My sister is marrying a non-Jew. Help?

[Anonymous]

OP— Think about what you want in your life. Do you want a sister and nieces and nephews? If the answer is yes, then go. I personally think religion of any type is the root of all evil in this world. They are all created by MEN. They are all discriminatory towards women. I get the need to believe in something. It gives people purpose and hope. However, OP’s question is a case in point why religion is evil and divisive. The fact that she even asks this question is quite sickening, in my opinion. Why do you need a MAN to tell you how to follow laws made up by other MEN?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
I think that the majority consensus on this thread is that people are disgusted at OP's feelings and behavior towards her own sister. So, they are not feeling superior. They just cannot fathom that one could do this to her own sister.

I am not going to go through every comment in 6 pages, but plenty have clearly expressed their superiority to the OP ("your sister is better off avoiding you" that sort of thing) I also have difficulty with people saying "I am disgusted with you, but I do not feel superior to you" And I see little understanding of OP's feelings or behavior - because people do not understand what following halacha means to an Orthodox Jew (of course in the USA we also don't understand what following sharia means to an observant muslim, to the point that right wing politicians abuse that for votes)

If OP wants to follow Halacha, go ahead. Don't dictate how others should live or practice Judaism.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
I think that the majority consensus on this thread is that people are disgusted at OP's feelings and behavior towards her own sister. So, they are not feeling superior. They just cannot fathom that one could do this to her own sister.

I am not going to go through every comment in 6 pages, but plenty have clearly expressed their superiority to the OP ("your sister is better off avoiding you" that sort of thing) I also have difficulty with people saying "I am disgusted with you, but I do not feel superior to you" And I see little understanding of OP's feelings or behavior - because people do not understand what following halacha means to an Orthodox Jew (of course in the USA we also don't understand what following sharia means to an observant muslim, to the point that right wing politicians abuse that for votes)

Some of us understand. What we cannot understand is that ANY type of religious doctrine would make you belittle your own sister's choices. If that's the case you should question yourself as to why you agree.

People make choices. Some choices are wrong. I am sure you can imagine choices a close relation would make that you consider fundamentally wrong. Maybe you can't. But I would hope you can understand that others would disagree.

And no, I don't think many here understand Orthodox Judaism, or the meaning of halacha within it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP— Think about what you want in your life. Do you want a sister and nieces and nephews? If the answer is yes, then go. I personally think religion of any type is the root of all evil in this world. They are all created by MEN. They are all discriminatory towards women. I get the need to believe in something. It gives people purpose and hope. However, OP’s question is a case in point why religion is evil and divisive. The fact that she even asks this question is quite sickening, in my opinion. Why do you need a MAN to tell you how to follow laws made up by other MEN?

Not all religions were created by men or run by men. You need to do more research before painting with such broad strokes.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Hey everyone. So, my sister and I were raised reform, but I got into orthodoxy in college, while she went the other way and dropped it. She's been dating a guy for a while and they got engaged. While my sister and I have a close relationship, I still have qualms about this. Obviously, I want her to be happy, but I'm disappointed at her violation of halacha and throwing away the potential happiness that comes with having a Jewish family.

While it is understandable that she would marry a non-Jew given that she has no connection, I still am not really behind it. The biggest issue (logistically at least) is if I should go to the wedding. I'll need to come back from yeshiva in Israel, to attend an intermarriage wedding, which doesn't seem right to me. It most likely wouldn't be in a church or reform shul, so no problem with that. The problem is my idealogical stance of coming or not.

Obviously, the expected thing (from my family and sister) is that I come and support her. The straightforward halachic thing would be to not go, so as to not show support for intermarriage. However, doing this would cause problems with my sister, and maybe with the rest of my family (which I don't think is worth the one awkward weekend).

tl;dr I am a BT, sister is an atheist. Sister getting married to non-Jew. Should I go to the wedding?

(Disclaimer: I plan to talk to my FLORAs for guidance, but am interested in the perspective of everyone here)

It's not intermarriage, she's atheist you said so yourself above. You're being obnoxious, a brat, and entitled. If I were her, I wouldn't want you there.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
I think that the majority consensus on this thread is that people are disgusted at OP's feelings and behavior towards her own sister. So, they are not feeling superior. They just cannot fathom that one could do this to her own sister.

I am not going to go through every comment in 6 pages, but plenty have clearly expressed their superiority to the OP ("your sister is better off avoiding you" that sort of thing) I also have difficulty with people saying "I am disgusted with you, but I do not feel superior to you" And I see little understanding of OP's feelings or behavior - because people do not understand what following halacha means to an Orthodox Jew (of course in the USA we also don't understand what following sharia means to an observant muslim, to the point that right wing politicians abuse that for votes)

Some of us understand. What we cannot understand is that ANY type of religious doctrine would make you belittle your own sister's choices. If that's the case you should question yourself as to why you agree.

People make choices. Some choices are wrong. I am sure you can imagine choices a close relation would make that you consider fundamentally wrong. Maybe you can't. But I would hope you can understand that others would disagree.

And no, I don't think many here understand Orthodox Judaism, or the meaning of halacha within it.

I agree with you to extent. However, if a particular doctrine causes pain to others perhaps you should question it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP— Think about what you want in your life. Do you want a sister and nieces and nephews? If the answer is yes, then go. I personally think religion of any type is the root of all evil in this world. They are all created by MEN. They are all discriminatory towards women. I get the need to believe in something. It gives people purpose and hope. However, OP’s question is a case in point why religion is evil and divisive. The fact that she even asks this question is quite sickening, in my opinion. Why do you need a MAN to tell you how to follow laws made up by other MEN?

(symp C Jew here)

Personally I am a man who listens to women rabbis on how to follow halacha But OP is not me, she made a choice to become O, a choice that can be debated based on differing interpretations of the halacha.

OP - did you really expect more sympathy for O Judaism here than you have found?

By becoming BT you have chosen in some ways a very difficult path. People talk about cultishness and insularity, but this thread illustrates why so many Orthodox Jews do self segregate to some degree or another - our wider culture is SO out of sympathy with their fundamental assumptions and values, and people are not shy about the most hostile speech towards them. Again, OP, you would find more sympathy from a community of Muslims (after getting past politics) than here.

Good luck whatever you choose.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP— Think about what you want in your life. Do you want a sister and nieces and nephews? If the answer is yes, then go. I personally think religion of any type is the root of all evil in this world. They are all created by MEN. They are all discriminatory towards women. I get the need to believe in something. It gives people purpose and hope. However, OP’s question is a case in point why religion is evil and divisive. The fact that she even asks this question is quite sickening, in my opinion. Why do you need a MAN to tell you how to follow laws made up by other MEN?

Not all religions were created by men or run by men. You need to do more research before painting with such broad strokes.

Well, all religions were created and run by humans, but I do agree it's wrong to cast them all as equally incompatible with the spread of peace and love.

For example, Buddhism (which resonates a lot with me) is significantly more peaceful and egalitarian than Christianity or Islam. It has its faults (like all institutions do) but it requires much less adherence to doctrine or behavior standards than other religions. You can be a monk and follow all sorts of rules, or you can achieve the goal of Buddhism (reaching nirvana and therefore escaping the cycle of rebirth) without ever setting foot in a temple. Buddha is unusual in that he is a main focus of the religion, but he is not a god and does not require his followers to bow down to him as a god. I find Buddhism very empowering of the individual and it is exceptionally peaceful at its core (violence committed by monks for political purposes in Myanmar notwithstanding).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:100% go if you ever want to have a friendship with your sister for the rest of your life. And I say this as a religious person. You can't choose other's lives for them. Stay close to her. You never know what may happen or how her children might feel about religion.

+1 Your sister may need you in the future. She knows your beliefs, etc...you are equating "going to the wedding" with "supporting interfaith marriage" and they actually do NOT line up as the same thing, given your relationship with her.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP— Think about what you want in your life. Do you want a sister and nieces and nephews? If the answer is yes, then go. I personally think religion of any type is the root of all evil in this world. They are all created by MEN. They are all discriminatory towards women. I get the need to believe in something. It gives people purpose and hope. However, OP’s question is a case in point why religion is evil and divisive. The fact that she even asks this question is quite sickening, in my opinion. Why do you need a MAN to tell you how to follow laws made up by other MEN?

(symp C Jew here)

Personally I am a man who listens to women rabbis on how to follow halacha But OP is not me, she made a choice to become O, a choice that can be debated based on differing interpretations of the halacha.

OP - did you really expect more sympathy for O Judaism here than you have found?

By becoming BT you have chosen in some ways a very difficult path. People talk about cultishness and insularity, but this thread illustrates why so many Orthodox Jews do self segregate to some degree or another - our wider culture is SO out of sympathy with their fundamental assumptions and values, and people are not shy about the most hostile speech towards them. Again, OP, you would find more sympathy from a community of Muslims (after getting past politics) than here.

Good luck whatever you choose.

So, you are saying that we should sympathize with "misunderstood" fundamentalist religions that basically look down on the rest of us and consider us trash? I hope OP's sister is smarter than that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:100% go if you ever want to have a friendship with your sister for the rest of your life. And I say this as a religious person. You can't choose other's lives for them. Stay close to her. You never know what may happen or how her children might feel about religion.

+1 Your sister may need you in the future. She knows your beliefs, etc...you are equating "going to the wedding" with "supporting interfaith marriage" and they actually do NOT line up as the same thing, given your relationship with her.

Exactly. OP, what do you think going to her wedding really means in terms of your support for her religious choices?

I went to an Eastern Orthodox wedding. That doesn't mean I agree with the Eastern Orthodox religion. All it meant was I participated in celebrating the wedding of my friends who are members of that religion.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Not acceptable. Don’t go to the wedding.

That seems unduly rigid and intolerant. This is why the conservative/orthodox wing of religions (not just Judaism) turn people off to religion.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Go to the wedding.

Go to the wedding.

She has chosen not to live the style of life you have chosen. Respect how you were both raised, presumably by loving parents. Reform Judaism is ok with this, so you should be, too.

Failing to go to this wedding says more about the lack of compassion in your personal variety of Orthodoxy than it does about her. Considering you would be fine if it were a Jew who lives a life similar to hers (relatively non-practicing), your decision not to go is racist. Yeah, I said it. And I am a Jew.

[Anonymous]

My brother married a non Jew. I was quite upset when they first started seriously dating but my parents were of the opinion “love is love and religion doesn’t matter.” Once wedding planning got underway and my mom heard about the minister who would marry them and how their future children wouldn’t be resisted Jewish, that’s when she got upset. Now she’s constantly trying to interject Judaism into their lives (wrapping presents in Hanukkah paper, sending humentachen for Purim etc). It’s awkward. On the other hand, I fully accepted that my brother was no longer practicing and his children wouldn’t be Jewish. I was sad- very sad- but I love him and support him.

Speak to your rabbi but please go and support your sister and family. Being there doesn’t make you any less observant.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:(sympathetic C Jew again) To note the kids will be halachically Jewish (lets leave off with the "culturally Jewish" BS - the kids won't be speaking Yiddish, vaguely aware of Judaism is not "culturally Jewish") and at some point may have curiosity about Judaism. If you, OP, are involved in their lives, and can model a happy successful O life, they may be drawn either to O, or at least to some more Torah focused life.

I would also suggest you talk with an Orthodox rabbi familiar with the situation among non O in America (IE a mainstream modern O rabbi, esp one familiar with BT issues) Not sure a rabbi in Israel would be a good source on the sociology, even if you follow them on halacha.

So the kids are only worth being involved with if they are "halachically" Jewish through the mother? Such bullsh*t reasoning is why the numbers of Jews will decrease in the U.S. My son is not "halachically" Jewish because I (the mom) am not, but I make a lot of effort to educate him and expose him to the faith. If what you're intending is to alienate Jews and decrease your numbers, good job.

Good for you. However halachically Jewish kids will find an easier path to traditional Judaism, especially given that in this case the Jewish parent is an atheist so they will not be educated as Jews.

And that matters, why? Being obsessed with the gender of the Jewish parent only makes the child less likely to find their way to traditional Judaism, because it's so arbitrary. The only reason the path is easier for the halachically Jewish kid is because you discriminated against the non-halachic kid based solely on the gender of the Jewish parent.

You are correct. Interfaith marriages are the reason that Reform Judaism is dying out. While I think the OP is wrong if she doesn’t attend her sidter’s wedding, statistics show that there is a significant chance that her future nieces and nephews will not raise Jewish children.