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Anonymous wrote:Muslima wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:
Contrary to you, I have a husband, children, and a job. I am more than happy to answer every question, but after my responsibilities are taken care of. I will be back with a few great links later.
Yes, please answer the following questions, which posters have been asking you for pages and pages.
(1) Does the Quran, or does the Quran not, require Muslims to kill those who leave the faith? You denied this, but two people have posted quotes from the Quran that suggest you're not being entirely truthful here.
(2) Does the Quran, or does the Quran not, permit Muslim soldiers to rape female captives?
(3) Does the Quran, or does the Quran not, require Muslims to try to convert non-Muslims? Again, you denied this categorically, but someone posted a quote from the Quran that suggests you're not being entirely truthful here.
There are several other things, but that's enough for now. After so many pages of obfuscation, it feels like, if you answer these questions, it will be a miracle.
PS. I'm off to talk to my husband and my younger child, my older child having gone off to college. I've finished my work for the day. But thanks for the unnecessary condescension!
Well here's your miracle, then. Your questions are not unusual. They are often the questions of either people who genuinely misunderstand Islam and want to learn more, or they are the questions of people who make it their mission to eradicate Islam by intentionally vilifying it regardless of what clarification they receive. Since with the previous link I posted of the scholar Hamza Yusuf, you accused me of shopping around to simply find a more palatable version of Islam, I'm posting this link of another scholar that is perhaps more to your liking. This is a link of a highly reputable Islamic scholar, Dr. Jamal Badawi of Halifax, Nova Scotia. It answers questions (1) and (3).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p4D9aB21DwM
It would be wise for you to watch it in its entirety. Contact him directly if you need further clarification. He is very accessible.
They are not interested in an honest and educated discussion about Islam and what Muslims believe, that's why I recused myself from the discussion. Jummah Mubarak to you
You were sooooo right! I plan to post these regularly on new threads if only to dispel myths about Islam that these extremist evangelical groups try to spread. I was never into this kind of stuff before but I plan to write a few articles and see if I can get them published in non Muslim magazines. This thread helped me to recognize that Muslims need to do more work to disseminate the truth about their religion.
Jummuah mubarak to you too!! Great " meeting" you!
I think that would be a good thing. It was refreshing reading you as well! I used to blog and write a lot about Islam and it was well received for the most part. I think Islam is the most misunderstood religion in the world. Not just by non-Muslims, but by some Muslims as well. Mainly, non-Muslims information on Islam is based on ignorant and islamophobic sources. And many Muslims are born into this religion without anyone really explaining it to them. And unfortunately thre actions and behavior of both groups reflect their lack of understanding. And finally you have people who twist the verses of the Qur'an in order to spread their hate. The end result is a lot of confused people and a lot of confusion about what Islam really teaches. In the end though, speak your heart. Many people won't understand. But that's okay. Your message wasn't meant for them. It will reach those whom it was.
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:
Contrary to you, I have a husband, children, and a job. I am more than happy to answer every question, but after my responsibilities are taken care of. I will be back with a few great links later.
Yes, please answer the following questions, which posters have been asking you for pages and pages.
(1) Does the Quran, or does the Quran not, require Muslims to kill those who leave the faith? You denied this, but two people have posted quotes from the Quran that suggest you're not being entirely truthful here.
(2) Does the Quran, or does the Quran not, permit Muslim soldiers to rape female captives?
(3) Does the Quran, or does the Quran not, require Muslims to try to convert non-Muslims? Again, you denied this categorically, but someone posted a quote from the Quran that suggests you're not being entirely truthful here.
There are several other things, but that's enough for now. After so many pages of obfuscation, it feels like, if you answer these questions, it will be a miracle.
PS. I'm off to talk to my husband and my younger child, my older child having gone off to college. I've finished my work for the day. But thanks for the unnecessary condescension!
Well here's your miracle, then. Your questions are not unusual. They are often the questions of either people who genuinely misunderstand Islam and want to learn more, or they are the questions of people who make it their mission to eradicate Islam by intentionally vilifying it regardless of what clarification they receive. Since with the previous link I posted of the scholar Hamza Yusuf, you accused me of shopping around to simply find a more palatable version of Islam, I'm posting this link of another scholar that is perhaps more to your liking. This is a link of a highly reputable Islamic scholar, Dr. Jamal Badawi of Halifax, Nova Scotia. It answers questions (1) and (3).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p4D9aB21DwM
It would be wise for you to watch it in its entirety. Contact him directly if you need further clarification. He is very accessible.
They are not interested in an honest and educated discussion about Islam and what Muslims believe, that's why I recused myself from the discussion. Jummah Mubarak to you
Anonymous wrote:I'm sorry, but you haven't answered a single question, as you had promised. You haven't provided a single figure for converts (although you do gloat about women converts).
Instead, you give give us more links to Yusuf, the oher PP's favorite theologian. (Coincidence? I'm thinking not. It really does seem like you two are one and the same.)
More flowery language. Lots of accusing people of hating Islam for even asking questions.
This is a waste of time. I'm off to work.
The facts of Islam are presented in this thread, thanks to posters who bothered to write them out.
I am glad you think Islam is flowery
Happy Friday!!!!!!!
OMG People, why so much nastiness towards that Muslim poster and Islam in general? Is your life so sad that you resort to trolling and making up stories online to feel better about yourself? I have "recused" myself from this discussion once I realized no true honest conversation could be had since you refuse any evidence given about what Muslims believe but choose to misquote verses as you wish, scholars that nobody ever heard of and talk about wahabism ( less than 5% of muslims are wahabis btw) as if 1.6 billion Muslims believed in the things you are saying! You are clearly not interesting in "learning" about Islam or having an intelligent discussion about it. I am just writing back to clear some of the things you keep repeating ( btw my silence shouldn't imply consent, I usually stop responding when I see no need to, I have no interest in sterile discussion). Also to the opposite of what you believe I could care less what God you pray to at the end of every day, really I have other things to worry about than trying to convert random anonymous'es on public forums. It is a bit pretentious that you think that Muslims are pissed when they try to convince you about Islam and you deny Islam's claims. Seriously? hum, no, Muslims are pissed when you lie about Islam, misquote its verses and portray whatever fallacies created by your own brain as Islam. Self-imposed ignorance is markedly offensive to others. Muslims won't be judged on whether or not you agree with them, accept Islam or nod when they tell you about their religion, you will be alone in your grave as they will be, so get off of your high horses thinking our happiness is dependent on whether you accept our belief or not!
Ignorance won't take you anywhere. I have said it before and I will say it again, the greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge. You live under the "Illusion" that you have some knowledge of Islam, but clearly you have not, and that is a fact, not an opinion. The majority of these verses you cite are either taken out of context, or misunderstood due to lack of basic knowledge. Quoting Quranic verses without citing the proper context, lying about what's in the Quran ( yes lies, there is nothing in the Quran that states that the punishment for apostasy is death and you have repeated this over and over, this is just one thing that comes to mind), you rely on some cherry-picked crackpot interpretation of verses, whether you've lived with Muslims, befriended Muslims clearly has not taught you anything about Islam because you are as clueless about the religion as someone who's never even heard about the Quran, really my elementary school child has a better understanding of Islam than you do. Whether you like it or not, every verse in the Quran has to be read within the context under which it was revealed, you can't just randomly cite verses of the Quran while completely ignoring the context, that makes you look extremely ignorant.
Every book is to be dealt with on the basis of what is claims and how it is to be understood. The Qur'an is no exception to this. In principle, you can't pluck a phrase or sentence out of an essay and use it in isolation.Any discussion on Qur’anic verses would be meaningless, without a study of the surrounding context. Antagonists of Islam are guilty of such misreading and distortion of Quranic meanings because they ignore the context of the verses, either through sheer negligence or deliberate suppression. By context i mean the collective meaning derived from a group of verses. Instead of taking one verse and citing it out of context, the correct procedure is to look at the verses before and after in order to acquire a proper meaning of what The Quran is saying. Secondly, to understand certain intricate verses, the reader needs to resort to official and authentic commentaries of The Quran. I mean, honestly, there are muslims dedicating their lives to studying the interpretations of the Quran, the least you could do is listen to the consensus instead of your own amateur attempts. Quoting any text out of context is obviously dishonest, so why do you do it? The reason is that it works! When someone has an agenda and they know that if they expose it, it will not be popular, they must find alternative ways. One such way is to use for evidence, backing their argument, text taken out of context and quoted by respectable sources. This impresses the gullible, thus helping the people making those arguments pursue their agendas. It is no wonder that Islamophobes often quote translations of verses of the Quran stripped from their context, so that their listeners or readers would get the wrong impression about what the verse it about and would not be interested in Islam. Few people actually bother to check out the Quran to verify what they heard or read.
Whether you like it or not more than half of new converts to Islam are women. Why do so many women accept Islam? Didn’t they read the Quran and see that top ten list of oppression? Why did the Quran not repulse these women, and on the contrary, attracted them? why supposedly ‘emancipated’ Western women are turning towards a religion that has always been associated with the oppression of women? Are they just dumb sheep following blindly? New Muslim converts to the opposite, attribute the use of intelligent reasoning, reflection and critical thinking when explaining their journey to Islam. Such people cut through the hysteria created by some in the media to view Islam from a critical lens and following the truth thus comes naturally to them as part of this process. How else can one explain the increase in conversions with the increase of anti-Islam rhetoric?
The very fact that you are telling people to not learn Islam from Muslims but from non muslim sources shows again your ignorance. You can not learn the true essence of Islam from them any more than you can lean about Christianity from agnostics or neuroscience from a lawyer. The tragedy is not that people like you exist and are given a voice, it’s that there are many who listen and believe this nonsense. That’s why da`wa (explaining Islam) is so important. Oh btw, you also confused da'wa (explaining Islam,sharing the message) with converting. Even in the Qur'an it has been stated repeatedly that Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) is merely a messenger, and that his duty is merely to convey the message of Islam, he can not guide them/convert them, only Allah can guide people. So yeh, we are not asked to convert anyone, get your facts straight!
Oh and from a Christian source since you indicated all sources of Islam growth were "Muslim".....
But you know, when people have to hate something, that’s the beginning of the problem. To some,Islam is nothing but a code of rules and regulations.But,to those who understand,it is a perfect vision of life and whether you believe in it or not is irrelevant in our love of Islam, to you your religion, to me my religion! Peace!
Ignorance won't take you anywhere. I have said it before and I will say it again, the greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge. You live under the "Illusion" that you have some knowledge of Islam, but clearly you have not, and that is a fact, not an opinion. The majority of these verses you cite are either taken out of context, or misunderstood due to lack of basic knowledge. Quoting Quranic verses without citing the proper context, lying about what's in the Quran ( yes lies, there is nothing in the Quran that states that the punishment for apostasy is death and you have repeated this over and over, this is just one thing that comes to mind), you rely on some cherry-picked crackpot interpretation of verses, whether you've lived with Muslims, befriended Muslims clearly has not taught you anything about Islam because you are as clueless about the religion as someone who's never even heard about the Quran, really my elementary school child has a better understanding of Islam than you do. Whether you like it or not, every verse in the Quran has to be read within the context under which it was revealed, you can't just randomly cite verses of the Quran while completely ignoring the context, that makes you look extremely ignorant.
Every book is to be dealt with on the basis of what is claims and how it is to be understood. The Qur'an is no exception to this. In principle, you can't pluck a phrase or sentence out of an essay and use it in isolation.Any discussion on Qur’anic verses would be meaningless, without a study of the surrounding context. Antagonists of Islam are guilty of such misreading and distortion of Quranic meanings because they ignore the context of the verses, either through sheer negligence or deliberate suppression. By context i mean the collective meaning derived from a group of verses. Instead of taking one verse and citing it out of context, the correct procedure is to look at the verses before and after in order to acquire a proper meaning of what The Quran is saying. Secondly, to understand certain intricate verses, the reader needs to resort to official and authentic commentaries of The Quran. I mean, honestly, there are muslims dedicating their lives to studying the interpretations of the Quran, the least you could do is listen to the consensus instead of your own amateur attempts. Quoting any text out of context is obviously dishonest, so why do you do it? The reason is that it works! When someone has an agenda and they know that if they expose it, it will not be popular, they must find alternative ways. One such way is to use for evidence, backing their argument, text taken out of context and quoted by respectable sources. This impresses the gullible, thus helping the people making those arguments pursue their agendas. It is no wonder that Islamophobes often quote translations of verses of the Quran stripped from their context, so that their listeners or readers would get the wrong impression about what the verse it about and would not be interested in Islam. Few people actually bother to check out the Quran to verify what they heard or read.
Whether you like it or not more than half of new converts to Islam are women. Why do so many women accept Islam? Didn’t they read the Quran and see that top ten list of oppression? Why did the Quran not repulse these women, and on the contrary, attracted them? why supposedly ‘emancipated’ Western women are turning towards a religion that has always been associated with the oppression of women? Are they just dumb sheep following blindly? New Muslim converts to the opposite, attribute the use of intelligent reasoning, reflection and critical thinking when explaining their journey to Islam. Such people cut through the hysteria created by some in the media to view Islam from a critical lens and following the truth thus comes naturally to them as part of this process. How else can one explain the increase in conversions with the increase of anti-Islam rhetoric?
The very fact that you are telling people to not learn Islam from Muslims but from non muslim sources shows again your ignorance. You can not learn the true essence of Islam from them any more than you can lean about Christianity from agnostics or neuroscience from a lawyer. The tragedy is not that people like you exist and are given a voice, it’s that there are many who listen and believe this nonsense. That’s why da`wa (explaining Islam) is so important. Oh btw, you also confused da'wa (explaining Islam,sharing the message) with converting. Even in the Qur'an it has been stated repeatedly that Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) is merely a messenger, and that his duty is merely to convey the message of Islam, he can not guide them/convert them, only Allah can guide people. So yeh, we are not asked to convert anyone, get your facts straight!
Oh and from a Christian source since you indicated all sources of Islam growth were "Muslim".....
Source: http://beyond.org/islam-fastest-growing-religion-world/2014 saw the publication of the 30th annual Annual Status of Global Mission in the International Bulletin of Missionary ReseaIn this, the latest edition, the researchers estimate Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world: 1.81% per year vs. 1.53% for the 20 million Sikhs and 1.29% for Christianity.
But you know, when people have to hate something, that’s the beginning of the problem. To some,Islam is nothing but a code of rules and regulations.But,to those who understand,it is a perfect vision of life and whether you believe in it or not is irrelevant in our love of Islam, to you your religion, to me my religion! Peace!
Anonymous wrote:
My child was screaming and kicking today for her 1st day of K. She really didn't want to stay. She's been in daycare and pre-school since she was 2 so I'm not sure why she developed this new separation anxiety but the teachers had to physically hold her in the classroom as she was trying to escape. Any tips from parents who've experienced this before?
drop them off quickly, say good bye and don't linger. they are usually fine within 5 min of you leaving. the longer you stick around the worse it is for everyone. You can try explaining that it is ok to be nervous and that everyone is nervous when they go to a new place. I do sympathize thought. It is so hard to leave them when they are like that. We went through this when my son entered pre-school and even at 5 he still gets this way when we leave him with a new sitter. He was fine at k drop off today, fingers crossed he has a good day.
That's what I try to do, I try to leave quickly but her dad doesn't have the heart to so he stays and tries to calm her down which I think makes it worse as she still cries when he leaves. I talked to her last night and this morning about it, but she still didn't want to stay once we got in school. I guess what I don't understand is if this is normal behavior for a child who used to go to preschool without any issues. Albeit, she didn't go to preschool this summer as she was traveling but still, it seems like she had a lot of anxiety about starting K and kept saying she didn't want to go or wanted me to stay in the classroom with her.
PERFECTLY normal. I taught K. Had one boy who cried every morning until Mom walked out the door. First day, he even threw up--but was great as soon as parents were gone.
Thanks. Today was better, she was teary bit not balling and screaming like gateau. I'm hoping that things will settle down and be much better by the end of the week
Anonymous wrote:Muslima wrote:
Ugh okay next...> Poor me, Muslim Woman I will just go hide and cry tonight. I had no idea I was living under these dire conditions, thank you so much for enlightening me, who knew??
Are you too scared to admit s that there is a good possibility that Islam is not a bunch of fairy tales and might be a divinely inspired religion?
I'm as Islam neutral as it comes. I am not interested n moving your faith an inch or a foot; what do I care about what an internet stranger believes?
I don't think Islam is divinely inspired but then I don't think any religion is. I want you to know something. You behave like every single unskilled dawwa-giver I met, and I met a lot of them - including my numerous Saudi in-laws. They all go on and on about how fabulous Islam is; when I point out something factual that doesn't seem appealing to me, they come up with all kinds of reasons why black is white and white is black, and then they ask me to agree that Islam is fabulous. When I continue saying that it doesn't seem fabulous to me, they all say, No! You see in your heart that it's fabulous, you just DELIBERATELY don't want to admit it.
I'm like why? Why would I hesitate to admit it? I've told you about all the reasons it doesn't work for me, and I'm not going to suddenly decide that these reasons aren't important any more. I'm not deliberately being anything. You've failed to make a good argument. That's fine; no religion has ever made a good argument to me. But to insist that whoever doesn't see the beauty of Islam MUST be refusing deliberately is just disrespectful. I have no problem with you believing what you believe. But stop trying to make me admit it makes sense or is fabulous. It doesn't. And it isn't, not to me. And that's completely sincere.
Converting people on the internet is not my forte. You do not have to like Islam, you do not have to be a Muslim, really it is a free world, you can believe in whatever you want, you can worship a rat if you want, it's your life! But if you spend countless hours on the internet sharing fallacies about Islam, quoting verses right and left out of context then obviously you are not very secured in whatever it is that you believe. You will never encounter me talking about Bhudhism, Atheism, Christianity, Judaism,...unless I have a question about what a Christian, jewish ect believes, why? Because I am very secured in what I believe and what islam is, so i have zero need of bashing someone else's religion even if I don't believe in it. I might be curious about their beliefs but you won't see me debate what Christians believe or how Bhuddists pray to their God.
Anonymous wrote:Muslima wrote:Anonymous wrote:Muslima wrote:
There isn't a single contradiction in the Quran. I know exactly the verses you are referring to, feel free to cite them and I will give you the story behind each. The Quran wasnt revealed over night but it was revealed in 23 years and verses were revealed according to what was going on at the time and there is a clear explanation of each verse of the Quran. If you want to learn the meaning of verses, you have to read what we call Tafseer of the Quran which will tell you when a verse was revealed, why it was revealed and what the meaning is
My husband - a Saudi Arab - and I refer to the line about Jews allegedly worshipping Ezra as a "big ole Quranic whoops." That's why Jews don't take the Quran seriously. If it could mess up that very basic tenet of Jewish monotheistic belief, what else did it misunderstand?
The Jews call `Uzair a son of Allah, and the Christians call Christ the son of Allah. That is the saying from their mouth; (In this) they are intimate; what the Unbelievers of the old used to say. Allah's curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the truth. [Qur'an 9:30]
I don't like to debate other religions but since you noted this,the Qur’an does not say that all the Jews believe that Ezra is the son of God, but there was a sect of Jews which said that Ezra is the son of God. If you translate the Arabic verse there in the Quran then you will come to know that it is a claim of some Jews and not something which forms the core belief of Judaism. it is to be noted that almost all classical commentators of the Qur'an agree in that only the Jews of Arabia, and not all Jews, have been thus accused. According to a Tradition on the authority of Ibn `Abbas - quoted by Tabari in his commentary on this verse, some of the Jews of Medina once said to Muhammad saw, "How could we follow thee when thou hast forsaken our giblah* and dost not consider Ezra a son of God?"
Also interesting is Dr. Muhammad Mohar Ali's comments on this issue:
Of course there is no evidence in the extant Old Testament about it; but the Qur'an was not referring to what is written in the Old Testament about 'Uzayr but to the belief and assertion of some of the Jews of the time who regarded 'Uzayr as the son of God. In fact the 'ayah in question, 9:30, starts with the expression: "And the Jews say". The commentator Al-Baydawi, to whome Watt refers a number of times in his book, (fn. Watt, Muhammad's Mecca, 108, note 2 to Chapter 1 and notes 2 and 10 to Chapter III) makes it clear with reference to this 'ayah that because the Old Testament was given its present form by 'Uzayr, many of the Jews of the time considered him a "son of God" and that specifically at Madina there was a group of Jews who held that belief. Al-Baydawi futher points out that the 'ayah in question was read out and recited as usual but no Madinan Jew came forward with a contradiction (fn.Al-Baydawi, Tafsir, I, second Egyptian impression, 1968, p. 412). It is to be noted that this 'ayah is unanimously regarded as Madinan. Hence the silence of the Jews of the place on the matter is suggestive enough, particularly as they were avowed critics of the Prophet.
Not only Al-Baydawi but also other commentators mention that the 'ayah refers to the views of a particular group of the Jews. For instance, Al-Tabari bives a number of reports together with their chains of narrators specifically mentioning the leading Jews of Madina who considered Uzayr a son of God. The most prominent of those Jews were Finhas, Sullam ibn Mishkam, Nu'man ibn Awfa, Sha's ibn Qays and Malik ibn al-Sayf (fn. Al-Tabari, Tafsir, XIV, 201-204). Similarly, Al-Qurtubi mentions the same fact and the same names adding that the expression "the Jews" occuring at the beginning of the 'ayah means "some particular Jews", just as the expression "people told them" (qala lahum al-nas) means not all the people of the world but some particular people. He further says that the Jewish sect who held that 'Uzayr was God's son had become extinct by his (Al-Qurtubi's) time (fn. Al-Qurtubi, Tafsir, Pt. VIII, 116-117). (Muhammad Mohar Ali, The Qur'an and the Orientalists, Jam'iyat 'Ihya' Minhaj Al-Sunnah 2004, p. 66)
You're engaging in theological acrobatics. I have read the purported answer to justify this verse, and they all appear to me no more than desperate efforts to explain something that is, in effect, a big ole whoops. The Quranic line is very simple. It says Christians call Christ the son of god (which is in fact a key tenet of Christian faith), and in the same line and the same grammatical construct, it alleges that Jews call Ezra a son of god (which is a whoops.)
What does it matter that somewhere in Arabia or Yemen there MAY have been a tiny sect of Jews who believed something atypical? The key tenets of Jewish faith have been well formed for centuries before Islam appeared on the scene; absolute, unwavering monotheism is a cornerstone of these beliefs. It is very curious, to say the least, that out all the millions of global Jewry, the Quran - a book for all ages that's correct about all things - chooses to focus on an (allegedly) tiny sect of Jews who worshipped Ezra (if it existed, it left no written trace of its life, certainly not in non-Muslim sources), when it should have been well aware of the fact that this belief - if it existed at all - is a deviation in Judaism. This line describes Christians correctly and it applies to all Christians. It wants to apply the same argument to Jews, but that's where the whoops comes in.
I don't consider "the silence of Jews" on the matter to mean anything. There are any number of reasons one keeps quiet: for political gain, to avoid conflict, to curry favor. How powerful were Muslims at the time? Would it have been advantageous to the Jews to argue with them or not? Why should the Jews care what someone else's scripture say? Is there evidence of Jews EVER objecting to anything the Quran said at the time?
The response you posted is so convoluted and rests on so many assumptions that one is reminded of a simple rule of logic: between a complex and a simple explanation, choose simple. The simple explanation is that whoever wrote that verse made a mistake. I find the answers unconvincing and therefore I consider this verse a Quranic whoops.
And that is why you are not a Muslim. Of course even presented with evidence you will continue to refute and choose to ignore the context in which the verse was revealed, while it is Quran101 that each verse has a meaning according to the context in which it was revealed. Of course the Quran is timeless and Allah in his infinite wisdom chooses to focus and cover whatever He pleases. Who are you to decide "What does it matter that somewhere in Arabia or Yemen there MAY have been a tiny sect of Jews who believed something atypical?" Obviously it mattered to the Creator of the Universe who included it in His Book.
Anonymous wrote:Muslima wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:And Joseph married her, yes, but AFTER Mary got pregnant.
Wow, Muslima! I thought you told us that Muslims revere Mary. Yet here you are, trashing Mary's reputation in order to score points on DCUM.
Again, I'm not Muslima. But whatever…
Yes, Muslims do have tremendous respect for Mary. I personally believe in the immaculate conception. Muslims are required to believe in it. But I'm using this as a point to show the lunacy of calling Muhammad a pedophile. Muhammad is no more a pedophile for marrying Aisha than Mary was a disgraced woman for having an immaculate conception. Get it?
Dear fellow Muslim brother, Assalamualeikum wa Rahmatullah wa barakatuhu You & I both know that Islam does not support Pedophilia or child molestation under any circumstances. We have both shared points, showing what the age of marriage used to be in the past, something history agrees with, but at the end of the day I have come to realize one thing, I can't keep arguing with islamophobes who are blinded by their hate of Islam, logic and reason is least likely to influence people like that. They have no idea of the love that 1.6 billion Muslims have for Allah and his messenger saw, so how can we blame them and hold them responsible for their ignorance? Sadly, they have not tasted the sweetness of Iman!
Salaam Muslima,
When I first joined this discussion, I truly thought it was an intellectual discourse. I truly thought the handful of people inquiring about Islam were interested in understanding Islam. They are not. I have answers their questions numerous times and, yet, it does not seem to be to their satisfaction. They are a dodging target. Their first accusation was that Muhammad was a pedophile. Then they take issue with Islam's inheritance laws. Then divorce laws are an injustice to women. Then it was testimony. Now it's custody. Nearly ever question has been answered except for the child custody one and that' s an easy to answer as well. I plan to explain that soon too.
I'm beginning to realize that their antagonism is an expression of their fear about the spread of Islam. Islam is the fastest growing religion, not only in the world but also in the US. Moreover, it is growing in the US, not by immigration, but instead by conversion. They know this. They feel terribly threatened by this because they fear Muslims will take over the US and want to convert it to a Sharia state. They fear it will give birth to grops like ISIS.
I wish I could reassure them that this will not happen. The beauty of America is that it is a multi religious, muli cultural land. Even if immigrants arrive here, clinging to their old customs and ways, by the second or third generation, American Muslims assimilate. They may not give up their religious principles completely but they learn the valuable lesson of tolerance of other religions and cultures. It gives birth to a new and better kind of Islam, an Islam free of cultural influences, and this is pure Islam.
Regardless of the vile accusations they make against Prophet Muhammad, I still hold that Christians and Jews are my brethren. Christianity and Judaism are simply other avenues to the same God we worship. I condemn ISIS and will always condemn any extremist group that denies the right of any Christian or Jew to practice his faith freely. This is real Islam.
It's very sad that rather than asking, "Why did Muhammad marry a girl so young?" or "Did Muhammad in fact marry a girl that young?" the word pedophile was used. It's just terribly insulting to the billions of Muslims that respect him so much.
No one can learn about Islam just google searching and reading just one or two books or relying on Hollywood movies like "Not Without My Daughter." To learn about Islam they have to be willing to call a few Imams or scholars in the US such as Hamza Yusuf, Ahmad Sakr, Muhammad Joban, etc…Historians do not know Islam as well as an imam or scholar would.
My own mother in law converted to Islam from Christianity over 40 yrs ago and she has never regretted her decision. She is of European descent. I am of mixed race. My children have very caucasian features and are not likely to be thought of as "Muslim" by other Americans. They will blend in American society almost completely, with the exception of their religion. This is the new American Muslim. They better get used to it.
I agree with this. Most people are not interested in learning about Islam but just copy/paste random verses that they do not understand, don't know the context and don't even know what the verses are referring to, to justify their own biases and prejudices against Islam. Besides the fact that due to their ignorance they believe Islam is unjust to women, women are converting to Islam at such rapid rates that they outnumber men 4 to 1.Considering the intense anti-Islamic and hostile media propaganda these past few years, some with a particularly strong emphasis on the 'supposed' degrading position of women in Islam, I feel that those women are exceptional who accept Islam and who were able to separate the negative stereotyping and nonsense from the reality of faith(kudos to your MIL). Muslim women, born and converts, are by no means the empty-headed, submissive, rejects of western society that some would have us believe. These critics fail miserably to understand or relate the true underlying reasons for so many Muslim women's acceptance of and adherence to Islam. This stems from their inability to face the reality of the true motivations of intelligent, thoughtful, western women, both young and old, for accepting Islam. Biased, slanted, and incomplete reporting is often due to plain old ignorance and significant doses of arrogance and pride. But hey, we are not going anywhere, Islam and Muslims are here to stay!
Anonymous wrote:Muslima wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:
If a Muslim woman wants to divorce, she may, but has the addl hurdle of seeking a divorce through the court. A man needs two witnesses. The addl requirement acts as a safeguard for women in a system entrenched with institutional discrimination toward women, as it is in place to ensure a woman is not making a decision that will be more harmful to her in the long run. Moreover, men are not permitted to take back anything they bestowed to the wife during the marriage. This is in stark contrast to divorce laws in the US, where spouses often fight for who gets what, and women are in financial hardship after divorce.
Overall, it looks to me that Islam does a fine job of providing true "equality" because it is a more just system.
You follow me??
You're doing the typical Muslim thing where they say the arrangements of their religion is perfect and whatever seems imperfect is really for your own good. Unequal rights to divorce for women? That's for your own good! Cannot travel without male companion? That's for your own good! Have to cede custody of children if you remarry? That's for your own good! Cannot marry without permission of legal guardian? It's for your own good!
So to address, just to humor you, the weak argument you make about divorce:
The system that is entrenched with institutional discrimination toward women did not fall from the sky. It was created and enshrined by that very same religion. The religion that does not see women as capable makers of their own decision and therefore wants to "protect them" from themselves.
Men are not permitted to take back anything they bestowed on the wife during marriage? That's only if divorce is initiated by men. If initiated by a woman, it is very common for women to buy out their way out of the marriage by returning their wedding gift, for which ample scriptural proof is in fact available in the ahadith.
Furthermore, you know what else men are not required to do upon divorce? Share with the wife anything the couple accumulated during marriage. Theoretically, a scenario where a rich husband divorces his homemaker wife of 30 years and sends her off with three months' of maintenance, is perfectly legal Islamically. Doesn't seen fair? It didn't seem fair to the Indian courts either, which ushered in a famous case of Shah Bano, an elderly woman tossed out by her rich husband with nothing. When the court attempted to seek redress via alimony and property division similar to what is available to Hindu women, Muslims went out to demonstrate. India had to weasel out of this predicament by creating a special fund dedicated to maintenance of women who were cruelly - and yet irreproachably, as far as Islam is concerned - tossed out by their husbands.
Ugh okay next...> Poor me, Muslim Woman I will just go hide and cry tonight. I had no idea I was living under these dire conditions, thank you so much for enlightening me, who knew??
Are you too scared to admit s that there is a good possibility that Islam is not a bunch of fairy tales and might be a divinely inspired religion?
please re-read the last paragraph. It is an excellent overview of why we are critical of Islam and and why Islam is fundamentally the problem.
you said - when people are confronted with the truth, they often cover it up with disbelief - what does this mean? that you have the truth and everyone else covers it up? did God (or Mohammed) personally come to your house and deliver the truth? or are you reading something that another human being wrote and letting them be your god? this is nonsense for an adult person to say!
you said - ridiculing Islam - posters are not ridiculing. I am scared by the terrible violence that Islam has been imposing on any other religion it comes into contact with. And because of the US and Western Europe history of tolerance and political correctness, we will do nothing to stop it until it requires a huge cost to stop.
you said - us the believers, no amount of ridicule, fallacies, lies will move our faith to even an inch - yes we know this. Islam is about intolerance as practiced today. The leaders insist that the Koran is eternal, and must be simply accepted without question. In fact, for this group, the very act of questioning is blasphemous--a capital crime.
It's hard to recall that Islamic civilization was once far ahead of Western civilization. Early in Islamic history Arab conquests took them into captured libraries full of Greek philosophy, science, mathematics and culture and Islamic intellectual life expanded suddenly and exponentially. Many seminal works the West claims today as its own originally arrived as translations from Arabic. The numbers we use today, "Arabic" (actually Indian) numerals came in on a tide of Arabic words like algebra and algorithm. Arab civilization in the 10th seemed to have a bright future. Then, in the 11th century Islam reversed course. The pendulum swung so far away from the rationalism of Greek philosophy it never came back.
The linchpin of this change was over the alleged power of Allah. It became a theological fetish to ascribe Him flattering new dimensions of potency. Imaginative arguments were made inflate the Creator--always at the expense of the created.
- Omnipotence. Far more God-powers. Even to the point of dismissing all natural law, all cause & effect Every event from the molecular to the cosmic becomes Allah's will. (God is Great!...and getting Greater!)
- Onmiscience. He knows your fate and all future events. Failure & success, heaven or hell, happiness or misery--His choice, not yours. All entered into history by an Angel before you exist. (Divine determinism, Islamic style: only He is free.)
- Unknowability. You can know nothing about Him or His motives. To attempt to discover or postulate Allah's nature becomes blasphemy--a capital crime. All His commandments are beyond human logic: arbitrary and absolute. Obedience is the bedrock source of morality, all law, all behavior. No modifications allowed.
Right, your core belief that Islam is the problem is what is wrong with society and why this discussion is pointless, so I will end by saying this, " To you your religion, to me my religion". I don't have the energy to repeat the same things over and over. The very fact that you believe Muslims follow blindly their faith and are not allowed to question, seek the truth and gain knowledge shows that this discussion is sterile as you do not even understand the basics of Islam. The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge. The first verse of the Quran that was revealed was not " Pray" or "Believe" or "Fast, go to hajj", it was "Read! Read in the name of thy Lord who created;[He] created the human being from blood clot. Read in the name of thy Lord who taught by the pen: [He] taught the human being what he did not know." (96: 1-5). There are around 750 verses in the Quran that encourage us to think about the universe that surrounds us and all that has been created within it and placed at our disposal.The Prophet saw made seeking knowledge an obligation upon every Muslim, and he explained that the superiority of the one who has knowledge over the one who merely worships is like the superiority of the moon over every other heavenly body. We are not supposed to close our eyes and live this life blindly following whatever flavor of the day. We are rather supposed to ponder, deliberate and choose a proper course of action for whatever undertaking we venture in. The Qur'an obligates believers to think and reflect, we don't just obey blindly, so to you your religion, to me mine!.
Anonymous wrote:Muslima wrote:
There isn't a single contradiction in the Quran. I know exactly the verses you are referring to, feel free to cite them and I will give you the story behind each. The Quran wasnt revealed over night but it was revealed in 23 years and verses were revealed according to what was going on at the time and there is a clear explanation of each verse of the Quran. If you want to learn the meaning of verses, you have to read what we call Tafseer of the Quran which will tell you when a verse was revealed, why it was revealed and what the meaning is
My husband - a Saudi Arab - and I refer to the line about Jews allegedly worshipping Ezra as a "big ole Quranic whoops." That's why Jews don't take the Quran seriously. If it could mess up that very basic tenet of Jewish monotheistic belief, what else did it misunderstand?
The Jews call `Uzair a son of Allah, and the Christians call Christ the son of Allah. That is the saying from their mouth; (In this) they are intimate; what the Unbelievers of the old used to say. Allah's curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the truth. [Qur'an 9:30]
I don't like to debate other religions but since you noted this,the Qur’an does not say that all the Jews believe that Ezra is the son of God, but there was a sect of Jews which said that Ezra is the son of God. If you translate the Arabic verse there in the Quran then you will come to know that it is a claim of some Jews and not something which forms the core belief of Judaism. it is to be noted that almost all classical commentators of the Qur'an agree in that only the Jews of Arabia, and not all Jews, have been thus accused. According to a Tradition on the authority of Ibn `Abbas - quoted by Tabari in his commentary on this verse, some of the Jews of Medina once said to Muhammad saw, "How could we follow thee when thou hast forsaken our giblah* and dost not consider Ezra a son of God?"
Also interesting is Dr. Muhammad Mohar Ali's comments on this issue:
Of course there is no evidence in the extant Old Testament about it; but the Qur'an was not referring to what is written in the Old Testament about 'Uzayr but to the belief and assertion of some of the Jews of the time who regarded 'Uzayr as the son of God. In fact the 'ayah in question, 9:30, starts with the expression: "And the Jews say". The commentator Al-Baydawi, to whome Watt refers a number of times in his book, (fn. Watt, Muhammad's Mecca, 108, note 2 to Chapter 1 and notes 2 and 10 to Chapter III) makes it clear with reference to this 'ayah that because the Old Testament was given its present form by 'Uzayr, many of the Jews of the time considered him a "son of God" and that specifically at Madina there was a group of Jews who held that belief. Al-Baydawi futher points out that the 'ayah in question was read out and recited as usual but no Madinan Jew came forward with a contradiction (fn.Al-Baydawi, Tafsir, I, second Egyptian impression, 1968, p. 412). It is to be noted that this 'ayah is unanimously regarded as Madinan. Hence the silence of the Jews of the place on the matter is suggestive enough, particularly as they were avowed critics of the Prophet.
Not only Al-Baydawi but also other commentators mention that the 'ayah refers to the views of a particular group of the Jews. For instance, Al-Tabari bives a number of reports together with their chains of narrators specifically mentioning the leading Jews of Madina who considered Uzayr a son of God. The most prominent of those Jews were Finhas, Sullam ibn Mishkam, Nu'man ibn Awfa, Sha's ibn Qays and Malik ibn al-Sayf (fn. Al-Tabari, Tafsir, XIV, 201-204). Similarly, Al-Qurtubi mentions the same fact and the same names adding that the expression "the Jews" occuring at the beginning of the 'ayah means "some particular Jews", just as the expression "people told them" (qala lahum al-nas) means not all the people of the world but some particular people. He further says that the Jewish sect who held that 'Uzayr was God's son had become extinct by his (Al-Qurtubi's) time (fn. Al-Qurtubi, Tafsir, Pt. VIII, 116-117). (Muhammad Mohar Ali, The Qur'an and the Orientalists, Jam'iyat 'Ihya' Minhaj Al-Sunnah 2004, p. 66)
Anonymous wrote:Muslima wrote:Anonymous wrote:Muslima wrote:Anonymous wrote:Here are the differences between Jizya and Zakat, according to Wikipedia:
Zakat
obligatory upon Muslims
net worth of assets must exceed the Nisab (excess money for personal need) for Zakat to be obligatory
only payable on assets continuously owned over one lunar year that are in excess of the Nisab
the amount of Zakat paid is fixed and specified by Sharee'ah
paid only by the owner of the assets himself/herself
refusal to pay Zakat has no specific punishment by Sharee'ah law in life; punishment is delayed to the end time[35]
should be paid seeking God's pleasure [Qur'an 30:39]
Jizya
obligatory upon Dhimmis
required even if the Dhimmi's wealth or property does not exceed Nisab
paid according to a contract, but usually paid yearly regardless of Nisab
the amount paid is not fixed or specified by Sharee'ah, but is at least one gold Dinar with no maximum amount [32][33]
paid by all able-bodied adult males of military age and affording power[34]
refusal to pay Jizya is considered a breach of The Dhimma contract; as a consequence the Dhimmi's blood (life) and assets would become permissible[36]
is a tax on non-Muslims.[37]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zakat
Once again, what Muslims *claim* about Islam is different from what is actually practiced around the world. Jizya has often been used as an excuse to confiscate Christian and minority property in an unfair way.
Separating people into different groups under the law is, and always will be, a lousy idea. Ever heard of "separate but equal?" Segregation laws? And guess what, people enforcing those laws always had some rationale that it was "fair" or "better for everyone." This type of system invites inequality, discrimination, and worse. This, by itself, should be enough to convince a person that Islam is not perfect. No religion should be dictating laws.
If you want to have a serious discussion about Islam, please refrain from quoting Sheikh Wikipedia. The web is full of salafists, wahabists,fatwa lovers, islam bashers, ect. The most reliable and authentic sources of information about Islam is of course the Qur’an and Prophet Muhammad PBUH’s Hadiths, that's what Muslims live by, not wikipedia. Islamic Figh (jurisprudence) is very complex, as the rules are not static. For every situation, the Fiqh can change depending on the person's specific circumstances~
If you want to have a serious discussion, start with acknowledging that "salafists, wahhabists, fatwa lovers etc." have as much tafsir on their side, along with voluminous scholarship, as your peace-loving interpretation. Islam's stance on religious minorities is more progressive than Christianity, but the fact of the matter is that in Islamic state and in the Shariatic discourse, a Muslim and a non-Muslim are not equal. They are not. They differ in their rights and they differ in their privileges, which are decidedly on the side of the Muslims. Sheikh Wikipedia may be a lousy source, but Umar's dhimma agreement is not, and and its language ain't at all pretty toward minorities.
Then, it is usually never mentioned that Islamic tolerance toward minorities applies to only two of them: Christians and Jews. Everyone else is not included in the protected class.
Well context dear, what a beautiful thing. Islamophobes attempt to deceive people by quoting out of context and in a manner that suits their desires.Many people read the Quran without understanding the context. English translations of the Quran either give no context, or a limited context.Context has to do with four principles: literal meaning (what the words say), the historical setting , the events in which the words were used, who were the words addressed to and how those words were understood at that time, the grammatical structure of the passage and synthesis, comparing it with other passages in the Quran for a fuller meaning. All of these things refer to context. Taking verses out of context leads to all kind of errors and misunderstandings. Sadly, taking passages out of context, giving some more importance than they deserved, and misinterpreting them for their own reasons was initiated by the Orientalists and built upon, not only by the Media but also, verses were and are used out of context even by Muslims to justify individual or group actions.
so the actual text is not adequate and we need to understand "context". Who then are the living breathing humans that define the "context"? How do they do this?
I think a better context is the current context. It is easily validated and discussed.
Saudi Arabia allows Christians to enter the country as foreign workers for temporary work, but does not allow them to practice their faith openly. Why is this? Does this seem valid for the birthplace of such a great religion?
Because of that Christians generally only worship in secret within private homes. Items and articles belonging to religions other than Islam are prohibited. These include Bibles, crucifixes, statues, carvings, items with religious symbols, and others. Why is this? why is Islam the only religion that does this? What is the context for this?
for details please refer to - http://www.state.gov/j/drl/rls/irf/2008/108492.htm
"There is no legal recognition of, or protection under the law for, freedom of religion, and it is severely restricted in practice. The country is a monarchy and the King is both head of state and government. The legal system is based on the government's official interpretation of Shari'a (Islamic law). Sunni Islam is the official religion.
The Government confirmed that, as a matter of public policy, it guarantees and protects the right to private worship for all, including non-Muslims who gather in homes for religious services. However, this right was not always respected in practice and is not defined in law. Moreover, the public practice of non-Muslim religions is prohibited, and mutawwa'in (religious police) continued to conduct raids of private non-Muslim religious gatherings. Although the Government also confirmed its policy to protect the right to possess and use personal religious materials, it did not provide for this right in law, and the mutawwa'in sometimes confiscated the personal religious material of non-Muslims."
Seriously, if you can't comprehend the need of context as far as the Quran is concerned, this discussion is pointless as I will be wasting my time. I mean, this is Quran101, First, whenever a passage is quoted from the Quran the context should be determined.Then, is the verse specific or general? Does it refer to a specific time or is it timeless etc? If you don’t know, find out. Just reading one verse one gets completely the wrong picture. This Book is not like a magazine, article, or blog. You can’t skim through the Quran to get its treasure.
Now, if you want to discuss Saudi Arabia or Saudi laws, maybe you need to open a new thread. I do not consider Saudi Laws to be reflective of Sharia nor do I look at Saudi Arabia as the beacon of Islam. Saudi Arabia is not a poster for justice, equality, freedom, or civil rights. Petrodollars, yeh that's what it's run by......
Anonymous wrote:Muslima wrote:Anonymous wrote:Muslima wrote: I have lived in both Muslims and Non Muslim countries, I have never ever met a Muslim woman who was forced to cover her head, not one. .
If you haven't encountered societies where there are serious social costs attached to non-covered women and their families, then I do not believe that you have lived in Muslim countries.
Ok, so if there are serious social costs attached to non-covered women, then the religion is to blame? How more narrow-minded can you be? The religion itself guarantees free will to each and every human being, this is a right that the Creator Himself bestowed upon His creation. The fact that societies and human beings do not follow this has nothing to do with Islam. Again Muslims are not perfect beings, they come in all shapes and forms like every other person on the planet!
I didn't say religion is to blame. You said you've never met a Muslim woman who was forced to cover. Your comment was about reality on the ground, not religion. I replied to you that a) clearly, you haven't met EVERY Muslim woman, and b) choosing to cover in a society that attaches costs to lack of covering is hardly free choice. We aren't discussing religion. We are discussing the experiences you have reported.
No, what you said was : "If you haven't encountered societies where there are serious social costs attached to non-covered women and their families, then I do not believe that you have lived in Muslim countries" So, according to you, in every Muslim country there are social costs attached to non-covered women and their families? This is simply to be polite, not true! Of course I have not met every Muslim woman living on this planet, I don't have to meet each and every one to say that I have lived in a Muslim country and have not met a single one who was forced to cover. The narrative that you are trying to sell that Muslim women in Muslim countries cover due to the cost of not covering is wrong, insulting to the millions of Muslim women who freely choose to cover, and narrow minded to say the least!
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:And Joseph married her, yes, but AFTER Mary got pregnant.
Wow, Muslima! I thought you told us that Muslims revere Mary. Yet here you are, trashing Mary's reputation in order to score points on DCUM.
Again, I'm not Muslima. But whatever…
Yes, Muslims do have tremendous respect for Mary. I personally believe in the immaculate conception. Muslims are required to believe in it. But I'm using this as a point to show the lunacy of calling Muhammad a pedophile. Muhammad is no more a pedophile for marrying Aisha than Mary was a disgraced woman for having an immaculate conception. Get it?
Dear fellow Muslim brother, Assalamualeikum wa Rahmatullah wa barakatuhu You & I both know that Islam does not support Pedophilia or child molestation under any circumstances. We have both shared points, showing what the age of marriage used to be in the past, something history agrees with, but at the end of the day I have come to realize one thing, I can't keep arguing with islamophobes who are blinded by their hate of Islam, logic and reason is least likely to influence people like that. They have no idea of the love that 1.6 billion Muslims have for Allah and his messenger saw, so how can we blame them and hold them responsible for their ignorance? Sadly, they have not tasted the sweetness of Iman!
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:
If a Muslim woman wants to divorce, she may, but has the addl hurdle of seeking a divorce through the court. A man needs two witnesses. The addl requirement acts as a safeguard for women in a system entrenched with institutional discrimination toward women, as it is in place to ensure a woman is not making a decision that will be more harmful to her in the long run. Moreover, men are not permitted to take back anything they bestowed to the wife during the marriage. This is in stark contrast to divorce laws in the US, where spouses often fight for who gets what, and women are in financial hardship after divorce.
Overall, it looks to me that Islam does a fine job of providing true "equality" because it is a more just system.
You follow me??
You're doing the typical Muslim thing where they say the arrangements of their religion is perfect and whatever seems imperfect is really for your own good. Unequal rights to divorce for women? That's for your own good! Cannot travel without male companion? That's for your own good! Have to cede custody of children if you remarry? That's for your own good! Cannot marry without permission of legal guardian? It's for your own good!
So to address, just to humor you, the weak argument you make about divorce:
The system that is entrenched with institutional discrimination toward women did not fall from the sky. It was created and enshrined by that very same religion. The religion that does not see women as capable makers of their own decision and therefore wants to "protect them" from themselves.
Men are not permitted to take back anything they bestowed on the wife during marriage? That's only if divorce is initiated by men. If initiated by a woman, it is very common for women to buy out their way out of the marriage by returning their wedding gift, for which ample scriptural proof is in fact available in the ahadith.
Furthermore, you know what else men are not required to do upon divorce? Share with the wife anything the couple accumulated during marriage. Theoretically, a scenario where a rich husband divorces his homemaker wife of 30 years and sends her off with three months' of maintenance, is perfectly legal Islamically. Doesn't seen fair? It didn't seem fair to the Indian courts either, which ushered in a famous case of Shah Bano, an elderly woman tossed out by her rich husband with nothing. When the court attempted to seek redress via alimony and property division similar to what is available to Hindu women, Muslims went out to demonstrate. India had to weasel out of this predicament by creating a special fund dedicated to maintenance of women who were cruelly - and yet irreproachably, as far as Islam is concerned - tossed out by their husbands.
Ugh okay next...> Poor me, Muslim Woman I will just go hide and cry tonight. I had no idea I was living under these dire conditions, thank you so much for enlightening me, who knew??
Are you too scared to admit s that there is a good possibility that Islam is not a bunch of fairy tales and might be a divinely inspired religion?
It would certainly explain a lot of the internet troll’s behaviour who vociferously criticise Islam as if their life depended on it. Indeed, the Quranic idea is that when people are confronted with the truth, they often cover it up with disbelief. Some, for example, will spend all their energy ridiculing Islam maybe because they don’t want to concede that Islam is what it says it is: a divinely inspired religion. But hey for us the believers, no amount of ridicule, fallacies, lies will move our faith to even an inch. Our Trust is in Allah!
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:
You want people to assume the out of wedlock birth was an immaculate conception based on gospel? But who other than Christians believe in the word of the gospel? Your "proof" is your OWN book though. And it requires me to assume the premise is true. The gospel is true perhaps to you but not to me or everyone else. So your reasoning is ill conceived. Try again.
I think the word " pedophile " was used in this thread, if not by you, then clearly by others.
There has been ample information provided by Muslima to explain Islamic inheritance, testimony, and divorce. I do not rely on Sharia though as Sharia is man made law. I rely on the Quran. Muslima might not have explained everything but she did a fairly decent job. Her "flowery" descriptions rubbed you the wrong way, huh? It sounds like you simply hated that she spoke devoutly about her faith.
Everything was explained to you. So in essence a Muslim woman under a true Islamic State is not required to support herself. She may but isn't required. Her brothers, uncles, father, are required to support her unless she is married. This is why inheritance laws gives men more money, so they can support women.
If a Muslim woman wants to divorce, she may, but has the addl hurdle of seeking a divorce through the court. A man needs two witnesses. The addl requirement acts as a safeguard for women in a system entrenched with institutional discrimination toward women, as it is in place to ensure a woman is not making a decision that will be more harmful to her in the long run. Moreover, men are not permitted to take back anything they bestowed to the wife during the marriage. This is in stark contrast to divorce laws in the US, where spouses often fight for who gets what, and women are in financial hardship after divorce.
Overall, it looks to me that Islam does a fine job of providing true "equality" because it is a more just system.
You follow me??
That sound you hear is everybody reading this smacking their heads against their screens. We don't follow you, Muslima (yes, it's clear from your rhetorical style that you're Muslima, just not logged in at the moment), because the errors in logic are overwhelming.
1. You said Jesus was born "out of wedlock," so it was explained that Joseph married Mary so there was no "out of wedlock birth" as you had claimed several times. So now you're on a different tangent about immaculate conception and how you don't believe the gospels - yet you call us Islamophobes for not taking the word of your holy book. Whatever....
2. You, Muslima, have been told multiple times that your descriptions are half-truths and therefore misleading. To the extent you got all flowery, it was for the purpose of throwing up a smoke screen and avoiding clarity and truth. THAT is the problem with your language and rhetorical style.
3. You haven't mentioned how divorced women lose custody of their children at a young age.
I'm satisfied if the facts get out there. Then DCUM readers can make up their own minds. The problem is, you're exhausting, and a person could spend an entire day tracking down your every logical fallacy and flowery smokescreen that's meant to camouflage the hard facts.
Stop attributing messages to me. Clearly, you see that whatever you are responding to was written by "Anonymous" not "Muslima" I do not have the time nor the desire to sock poppet.