Anonymous wrote:

Muslima wrote:Love how people make blanket statements about Gazans and Palestinians. Gazans love and support the resistance fighting for their liberation, regardless of what any poll says. They are standing with the resistance.....

Why do you claim to speak for them? I cant imagine they are happy that their leaders allow them to be bombed and block access to the bunkers for safety. Or that they support militants fighting from their schools and hospitals. Unless, they are all terrorists and in that case, they are not innocent civilians. You cant have it both way.

I speak for them because though I'm not there, I have family and friends there and that's what they related to me. They stand and support the resistance! You can call them terrorists if you want, anyone who has ever fought for their freedom through history was called a terrorist at some point and some went on to earn Nobel peace prizes. Maybe, one day my grandchildren will live in a world where a Hamas leader will get a Nobel peace prize, but a girl can dream right?

Anonymous wrote:

Some of the deadliest and most violent conflicts of our times have been the result of not religion, but secular based political ideologies. WW1, and WW2 were not based on religion, but competing political worldviews, with Nazism, Fascism, and Communism. After the end of the World War 2 the conflict was then fought between the two secular political ideologies of Communism, VS the Liberal Democratic-Capitalistic west, a conflict we all known as the Cold War which left millions of people dead and injured through proxy battles fought between the west and the Soviet Union.

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Muslima wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I just hink of our trip to Hawaii, sitting on a beach next to a muslim family. The husband and sons were enjoying the beach in their biard shorts. The wife and daughters were covered nearly head to toe in heavy black, long sleeves, heavy head scarf, sweltering in the July sun.

Sitting on a beach in the middle of paradise, those poor ladies looked sweaty and miserable. The guys looked like they were having a blast.

I'm not Muslim, but having traveled to a Muslim country where I dressed in hijab and abaya, I can say that I was actually cooler than I would have been with the sun on exposed skin.

Then why aren't the men dressed like that too, so that they too can be so comfortable?

Devout Muslim men typically are covered. I actually find it odd that the men in the family you saw were so exposed. My childhood Muslim guy friend and his Dad would never have been without a t-shirt on the beach.

Way to miss the point.

If it's so comfortable to be covered from heat to toe -- not in a t shirt -- why aren't Muslim men covered from head to toe, whether they are devout or not? Obviously no one would choose to dress that way.

WE, Muslim women make that choice, please STOP speaking for us. I made choice to wear the hijab at the age of 25, CHOICE!!!!!! I have lived my life both uncovered and covered .I was a highly educated, independent woman living alone, woke up one day and put a scarf on my head, by my own free will, my life, my choice, please allow me that freedom. Thank you!!!

There are some women who don't want to make that choice and they are threatened because of it....that is wrong. There are Christians who do not want to convert to Islam and they are threatened and that is wrong.

I find Americans very open and tolerant compared to other places in our world. Not perfect but most of us are trying. I think if you and other Muslims want to change the perception of islam, you need to take more risks and speak out about the oppression and injustices suffered by those who do not choose Islam. I know Isis is extreme but even before Isis was around, there were muslim women who sought a different life and were denied this.

We all want peace but you can't have peace without freedoms. I have no problem with your covering. Your cartoon ignores that some women who were raised muslim do not want to cover, but they are nervous not to bc of the consequences they suffer. Where is the virtue in that?

Well I think it is unfair for you to blame the religion for what people choose to do. Muslim women have the right to choose to cover or not. I have lived in both Muslims and Non Muslim countries, I have never ever met a Muslim woman who was forced to cover her head, not one. Ironically, the only cases I know of are sensationalized stories from the media. Does it mean they don't exist? Of course not, but that's not the norm, just like women are battered, abused and killed daily in the US by men in their lives. Would it be fair to say that is the norm for all american women ? never said Muslim women are not oppressed. I think all women in the world are oppressed when living in a patriarchal society. My point was that people here in the U.S. generalize other cultures into very belittling and untrue stereotypes, while failing to acknowledge their own hypocrisy. I'm tired of being called a terrorist (jokingly except for one incidence, but it still hurts). This one dimensional view point, that Muslim women of all colors all suffer, and American/European women don't, is in itself oppressive to those Muslim women. They are denied their full humanity by being reduced to one aspect of their lives. And while everyone so self-righteously asserts that hijab & burqa are oppressive, many of those people are unaware that their tax money goes towards the murdering of those very same women that they claim to care so much about. My desire if not for the oppression and murdering of women in Islamic countries to go unnoticed, my desire is that we also shift the focus to ourselves, once in awhile......

Love how people make blanket statements about Gazans and Palestinians. Gazans love and support the resistance fighting for their liberation, regardless of what any poll says. They are standing with the resistance.....

Anonymous wrote:If you read the above quotation from the New Testament relating to women covering their heads, you will see that it relates specifically to women in Church. Some denominations do still encourage or require women to cover their heads in Church (some Eastern Orthodox denominations, some Protestant denominations). Covering the head in Church used to be more common (e.g., mantillas in Catholic Churches and ladies wearing hats to Church among Protestants). A very few Protestants interpret this to mean women shoukd cover their heads at all times (e.g., some denominations of Mennonites and the Amish).

Most Christians, even very conservative ones, see the head covering injunctions of St. Paul as injunctions that were made against very specific practices of the society in which he was speaking. Thus - they are not applicable today.

The whole point of Mary's pregnancy is that God entered history at a specific time and place. Mary was a woman of her time and yes she did cover her head, but that does not imply that we are required to do that. As Christians, we are not subject to the old law, but Mary was as a Jewish woman.

May God bless us all with increased understanding!

Why do the nuns cover their heads outside of church if the interpretation is its just for church? (Just curious). Thanks for the explanation btw

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I just hink of our trip to Hawaii, sitting on a beach next to a muslim family. The husband and sons were enjoying the beach in their biard shorts. The wife and daughters were covered nearly head to toe in heavy black, long sleeves, heavy head scarf, sweltering in the July sun.

Sitting on a beach in the middle of paradise, those poor ladies looked sweaty and miserable. The guys looked like they were having a blast.

I'm not Muslim, but having traveled to a Muslim country where I dressed in hijab and abaya, I can say that I was actually cooler than I would have been with the sun on exposed skin.

Then why aren't the men dressed like that too, so that they too can be so comfortable?

Devout Muslim men typically are covered. I actually find it odd that the men in the family you saw were so exposed. My childhood Muslim guy friend and his Dad would never have been without a t-shirt on the beach.

Way to miss the point.

If it's so comfortable to be covered from heat to toe -- not in a t shirt -- why aren't Muslim men covered from head to toe, whether they are devout or not? Obviously no one would choose to dress that way.

WE, Muslim women make that choice, please STOP speaking for us. I made choice to wear the hijab at the age of 25, CHOICE!!!!!! I have lived my life both uncovered and covered .I was a highly educated, independent woman living alone, woke up one day and put a scarf on my head, by my own free will, my life, my choice, please allow me that freedom. Thank you!!!

Anonymous wrote:1. The hijab helps others to distinguish who's a believer and who's not. Why then should that matter in the eyes of God whether others know my belief system? This is essentially saying that God is fine if we judge each other. divisive? I'd say yes.

Up until the end of the nineteenth century, a respectable Western woman covered her head, that was the norm. This was also true in pre-Islamic Arabia, women of a certain rank covered their hair. This verse is referring to that, asking Women to differentiate themselves, again the verse is talking to the "Believing women" . No, you cant judge people, only God can be the judge but you know better than I that we are being judged every day by how we dress. It would be am intellectual lie to deny it. Every society has a dress code. You can't show up at an interview wearing shorts and a tankini.

2. Women are less likely to ogle than men are. I love this. Because men have uncontrollable urges, rather than force them to control those urges, we force women to wear oppressive items of clothing. Only the woman's husband, brother, sons, grandsons and nephews can see her breasts (covered obviously).

wrong. Only the women's family can see her uncovered, nobody said anything about breasts. The ogle comment was mine. You can deny it as much as you want . Is it that hard to understand men are more visual than women?The porn industry doesn't exist because men get aroused by intelligence and emotional connection does it? Do you think men masturbate to thoughts of that warm conversation you just had? Or how he was able to pour his guts out to you?
Do advertisers falsely believe (through study and science!) that men's attention can be attracted using slender young attractive females? Why not just use fat frumpy women?

3. Men can walk around without a shirt, yet can't wear gold and silk. (b/c gold and silk are flashy on men? draw attention to them?)

The because comment is your interpretation. Men don't wear gold and silk because that's what the Prophet saw said, rust honor was given to women. Why? We don't know but can guess it had to do with humility.

I appreciate the effort you put into your posts, but in 2014, I certainly put no faith in the "wisdom" found in an ancient text.

And that's your right to believe that and my right to believe otherwise and that's what makes me a Muslim, it is a choice!

Anonymous wrote:The Christian view on this comment from one of the preceding posters:

It is true that men don’t have to cover their heads, but there is a dress code for them, as well. Men must at least be covered from the navel to the knees with loose fitting clothing. The rules for men are different because women are less likely to ogle men than the other way around. Men also shouldn't cut their beards.

According to Our Lord:

If your right eye causes you to stumble, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. And if your right hand causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell. Matthew 5:29-30

Here we see that it is the responsibility of each individual (male or female) to control his or her own urges. If I am "ogling" a member of the opposite sex, I need to work on myself, not expect the object of my ogling to fix him or herself.

I pray for all of us that, with the Lord's help, we can take responsibility for our own actions.

Maybe you missed the verse from the Quran that I cited but you can go back and read my previous post it starts with men by asking men to lower their gaze and guard their modesty. It's not the Duty of a woman to make sure the man doesn't ogle at her.

Also the Bible asks women to cover their hair as well and says : "if a woman does not cover her head, she might as well have her hair cut off; but if it is a disgrace for a woman to have her hair cut off or her head shaved, then she should cover her head." So why don't Christian women cover their hair?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I just hink of our trip to Hawaii, sitting on a beach next to a muslim family. The husband and sons were enjoying the beach in their biard shorts. The wife and daughters were covered nearly head to toe in heavy black, long sleeves, heavy head scarf, sweltering in the July sun.

Sitting on a beach in the middle of paradise, those poor ladies looked sweaty and miserable. The guys looked like they were having a blast.

Hmmmm. The veiled Muslims I see at Ocean City go swimming. Now, is wouldn't want to do that fully veiled, but they seemed just fine. Maybe the women you saw don't know how to swim?

I used to think these pictures were a joke.

apparently not?

Women don't swim in their abayas, they swim in something called the burquini, made especially for swimming in a material that protects against sub, uv and doesn't expand in water

Anonymous wrote:

Muslima wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Muslima wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I hate the hijab, the niqab and the burqa, although I don't think (might be wrong) it stems from the Quran.

oppressive forms of clothing

same could be said for Jewish dress codes for women (tznuit)

Really? I love them. There is nothing more beautiful to me than a veiled woman. I'm not too hot on the burqa but I love the hijab & niqab. I don't think of them as "Oppressive' at all, to the contrary I find them liberating. It's all about perception....

That is an awesome illustration of the narrow cognitive box that western people live in. Especially those who "live" their lives and "see" the world through the lens of US media.

I always read stories of how Muslim Women are oppressed with their hijabs and niqabs, and have been told in person how sorry people felt for my oppressed self when I wear the hijab. The poor, oppressed Muslim woman, covered from head to toe, has no free will, no rights what-so-ever and is blindly blackmailed into following this backward desert religion, dominated by men and seen almost as a slave trapped in the four walls of her home. To be honest, there is a heavy dose of paternalism and imperialism that comes along, because no one ever asks Muslim women what we think.

Muslim women who choose to wear the hijab are not oppressed, but consider themselves liberated. For many women, the adornment of the headscarf is the representation of the antithesis of female objectification and subjugation in a social sphere where the female body is, essentially, a capitalistic transaction. Women’s bodies are used to sell us, nearly everything, and this undoubtedly has an effect on how women engage with their own bodies and how men and women both engage with one another. Also, you have to understand that everything in our religion (islam) aims to free us from the chains of our egos, from vanity and from self-consumption, all through the belief in one God and through worshipping Him (and how this belief plays out in our daily interactions and self-pursuits). And some Christian (catholic nuns) and Jewish women do cover their hair too, but they are never seen as oppressed, so I don't understand the double standard. For ex, I've never seen a picture of the Virgin Mary with her head not covered but I don't think anyone would look at her as an oppressed woman.

As a non-practicing Catholic, I am aware of the habits. I had a cousin who was a nun in Italy.

still oppressive in my eyes, as I think religion is misogynistic

If Islam "aims to free" you of ego, then it should "free" men the same way.

You can spin it however you like, but there is no equality btw the sexes. I asked about the Quran. While certain items are mentioned (niqab perhaps?), they aren't a "requirement," correct? So if that IS the case, who suggested that women cover?

And the cartoon, while somewhat "entertaining," is nothing more than a depiction of extremes.

So it's not about viewing life through a Western lens; it's about truth. And what's appropriate for men should be appropriate for women.

Ok, let me clarify it a bit. Niqab(face cover) is not a requirement in Islam , hijab (headscarf) is a requirement. In the Qur’an, the direct commandment for post-pubescent women to cover their hair and neck is i:

"Tell the believing men to lower their gaze and be modest. That is purer for them. Lo! Allah is Aware of what they do. And tell the believing women to lower their gaze and be modest, and to display of their adornment only that which is apparent, and to draw their veils over their bosoms, and not to reveal their adornment save to their own husbands or fathers or husbands fathers, or their sons or their husbands' sons, or their brothers or their brothers' sons or sisters sons, or their women..."

You can also read the other verse about the same point, which is verse number 59 in Surah 33. It may be translated as:
{O Prophet! Tell thy wives and thy daughters and the women of the believers to draw their cloaks close round them [when they go abroad]. That will be better, that so they may be recognized and not annoyed. Allah is ever Forgiving, Merciful.}

This indicates that one of the reasons for hijab is to distinguish the believing woman from the non-believing. This relates to your second question concerning the logic behind hijab.

It is true that men don’t have to cover their heads, but there is a dress code for them, as well. Men must at least be covered from the navel to the knees with loose fitting clothing. The rules for men are different because women are less likely to ogle men than the other way around. Men also shouldn't cut their beards.

the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) also said:"These two [gold and silk] are forbidden for the males of my ummah and permissible for the females.” so Muslim Men can't wear silk or gold. So yeh the freeing of the ego is both for men & women but of course men and women will have a different dress code, just like in any normal society, a man covering his head would not do anything as far as modesty is concerned. Throughout history, in every society, honorable women did cover their head, for ex in Arabia, before Islam women of high lineage covered their heads, only servants woke around with bare heads . Besides following modest dress codes appropriate to the different natures of a man and woman, both Muslim men and women should abide by a certain modest and respectful code of conduct.

Thank you PP, looks like documentary is actually available here for free http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KatiezCAAtY

Anonymous wrote:

Muslima wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I hate the hijab, the niqab and the burqa, although I don't think (might be wrong) it stems from the Quran.

oppressive forms of clothing

same could be said for Jewish dress codes for women (tznuit)

Really? I love them. There is nothing more beautiful to me than a veiled woman. I'm not too hot on the burqa but I love the hijab & niqab. I don't think of them as "Oppressive' at all, to the contrary I find them liberating. It's all about perception....

That is an awesome illustration of the narrow cognitive box that western people live in. Especially those who "live" their lives and "see" the world through the lens of US media.

I always read stories of how Muslim Women are oppressed with their hijabs and niqabs, and have been told in person how sorry people felt for my oppressed self when I wear the hijab. The poor, oppressed Muslim woman, covered from head to toe, has no free will, no rights what-so-ever and is blindly blackmailed into following this backward desert religion, dominated by men and seen almost as a slave trapped in the four walls of her home. To be honest, there is a heavy dose of paternalism and imperialism that comes along, because no one ever asks Muslim women what we think.

Muslim women who choose to wear the hijab are not oppressed, but consider themselves liberated. For many women, the adornment of the headscarf is the representation of the antithesis of female objectification and subjugation in a social sphere where the female body is, essentially, a capitalistic transaction. Women’s bodies are used to sell us, nearly everything, and this undoubtedly has an effect on how women engage with their own bodies and how men and women both engage with one another. Also, you have to understand that everything in our religion (islam) aims to free us from the chains of our egos, from vanity and from self-consumption, all through the belief in one God and through worshipping Him (and how this belief plays out in our daily interactions and self-pursuits). And some Christian (catholic nuns) and Jewish women do cover their hair too, but they are never seen as oppressed, so I don't understand the double standard. For ex, I've never seen a picture of the Virgin Mary with her head not covered but I don't think anyone would look at her as an oppressed woman.

Anonymous wrote:I hate the hijab, the niqab and the burqa, although I don't think (might be wrong) it stems from the Quran.

oppressive forms of clothing

same could be said for Jewish dress codes for women (tznuit)

Really? I love them. There is nothing more beautiful to me than a veiled woman. I'm not too hot on the burqa but I love the hijab & niqab. I don't think of them as "Oppressive' at all, to the contrary I find them liberating. It's all about perception....

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