Jealous of Big Law partner spouses?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I’m jealous of the spouses who married the well-respected partners in humane practice areas who are flush with business and yet are secure in their client relationships. It’s a fine line I never quite figured out in my time in Biglaw, but I know they are out there.

-In-house counsel

Yes. It’s pretty rare, which the smug wives on here don’t seem to want to admit. I know people like this IRL - who refuse to acknowledge that any aspect of their life is less than ideal. I think it’s a pathology.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I am cracking up at all these big laws wives acting like just because their DH is “home for dinner” or “drives to practice” - both of which I have no trouble believing - but leave out the part where their spouse is on the phone either texting or talking almost the entire day with brief pauses. Either you bill a ton of hours or you are so good at business development you don’t need to bill as many hours, but the latter requires a ton of lunches/dinners/evening events/golf, etc. Anyone trying to asset their big law husband basically works fed hours is straight up lying. Also, their spouse has never taken a vacation in their entire career that they didn’t work at least a small part of. Same for paternity leaves. The women have made their peace for their family and for the money, which there is nothing wrong with, but I’m not sure why they need to sugarcoat it.

Big Law Spouse

This, though from my experience Big Law spouses are as competitive and status conscious as their attorney partners, and I think that's why you get these responses that are like "my Big Law partner husband works 50 hours a week, does all the nighttime feedings, and coaches the Little League team, also he makes $2m a year and not only do I not work, I have a nanny and a housekeeper." It's about winning. If the status marker is just money or prestige, it's "my DH makes more than yours and his firm is more impressive." But if it's about family time and relationship quality, it's going to be "my DH is an attentive father and never lets work get in the way of the kids or our relationship." Of course those things are mutually exclusive but if your whole raison d'être in life is to be better than everyone else, admitting the tradeoffs inherent in the choices you've made is not acceptable.

It's exhausting to be around, which is why most of my friends are NOT spouses of Big Law partners.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am cracking up at all these big laws wives acting like just because their DH is “home for dinner” or “drives to practice” - both of which I have no trouble believing - but leave out the part where their spouse is on the phone either texting or talking almost the entire day with brief pauses. Either you bill a ton of hours or you are so good at business development you don’t need to bill as many hours, but the latter requires a ton of lunches/dinners/evening events/golf, etc. Anyone trying to asset their big law husband basically works fed hours is straight up lying. Also, their spouse has never taken a vacation in their entire career that they didn’t work at least a small part of. Same for paternity leaves. The women have made their peace for their family and for the money, which there is nothing wrong with, but I’m not sure why they need to sugarcoat it.

Big Law Spouse

This, though from my experience Big Law spouses are as competitive and status conscious as their attorney partners, and I think that's why you get these responses that are like "my Big Law partner husband works 50 hours a week, does all the nighttime feedings, and coaches the Little League team, also he makes $2m a year and not only do I not work, I have a nanny and a housekeeper." It's about winning. If the status marker is just money or prestige, it's "my DH makes more than yours and his firm is more impressive." But if it's about family time and relationship quality, it's going to be "my DH is an attentive father and never lets work get in the way of the kids or our relationship." Of course those things are mutually exclusive but if your whole raison d'être in life is to be better than everyone else, admitting the tradeoffs inherent in the choices you've made is not acceptable.

It's exhausting to be around, which is why most of my friends are NOT spouses of Big Law partners.

Agree. And I know exactly the people you are talking about. But my DH also knows the husbands in real life and the reality of these men’s work situations.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:How much money does a typical Biglaw partner in a top 10 or 20 law firm in DC bring home in a month? I keep asking and nobody tells me. Am I right that it’s like $200,000 a month?

It doesn't work that way. Assuming you are just looking at equity partners (many firms have non-equity partners who are paid more like associates or counsel), it varies dramatically by firm. In the top 20 AmLaw firms, profits per equity partner can range from 1.1m to 7.1m. Per partner draw will loosely track this, but firms have a variety of ways for determining partner compensation, and at a given firm the actually annual draw could be well above or below that depending on whether the partner is a major rainmaker, very senior or junior, etc. Most firms have a compensation committee that makes these determinations and it's one of the most political processes at a law firm.

And then, of course, law firm profits can vary at these firms as well, and that will impact annual draw. Add to that that many firms issue draws on a quarterly basis, instead of monthly. Also, new partners must purchase their equity in the firm and that will impact your draw as well. So the "typical" monthly income of a BigLaw partner in DC can vary quite a bit. If you asked me what I think the annual income of a certain kind of partner at a specific firm was, I could probably ballpark it for you. But I can't tell you what the typical salary is for partners across a pretty wide range of firms without knowing anything about that partner or the firm they are with. The range would be huge.

I’m at the DC office of NY biglaw. I make about $4m (and should make in the $4m-$5m range for the next 3-5 years). I get a monthly draw of about $40k, and quarterly distributions to cover estimated taxes. Then profit distribs when the firm has the cash to pay them. So it’s not like a fixed salary per month (except for the monthly draw). The biggest months are Nov and Dec. In total I clear about 50% of the gross (so $2m), after retirement plan contributions. So averaged out that’s like $167,000 per month net.

And I work a lot. 60 hours per week, every week, between billables, client development, admin, travel. When I’m not working I’m spending time with kids and wife. I make almost all BTS, weekend sports, most weekday sports, but I have NO PERSONAL HOBBIES or free time. But that’s the choice I made.

I’m 50 and a set to retire at 54 with about $15m. College is paid for (3 kids, oldest is 16). Mortgage on primary home. One investment property.

Does your spouse work? What's the divorce rate among your peers?

Spouse works FT. She's a rockstar and handles 90% of the logistics. I plan vacations, go grocery shopping on weekends, take oeldest child to college visits, and do the things I mentioned above. Maybe one weekday night out per 3 weeks (I work once the kids are down for the night). It is hard, but my wife and I are driven and don't believe in idle time. We also grew up LMC and don't see the point in/don't have the luxury to relax. We'll do that eventually. Our kids see the value and benefits of hard work, and accept that I have to squeeze in calls so that I can make their games, drop them off, etc. Eldest was talking to a friend once when I was on a call in the car, and said something like "yes, he has to take calls, but he's always around. Other parents can only take vacation at certain times or can't drop off at practice. My dad can be more flexible like that."

DK about divorce rate at my firm, and don't care. Life is a canvas, so I don't live by other people's rules (but I am not a jerk either). When partners at my firm retire, we somethimes have a dinner for them and their families come. 100% of the retired partners apologize for missing time with their families. No thanks.

Your kid has no way of knowing that and it’s very obvious that if he actually said that - which is probably fictional - he’s simply parroting what you’ve told him to make you both feel better.

It happened. Live with it.

I don’t doubt that it happened. But we all know where it came from.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am sure this is at least in part due to the stress of the job, tight deadlines and heavy workload but the biglaw partners I've met don't seem like pleasant people that I would want to be married too or have children with. I'm sure some of it is also the type A personality needed to make partner in biglaw.

You are right. Workload is not heavy though. Appearances are.

All about appearances.

What are you going on about? Big law senior partners pull in the big clients, they do not eff around. The firm is not just there handing out money to anyone. That is not how it works. Why don't you understand this OP?

Lol what are YOU going on about? I work there and taking the VPs and lobbyists out for dinner to “pull them in” - as you say - is LONG work, but not “heavy.” Building relationships is not difficult work; it’s just time-consuming. The actual filing work and lawyering is no longer what we do. The associates do that.

NP. Building relationships and sales is the hardest job there is, in any industry. This is why the vast majority of people can't make it at those levels. Sure there are some niches, where the work from one client flows for years and all you have to do is schmooze and maintain, but in most cases you have to source and close. Tough work.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I am cracking up at all these big laws wives acting like just because their DH is “home for dinner” or “drives to practice” - both of which I have no trouble believing - but leave out the part where their spouse is on the phone either texting or talking almost the entire day with brief pauses. Either you bill a ton of hours or you are so good at business development you don’t need to bill as many hours, but the latter requires a ton of lunches/dinners/evening events/golf, etc. Anyone trying to asset their big law husband basically works fed hours is straight up lying. Also, their spouse has never taken a vacation in their entire career that they didn’t work at least a small part of. Same for paternity leaves. The women have made their peace for their family and for the money, which there is nothing wrong with, but I’m not sure why they need to sugarcoat it.

Big Law Spouse

I don’t know exactly what the life of an average fed is like. My BF from college left her law firm to be a fed and she says she works nearly as much as she did at her firm. But, she enjoys her work more and has a lot of seniority.

I also don’t know exactly what the life of an “average” law firm partner is like, but I do know about my DH and several of our friends (both men and women who are partners). They work hard, yes, and certainly take a few calls on a week long vacation. But they aren’t absent, at all. I know the reputation of some firms can be pretty bad, so I believe that the absent law partner spouse is a thing. It’s just not the ONLY way to be a law partner. There are plenty of partners who have balance.

[Anonymous]

The crazy people here are not the spouses (and must we always call them wives? Women are partners at law firms, too) of law partners, but those who are claiming to know “the truth” about STRANGERS’ experiences. Like, really? You think your personal experience means you know everything? It seems to be the spouses saying their family lives are balanced are not claiming to know what EVERYONE experiences, they are just sharing their own experience.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The crazy people here are not the spouses (and must we always call them wives? Women are partners at law firms, too) of law partners, but those who are claiming to know “the truth” about STRANGERS’ experiences. Like, really? You think your personal experience means you know everything? It seems to be the spouses saying their family lives are balanced are not claiming to know what EVERYONE experiences, they are just sharing their own experience.

No one knows anyone else life in detail, but the defensiveness here. Sheesh.

Yes, of course there are women who are partners. How many of them have SAH partners? Some, more than there used to be. But still a minority.

And if you live in this world, you do know certain truths. Are there some Big Law partners with great work-life balance who are very successful AND extremely present at home. Sure! About the same number as there are Big Law partners who are women with husbands who stay home with their kids and maintain their house and plan their vacations and social schedule without resentment.

You don't need to know everything about everyone in order to understand the broad strokes of what is typical. If you are part of the Big Law universe, you know the drill, to some extent, and you know what is common and what is not.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m not sure I’d want to be a big law partner, which sounds pretty stressful. But being the spouse of one sounds sweet. It’s a lot of money, right? Or are the reports exaggerated?

Materialism and envy are a bad look.

+1

This is the source of so many problems and discontent.

For those who choose these fields, materialism is often the primary motivation.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m jealous of the spouses who married the well-respected partners in humane practice areas who are flush with business and yet are secure in their client relationships. It’s a fine line I never quite figured out in my time in Biglaw, but I know they are out there.

-In-house counsel

This rings true. It is great to hear about several partners who have it all figured out and are working only 50 hours per week. Those people just are not the general rule though, which those partners would probably quickly tell you, especially when including junior partners in the equation.

I work on the business side at a major firm and part of that story may also be enormous resentment from other partners, who will argue that a partner who is not billing a lot, delegating most of the heavy lifting to associates and junior partners, but then claiming origination credit on the client because they brought them in 10 years ago, is dead weight and should be sharing origination credit with the partners actually doing the work, or even transitioning the client.

This is a huge fight at many firms. There is no firm where ALL equity partners are working 50 hours a week (and billing far less since partners have more administrative tasks that take up time). So you have major inequities in hours and that tends to come up when it's time for the Comp Committee to figure out everyone's draw.

It all comes to a head eventually. There are way too many peers and underlings vying for your slice. 2 missed dinners and you are in the questionable list. The only ones who seem to have it made are older rainmakers, and they are exceedingly rare.

[Anonymous]

40 year old EP, DC office of large global firm. Should make about $1.5MM this year and wife hasn’t worked for about 5 years. She takes care of the kids, manages doctors, groceries, housekeeper, and pretty much everything else in our lives. Overall seems to like it, but she would never expect that anyone else would be jealous of that. It’s not like we have enough money to be living a different lifestyle from most in the DMV suburbs.

Only point I wanted to make on this: those who think every biglaw partner is working night and day have no idea what you’re talking about. I bill around 1400 hours per year, have maybe 2000-2100 all in. That’s nothing, basically 40 hours a week. Plenty of colleagues do the same. I almost never work weekends other than maybe an hour of prep and admin Sunday afternoon. Have never missed a vacation, and rarely do more than 3-4 hours of work/calls per trip. I mostly work from home, drive one kid to school every day, cook dinner a lot, have coached multiple teams, and we go camping and hiking as a family all the time. Honestly couldn’t be happier with the balance we’ve got.

Now, I’m never going to be a $5MM-$10MM take home guy. Those folks do tend to work a LOT more, or else they’re either really good at BD or fell ass backwards into a book. But I should be able to run this out in the $1.5-$2.5 range for 20+ years if I wanted to. (I don’t, but nice to know it’s an option.)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m not sure I’d want to be a big law partner, which sounds pretty stressful. But being the spouse of one sounds sweet. It’s a lot of money, right? Or are the reports exaggerated?

Materialism and envy are a bad look.

+1

This is the source of so many problems and discontent.

For those who choose these fields, materialism is often the primary motivation.

+1, few people go into Big Law, much less stick it out until partnership, if they are not motivated by money and material comfort. It doesn't mean it's all they care about, but it's always a huge piece. There may be a very small number of practitioners who are truly motivated by the work, but they work in extremely narrow and rare specialties like a Supreme Court practice or some narrow IP practices that only exist in Big Law but are especially interesting and inherently rewarding.

Your average Big Law attorney doing standard fare transactions or litigation has a stressful job that requires a lot of hours, but pays very well. The money is the primary motivating factor.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:40 year old EP, DC office of large global firm. Should make about $1.5MM this year and wife hasn’t worked for about 5 years. She takes care of the kids, manages doctors, groceries, housekeeper, and pretty much everything else in our lives. Overall seems to like it, but she would never expect that anyone else would be jealous of that. It’s not like we have enough money to be living a different lifestyle from most in the DMV suburbs.

Only point I wanted to make on this: those who think every biglaw partner is working night and day have no idea what you’re talking about. I bill around 1400 hours per year, have maybe 2000-2100 all in. That’s nothing, basically 40 hours a week. Plenty of colleagues do the same. I almost never work weekends other than maybe an hour of prep and admin Sunday afternoon. Have never missed a vacation, and rarely do more than 3-4 hours of work/calls per trip. I mostly work from home, drive one kid to school every day, cook dinner a lot, have coached multiple teams, and we go camping and hiking as a family all the time. Honestly couldn’t be happier with the balance we’ve got.

Now, I’m never going to be a $5MM-$10MM take home guy. Those folks do tend to work a LOT more, or else they’re either really good at BD or fell ass backwards into a book. But I should be able to run this out in the $1.5-$2.5 range for 20+ years if I wanted to. (I don’t, but nice to know it’s an option.)

You had me until you had the audacity to suggest that $1.5 million a year isn’t “enough money to be living a different lifestyle than most in the DMV suburbs.” You are completely out of touch.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m jealous of the spouses who married the well-respected partners in humane practice areas who are flush with business and yet are secure in their client relationships. It’s a fine line I never quite figured out in my time in Biglaw, but I know they are out there.

-In-house counsel

This rings true. It is great to hear about several partners who have it all figured out and are working only 50 hours per week. Those people just are not the general rule though, which those partners would probably quickly tell you, especially when including junior partners in the equation.

I work on the business side at a major firm and part of that story may also be enormous resentment from other partners, who will argue that a partner who is not billing a lot, delegating most of the heavy lifting to associates and junior partners, but then claiming origination credit on the client because they brought them in 10 years ago, is dead weight and should be sharing origination credit with the partners actually doing the work, or even transitioning the client.

This is a huge fight at many firms. There is no firm where ALL equity partners are working 50 hours a week (and billing far less since partners have more administrative tasks that take up time). So you have major inequities in hours and that tends to come up when it's time for the Comp Committee to figure out everyone's draw.

This is very true. I’ve been a partner at firms like this, it’s sort of miserable. Just a never ending negative feedback loop. Who’s getting more than you? Who deserves what? That guy doesn’t work hard. Blah blah.

I’m now at a lockstep firm and it is staggering how much better the environment is. It’s as close as you can get to the “everyone working 50 hours” mentality. There’s almost no incentive to horde credit, act as a bottleneck with clients, all the crap that comes with most firm comp structures. You do your work, you go home, you get paid like everyone else.

True, you leave a little money on the table, but not being surrounded by Dbags relentlessly focused on their own comp in every interaction has honestly saved my career.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:40 year old EP, DC office of large global firm. Should make about $1.5MM this year and wife hasn’t worked for about 5 years. She takes care of the kids, manages doctors, groceries, housekeeper, and pretty much everything else in our lives. Overall seems to like it, but she would never expect that anyone else would be jealous of that. It’s not like we have enough money to be living a different lifestyle from most in the DMV suburbs.

Only point I wanted to make on this: those who think every biglaw partner is working night and day have no idea what you’re talking about. I bill around 1400 hours per year, have maybe 2000-2100 all in. That’s nothing, basically 40 hours a week. Plenty of colleagues do the same. I almost never work weekends other than maybe an hour of prep and admin Sunday afternoon. Have never missed a vacation, and rarely do more than 3-4 hours of work/calls per trip. I mostly work from home, drive one kid to school every day, cook dinner a lot, have coached multiple teams, and we go camping and hiking as a family all the time. Honestly couldn’t be happier with the balance we’ve got.

Now, I’m never going to be a $5MM-$10MM take home guy. Those folks do tend to work a LOT more, or else they’re either really good at BD or fell ass backwards into a book. But I should be able to run this out in the $1.5-$2.5 range for 20+ years if I wanted to. (I don’t, but nice to know it’s an option.)

You are on the chopping block if you are billing 1400 hours and taking in $1.5M. Bad economics for the firm.