My sister is marrying a non-Jew. Help?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
I think that the majority consensus on this thread is that people are disgusted at OP's feelings and behavior towards her own sister. So, they are not feeling superior. They just cannot fathom that one could do this to her own sister.

I am not going to go through every comment in 6 pages, but plenty have clearly expressed their superiority to the OP ("your sister is better off avoiding you" that sort of thing) I also have difficulty with people saying "I am disgusted with you, but I do not feel superior to you" And I see little understanding of OP's feelings or behavior - because people do not understand what following halacha means to an Orthodox Jew (of course in the USA we also don't understand what following sharia means to an observant muslim, to the point that right wing politicians abuse that for votes)

If OP wants to follow Halacha, go ahead. Don't dictate how others should live or practice Judaism.

The issue is that there is not one clear answer here. Clearly, OP has her choice of religious advisors to determine whether she may go. The issue is she seems to be inclined to seek out the advice that she is halachically justified in boycotting the wedding. She wants to make her OWN point for her own superiority, and is purposefully seeking out advice that allows her to do so. I have a very hard time believing there is a unified hard-line interpretation of Orthodox rules that would forbid her from attending her sister's wedding.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:(sympathetic C Jew again) To note the kids will be halachically Jewish (lets leave off with the "culturally Jewish" BS - the kids won't be speaking Yiddish, vaguely aware of Judaism is not "culturally Jewish") and at some point may have curiosity about Judaism. If you, OP, are involved in their lives, and can model a happy successful O life, they may be drawn either to O, or at least to some more Torah focused life.

I would also suggest you talk with an Orthodox rabbi familiar with the situation among non O in America (IE a mainstream modern O rabbi, esp one familiar with BT issues) Not sure a rabbi in Israel would be a good source on the sociology, even if you follow them on halacha.

So the kids are only worth being involved with if they are "halachically" Jewish through the mother? Such bullsh*t reasoning is why the numbers of Jews will decrease in the U.S. My son is not "halachically" Jewish because I (the mom) am not, but I make a lot of effort to educate him and expose him to the faith. If what you're intending is to alienate Jews and decrease your numbers, good job.

Good for you. However halachically Jewish kids will find an easier path to traditional Judaism, especially given that in this case the Jewish parent is an atheist so they will not be educated as Jews.

And that matters, why? Being obsessed with the gender of the Jewish parent only makes the child less likely to find their way to traditional Judaism, because it's so arbitrary. The only reason the path is easier for the halachically Jewish kid is because you discriminated against the non-halachic kid based solely on the gender of the Jewish parent.

You are correct. Interfaith marriages are the reason that Reform Judaism is dying out. While I think the OP is wrong if she doesn’t attend her sidter’s wedding, statistics show that there is a significant chance that her future nieces and nephews will not raise Jewish children.

True. I think that's the result of both a decline in religiosity writ large and the inflexibility of some strands of Judaism regarding the genetic aspect of being Jewish. It's a self-defeating thing, of course.

I was raised Reform and DH was raised Conservative. We plan to send DD to Hebrew school and have her go through her Bat Mitzvah, so she can learn about her family history and make an informed decision about what to do as an adult. FWIW, most of the Jews I know with young children plan to do that and these are those non-practicing cultural Jews a PP hates.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
I think that the majority consensus on this thread is that people are disgusted at OP's feelings and behavior towards her own sister. So, they are not feeling superior. They just cannot fathom that one could do this to her own sister.

I am not going to go through every comment in 6 pages, but plenty have clearly expressed their superiority to the OP ("your sister is better off avoiding you" that sort of thing) I also have difficulty with people saying "I am disgusted with you, but I do not feel superior to you" And I see little understanding of OP's feelings or behavior - because people do not understand what following halacha means to an Orthodox Jew (of course in the USA we also don't understand what following sharia means to an observant muslim, to the point that right wing politicians abuse that for votes)

If OP wants to follow Halacha, go ahead. Don't dictate how others should live or practice Judaism.

The issue is that there is not one clear answer here. Clearly, OP has her choice of religious advisors to determine whether she may go. The issue is she seems to be inclined to seek out the advice that she is halachically justified in boycotting the wedding. She wants to make her OWN point for her own superiority, and is purposefully seeking out advice that allows her to do so. I have a very hard time believing there is a unified hard-line interpretation of Orthodox rules that would forbid her from attending her sister's wedding.

I'm not aware of any rules that would prevent her from going, unless the wedding is on Shabbat or another holiday.

[Anonymous]

My orthodox cousins (one is a rabbi) came to my church wedding. Get over yourself OP

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:(sympathetic C Jew again) To note the kids will be halachically Jewish (lets leave off with the "culturally Jewish" BS - the kids won't be speaking Yiddish, vaguely aware of Judaism is not "culturally Jewish") and at some point may have curiosity about Judaism. If you, OP, are involved in their lives, and can model a happy successful O life, they may be drawn either to O, or at least to some more Torah focused life.

I would also suggest you talk with an Orthodox rabbi familiar with the situation among non O in America (IE a mainstream modern O rabbi, esp one familiar with BT issues) Not sure a rabbi in Israel would be a good source on the sociology, even if you follow them on halacha.

So the kids are only worth being involved with if they are "halachically" Jewish through the mother? Such bullsh*t reasoning is why the numbers of Jews will decrease in the U.S. My son is not "halachically" Jewish because I (the mom) am not, but I make a lot of effort to educate him and expose him to the faith. If what you're intending is to alienate Jews and decrease your numbers, good job.

Good for you. However halachically Jewish kids will find an easier path to traditional Judaism, especially given that in this case the Jewish parent is an atheist so they will not be educated as Jews.

And that matters, why? Being obsessed with the gender of the Jewish parent only makes the child less likely to find their way to traditional Judaism, because it's so arbitrary. The only reason the path is easier for the halachically Jewish kid is because you discriminated against the non-halachic kid based solely on the gender of the Jewish parent.

You are correct. Interfaith marriages are the reason that Reform Judaism is dying out. While I think the OP is wrong if she doesn’t attend her sidter’s wedding, statistics show that there is a significant chance that her future nieces and nephews will not raise Jewish children.

You're ignoring the point: if Jewish congregations (of all types) were more welcoming to intermarriage and half-Jewish children, then numbers would grow.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Grow up? Suck it up? And go to the wedding

This. Would you go to your Muslim or Christian or Buddhist friends’ weddings? Go to your sister’s wedding if you ever want to speak to her again!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
I think that the majority consensus on this thread is that people are disgusted at OP's feelings and behavior towards her own sister. So, they are not feeling superior. They just cannot fathom that one could do this to her own sister.

I am not going to go through every comment in 6 pages, but plenty have clearly expressed their superiority to the OP ("your sister is better off avoiding you" that sort of thing) I also have difficulty with people saying "I am disgusted with you, but I do not feel superior to you" And I see little understanding of OP's feelings or behavior - because people do not understand what following halacha means to an Orthodox Jew (of course in the USA we also don't understand what following sharia means to an observant muslim, to the point that right wing politicians abuse that for votes)

If OP wants to follow Halacha, go ahead. Don't dictate how others should live or practice Judaism.

The issue is that there is not one clear answer here. Clearly, OP has her choice of religious advisors to determine whether she may go. The issue is she seems to be inclined to seek out the advice that she is halachically justified in boycotting the wedding. She wants to make her OWN point for her own superiority, and is purposefully seeking out advice that allows her to do so. I have a very hard time believing there is a unified hard-line interpretation of Orthodox rules that would forbid her from attending her sister's wedding.

I'm not aware of any rules that would prevent her from going, unless the wedding is on Shabbat or another holiday.

Right. She's not trying to find out if there's any rule that prevents her from going, but rather if she can get extra points and justify her not going.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:(sympathetic C Jew again) To note the kids will be halachically Jewish (lets leave off with the "culturally Jewish" BS - the kids won't be speaking Yiddish, vaguely aware of Judaism is not "culturally Jewish") and at some point may have curiosity about Judaism. If you, OP, are involved in their lives, and can model a happy successful O life, they may be drawn either to O, or at least to some more Torah focused life.

I would also suggest you talk with an Orthodox rabbi familiar with the situation among non O in America (IE a mainstream modern O rabbi, esp one familiar with BT issues) Not sure a rabbi in Israel would be a good source on the sociology, even if you follow them on halacha.

So the kids are only worth being involved with if they are "halachically" Jewish through the mother? Such bullsh*t reasoning is why the numbers of Jews will decrease in the U.S. My son is not "halachically" Jewish because I (the mom) am not, but I make a lot of effort to educate him and expose him to the faith. If what you're intending is to alienate Jews and decrease your numbers, good job.

Good for you. However halachically Jewish kids will find an easier path to traditional Judaism, especially given that in this case the Jewish parent is an atheist so they will not be educated as Jews.

And that matters, why? Being obsessed with the gender of the Jewish parent only makes the child less likely to find their way to traditional Judaism, because it's so arbitrary. The only reason the path is easier for the halachically Jewish kid is because you discriminated against the non-halachic kid based solely on the gender of the Jewish parent.

You are correct. Interfaith marriages are the reason that Reform Judaism is dying out. While I think the OP is wrong if she doesn’t attend her sidter’s wedding, statistics show that there is a significant chance that her future nieces and nephews will not raise Jewish children.

I think high membership dues / payment for high holiday services turns people away but we can agree to disagree.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:(sympathetic C Jew again) To note the kids will be halachically Jewish (lets leave off with the "culturally Jewish" BS - the kids won't be speaking Yiddish, vaguely aware of Judaism is not "culturally Jewish") and at some point may have curiosity about Judaism. If you, OP, are involved in their lives, and can model a happy successful O life, they may be drawn either to O, or at least to some more Torah focused life.

I would also suggest you talk with an Orthodox rabbi familiar with the situation among non O in America (IE a mainstream modern O rabbi, esp one familiar with BT issues) Not sure a rabbi in Israel would be a good source on the sociology, even if you follow them on halacha.

So the kids are only worth being involved with if they are "halachically" Jewish through the mother? Such bullsh*t reasoning is why the numbers of Jews will decrease in the U.S. My son is not "halachically" Jewish because I (the mom) am not, but I make a lot of effort to educate him and expose him to the faith. If what you're intending is to alienate Jews and decrease your numbers, good job.

Good for you. However halachically Jewish kids will find an easier path to traditional Judaism, especially given that in this case the Jewish parent is an atheist so they will not be educated as Jews.

And that matters, why? Being obsessed with the gender of the Jewish parent only makes the child less likely to find their way to traditional Judaism, because it's so arbitrary. The only reason the path is easier for the halachically Jewish kid is because you discriminated against the non-halachic kid based solely on the gender of the Jewish parent.

You are correct. Interfaith marriages are the reason that Reform Judaism is dying out. While I think the OP is wrong if she doesn’t attend her sidter’s wedding, statistics show that there is a significant chance that her future nieces and nephews will not raise Jewish children.

OP clearly says her sister is an atheist, so I doubt she would be raising religiously Jewish children under any circumstances, even if she was marrying another atheist with a Jewish background. Skipping the wedding is going to be interpreted as spite, but it's OPs prerogative to do so if she wants.

[Anonymous]

I agree, talk to an orthodox rabbi dealing with many BTs who is familiar with america.

FWIW, I sympathize with you, OP. I think many people reading this don't understand the cultural milieu of modern Judaism.
For me personally, I would attend the wedding based on the following touchpoints:
* Shalom Bayit and the importance of Family
* an understanding that if your sister considers herself an atheist, then the religion part sort of doesn't matter. yes, she may technically be jewish, but she is rejecting it. If she had made the decision to convert formally to a different religion and get married in a church/mosque etc., would you go? I would not be happy but would theoretically go. Frankly, i have a much bigger issue with a wedding that has a rabbi and a minister than a wedding that is set up like a civil ceremony with a justice of peace (or a universal life/internet certification officiant), which is along the lines of what I would assume an atheist would have.
* you wrote "throwing away the potential happiness that comes with having a Jewish family. " There are a LOT of people who find their way back to relgion/religious practice as adults, OP. you have no idea what your theoretically nieces/nephews will do/discover in X years anyway. I think you need to recognize, even in writing this, that you are in the midst of your own religious journey. As some mussar, think about the parallels about how your own parents are perceiving your decision to be a BT and how it is a rejection of what they taught you.
* If you want a relationship, figure out how to be there.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I agree, talk to an orthodox rabbi dealing with many BTs who is familiar with america.

FWIW, I sympathize with you, OP. I think many people reading this don't understand the cultural milieu of modern Judaism.
For me personally, I would attend the wedding based on the following touchpoints:
* Shalom Bayit and the importance of Family
* an understanding that if your sister considers herself an atheist, then the religion part sort of doesn't matter. yes, she may technically be jewish, but she is rejecting it. If she had made the decision to convert formally to a different religion and get married in a church/mosque etc., would you go? I would not be happy but would theoretically go. Frankly, i have a much bigger issue with a wedding that has a rabbi and a minister than a wedding that is set up like a civil ceremony with a justice of peace (or a universal life/internet certification officiant), which is along the lines of what I would assume an atheist would have.
* you wrote "throwing away the potential happiness that comes with having a Jewish family. " There are a LOT of people who find their way back to relgion/religious practice as adults, OP. you have no idea what your theoretically nieces/nephews will do/discover in X years anyway. I think you need to recognize, even in writing this, that you are in the midst of your own religious journey. As some mussar, think about the parallels about how your own parents are perceiving your decision to be a BT and how it is a rejection of what they taught you.
* If you want a relationship, figure out how to be there.

Interesting how you placed relationship with the sister as the last point. It still baffles me that some people place everything under this sun over love and family.

[Anonymous]

I grew up with a Jewish father and a Catholic mother. I felt like I could never “break in” due to the arbitrary nature and exclusionary culture of the religion to which PPs have referred.

I think you need to work on being more understanding and inclusive. If you want to help model Judaism for your sister’s future kids, that’s great, but having this level of moral strife over attending her own wedding? If this is how it is, then I’m really glad I never pursued Judaism beyond a surface level.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:(sympathetic C Jew again) To note the kids will be halachically Jewish (lets leave off with the "culturally Jewish" BS - the kids won't be speaking Yiddish, vaguely aware of Judaism is not "culturally Jewish") and at some point may have curiosity about Judaism. If you, OP, are involved in their lives, and can model a happy successful O life, they may be drawn either to O, or at least to some more Torah focused life.

I would also suggest you talk with an Orthodox rabbi familiar with the situation among non O in America (IE a mainstream modern O rabbi, esp one familiar with BT issues) Not sure a rabbi in Israel would be a good source on the sociology, even if you follow them on halacha.

So the kids are only worth being involved with if they are "halachically" Jewish through the mother? Such bullsh*t reasoning is why the numbers of Jews will decrease in the U.S. My son is not "halachically" Jewish because I (the mom) am not, but I make a lot of effort to educate him and expose him to the faith. If what you're intending is to alienate Jews and decrease your numbers, good job.

Good for you. However halachically Jewish kids will find an easier path to traditional Judaism, especially given that in this case the Jewish parent is an atheist so they will not be educated as Jews.

And that matters, why? Being obsessed with the gender of the Jewish parent only makes the child less likely to find their way to traditional Judaism, because it's so arbitrary. The only reason the path is easier for the halachically Jewish kid is because you discriminated against the non-halachic kid based solely on the gender of the Jewish parent.

You are correct. Interfaith marriages are the reason that Reform Judaism is dying out. While I think the OP is wrong if she doesn’t attend her sidter’s wedding, statistics show that there is a significant chance that her future nieces and nephews will not raise Jewish children.

You're ignoring the point: if Jewish congregations (of all types) were more welcoming to intermarriage and half-Jewish children, then numbers would grow.

Judaism is about bloodlines
Purity of the bloodlines is more important

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:(sympathetic C Jew again) To note the kids will be halachically Jewish (lets leave off with the "culturally Jewish" BS - the kids won't be speaking Yiddish, vaguely aware of Judaism is not "culturally Jewish") and at some point may have curiosity about Judaism. If you, OP, are involved in their lives, and can model a happy successful O life, they may be drawn either to O, or at least to some more Torah focused life.

I would also suggest you talk with an Orthodox rabbi familiar with the situation among non O in America (IE a mainstream modern O rabbi, esp one familiar with BT issues) Not sure a rabbi in Israel would be a good source on the sociology, even if you follow them on halacha.

So the kids are only worth being involved with if they are "halachically" Jewish through the mother? Such bullsh*t reasoning is why the numbers of Jews will decrease in the U.S. My son is not "halachically" Jewish because I (the mom) am not, but I make a lot of effort to educate him and expose him to the faith. If what you're intending is to alienate Jews and decrease your numbers, good job.

Good for you. However halachically Jewish kids will find an easier path to traditional Judaism, especially given that in this case the Jewish parent is an atheist so they will not be educated as Jews.

And that matters, why? Being obsessed with the gender of the Jewish parent only makes the child less likely to find their way to traditional Judaism, because it's so arbitrary. The only reason the path is easier for the halachically Jewish kid is because you discriminated against the non-halachic kid based solely on the gender of the Jewish parent.

You are correct. Interfaith marriages are the reason that Reform Judaism is dying out. While I think the OP is wrong if she doesn’t attend her sidter’s wedding, statistics show that there is a significant chance that her future nieces and nephews will not raise Jewish children.

You're ignoring the point: if Jewish congregations (of all types) were more welcoming to intermarriage and half-Jewish children, then numbers would grow.

Judaism is about bloodlines
Purity of the bloodlines is more important

It's partially about bloodlines. Most Reform and some Conservative rabbis think you can be Jewish from a familial standpoint with a Jewish father and non-Jewish mother. The rabbi at my college (Reform) said he considers anyone who went through their Bar/Bat Mitzvah to also be Jewish, even if they have no Jewish family members.

[Anonymous]

Judaism is about bloodlines
Purity of the bloodlines is more important


Sound a whole lot like the certain dictatorships of the past.