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Anonymous wrote:The AISGW guidelines say that schools are not to email, call or otherwise notify applicants before 5pm on 3/3. Do you think that Holton will still call beforehand?
https://www.aisgw.org/statement-to-applicants/
Those guidelines are new this year, and it will be interesting to see how many schools adhere strictly to them. For several years one well known school in DC has mailed a day before the others, despite saying they would mail on the same day.
AISGW's idea is a good one, but I don't believe there is any enforcement mechanism, so I'm hopeful schools will comply this year of their own volition.
Peter
_____________________
Disclaimer: The anonymity here makes me uncomfortable; it's easy to be uninformed, personal, or simply mean-spirited if people don't identify themselves. For that reason, I have an account so you know whose words you're reading. I have more than 20 years' experience as a teacher and administrator in independent schools, and I have counseled hundreds of students in finding their next schools. I hope I can be helpful to some folks. If you don't like something I've said, you're in good company — there's a long line of past students and parents ahead of you.
If you want to chat further, please feel free to contact me offline: peter <at> arcpd <dot> com
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Last year we waited until we saw that our first choice had waitlisted our DD. Then we submitted a letter indicating they were our first choice if they could admit her before the contract binding date for our next choice school. DD did not get in.
The selective schools (the ones that are often mentioned on this forum) are pretty much everyone's "first choice". I really don't think the first choice letter would have tipped the scale one way or another.
First choice letter absolutely won't hurt; go for it. But to think not sending one in resulted in DC WL or not get accepted.....I don't think so.
I would disagree that the selective schools are "everybody's first choice" — there are families who have opted not to run on that wheel, which, like all things, has advantages and drawbacks. I am not suggesting this of the PP, but seeing school as the "end game" is an approach that I think does not serve children (or families) well.
As for the first-choice letter, it's easy to make too much of any one aspect of the entire application process — especially those aspects within our control! It's a bit of a paradox: Every one of the dozen or so parts of the application process counts, but no school expects perfection. Even among the most selective schools, there are only a handful of applicants who are at the top of every parameter that matters to an admission office.
Peter
Deleted weird repetition. Sorry.
Anonymous wrote:pbraverman wrote:There are no formulas, but based on what you describe above, I wouldn't write your daughter off at all. If you'd like, send me a note offline. I'd be happy to talk for ten minutes and give you some read based on my experience — no charge, obviously. If not, I hope things work out for your family!
Thanks for the offer, and what you've written is encouraging already. If DD gets WLed at all of our top choices (currently my expectation and biggest fear), then we'll definitely reach out.
Okay, sounds good!
Peter
Anonymous wrote:pbraverman wrote:All of that said, I don't think a declaration of first choice usually plays a very big role in the process. It's seldom enough to make an unattractive candidate attractive, or vice-versa. With very few exceptions, schools offer admission to the applicants they want, and then deal with the cards as they're played.
Thanks, and that's encouraging to hear. Thinking about this some more, the real reason why this "first choice letter" issue weighs on me more than it should is the fact that our family has virtually no hook with any of the schools where we're applying. All we have going for us are: (1) being full pay, (2) DD's very high WPPSI scores, and (3) seemingly good play visits (but who knows). We're not white, but not an URM. We don't know any families who can put in a word on our behalf. Our Ivy League degrees and professional careers are far from unique in this town. So I feel powerless now that all the materials are in and have this nagging sense that we still "have to do something." I simply don't trust that the process is going to work out for an unconnected family like ours, especially when we applied to the Big 3 and two somewhat selective schools. I know anecdotally that completely unconnected families do end up at these schools, but that they're still in the vast minority.
These six weeks between the application deadline and notification are tough. You have little choice but to sit and wait, and in this town ... we are men of action. (Apologies for the sexism of the original!)
There are no formulas, but based on what you describe above, I wouldn't write your daughter off at all. If you'd like, send me a note offline. I'd be happy to talk for ten minutes and give you some read based on my experience — no charge, obviously. If not, I hope things work out for your family!
Peter
_____________________
Disclaimer: The anonymity here makes me uncomfortable; it's easy to be uninformed, personal, or simply mean-spirited if people don't identify themselves. For that reason, I have an account so you know whose words you're reading. I have more than 20 years' experience as a teacher and administrator in independent schools, and I have counseled hundreds of students in finding their next schools. I hope I can be helpful to some folks. If you don't like something I've said, you're in good company — there's a long line of past students and parents ahead of you.
If you want to chat further, please feel free to contact me offline: peter <at> arcpd <dot> com
Anonymous wrote:pbraverman wrote:I think schools understand that parents make school choices in the younger grades. To that extent, then, yes, an expression of a first choice might be helpful. Unless you are over-eager or dishonest, it's hard to see how it would hurt.
The problem is that we don't really have a clear first-choice. There may be one school that we prefer very, very slightly to the others, but the margin is so slim. And there's no place where we'd instantly accept without taking a second look at other options if DC were lucky enough to get in. So I don't think we can in good conscience submit one, and unfortunately we'll always wonder "what if" in the event that DC gets WLed here.
Yes, I think you've analyzed the situation well. In essence, you have to decide whether you're willing to trade a slightly higher chance of admission (potentially) against the flexibility to delay the decision until you have more information. There is no control group in these experiments, so your "What if..." is, unfortunately, a possibility. All of that said, I don't think a declaration of first choice usually plays a very big role in the process. It's seldom enough to make an unattractive candidate attractive, or vice-versa. With very few exceptions, schools offer admission to the applicants they want, and then deal with the cards as they're played.
There can, however, be ways to influence a wait-list decision positively. If you'd like to talk about that please feel free to get in touch (below).
Peter
_____________________
Disclaimer: The anonymity here makes me uncomfortable; it's easy to be uninformed, personal, or simply mean-spirited if people don't identify themselves. For that reason, I have an account so you know whose words you're reading. I have more than 20 years' experience as a teacher and administrator in independent schools, and I have counseled hundreds of students in finding their next schools. I hope I can be helpful to some folks. If you don't like something I've said, you're in good company — there's a long line of past students and parents ahead of you.
If you want to chat further, please feel free to contact me offline: peter <at> arcpd <dot> com
Anonymous wrote:This thread keeps making me think about sending "second choice" letters. I am imagining what you might say in there.
LOL.
"We are SO excited about your school that you're our second choice! We were more excited about your school, but since we applied we have learned that your parents are all hopeless snobs, your students are all either bullies or victims, and your teachers and administrators DON'T CARE AT ALL!!!!!
P.S. I can't tell you where we learned that, because it's anonymous."
Anonymous wrote:Sorry for the slight derail OP, but I'd like to know if such letters have any meaningful value add when applying for PK or K?
Without knowing anything, my instinct says no. Simply because it'd be hard to convey any meaningful preference on the applicant/child's part, and it becomes more about the parents expressing their choice (and query whether the schools really care about that as much compared to considering a much older child's first choice).
I think schools understand that parents make school choices in the younger grades. To that extent, then, yes, an expression of a first choice might be helpful. Unless you are over-eager or dishonest, it's hard to see how it would hurt.
Good luck!
Peter
Anonymous wrote:Does it mean anything?
It means they're on top of their marketing. It's in their interest to keep your interest up, and you can learn more about the school and community so that your decision-making is further along if your child is eventually offered a spot.
Beyond that, I wouldn't read too much into it. It's an outreach gesture, and a friendly one at that. It's very unlikely it's meant to convey anything more.
Good luck at decision time!
Peter
_____________________
Disclaimer: The anonymity here makes me uncomfortable; it's easy to be uninformed, personal, or simply mean-spirited if people don't identify themselves. For that reason, I have an account so you know whose words you're reading. I have more than 20 years' experience as a teacher and administrator in independent schools, and I have counseled hundreds of students in finding their next schools. I hope I can be helpful to some folks. If you don't like something I've said, you're in good company — there's a long line of past students and parents ahead of you.
If you want to chat further, please feel free to contact me offline: peter <at> arcpd <dot> com
Anonymous wrote:My sister and I have been having an ongoing conversation on the following question. If you are a student and you hear a fellow student talk about committing suicide, or discuss plans or intentions to commit violent acts against their classmates or school, you are obviously going to immediately report it to someone so that they can intervene and help. Why then are students inclined to do the exact opposite when it comes to escalating and/or dangerous drug use among a fellow student?
Her oldest son is currently in college and attended an elite prep school in the Northeast (akin to, or with an even better reputation than, schools like GDS, NCS/STA, or Sidwell). One of the young men in his extended high school circle (not a best friend, but definitely someone he knew well, socialized with, and was in many classes and activities with) died last year of a drug overdose after dropping out of college. This was a boy who was supposedly well liked, respected by his peers, one of the academic stars of his class, with a close group of friends, a good athlete, and highly successful in one of his school's academic teams - which is a perennial powerhouse. His parents are professionals and by all accounts his entire family (brother and sister) is lovely.
After this young man's death there has been a good deal of ongoing guilt and self-recriminations among his former classmates. The parents supposedly had no idea their son had a drug problem until he started to fall apart during his second year of college (an Ivy), and deteriorated so quickly that he had to drop out by the end of that year. His high school classmates knew that he smoked marijuana (as some of them did) in high school - often during the school week or school day - and that he had moved on to DXM (cough syrup) and opioid use (smoking from a pipe). But no one wanted to say anything because (a) they thought it was not affecting his grades or ability to function (great grades and college), and (b) they did not want to ruin his life. Obviously knowing now the path his life would take (OD injecting heroin), many of his friends wish that they had spoken to his parents about the issue earlier. This story has affected us both because the circumstances and situation are so much exactly like our daily experience.
As a result I have told my children that they need to report escalating or increased drug use by a friend to me, so that I can contact someone to help. Or they need to write and mail an anonymous note to the family of the student involved, and/or write and deliver an anonymous note to a school teacher or counselor so that they can intervene to help the student. I have told them that observing or knowing about an issue of risky drug use among a student, is like knowing that that student intends to harm themselves or others in the immediate future.
I have defined the types of risky drug (ab)use that should be immediately (either anonymously or in person) reported to the student's family or school as:
(1) selling any sort of drugs on or near school property;
(2) using any drug (marijuana, prescription medicines, over-the-counter drug, opioids, or street drugs) multiple times a week;
(3) showing up high or otherwise altered to school;
(4) progressing to the point where you are either smoking opioids or street drugs from a pipe (pre-injection), or through injection (by which point your are an addict).
Already one of my children has told me that they are concerned about one of their classmates, and would like me to help contact the school (I intend to mail an anonymous note to the family). I would ask all families to please have similar conversations with their own children. If you think this cannot or does not occur in your school, you are wrong about that. And if you believe that it is not your business to intervene when a student has started down a risky path with drugs because "you don't want to ruin their lives", well, you are more likely to "ruin their lives" if you do not intervene to help. It has been conclusively demonstrated that early-onset (11-16 years) drug abuse is much more difficult to kick (as opposed to beginning drug use later in life), and that once a teenager has progressed to smoking opioids or street drugs it is certain they will eventually turn to injecting them. And once a person uses injections to get high that habit is mostly impossible to kick.
As with a PP who had a school career, I think the OP is to be commended for thinking this through and talking about it with her/his children. Open communication is a factor in reducing risky behavior.
I think there is a pretty clear line here, however: If you believe a person is a danger to himself/herself or others, bringing the situation to the attention of a responsible party is the right thing to do. We can disagree about what constitutes "danger," but if the information has reached adults, that probably means that some of the kids think it's crossed that threshold.
You need not have ironclad evidence to raise the concern; you're not Scotland Yard. But I agree that you should try hard not to be anonymous, at least with other adults. As an administrator I would file away the information presented to me, but it's very hard to take clear action based on anonymous information. "Somebody, I don't know who, said..." is not a great opening line in a serious conversation with an adolescent. Try to muster the moxie to approach the parent, saying what you do know and admitting what you don't, and acknowledging that you're in an unenviable position. Admitting your own limits would help another parent join you and believe you; that parent will likely feel isolated, defensive, and scared and will need an ally.
I once called a senior's mother late in the school year to have a conversation that went something like this: "I don't have hard evidence, but there is talk that your son is smoking pot so frequently that it's reached me and left me concerned. I'm not going to take any disciplinary action because I have no evidence that it's occurred at school, and I understand that you may hear this as an accusation even though that's not my intention. I asked myself, 'If I were a parent in your position, would I want to know this?' and the answer was yes. So I'm passing along my concern."
Seldom did I have a parent who received a concerned phone call so gratefully.
Good luck.
Peter
_____________________
Disclaimer: The anonymity here makes me uncomfortable; it's easy to be uninformed, personal, or simply mean-spirited if people don't identify themselves. For that reason, I have an account so you know whose words you're reading. I have more than 20 years' experience as a teacher and administrator in independent schools, and I have counseled hundreds of students in finding their next schools. I hope I can be helpful to some folks. If you don't like something I've said, you're in good company — there's a long line of past students and parents ahead of you.
If you want to chat further, please feel free to contact me offline: peter <at> arcpd <dot> com
PP: No. There is always a risk of appearing over-eager; if you've told them twice that's sufficient. However, if your child is wait listed, you should reiterate it.
First choice letters can help if they're sincere, because it's to a school's advantage to fill fewer slots. If a school has 25 slots for ninth grade and is nearly certain they'll yield 10 admits, that means their calculations for yield are based on 15 slots, not 25, which should decrease the margin of error by 40% (theoretically, anyway).
Schools that compete for applicants do not talk about their applicants during the process. There was a thread on this a few weeks ago — among other concerns it could be an antitrust violation and they're all too busy to be gossiping at this time of year.
Telling multiple schools they're your first choice: In a practical sense, you might decide later to change schools and you can be pretty well assured that the schools where you reneged on your promise will not view it favorably. In addition, if your child is at an independent school now, the person who coordinates placement will probably know you don't have three #1 choices, and that could expose a loose allegiance to the truth when he or she advocates for your child.
Regardless of the "enforcement," I'd think people would be decent enough not to be intentionally dishonest. That kind of thing has a habit of catching up with you and it does not serve children well. It's a long four, seven, thirteen years. Truism: Parents who behave poorly (see: Dishonesty, intentional) are more likely to have children who behave poorly. Corollary: Parents who behave poorly are more likely to blame their children's poor behavior on the school.
Peter
_____________________
Disclaimer: The anonymity here makes me uncomfortable; it's easy to be uninformed, personal, or simply mean-spirited if people don't identify themselves. For that reason, I have an account so you know whose words you're reading. I have more than 20 years' experience as a teacher and administrator in independent schools, and I have counseled hundreds of students in finding their next schools. I hope I can be helpful to some folks. If you don't like something I've said, you're in good company — there's a long line of past students and parents ahead of you. If you want to chat further, please feel free to contact me offline: peter <at> arcpd <dot> com
First choice letters can help if they're sincere, because it's to a school's advantage to fill fewer slots. If a school has 25 slots for ninth grade and is nearly certain they'll yield 10 admits, that means their calculations for yield are based on 15 slots, not 25, which should decrease the margin of error by 40% (theoretically, anyway).
Schools that compete for applicants do not talk about their applicants during the process. There was a thread on this a few weeks ago — among other concerns it could be an antitrust violation and they're all too busy to be gossiping at this time of year.
Telling multiple schools they're your first choice: In a practical sense, you might decide later to change schools and you can be pretty well assured that the schools where you reneged on your promise will not view it favorably. In addition, if your child is at an independent school now, the person who coordinates placement will probably know you don't have three #1 choices, and that could expose a loose allegiance to the truth when he or she advocates for your child.
Regardless of the "enforcement," I'd think people would be decent enough not to be intentionally dishonest. That kind of thing has a habit of catching up with you and it does not serve children well. It's a long four, seven, thirteen years. Truism: Parents who behave poorly (see: Dishonesty, intentional) are more likely to have children who behave poorly. Corollary: Parents who behave poorly are more likely to blame their children's poor behavior on the school.
Peter
_____________________
Disclaimer: The anonymity here makes me uncomfortable; it's easy to be uninformed, personal, or simply mean-spirited if people don't identify themselves. For that reason, I have an account so you know whose words you're reading. I have more than 20 years' experience as a teacher and administrator in independent schools, and I have counseled hundreds of students in finding their next schools. I hope I can be helpful to some folks. If you don't like something I've said, you're in good company — there's a long line of past students and parents ahead of you.
If you want to chat further, please feel free to contact me offline: peter <at> arcpd <dot> com
Anonymous wrote:I have experience with materials getting in late as we were late to the admission process because of a move. I can tell you that the admissions office at NCS was beyond helpful, thoughtful and professional. They immediately took calls and answered emails. And no, we had no "connections" at all. They considered her not in the "first pile" but did consider her and she was accepted. I think the key is trying to get in touch via phone and e-mail. But I do think you have to have a good reason for being late with the materials. Good luck.
Good points, and thanks for adding them. If your family has made a recent move, or you have another clearly defensible reason for being late, it's definitely worth calling them. Their admission office is eminently reasonable.
Peter
Anonymous wrote:pbraverman wrote:Anonymous wrote:If it's at a more traditional, but not religious school. How short can her dress be? Jeans are a no, right? She's applying for 10th grade.
This is straightforward: She should wear clothing consistent with that of the girls in ninth grade at the school. If the school has a dress code, it is likely posted on their Web site, perhaps in a downloadable community handbook. If there are uniforms, she should wear something that matches their formality (such as for skirt length, for example). There's no need to try to match the uniform; that will seem a little "tryhard." However, I don't think it's a good idea to push the limits of a school's dress code before enrolling. After that, all bets are off!
Good luck!
Peter
I mostly agree with this poster (hats off to him for using his name), but not totally here.
If for example, the dress code allows jeans (and maybe just has a "no ripped or torn jeans" stricture), I would still advise that your daughter "dress up" at least somewhat for the interview -- we're not talking floor length gown here, but something to indicate she knows the interview is a special occasion of sorts and to show respect. Moreover, dress codes for girls are often nebulous on things such as "how short should the skirt really be." So you have to use a bit of your own judgment that it is better to be a bit conservative on things like skirt length for the interview process.
Agreed that it is better to tilt slightly toward the dressed-up side of the center. Thanks for that bon mot.
Peter
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:To the OP, I wouldn't brag to the admissions folks that your child is "very outgoing" -- that could be interpreted as a disruptive or ADHD kid. Great to find a good fit for your child but I'd be cautious in describing my kid that way to admissions staff.
Yea we didn't - my dc isn't remotely disruptive or ADHD - we just noticed that some schools were extremely quiet and the kids were very quiet. Extroverted is probably more the right term for our dc.
OP: It sounds like you know your child well. To some extent it does depend on the specific teachers and classrooms, but the ethic of the school is also important: A more traditional setting may ask students to pay attention to a teacher more and to interact with other students less. I'd encourage you to trust your instincts on this; it seems like you're very realistic and reasonable.
As to the PP, I agree that "bragging" to the admission office about your child's being outgoing could be problematic — but it's the bragging, not the outgoing, that's the problem. Merely saying that your child is "outgoing" wouldn't be a mark against anybody. Knowing your child well is always an advantage from an admission perspective — if he or she is outgoing there's nothing wrong with saying that.
Peter
_____________________
Disclaimer: The anonymity here makes me uncomfortable; it's easy to be uninformed, personal, or simply mean-spirited if people don't identify themselves. For that reason, I have an account so you know whose words you're reading. I have more than 20 years' experience as a teacher and administrator in independent schools, and I have counseled hundreds of students in finding their next schools. I hope I can be helpful to some folks. If you don't like something I've said, you're in good company — there's a long line of past students and parents ahead of you.
If you want to chat further, please feel free to contact me offline: peter <at> arcpd <dot> com
Anonymous wrote: Thanks
If it's a supplemental piece of the application (things not within the applicant's control, such as teacher recs, SSAT scores, etc.) and you can give them a firm date — "I talked to our school and you'll have the recs by Friday" — you should be fine.
If it's information within your family's control, it's a problem for schools that have more applicants than they can accommodate. Most of them will, as a PP noted, only consider the application after they've completed the first "wave." At the most competitive schools, that makes it nearly impossible to gain an offer of admission, absent an unusual circumstance. Other schools vary.
Hope that helps.
Peter
____________________
Disclaimer: The anonymity here makes me uncomfortable; it's easy to be uninformed, personal, or simply mean-spirited if people don't identify themselves. For that reason, I have an account so you know whose words you're reading. I have more than 20 years' experience as a teacher and administrator in independent schools, and I have counseled hundreds of students in finding their next schools. I hope I can be helpful to some folks. If you don't like something I've said, you're in good company — there's a long line of past students and parents ahead of you.
If you want to chat further, please feel free to contact me offline: peter <at> arcpd <dot> com