Anonymous wrote:which school offer better academics Bullis or St andrew's?

Almost any student would find many opportunities to grow academically, socially, athletically, and in many other ways at either school, but their personalities and strengths are different. The best way to gather dependable data on how well either school would fit a particular student is to look at Web sites, contact and then visit the schools, and ask questions of those whose children are enrolled. It's hard to believe that anonymous postings will provide more reliable information.

Peter
_____________________

Disclaimer: The anonymity here makes me uncomfortable; it's easy to be uninformed, personal, or simply mean-spirited if people don't identify themselves. For that reason, I have an account so you know whose words you're reading. I have more than 20 years' experience as a teacher and administrator in independent schools, and I hope I can be helpful to some folks. If you don't like something I've said, you're in good company — there's a long line of past students ahead of you. If you want to chat further, please feel free to contact me offline: peter <at> arcpd <dot> com

Anonymous wrote:Thanks a lot for this great advice. It really makes sense and you are right, the benefits she will get for being "queen of the hill" as you said will be with her for a long time and will give her confidence for the years ahead. It is rare to find such sincere and well intencioned advice here, so again, many thanks! I think you convinced me to stay.

Anonymous wrote:I completely agree that Peter gives wise and rational advice on this and other threads. But I just have one comment, as a parent who in the last few years decided to have her daughter make the switch to Holton (having applied to a range of schools and landed on this as the best fit) from a K-8 after 6th grade. While she was happy at her school and would have benefited, as Peter pointed out, from being "king of the hill," and knowing herself better, there was no denying the data. She wanted--and so did we--a top school and the chances of getting in to any of the top 5 to 6 schools go down substantially when applying for 9th grade. I had admissions people at 2 different schools tell me this themselves. All of Peter's advice is great, if we weren't in DC. If you and your daughter know that she wants to attend there (because you have fully vetted it and know it's a good fit), you may as well go for it in 7th.

I think the PP raises two good points:

1. If you are in DC (and especially if you are applying to DC schools), I think the calculus changes a little insofar as you might not find your public options desirable. In that case, I certainly understand the heightened interest in finding something ... whenever.

2. If a parent and his or her child feel strongly about making a change — and have for a while (i.e., it's not just a flavor-of-the-month thing), that's also a different situation. In the original case, the child is happy where she is and I didn't get the feeling that there was any urgency outside of the "what if we don't get in for ninth grade" question.

Thanks for the thoughtful additions.
Peter

P.S. Oh, wait, there's a third good point the PP makes: "Peter gives wise and rational advice." LOL, but thanks sincerely for the compliment.

With respect to the PP, this would not be my approach. It is a restatement of the idea that a particular school is more important to a child's success than the child herself.

I'd encourage you to ask first whether you think your daughter should switch schools after sixth grade. If the answer is no, trust your parenting and return in eighth grade to the question of which schools could be good fits. To make a decision now about where she might be in two years is folly; she will change a lot in that time and you are just as likely to be wrong as to be right. (The girl I wrote about earlier, and her parents, did indeed change their minds between grade 6 and grade 8.) At the same time you'll have foreclosed the chance for your daughter to be involved meaningfully in the decision at the very point she is most likely to grow from it.

The use of "you" in the previous post also leaves me uncomfortable — as in, "you" should know that "you" want Holton (I mean, unless you're actually the one applying, in which case we should have a different discussion. ) It suggests the YOUR goal of getting your daughter into the One Perfect School is more important than raising a self-reliant, confident daughter who can succeed in any environment. ("You're successful and happy now! Mommy wants you to switch!") What windmill are we chasing here?

If you have faith in your daughter, you know she will be awesome no matter where she goes to high school. If you don't, no school will help her overcome the lifetime avalanche of anxiety rolled up in the seductive veneer of "high achievement." (And yeah, I know we're all going to leave our children with clinical-level anxiety. Let's not get sidetracked here!)

Finally, I am surprised that the PP "suspects" that each admission level is "progressively harder than the next." I do not know whether that is the case for Holton specifically, but my experience with most schools does not support that assertion.

That said, I agree completely the admission team is terrific.

Peter

They are allowed to apply to three this year.

Thanks!

Anonymous wrote:I think it matters more where she finished, not where she started. Looking back most people don't stay close with lower school friends but have ties to where they graduate for life.

If you really want Holton as your #1 choice, you would be a fool to wait until the last major entry year.

This is a sensitive topic for me.

I agree that high school friends will likely be more long-term, but isn't that true of any high school? It's not as if Holton has a monopoly on creating these types of friendships — that's a function of adolescence. (Again, I think very highly of Holton, their staff, and their students. This isn't about them at all.)

I didn't sense the OP was looking to select her daughter's friends from a particular school; she was looking for an educational environment that would fit well, and her daughter will be more capable of contributing meaningfully to the looking when she is in eighth grade. My original post was intended to provide one perspective to the OP by rephrasing her question, from "How to get into XYZ school" to "What's the right time to switch schools if my daughter is happy where she is?"

As children grow up, the lines of authority naturally begin to blur. With a first grade applicant, nearly every parent would make the school decision (accepting that they will listen to their child's view of her experience on a visit and so forth). On the other end, most parents today allow their rising ninth-graders to make the school decision — absent any strong objection, or "veto" of particular schools, by the parents — an acknowledgement of growing maturity and faith in our children's judgment, obviously. In the middle it's a little murky. Some reasonable adults will allow their sixth graders to make those decisions; other reasonable adults retain decision-making authority.

But the word "your" in the quotation above makes me uneasy. In sixth grade it may be "your" decision — i.e., the parents', though it's a little blurry — but in eighth grade the OP's daughter will be able to contribute much more meaningfully. That exercise in itself is enormously beneficial to a teenager's development overall and to her schooling in particular.

I may be reading incorrectly, but the "one-itis" involved in this process for some families (we MUST have our first choice — or we MUST have one of the so-called "Big Three") simply does not help children. It puts the locus for success on the school rather than the student, the outcome rather than the process. Children (all people, in fact) are disempowered when success depends more on things they cannot control than things they can. If a student doesn't get in to one of her parents' choices it signifies a failure — again, in an area where the student has limited control. Even if it's not stated explicitly, children are well aware of the failure involved if the family discussion has involved "Harvard-Yale-Princeton" for a dozen years.

A more effective message is: Wherever you go to college or high school (and that goes triple for this area) you will find more opportunities than you can possibly engage. Your success will depend on how well you take advantage of the opportunities that appeal most to you, how you cope with setbacks and mistakes, how you nurture your passions, how you treat others, and how you use your strengths to compensate for your weaknesses. College, or even high school, is not the "end game." There is a mountain of research on the reasons children benefit from focus on the process rather than the outcome. Po Bronson, Wendy Mogel, and Carol Dweck are among my favorites on the subject, but put as briefly as possible: Praise children for their hard work, not their GPAs or their college acceptance letters.

A bit of a pet issue for me, admittedly, but one I hope parents will continue to consider.

Peter (who graduated from his THIRD-choice college)
_____________________

Disclaimer: The anonymity here makes me uncomfortable; it's easy to be uninformed, personal, or simply mean-spirited if people don't identify themselves. For that reason, I have an account so you know whose words you're reading. I have more than 20 years' experience as a teacher and administrator in independent schools, and I hope I can be helpful to some folks. If you don't like something I've said, you're in good company — there's a long line of past students ahead of you. If you want to chat further, please feel free to contact me offline: peter <at> arcpd <dot> com

Thanks a lot for this great advice. It really makes sense and you are right, the benefits she will get for being "queen of the hill" as you said will be with her for a long time and will give her confidence for the years ahead. It is rare to find such sincere and well intencioned advice here, so again, many thanks! I think you convinced me to stay.

You're welcome, and you're very kind; thanks.

I assume it was clear that my posting had nothing to do with Holton, a school where I've been many, many times. On the contrary, I admire their approach and I've often counseled girls to apply. If your daughter ends up there for high school, I have every confidence that she'll have a wonderful four years.

Peter

Anonymous wrote:Peter - Thank you. I feel like you should send me an invoice for the therapy. I'm OP. I'm not angry. But I also don't let things that are within my control go unremarked on, if I can help it. Some would call that 'being a busybody', others may not have the time to deal with these annoyances and are glad that someone else handles it.

She's taking advantage of her control and dominance over 8 & 9 year olds. It's a step too far. I don't doubt that she's a committed educator (and has been for 20+ years - she's not new to this), but she leaves a film of fear at the end of the day. It's very different from 2nd grade which was all sunshine & daisies.

But you're right about kids being resilient. He's OK. Not overly hurt. But is sometimes hurt. That's why I feel like I should at least make some comments that can be reflected upon. BUT - she's an old dog and I doubt that anything I say will change any behavior.

And - to the PPs about the homework. We are in a new afternoon routine as of the new year, so he was rushed and forgot his math workbook. I think it's OK to drop him at school early the next morning to finish an assignment. It's what real people would do to solve their own oversights. Homework completion is rarely an issue. I just used that as the example of what prompted the yelling this week.

I find it challenging to understand the texture of a situation without being involved in it, and I'm surprised by how many people in this forum make pronouncements with such certainty. I've worked with parents who become very upset over the routine-give-and-take of sixth graders, and I've worked with parents who have brought to my attention significant issues that I'd missed for any number of reasons. Spoiler: I found it easier to reach happy outcomes with people who assumed my intentions were good, and when I did my best to remember that about others.

I agree completely that you're right to address it. I hope it was clear that I did not mean to discourage that. Rather I meant to offer some suggestions about how it might happen most effectively from the school's perspective, and it sounds like you read those in the spirit in which I intended them. Thanks for that. I was always grateful for the parents who raised real issues in a thoughtful way and helped me to understand them, but administrators are human too: defensive, eager to be liked, protective of our "flock," and sometimes a little sleep-deprived! Ultimately it helps me to remember that we all want the same things, and we are all imperfect in pursuing them.

As for my therapy: I'm glad to see my work has now cured you of all emotional frailties. I'm not proud — let me know where to send the invoice!

Peter

Anonymous wrote:Our teacher got worse after I spoke to her and the Head of School did nothing. We pulled DC mid year. Just think of how your child feels with that teacher all day, 5 days a week, AND you are paying for that? Certainly try to work it out with the school but keep fighting if they don't help your son out. Peter (above poster) might need to go to a safe room and play with some play doh!

Best advice I've gotten all week. Send me the address!

Anonymous wrote:My DD is at the moment in a very good private that goes up to 8th grade. We are interested in Holton Arms as a posible school for her after her current school. Would it be easier to apply to enter at 6th grade or in 9th grade. DD is happy in her current school so I am inclined to let her stay until 8th grade but worry about about the chances for that particular school. Any thoughts?

There is a lot of value to finishing something, and your daughter will likely reap a lot of benefit from being "queen of the hill" in eighth grade at her K-8. That's very hard for a middle schooler to get in a K-12 school. (I've worked in both.) She'll also have the thrill of graduation, a rite of passage and an achievement at a critical time for kids, i.e., early adolescence.

Perhaps the strongest reason to stay is that grades 7 and 8 are the years in which almost all kids (especially girls) experience enormous growth in self-awareness. That's not merely incidental; a child who is strongly self-aware is much better equipped to participate in the process of selecting her school than a younger child is. In my last year in a school, a family was in exactly the same position you're in. I encouraged them to consider the advantages of staying, and they decided their daughter would. She finished last year, and the family told me they (and she) were thrilled they finished the process, and how eagerly she dove into the high school search process.

The girl was offered a spot at every school to which she applied, and she's now old enough to apply that success to her college search in four years. I can't even count how many families told me that their college searches were unremarkable because their kids felt so confident as a result of their high school search experience. A sixth-grader is very unlikely to transfer her experience in the same way six years later — both because she's not as self-aware, and because it's a longer time between events.

There are reasons to apply in grade 6, but I think the case is stronger to wait — ESPECIALLY if she's happy where she is. In my experience, there are seldom, if ever, advantages in terms of numbers in the admission pools. Your experience, of course, may differ.

Good luck!
Peter
_____________________

Disclaimer: The anonymity here makes me uncomfortable; it's easy to be uninformed, personal, or simply mean-spirited if people don't identify themselves. For that reason, I have an account so you know whose words you're reading. I have more than 20 years' experience as a teacher and administrator in independent schools, and I hope I can be helpful to some folks. If you don't like something I've said, you're in good company — there's a long line of past students ahead of you. If you want to chat further, please feel free to contact me offline: peter <at> arcpd <dot> com

Anonymous wrote:It's not only harming my kid-- it harms the entire class when the top 10% and top 20% are tiny and such strong students (students strong than my daughter!) are excluded. It's just pointless and one of those carryover things nobody cares enough to stop and think why do we do this.

I'm sorry you're in this position; it's hard to reconcile these disconnects and frustrating to live through them.

Class rank is part of a school's culture — it is a logical element of an environment that sees education, at least in part, as an enterprise in which students compete against each other academically. I'm not saying that can't be done without ranking (many competitive independent schools don't rank), just that it's all part of the same cloth. There is a case to be made for that kind of environment, and many smart, reasonable people support it.

There is also a case to made against grades, standardized testing, and other forms of academic competition. Its proponents claim that they have stopped to think about, as you say, "why we do this," and there is strong and growing evidence that competition inhibits academic growth, to say nothing of emotional and social well being. That kind of environment, of course, would be unlikely to support class ranking. Many smart, reasonable people support that approach as well.

The problem here is twofold: First, it's hard to select a school that sees education as a competitive exercise, and then expect that they won't apply that approach to their various modi operandi (see: class rank). Second, it's hard to eliminate one aspect of a school's culture and expect the culture to change fundamentally because that one aspect is undone.

Respectfully, if you don't favor class ranking, I think you might consider whether the school's overall view of education is consistent with your own. If it is, you're never going to agree with any school on everything, so can you tolerate class ranking? If not, well, there's your answer. If you can, you make your peace with one aspect of a great school with which you disagree, just as you do with your job, your house, or your partner. As I've often said to families, there are no "good schools" or "bad schools" — there are only schools that are good matches for kids and families and schools that aren't.

Good luck. I know this kind of dissonance is tough.
Peter
_____________________

Disclaimer: The anonymity here makes me uncomfortable; it's easy to be uninformed, personal, or simply mean-spirited if people don't identify themselves. For that reason, I have an account so you know whose words you're reading. I have more than 20 years' experience as a teacher and administrator in independent schools, and I hope I can be helpful to some folks. If you don't like something I've said, you're in good company — there's a long line of past students ahead of you. If you want to chat further, please feel free to contact me offline: peter <at> arcpd <dot> com

Anonymous wrote:We have applied to one school but just wondering, without doing a ton of research now at the last minute, where else has third grade openings? TIA

You might look at DC School Hub. They often post openings after the admission deadlines have passed.

Anonymous wrote:My DS has a difficult teacher. Many say mean. She yells at kids for misbehavior across the room. She yelled at him for doing last night's math homework this morning before school started. She yelled because she thought he only did part of the social studies homework, when the rest was on another page. He fears her. Not overly, but that's a feeling he has each day.

I have a middle school child, so I've been down this road once already. Is this worth me telling the administration about? I'm sure others have probably had issues with her style before. Are there any mean yellers at your private? If so, can this be fixed?

Reading this brings several thoughts to mind. Perhaps one or more will be helpful.

Effective teachers rarely raise their voices in anger or frustration; "rarely" is about how often, as a division head, I'd tolerate a teacher's yelling. But most teachers who yell aren't child-hating monsters; they are over their heads in a situation and need help to manage it. That also means that aggressive confrontation by an angry parent is likely to lead to a teacher's becoming defensive, which isn't usually helpful. Luckily the OP seems smart and level-headed.

In general, a concern in an organization should be addressed first to the responsible party closest to the concern. (Isn't that how we'd all like to be treated in our workplaces?) I'd send the teacher email and ask for a time to talk. Present your concern as DATA as much as possible — just the facts, not any judgments: "My son tells me that you often yell at him and the other students in the classroom. He said you yelled at him Monday morning for doing his homework before school started." Follow with what you've observed yourself: "He says he's scared you'll yell at him when he comes to school." Ask a completely open-ended question about her view: "Can you tell me more about that from your perspective?"

And then STOP. Let her explain what's going on. If she's silent for a while, do not rush to fill the space. When she replies, listen to her sincerely; see if you can learn anything. Many times I had an upset parent approach me only to find that the student's perspective and the teacher's differed significantly. That offers the basis for a discussion to clear up misunderstandings and build a strong relationship. She may even say, "My goodness, I'm so sorry, I had no idea. I really appreciate your letting me know and I'll try to be more conscious of it." It doesn't always happen that way, but sometimes...

If you cannot find common ground, tell the teacher you're frustrated, and you'd like to meet with her and the lower school head. Reassure her that you know she has your son's best interest in mind (it's a very rare teacher who doesn't), but that you'd like some help to resolve the situation. She might not like that suggestion, but it's way better for her not to like your approach than to think you're selling her out by going over her head. Don't start with an administrator, but don't rule out involving one either.

I know this might sound like an overly soft, New Age-y approach to some people. (If you only knew me, haha.) That's because school administrators are usually disposed to moving situations forward, rather than simply granting a parent license to flap her arms and say, "Look at me, I'm SO angry!" There's always time to get angry if you must — but once you've crossed that line, it's hard to reel it in, so I think it's worth trying not to go there if you can avoid it. None of us as parents wants to be judged in the moments we're frustrated over our children, and the OP sounds like an eminently reasonable person.

Aside: For those interested in the topic of confrontation without antagonism, Susan Scott's book, Fierce Conversations, is something of a go-to for lots of school people — and real people too!

Finally, remember that children are almost endlessly resilient. In a year or two, in the worst case, your son will remember third grade as "that year with the teacher who yelled a lot." (Mine was fourth grade. I survived her. But the 11th grade English teacher who hated me — now he left REAL scars!) Your son won't be damaged permanently and he will likely even learn some valuable coping skills he can apply when he has a coach or a landlord or a professor or a boss who's a yeller. I don't know how tough this situation is, but unless your son is weeping every other day, reassure him that he'll get through it. And then model getting through it for him — i.e., don't panic or over-react if you can help it. Struggles are valuable and necessary; if we shield our kids from them they won't build the skills they'll need later, when parents can no longer intervene.

My two cents. Plus another four or five. Sorry to go on so long; these situations are almost always multi-dimensional.
Peter

_____________________

Disclaimer: The anonymity here makes me uncomfortable; it's easy to be uninformed, personal, or simply mean-spirited if people don't identify themselves. For that reason, I have an account so you know whose words you're reading. I have more than 20 years' experience as a teacher and administrator in independent schools, and I hope I can be helpful to some folks. If you don't like something I've said, you're in good company — there's a long line of past students ahead of you. If you want to chat further, please feel free to contact me offline: peter <at> arcpd <dot> com

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The Catholic High Schools definitely talk mainly to ensure each parochial student gets at least one acceptance. Although I can't prove this it seems to me that also talk about FA so one school doesn't outbid the others especially for athletes.

I've talked to representatives at two K-8 schools that we are applying to and it's clear that they help the H.S.'s sort this out. One flat out told me she has had conversations with HS letting them know which kids are only interested in one school and which would be happy at a couple of schools. Another school clearly "directs" students to an appropriate "first choice" where they are likely to get in based on their academic records.

I may have misinterpreted the original note. I thought the question was, "Do different high schools talk to each other about their ninth-grade applicants?" That's the question I was answering yesterday; it's the question on which the appearance or reality of collusion is a potential problem.

The question you seem to be raising is, "Do the middle school heads (or other out-placement directors) at K-8 schools talk to the admission officers at the high schools where the eighth graders are applying?" The answer to that is an unqualified yes. I was the MS head at a K-8 and every year I met with or spoke to almost every admission office where our students applied. I saw my job vis-a-vis other schools as presenting our students in their best light. I believe I developed a reputation over many years as an honest and enthusiastic advocate — I loved our kids and wanted them to get in everywhere, but I wouldn't misrepresent anybody.

With families, I see my job, in part, as one of delivering honest information based on a lot of experience. I'd never say to a family, "You can't apply to that school," but I do tell them honestly whether I think it's a long shot based on my experience. I've found that people can handle disappointing news if it's presented straight and non-judgmentally, and I worked hard to develop ways to do that. Obviously I did (and still do) many other things in the process, but I always tried to start from the most honest place I could. If I misrepresent a student one year, who's going to believe me the next year? With very few exceptions (and I've tried to learn from those), I've received positive feedback from the families and admission officers with whom I've interacted.

I hope that's helpful.
Peter

_____________________

Disclaimer: The anonymity here makes me uncomfortable; it's easy to be uninformed, personal, or simply mean-spirited if people don't identify themselves. For that reason, I have an account so you know whose words you're reading. I have more than 20 years' experience as a teacher and administrator in independent schools, and I hope I can be helpful to some folks. If you don't like something I've said, you're in good company — there's a long line of past students ahead of you. If you want to chat further, please feel free to contact me offline: peter <at> arcpd <dot> com

Anonymous wrote:The Catholic High Schools definitely talk mainly to ensure each parochial student gets at least one acceptance. Although I can't prove this it seems to me that also talk about FA so one school doesn't outbid the others especially for athletes.

That could be the case; I have some experience with the ADW (Archdiocese of Washington) schools but not as much as with independents. I wonder if they take a different approach to financial aid because all of it is cleared through a central agency, rather than being allocated independently by school. About half of the ADW high schools use the HSPT (High School Placement Test) administered by the ADW; the other half don't require it and will accept the SSAT or ISEE. There's more information here:

http://adw.org/applying-catholic-high-school/

By the way, as recently as a few years ago the ADW schools used to permit permit applications to only TWO diocesan schools in a given year, but I can't tell from their site if that's still the case. Does anybody have more recent information?

Peter

_____________________

Disclaimer: The anonymity here makes me uncomfortable; it's easy to be uninformed, personal, or simply mean-spirited if people don't identify themselves. For that reason, I have an account so you know whose words you're reading. I have more than 20 years' experience as a teacher and administrator in independent schools, and I hope I can be helpful to some folks. If you don't like something I've said, you're in good company — there's a long line of past students ahead of you. If you want to chat further, please feel free to contact me offline: peter <at> arcpd <dot> com

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Peter, thank you for your clarification - does that mean it's good to tell a school that this school is my DC's first choice? If the ADs all talk to each other, and the favorite school doesn't accept my DC, the other school may be unwilling to be the #2 or #3 choice? If the Ads don't really talk with each other, it's good to let the #1 choice school know that if accepted we would definitely go?

I'm not Peter (although I agreed with his post), but DEFINITELY tell one school that it is the first-choice school if in fact you have a preference. They don't share that type of information with other schools, and it can help in the admissions committee room. (I was actually surprised to be told this by a friend in admissions but it was said unequivocally.) What I would not do -- and it doesn't sound like you are suggesting this -- is to write a 'first choice' letter to multiple schools.

Not being Peter is well known to be a HUGE handicap! (Can my teenagers come live with you? They might prefer it.) Okay, okay, don't answer at night, I know.

Schools want to be your first choice. It helps them calculate yield (the percentage of their admission offers that are accepted), which makes it easier to calculate their final numbers more accurately. And, of course, they want families who are MORE enthusiastic about their school, not less. (Duh.)

There's at least one well known school in DC that does not want to be second-choice so much that I've seen them pass on very strong applicants in favor of kids who look less qualified on paper but who have said, "You're my first choice." (Before you pass judgment, the school's reasoning is very well thought-out and, to me at least, legitimate. It might not be what you think.)

The only caveat I'd append to the post quoted above is that I really, really discourage telling a school that it's your first choice if it's not true. Eventually the system you're trying to game is likely to even the score. If you have younger kids it can hurt them, and if your child attends a school that has a lot of applicants in later years, it can compromise the school's standing. It's nice to have a first choice, but it can also be nice to have schools wondering if you'll go elsewhere if they don't attract you. If it's not your first choice, tell them honestly that you really loved your visits and that you're considering two or three at this point. Besides, call me crazy, but I think honesty is a good foundation for a relationship that's going to last four years or more.

Peter

_____________________

Disclaimer: The anonymity here makes me uncomfortable; it's easy to be uninformed, personal, or simply mean-spirited if people don't identify themselves. For that reason, I have an account so you know whose words you're reading. I have more than 20 years' experience as a teacher and administrator in independent schools, and I hope I can be helpful to some folks. If you don't like something I've said, you're in good company — there's a long line of past students ahead of you. If you want to chat further, please feel free to contact me offline: peter <at> arcpd <dot> com