybody wishes they could just wish the young mans illness away. But that's like saying you wish you could be rich. It doesn't work that way. So instead you do the best you can, follow professional advice, or not because that too can sometimes be wrong, uncaring, or manipulative when it comes to psychiatry. You love your child and try to understand them. You do everything to both relieve their suffering and preserve their future. It's a tightrope walk. You worry about the worst outcome and you ride on every Ray of hope. There is a new normal that may be temporary or permanent and that's OK. It's lonely so stick by OP. You're a good friend but know this is really complicated. Your friend is having thousands of thought a day about this. It sounds like as a family they are doing the best they can. One thought is to suggest a brief stint of family counseling for the parents and younger son together to get support and hear each other and find ways to address everybody's needs. Another is to recommend they partake of NAMI support meetings for families of people with mental illness. There may be groups in your area. They can get ideas from others there as well. This is more in line with accepting the situation for what it is instead of trying to magically will it away.

[Anonymous]

I think what a lot of posters are missing is that this is an adult with mental illness that the family is supporting. The Availability and financial possibility of residential treatment means nothing (and it sounds as though finances may be tight) if the person with the mental illness is not willing to seek treatment,

Clients/patients/individuals with mental illness are notoriously non complaint with treatment, and entry into residential programs is no different. Many people who would benefit from residential treatment never agree to go because of the stigma attached with "being committed" and "being crazy"

Look at the pejorative comments in half the threads on DCUM- if someone has a differing opinion, or whatever, they get gas lighted ad "crazy". Now, imagine actually being Crazy, and the stigma attached to that. It doesn't matter that you need help, want help, etc. The label is the punishment, and we need to stop punishing people for being sick.

Aside from that, most people don't realize that the side effects of most psychoactive/ psychiatric drugs are terrible. Imagine going from a state where you feel wonderful and alive, to feeling like someone else is pouring the cream when you make your coffee in the morning. Weight gain, sexual side effects, feeling numb.. All very common effects. It's easy to say "well at least you're not sick", but the mind of someone in a manic state, or depressive state, or any state doesn't always equate to the hell of the meds improving the hell off the illness.

I know, many people will cite chemo therapy here. Yep - you puke your guts out, etc. For the course you're on. But there is a light at the end of the tunnel. And people respect, understand and support your pain. There's runs and media attention to celebrate your pain, You don't get that when you're "crazy". You do it alone. Most psychiatric clients are being told they have to take these meds that make them feel awful FOR THE REST OF THEIR LIVES. Everyone tells them that feeling awful forever is better than them making others feel awful. They feel guilty for their illness and guilty for not wanting to try to get better, but the getting better in the head means feeling worse physically. it doesn't feel like much of a trade off.

Sadly, the story that the OP is describing plays out in many homes every day. Not much can be done until we can change the face of what mental illness is to society at large. Brother can't be helped because there is no way to help him in a system designed to ignore what he needs. There's a high change he would end up homeless or dead if his family turns their back on him (sounds cruel, but that's the reality), but they have to turn their backs on everything else to help him. If he had a different illness, we'd be praising them, having fundraisers and doing whatever we could to make sure he got the treatment he needs. Instead they have to choose between not caring enough for one of their kids. Sad.

[Anonymous]

I bet this family thinks of nothing except how to help their mentally ill son. As someone who Has been through this with a friend, and watched her family try to navigate the mental health system, I can tell you outward appearances are often deceiving. In my friend's case, I heard all the time from people who did not understand "why the family is't trying to do anything." But they were in fact trying very hard. It was all they thought about. It exhausted them. All their time and energy went into trying to get help. They were told they could not commit her involuntarily until she tried to hurt someone. I would guess there's a lot more going on with this family than anyone else can guess.

What you can do for them, OP, is to provide a safe haven for the younger son. Let him come over whenever he wants. Tell him you are there for him if he needs you. Let him talk to you, and really listen to him. Don't try to solve things, just listen. Let him spend the night or eat dinner at your lace sometimes.

[Anonymous]

+1

I don't agree that the parents don't care enough for younger son though. They may be doing the best they can by him too. It's just that they can't make home life less dysfunctional for him right now.

I agree about the meds. Except I'll add that some psychiatric meds make it so you can't think straight, are depressed or anxious, can be habit forming, can require layers of other meds to deal with the new problems, can cause suicidal ideation or aggression, and can kill you. My family member almost died of NMS and is now severely disabled and bedridden in a nursing home. And a family member's life has been hijacked to provide care during the days because a nursing home can't be counted on to provide what anyone would call care. And her spot there isn't even guaranteed because afterall she's mentally ill i.e. second class citizen. We wish we could go back to a time when she "just" had a psychotic disorder.

Every possible "solution" to this young man's problems involves risks. The friend is busting her ass to help her son but also to make sure things don't get *worse* for him and the whole family. And the parents deserve to feel they are doing everything they can and the best they can.

It's heartening to hear so much compassion on this thread regarding mental illness in the family. I think there is beginning to be less stigma.

[Anonymous]

PP was in response to 9:29

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:wow, OP. Her son is not a normal functioning adult, he has medical issues that are complicated. What do you expect her to do? Just ship him off to an institution?

Yes that they have been talking about doing. The sooner he does the more of a chance he has at overcoming this and starting to live a life of semi normalcy. They are not helping anyone by him being put up in his room. At almost 24 he has no skills, no education, no job,etc....it is a fact that the vast majority of young adults who go into intensive residential therapy come out markedly improved. She knows this but as her friend I feel like I should gently encourage her to really start thinking about this as not only an option but something she needs to do. First and foremost for him and then secondly for their family.

OP you say that improved outcomes from residential therapy is a fact. Are you sure? Where did you learn this? Are there studies? And what illnesses do they cover?

You did say they are financially well off. So if they can afford this maybe they will try it at some point. When he's doing better might be the best time for him to learn some skills to move forward.

[Anonymous]

OP how are things going with this situation? Did you have the spa weekend yet?