What is a Tiger Mom? If you are one how are you different from everyone else?

[Anonymous]

Wow, I didn't know how many people who identify as Asian were so racist and judgmental.

Very ugly thread, indeed.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I'm Asian, and let's not lie, especially on an anonymous forum. Plenty of Asian parents do regard Western parenting styles as "inferior". That is why so many of them don't want their kids playing with Western minded kids. The parents feel the Americanized kids way of life (ie, the way the kids are due to the parenting styles) will rub off on their Asian kids. Maybe you could say it's cultural, but culture does somewhat equate to parenting style.

OP again- Thankfully it's largely cultural from what I've seen as my family has not felt discriminated at all by the high performing Asian community. I would say that about 70% of my kid's friends are high performing Asian classmates (Indian and Chinese) and their parents are willing to socialize with us/ go out of their way to help us now that they know us and our values. Of course, we also watch our kid's cultural influences too but I think most caring parents regardless of their parenting style care about peer influences. It's just different priorities for different people.

OP - yes, it's because your kids are "high performing" that the Asian community around you are willing to let you into their fold. Are you white? Most Asian people are somewhat racists towards blacks and Hispanics. How old are your kids? Once your kids hit their teen years, if they become sexually active or like to party (even if they bring home good grades), you will find Asian parents less willing to socialize with you or your kids.

And I'm not being racist towards Asian..I'm Asian. This is just what I have observed of Asian parents in general.

I agree, most involved parents, including my DH and I, absolutely care about peer influence. But I find the "tiger moms" definition of good peer influences to be much more restrictive. For example, I don't care if my kids have friends that don't do well in school, as long as they are good (kind and compassionate). But the "tiger mom" would never want their kids to socialize with low performing kids for fear their kids might not value education, too.

As our kids get older, we have less influence on who their friends are. All we can do at this point is instill in them good values and hope some of it has been ingrained into them.

I also find "tiger parents", regardless of race, care way too much about status/prestige/wealth, and for the most part, they want their kids to have status positions (that mostly include high pay). They would be ok with their kid being a professor, but probably not a K teacher.

PP here.. Sorry, don't know what happened to the quotes. I fixed it. Much easier to see where my post starts now.

OP here- Yes- I am white and I'll be honest, I'd discourage my kids from befriending low performing respectful kids too for a myriad number of reasons (sorry PP). My kids definitely wouldn't be allowed to hang out with kids who party either and the lifestyle that entails regardless of the grades of these children. Neither my husband nor I "party" so they haven't been exposed to that lifestyle nor have they even seen that behavior modeled on TV (MTV etc) as my kids have never really watched TV shows. I honestly don't even know if they understand the concept of network television.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Wow, I didn't know how many people who identify as Asian were so racist and judgmental.

Very ugly thread, indeed.

PP.. there are racist people from all ethnic backgrounds. It's not limited to Asians. And I would be careful what you assume about people when you meet them IRL based on postings from DCUM. I'm the Asian poster that stated a lot of Asians are racist against blacks and Hispanics. But let me be clear, it is not ALL Asians, especially those that have lived here for a long time. I live where I do because it is very multi-racial. Where I used to live was just whites and Asians, and all the Hispanics that went to my DC's school were "poor", one black kid - and was biracial at that. I did not like the racial makeup of that school. I now live in a neighborhood with lots of professional black and Hispanic families. I don't want my kids to associate poverty with one race.

And almost every poster on DCUM is judgemental... and they are clearly not all Asians.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
OP here- Yes- I am white and I'll be honest, I'd discourage my kids from befriending low performing respectful kids too for a myriad number of reasons (sorry PP). My kids definitely wouldn't be allowed to hang out with kids who party either and the lifestyle that entails regardless of the grades of these children. Neither my husband nor I "party" so they haven't been exposed to that lifestyle nor have they even seen that behavior modeled on TV (MTV etc) as my kids have never really watched TV shows. I honestly don't even know if they understand the concept of network television.

One of the key elements of tiger parenting, IMO, is to encourage one's children to associate with other kids who are academically motivated, respectful and listen to their parents. In this respect they are not any different than other parents. Where the difference comes into play is tiger parents would be much more coercive in this regard especially when the children are still young. This is where discipline comes into play.

I believe that any impact in terms of influencing children must occur when the children are very young. When they get older - say as teenagers - it becomes much more difficult to enforce such rules and discipline and certainly coercion does not work as well.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
OP here- Yes- I am white and I'll be honest, I'd discourage my kids from befriending low performing respectful kids too for a myriad number of reasons (sorry PP). My kids definitely wouldn't be allowed to hang out with kids who party either and the lifestyle that entails regardless of the grades of these children. Neither my husband nor I "party" so they haven't been exposed to that lifestyle nor have they even seen that behavior modeled on TV (MTV etc) as my kids have never really watched TV shows. I honestly don't even know if they understand the concept of network television.

One of the key elements of tiger parenting, IMO, is to encourage one's children to associate with other kids who are academically motivated, respectful and listen to their parents. In this respect they are not any different than other parents. Where the difference comes into play is tiger parents would be much more coercive in this regard especially when the children are still young. This is where discipline comes into play.

I believe that any impact in terms of influencing children must occur when the children are very young. When they get older - say as teenagers - it becomes much more difficult to enforce such rules and discipline and certainly coercion does not work as well.

How do you identify the young kids who party? Lifestyle? What on earth does that mean?

You are clearly referring to younger children, in which case none of this makes sense. You have no idea who will be academically motivated. My DD was not an academic superstar by any means when she was young but was by the time she graduated from high school. Clearly what you mean is that you will only allow your DC to associate with children of parents with similar parenting philosophies. In which case, you will be starting them off with a very rigid socialization. This will not serve their developing social skills which, trust me, are critical for success. It will also piss off other parents. When your DC is hanging out with a friend at school and the other child's mother calls for a play date, what will you say? Sorry, your child isn't academically motivated enough to play with mine.

And if you are referring to a teen, you will fail. Will you prevent your DC from going to parties? Then prepare for an unhappy child or a child who rebels. Or maybe you can keep them under lock and key until college, in which case they will be totally unprepared for the college experience. No one wants a child who is irresponsible, who drinks or uses drugs. But the way to prevent that is to help guide them through the high school social experience, not keep it away from them. But my guess is that you are the parent of young kids and you have a unrealistic sense of what it is to raise a teen.

And by the way, kids don't watch TV anymore.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
OP here- Yes- I am white and I'll be honest, I'd discourage my kids from befriending low performing respectful kids too for a myriad number of reasons (sorry PP). My kids definitely wouldn't be allowed to hang out with kids who party either and the lifestyle that entails regardless of the grades of these children. Neither my husband nor I "party" so they haven't been exposed to that lifestyle nor have they even seen that behavior modeled on TV (MTV etc) as my kids have never really watched TV shows. I honestly don't even know if they understand the concept of network television.

One of the key elements of tiger parenting, IMO, is to encourage one's children to associate with other kids who are academically motivated, respectful and listen to their parents. In this respect they are not any different than other parents. Where the difference comes into play is tiger parents would be much more coercive in this regard especially when the children are still young. This is where discipline comes into play.

I believe that any impact in terms of influencing children must occur when the children are very young. When they get older - say as teenagers - it becomes much more difficult to enforce such rules and discipline and certainly coercion does not work as well.

How do you identify the young kids who party? Lifestyle? What on earth does that mean?

You are clearly referring to younger children, in which case none of this makes sense. You have no idea who will be academically motivated. My DD was not an academic superstar by any means when she was young but was by the time she graduated from high school. Clearly what you mean is that you will only allow your DC to associate with children of parents with similar parenting philosophies. In which case, you will be starting them off with a very rigid socialization. This will not serve their developing social skills which, trust me, are critical for success. It will also piss off other parents. When your DC is hanging out with a friend at school and the other child's mother calls for a play date, what will you say? Sorry, your child isn't academically motivated enough to play with mine.

And if you are referring to a teen, you will fail. Will you prevent your DC from going to parties? Then prepare for an unhappy child or a child who rebels. Or maybe you can keep them under lock and key until college, in which case they will be totally unprepared for the college experience. No one wants a child who is irresponsible, who drinks or uses drugs. But the way to prevent that is to help guide them through the high school social experience, not keep it away from them. But my guess is that you are the parent of young kids and you have a unrealistic sense of what it is to raise a teen.

And by the way, kids don't watch TV anymore.

+1 I'm the one who posted that I don't mind if my kids are friends with low academic achievers so long as they are good kids. FWIW - My DC is a high achiever, in HGC/compacted math. So, OP, on the surface, you would think my kids are play date material. There are kids that are low-achievers simply because they just aren't that bright or have learning issues. But these kids could be good kids. Most of my DC's best friends are not high achievers, but they are great kids, well-behaved, and really kind to my DC. They are actually good influences on my DC because they show him what friendships should be like... equal, give/take, caring. Some of the HGC kids that I have seen are not quite as well behaved, a bit rude, selfish, and have said unkind things to my DC. By stating that you only want your kids to befriend high-achievers limits your kid's circle of friends. You never know...the nicest friend to your kid may be a lower achieving kid.

Life doesn't occur in a bubble. At some point, you will want your kids surrounded by different kinds of people so that they are not living a sheltered life as far as dealing with different kinds of people. When your kids are at an age where you have little influence, when your kids come upon people that are not like them, your kids should be able to know what the right choices are and how to deal with peer pressures. Having your kids only surrounded by like kids won't give them the opportunity to know how to make the choices because right now, they really don't have a choice since there are no alternatives.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Asians are culturally raised to do certain things like be respectful of elders, behave with restraint in social situations, listen to their parents when they are outside the house etc.

i'm much more Asian than you - born and raised and educated and worked there till late 20s, and i am everything you said, respectful of elders, behave with restraint in social situations, listen to their parents when they are outside the house, and then some - but my kids are ill behaved and have terrible manners and act out and bad listeners in or outside the house. they're the opposite of me.

PP, you should turn in your Asian card. What kind of Asian parent are you? You bring shame to all of us Asian parents... tee hee.

In seriousness, do you think this is because your kids have been exposed to the Western influence, or you just don't parent the way your parents did?

it's because i didn't want to parent my kids the Asian way yet failed to raise them the american/western way successfully. one doesn't become a good parent just by reading parenting books.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Tiger Moms (of all races) see their children as an extension of their own narcissism. They want them to be super-de-duper terrific at everything so they can bask in the reflected glory. To achieve this they have to control their kids in ways that deprive them of the opportunity to engage in their differentiation and identity-seeking. Either they walk away completely or grow to be stunted adults.

I am not my children's coach, I am their mother. Someone else, say a coach, should be their coach. It is developmentally necessary for kids to make mistakes, to screw things up, otherwise they become risk averse. As a mother I can make room for them to make mistakes. As a coach I can't.

+100000

Well said! I hope TM's see this. They should really be more aware.

Follows along with Shefali Tsabary (sp?) book and philosophy. Worth a read for those who are turned off by the tiger mom stuff but don't have interest in it being all hippy dippy, no ambition, etc. (She's very much about balance)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Asians are culturally raised to do certain things like be respectful of elders, behave with restraint in social situations, listen to their parents when they are outside the house etc.

i'm much more Asian than you - born and raised and educated and worked there till late 20s, and i am everything you said, respectful of elders, behave with restraint in social situations, listen to their parents when they are outside the house, and then some - but my kids are ill behaved and have terrible manners and act out and bad listeners in or outside the house. they're the opposite of me.

PP, you should turn in your Asian card. What kind of Asian parent are you? You bring shame to all of us Asian parents... tee hee.

In seriousness, do you think this is because your kids have been exposed to the Western influence, or you just don't parent the way your parents did?

it's because i didn't want to parent my kids the Asian way yet failed to raise them the american/western way successfully. one doesn't become a good parent just by reading parenting books.

I'm PP. Parenting is just flat out hard either way. It's harder but not too late to make it better. I'm Asian, and I try to parent a mix of Asian and Western style. It helps that my DH is European but kind of old school in his parenting philosophy. Like another PP stated, we enforce respect of elders, teachers, etc.. We don't allow them to call adults by their first name. And we don't bad mouth the teachers in front of our kids. DH is big on politeness (it's a big deal when he was growing up) - saying thank you and please. And we definitely do not allow disrespect (ie, mouthy, attitude) to us parents. I like that the Western way of parenting encourages kids to be more independent. It's so the opposite in the Asian style. But there should be a limit to independence.. what you deem appropriate independence.

You need to find balance.. good parts to both sides.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Wow, I didn't know how many people who identify as Asian were so racist and judgmental.

Very ugly thread, indeed.

PP.. there are racist people from all ethnic backgrounds. It's not limited to Asians. And I would be careful what you assume about people when you meet them IRL based on postings from DCUM. I'm the Asian poster that stated a lot of Asians are racist against blacks and Hispanics. But let me be clear, it is not ALL Asians, especially those that have lived here for a long time. I live where I do because it is very multi-racial. Where I used to live was just whites and Asians, and all the Hispanics that went to my DC's school were "poor", one black kid - and was biracial at that. I did not like the racial makeup of that school. I now live in a neighborhood with lots of professional black and Hispanic families. I don't want my kids to associate poverty with one race.And almost every poster on DCUM is judgemental... and they are clearly not all Asians.

Would you share the name and location of your current neighborhood? I am actually trying to find that right mix for my family. TIA

[Anonymous]

OP again-

A few people have commented/criticized some of my parenting after reading my last posting. I won't respond to most of the comments to keep this thread on topic but the average American kid between 8-18 years old watches 4.5 hours of TV per day (http://www.livestrong.com/article/222032-how-much-tv-does-the-average-child-watch-each-day/) and this represents one way the average family has priorities much different from my own.

I feel that I've learned great parenting tips from certain Asian friends/neighbors who have very high expectations for their kids yet are very compassionate. I bet many would characterize these friends as tiger moms. However, what I see are just great parents/people who care deeply about their kids. I opened this thread because I feel like the term "tiger parent" is used "loosely" and after seeing a great interview with Amy Chua I really felt confused by its meaning.

I really do appreciate the comments that I've received on this thread received particularly from the self-described "tiger moms". Self-described tiger moms, I've ordered her book on Amazon so that I can more fully understand its meaning from an "Asian" perspective. Hopefully, I'll be able to separate the satire/hyperbole from the true autobiographical elements given that I was brought up very differently.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP again-

A few people have commented/criticized some of my parenting after reading my last posting. I won't respond to most of the comments to keep this thread on topic but the average American kid between 8-18 years old watches 4.5 hours of TV per day (http://www.livestrong.com/article/222032-how-much-tv-does-the-average-child-watch-each-day/) and this represents one way the average family has priorities much different from my own.

I feel that I've learned great parenting tips from certain Asian friends/neighbors who have very high expectations for their kids yet are very compassionate. I bet many would characterize these friends as tiger moms. However, what I see are just great parents/people who care deeply about their kids. I opened this thread because I feel like the term "tiger parent" is used "loosely" and after seeing a great interview with Amy Chua I really felt confused by its meaning.

I really do appreciate the comments that I've received on this thread received particularly from the self-described "tiger moms". Self-described tiger moms, I've ordered her book on Amazon so that I can more fully understand its meaning from an "Asian" perspective. Hopefully, I'll be able to separate the satire/hyperbole from the true autobiographical elements given that I was brought up very differently.

I have a 15 year-old and an 18 year old. They never watch TV. I am skeptical of that study. I don't see a lot of teens watching TV.

[Anonymous]

One of the fundamental differences between tiger parenting and the more conventional parenting is that the former believe children are not capable of mature decision making. We see this with issues like picking the college they would like to attend.

As a tiger parent I have steered and will continue to steer my children into the types of colleges that will enhance their prospects down the line. We also do the same with the majors they select in college and the professions they pursue.

It is not that we expect all our children to become doctors, engineers, lawyers or investment bankers but when we hear school and college counselors tell children to pursue their "passion" I roll my eyes. I told my son it is all very well for the counselor to say he should pursue his "passion" but down the line when he has to find a job majoring in his "passion" may not enable him to find employment and the counselor who advised him to follow his "passion" will be out of the picture.

I have seen discussions on this subject on other threads and there are parents - I am sure they are not tiger parents - who are totally in the counselor's camp about following one's passion.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

It is not that we expect all our children to become doctors, engineers, lawyers or investment bankers but when we hear school and college counselors tell children to pursue their "passion" I roll my eyes. I told my son it is all very well for the counselor to say he should pursue his "passion" but down the line when he has to find a job majoring in his "passion" may not enable him to find employment and the counselor who advised him to follow his "passion" will be out of the picture.

Whereas when he does get a job that he hates, the parents who made him get that job will still be in the picture. That's good, I guess.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:One of the fundamental differences between tiger parenting and the more conventional parenting is that the former believe children are not capable of mature decision making. We see this with issues like picking the college they would like to attend.

As a tiger parent I have steered and will continue to steer my children into the types of colleges that will enhance their prospects down the line. We also do the same with the majors they select in college and the professions they pursue.

It is not that we expect all our children to become doctors, engineers, lawyers or investment bankers but when we hear school and college counselors tell children to pursue their "passion" I roll my eyes. I told my son it is all very well for the counselor to say he should pursue his "passion" but down the line when he has to find a job majoring in his "passion" may not enable him to find employment and the counselor who advised him to follow his "passion" will be out of the picture.

I have seen discussions on this subject on other threads and there are parents - I am sure they are not tiger parents - who are totally in the counselor's camp about following one's passion.

When I read that first sentence I thought this would be a criticism of tiger parenting. I sure hope that a student who is going to college is "capable of mature decision making." If my children aren't capable of making a mature decision, such as where they (not me) will go to college, I've failed as a parent.

Everyone makes mistakes and hopefully learns from them. A child who pursues a passion and can't find employment will have to regroup. Thats life. Its also true of disciplines that seem like a certain ticket to a job. There are lots of graduates of law schools who can't find work. That was not the case when I went to law school. There are no guarantees in this life. At least if you pursue your passion you won't spend your life resenting your parents for keeping you from that thing you always wanted to do.

At what point do you allow your children to make their own decisions? So, not the college they attend and not their major and course of study. So suddenly at the age of 22 your child for whom you've made all major decisions has to make them himself?

I have an 18 year-old who is a self-started. She chose her college. She found herself a job outside of school. She has passions and pursues them with a real sophistication. I trust her with her future.