Message
Anonymous wrote:I feel that I am a realist, and fearful of Islam.
I don't know how to correlate what Muslima says about the beauty of Islam with the overwhelming number of violent attacks committed in the name of Islam.
I think it is a coordinated ploy by Saudi Arabia to push Wahhabism on the rest of the world. And until we recognize this and shut off the flow of money at the source, Islam will continue to be manipulated into the barbaric sharia law type system that it is today.
What you're saying is that, if we wanted to look for the causes of what's happened -- Al Qaeda and the movement worldwide -- we would have to look to the schools, to the educational system which Saudi Arabia has fostered in the Islamic world?
... In order to have terrorists, in order to have supporters for terrorists, in order to have people who are willing to interpret religion in violent ways, in order to have people who are willing to legitimate crashing yourself into a building and killing 5,000 innocent people, you need particular interpretations of Islam.
Those interpretations of Islam are being propagated out of schools that receive organizational and financial funding from Saudi Arabia. In fact, I would push it further: that these schools would not have existed without Saudi funding. They would not have proliferated across Pakistan and India and Afghanistan without Saudi funding. They would not have had the kind of prowess that they have without Saudi funding, and they would not have trained as many people without Saudi funding.
richard holbrooke
U.S. ambassador to the U.N. in the Clinton administration
I think that one of the tragedies of this story is that the Saudi Arabians exported their problem by financing the schools, the madrassas, all through the Islamic world. I saw this in Uzbekistan a few years after Uzbekistan got out of the Soviet Union, became an independent state in cities like Tashkent and Samarkand, where the Saudis were funding these schools teaching Koranic studies and creating a class of people for whom education was simply the Holy Book, the Koran.
... What happened here was that the Saudi Arabian government had two wings. The mainland Saudi leadership went into financial issues, defense issues, and they controlled the elite establishment in order to purchase support. From the more fundamentalist religious groups, they gave certain other ministries, the religious ministries, education ministries, to more fundamentalist Islam leaders. And that's how the split occurred.
So the Saudi government was, to a certain extent, pursuing internally inconsistent policies throughout this period -- reaching out to the West with sophisticated, well educated, internationally minded leaders like its foreign minister, like its ambassador in Washington and others. At the same time, it was funding with this vast oil revenue a different set of efforts: education, which was narrowly based in the Koran. .
I agree with that. As a Muslim, I myself sometimes, can not reconcile the teachings of Islam as I understand them as taught to me and other Muslims that I know with the violent attacks committed in the name of Islam! In our times, the saying, “not every Muslim is a terrorist, but every terrorist is a Muslim,” has almost become a cliché. While we Muslims know this is not true, and some Muslims go to the extent of proving so by citing examples from the KKK to Timothy McVeigh, we still owe an answer to ourselves and to others. To me, whether non-Muslims are involved in terrorist activities or not is irrelevant, and certainly does not justify Muslims being involved in terrorist activities. Religion is not purely text, but it is also how the text is interpreted and acted on. It is the job of muslims to interprete their religion properly and correct false interpretations. It follows then that it is the job of muslims to confront these problems and these mis-interpretations of the religion and make it clear that murder can not be committed in the name of Islam. There is no reason why so many Muslims should have such a poor or misguided understanding of their own religion.
But having said that, Muslim terrorists (and all perpetuators of violence and oppression) deserve to be studied carefully. Yes, it is terrorism. Yet, it is violence directed towards a civilian population for political motivation, with the intention of both causing real harm and creating an environment of fear. But do they do it because they are "Muslim" or for other reasons?
The reasons why someone picks up a gun or blows themselves up are ineluctably personal, born variously of grievance and frustration; religious piety or the desire for systemic socio-economic change; irredentist conviction or commitment to revolution. And yet, though there is no universal terrorist personality, nor has a single, broadly applicable profile ever been produced, there are things we do know. Terrorists are generally motivated by a profound sense of (albeit, misguided) altruism; deep feelings of self-defense; and, if they are religiously observant or devout, an abiding, even unswerving, commitment to their faith and the conviction that their violence is not only theologically justified, but divinely commanded.
Interesting article: http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2013/04/27/answers-to-why-people-become-terrorists.html
To depict them as embodying the essence of Islam (as Islamophobic forces routinely do) is precisely to grant them the very legitimacy that they crave. They neither possess nor deserve this legitimacy. Furthermore, we have to take seriously the reality that 1400 years of Islamic history, going back to the very example of Muhammad saw, condemns the usage of violence against non-combatants, what today we would call a civilian population.
Anonymous wrote:Muslima wrote:Anonymous wrote:The topic of THIS thread is NOT "TELL ME ABOUT ISLAM."
I do not want to know much more about Islam other than the last two questions that I asked you that you simply cannot seem to answer when you seem to be so verbose about so much else.
You're very defensive, Muslima, they are simple questions. Speak the truth. Is that not something the Koran commands you to do among so many other things?
Did you even bother to read the opening post of this thread?
As far as your questions are concerned, they have been treated over and over, believe me, they are very "basic" questions. No need to go on and on about why I didn't answer as it is some sort of sacrilege. I can't keep repeating myself over and over. Like I told you in a previous post if you didn't get it then, you won't get it now. Repeating/doing the same thing over and over expecting a different outcome is the definition of insanity, I choose to stay sane!
You never provided any numbers to back up your claim that Islam in America (or anywhere) is growing more by conversion than by immigration. [Would you like to take that back, or acknowledge it was your opinion that isn't confirmed by actual statistics?
Go and bring the quote where I made that statement
Anonymous wrote:Muslima, disagreeing with you is NOT the same as Islamophobia and racism. Most posters on that thread were very respectful, and certainly Mohammed got called a pedophile fewer times than you guys called Mary a 'porn queen" (direct quote).
Are you the same poster who keeps repeating you guys did this/that. My posts are easily identifiable so when you say "Muslima" said xyz have the decency to back it up! For one I never called Mary a "porn queen", I actually never even talked about Mary if you should know. I believe that Mary is one of the only 4 perfect women that was created by God. Even the mother of Mohamed saw was not given that title so why would I have anything but respect and love for Mary? I think the other muslim poster started talking about Mary because she was upset about the pedophilia comments, I would think she doesn't believe in those things about Mary but was probably angry and frustrated, which is one reason why I recuse myself from a discussion when it starts being attacks after attacks, disrespectful and dishonest. As human beings it is very easy to go there, get down to the level of nastiness and fight back, to prevent that I stop answering when a discussion goes sterile!
You are apparently angry about several types of challenges you faced on that thread:
1. Requests for statistics to back up your claims about converts,
2. Clarifications to your simplified presentation of Islam (eg, your claim that Islam "offers captives asylum" neglected to mention the Quranically sanctioned rape of female captives),
3. Challenges to your personal interpretations of various Islamic rules (selective use of hadith and your position on sharia) coupled with the suggestion that you may be out of step with eminent scholars, and
4. Readers simply didn't find your explanations convincing, e.g. that various rules about women are for our own good.
These challenges DO NOT amount to "racist Islamophobia." People disagreeing with you or failing to find your explanations convincing is NOT "racist Islamophobia."
You were warned several times on that thread about your use of ad hominems, your repeated recourse to personal insults instead of answering hard questions. This thread is in the same vein: contentless, with lots of insults.
I am not angry because of challenges faced on a thread, com' ON ! If you should know real life islamophobia is harder to survive than online rhetoric, you can just turn your computer off and move on. I have said it before and will repeat it. What is offensive is for someone to cut and paste random verses of the Quran totally ignoring the context the verses were revealed in, totally ignoring what the verses are referring to and blatantly using this to advance their own propaganda. Self-imposed ignorance is offensive! But being challenged by what Islam is or teaches? No, i don't have that challenge! And btw, my "self-interpretations" of Quran, no dear, I studied and read, studied and read for years with scholars who studied and read for decenies, whatever I present, when I present it as "Islam" you better believe it is not my personal interpretation, but when I say in my opinion, then yes you can take it as such! And one little note stop saying "readers did not find x, y, z", nobody made you speaker of the house~
Anonymous wrote:The topic of THIS thread is NOT "TELL ME ABOUT ISLAM."
I do not want to know much more about Islam other than the last two questions that I asked you that you simply cannot seem to answer when you seem to be so verbose about so much else.
You're very defensive, Muslima, they are simple questions. Speak the truth. Is that not something the Koran commands you to do among so many other things?
Did you even bother to read the opening post of this thread?
As far as your questions are concerned, they have been treated over and over, believe me, they are very "basic" questions. No need to go on and on about why I didn't answer as it is some sort of sacrilege. I can't keep repeating myself over and over. Like I told you in a previous post if you didn't get it then, you won't get it now. Repeating/doing the same thing over and over expecting a different outcome is the definition of insanity, I choose to stay sane!
Anonymous wrote:Because you don't seem to GET IT Muslima. No one here REALLY wants to learn about your beloved book. It may be un-politically correct of me to say that, but it's the truth. No one it coming to DCUM to hear you preach the Koran. Correct me if I am wrong, people. No one wants to hear your rambling on about it.
What I'd really like to know is the following:
1. You claim that Islam is such a "peaceful" religion, how do you justify the actions of the radicals?
2. You claimed to live in DC. I think that's a lie. I don't think you live in this country at all.
Try to keep your reply succinct. Your laborious ongoing paragraphs are mind-numbing (as are your attempts at humour and sarcasm).
That is not true ! You obviously do not speak for the person who started the thread "Tell me about Islam", he or she obviously wanted to hear about "my beloved book", AND whether you like it or not, he or she is not the only one. You are not the speaker of the house so stop making blanket statements.
As far as your other Questions, I have no interest in responding. I can not add anything to your "knowledge" at this point, if you did not get it the 1st, 2nd or 3rd time you won't get it now, you deserve to stay in your ignorance and live in your ignorance. Interacting with an online troll is like arguing with a drunk in a bar, complete waste of time. Oh, btw the length of my responses depend on my level of interest not what or how some random anonymous on the internet wants me to respond and since I have zero interest right now, this response is short. Ma Salaama~
Anonymous wrote:Forgive me but before you start in on the middle ages and what not, let's be clear that I am speaking about the year 2014. Most people and religions have evolved from their barbaric roots.
Forgive me again and call me ignorant. I know the basics about the Koran but I am not interested in Muslima going on and on and on and on and on and on for paragraphs on end about intricacies of a book that I have no other interest in than the basics.
Again, it's 2014. Every other religion has EVOLVED and no other is as barbaric or has spawned such radicals as Islam. That's something to consider.
Really?? It is 2014?? Well haven't you heard? In the Islamic calendar, we are in the year 1435
I think you brought the middle ages into this discussion, nobody even came close to mentioning it. And if you think that no other religion is "s barbaric or has spawned such radicals as Islam" you clearly do not know much about history. Now since you clearly stated that you have no interest in learning more about the Quran and that you know the basics but still have no other interests than the basics, I really don't see why you are part of a discussion you have no interest in. Really weird! And today's date is the 12th of Thul-Hijjah, 1435 in the Hijri calendar ~
Anonymous wrote:Muslima wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:As such, the Islam practiced by some people in Muslim countries is not necessarily pure Islam or true Islam. It is influenced by a deeply entrenched, patriarchal belief system. Thus, examining the work of scholars from these countries in particular will not accurately explain true Islam. However, this is what these islamophobes will do and want the public to do, because it simply supports their cause for exclusionary practices, prejudicial and racial profiling, and their own deeply held philosophical religious beliefs.
Oh it's not pure or true Islam, is it. First you tell us to talk to Muslims, then you say people in Muslim countries don't practice pure or true Islam. Are people in Muslim countries aware they don't practice pure Islam? Are scholars in these countries aware that they apparently cannot accurately explain true Islam?
I'm gonna write to Al Azhar and tell them there's a chick on DCUM who thinks they got their deen all wrong.
You know why people quote these rulings? 'Cause they are there. You don't like the fact that they are there? Then make them not exist.
Stop being so dense!I slam calls on Muslims to think, reflect and ponder. Muslim jurists and thinkers employ their intellects in comprehending and interpreting the divine message expressed in the Qur'an and the Sunnah. This, for a variety of reasons, has resulted in a wide range of interpretations that have enriched the intellectual debates throughout the Muslim history. Of course, not all of these interpretations are correct, acceptable, or even excusable. This is called in Islam Ijtihad whose details and rulings are to be found on the books of Usul al-Fiqh (Principles of Islamic Jurisprudence). Not every scholar can practice ijtihad, he has to meet certain conditions and he has to be aware of the details of the issue being discussed.This is the reason behind having different interpretations of some issues. The differences we find in Islam have to do with the details of the Shari`ah not the basics. The basics of Islam were, are, and will remain the same. There is no difference among the scholars on the number of obligatory prayers, the amount of zakah to be paid by every Muslim, and the obligation to fast during the month of Ramadan and to perform Hajj once in a lifetime.
Human beings are diverse and different in their mental capabilities, world views, perceptions and thoughts. All these are catalysts to having multiplicity of opinions and judgments. When the constitution of the USA, which was written only about 200 years ago by humans, is interpreted by the Supreme Court, the judges differ in their interpretations and it is usually 5/4 or 6/3 division. So why do you think all Muslim scholars would have a consensus on everything from a book that was revealed 1400 years ago?
We cherish the intellectual freedom of our religion, and the lack of papal hierarchy. There are several benefits for healthy disagreement and variety of opinions that have always existed in our Ummah since the time of the Sahabah. Of those benefits is to protect the religion from human fallibility when people agree on something wrong, and of them is to stimulate the great intellectual discourse with the subsequent intellectual vitality which all resulted in this great fiqhi heritage of ours. But of course because of this, you will for the most part always find a kind of extremism within some Muslims and also laxity in others, and that is a much bigger problem in my view.
You think calling names makes you more convincing or something?
First, no one here is debating on how much zakah to pay so let's not even bring this up. Also, there is no obligation to perform hajj if you can't afford it.
If you really cherish the diversity of opinions in Islam like you say you do, why is your friend getting apoplectic because I point to the opinions of conservative scholars rather than her preferred one? If you truly believe in robust intellectual discourse, you ought to be happy that in that tent of yours there is room for both Hamza Yusuf and Abdulaziz Bin Baz. Stop calling people Islamophobic because they don't agree with your interpretation or point out that other interpretations, delivered by equally degreed and learned scholars, also exist.
And well yes, not everyone can practice ijtihad. In fact, some Sunnis would say the gates of ijtihad have closed centuries ago, and there is no more need for independent thought, only for regurgitation of consensus. So I do believe the intellectual freedom you mention isn't embraced by the entire establishment with equal fervor. One almost gains a measure of respect for the Shia for never buying into that.
I guess you missed the part where I said " Of course, not all of these interpretations are correct, acceptable, or even excusable." Just because difference of opinion exists amongst scholars doesn't mean all interpretations are valid! Now instead of accusing my friend from being apologetic due to your choice of "scholars", the more pertinent question, the one returned to you is why would you choose those "scholars" to define Islam and reject other scholars interpretations of Islam ? It has never been the Islamic way to think of scholars as being infallible. That is different from TRUSTING a scholar, my friend presented to you opinions of scholars she TRUSTED and there's nothing wrong with that. But you on the other hand chooses to trust the opinion of whatever scholar that fits the narrative you want to portray, very telling! Today any Tom, Dick or Harry, or rather any Ali or Hassan is able to invest a few dollars and buy a site then publish on it any personal flimsy interpretations and pass it on as Quranic enlightenment! Some scholars provide provocative and hypothetical interpretation, ostensibly to advance their own agenda. The other thing is that as Muslims we do not believe scholars are infallible. Scholars are learned and give their opinions but we Muslims should use our God given critical thinking ability to either accept their opinions and practice them or reject them. No one can say what the scholars of Qur'an say is sacrosanct and unchangeable. Even scholars of old realized that their opinions were not set in stone and could change with the times. Individuals are never infallible. No scholar is right all the time. That's why the weight of an opinion which has the consensus of scholars is much stronger than the weight of individual opinions. In Islam, this consensus is called (Ijmaa') and is one of the main sources of Islamic Law.The theological point made by Muslim thinkers and legal scholars is that since infallibility belongs only to Allah, the "Ijma'" of any place or period cannot be regarded as infallible and hence eternally binding!
Anonymous wrote:Muslima wrote:This is the kind of narrative that serves nothing but to dissipate more stereotypes about the alpha Muslim man and submissive muslim woman.
It's not a narrative. It's what she saw with her own eyes.
And I do think the word you're looking for is "reinforce." Not "dissipate." Dissipating more stereotypes would actually be a good thing. But never mind, I don't get hung up on typos, unlike some people we all know.
Thank you for correcting me, you are right, dissipate is not the word I wanted to use!
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:As such, the Islam practiced by some people in Muslim countries is not necessarily pure Islam or true Islam. It is influenced by a deeply entrenched, patriarchal belief system. Thus, examining the work of scholars from these countries in particular will not accurately explain true Islam. However, this is what these islamophobes will do and want the public to do, because it simply supports their cause for exclusionary practices, prejudicial and racial profiling, and their own deeply held philosophical religious beliefs.
Oh it's not pure or true Islam, is it. First you tell us to talk to Muslims, then you say people in Muslim countries don't practice pure or true Islam. Are people in Muslim countries aware they don't practice pure Islam? Are scholars in these countries aware that they apparently cannot accurately explain true Islam?
I'm gonna write to Al Azhar and tell them there's a chick on DCUM who thinks they got their deen all wrong.
You know why people quote these rulings? 'Cause they are there. You don't like the fact that they are there? Then make them not exist.
Stop being so dense!I slam calls on Muslims to think, reflect and ponder. Muslim jurists and thinkers employ their intellects in comprehending and interpreting the divine message expressed in the Qur'an and the Sunnah. This, for a variety of reasons, has resulted in a wide range of interpretations that have enriched the intellectual debates throughout the Muslim history. Of course, not all of these interpretations are correct, acceptable, or even excusable. This is called in Islam Ijtihad whose details and rulings are to be found on the books of Usul al-Fiqh (Principles of Islamic Jurisprudence). Not every scholar can practice ijtihad, he has to meet certain conditions and he has to be aware of the details of the issue being discussed.This is the reason behind having different interpretations of some issues. The differences we find in Islam have to do with the details of the Shari`ah not the basics. The basics of Islam were, are, and will remain the same. There is no difference among the scholars on the number of obligatory prayers, the amount of zakah to be paid by every Muslim, and the obligation to fast during the month of Ramadan and to perform Hajj once in a lifetime.
Human beings are diverse and different in their mental capabilities, world views, perceptions and thoughts. All these are catalysts to having multiplicity of opinions and judgments. When the constitution of the USA, which was written only about 200 years ago by humans, is interpreted by the Supreme Court, the judges differ in their interpretations and it is usually 5/4 or 6/3 division. So why do you think all Muslim scholars would have a consensus on everything from a book that was revealed 1400 years ago?
We cherish the intellectual freedom of our religion, and the lack of papal hierarchy. There are several benefits for healthy disagreement and variety of opinions that have always existed in our Ummah since the time of the Sahabah. Of those benefits is to protect the religion from human fallibility when people agree on something wrong, and of them is to stimulate the great intellectual discourse with the subsequent intellectual vitality which all resulted in this great fiqhi heritage of ours. But of course because of this, you will for the most part always find a kind of extremism within some Muslims and also laxity in others, and that is a much bigger problem in my view.
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:OP, I agree with you in some ways. However, I do think it is a disservice to call people islamaphobes. You do agree that For a long time now, the extremists have tainted the Muslim religion into things that it may not totally represent. And I'm not just talking about ISIS. I'm talking about the treatment of women, the stonings, the fact that i had a patient last week who wouldn't talk unless her husband gave her permission to. I like to think I'm educated enough not to view all Muslims in a negative light, but you also have to understand why so many do.
Instead of finding people who say Muslims aren't all the negative things as they are depicted to be, you may have a better shot of finding examples of people who go against the stereotype. Not just scholarly articles or people talking.
The thing is, that woman's husband could bring you a dozen rulings from decreed sheikhs explaining, with full chain of evidence, that what his wife did was proper and correct.
I understand that. My point is that it is not islamaphobic to think that is so incredibly backwards that when a woman shows up in the ER with obvious pain, she couldn't tell me how bad her pain was without her husbands permission. It is not Isis you are fighting against with why people think Muslims are "bad" it's more like the examples that you see of how they treat women. And I don't think it makes me an islamaphobic to say I was very disturbed by the dynamic I saw between the two of them or that I think the treatment of women who've been raped is backwards and disgusting.
What I think is backwards is for you to think that a religion of 1.6 Billion people won't allow women to speak to a physician without their husband's permission. This is the kind of narrative that serves nothing but to reinforce more stereotypes about the alpha Muslim man and submissive muslim woman. For crying out loud, one of the youngest doctors in the world today is a 20 year old Muslim woman, I doubt she waits for her husband's permission before consulting with her patients. The Qur’an itself is not only egalitarian but decidedly anti-patriarchal, as is Islam as it was practiced by our Prophet SAW, who was in many ways a feminist. Whenever Muslim women have been oppressed, it was due to patriarchal laws that have no place in Islam. Since the Qur’an was revealed to a patriarchy and has been interpreted a lot by adherents of patriarchy since its revelation, it is the readings of the Qur’an and the interpretations by patriarchal Muslims that appear to be oppressive, not the Qur’an itself, whose teachings are neither framed by nor concerned with patriarchy, as proven by its strongly egalitarian essence and emphasis of equality & justice !
Anonymous wrote:Muslima wrote:Anonymous wrote:Muslima wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:
So you never even watched the videos in the links I provided? Wow. HA! You just exposed yourself as a Islamophobe and Islam hater, do you know that? The questions you asked are directly addressed and answered in the youtube links!! You chose not to watch them!
No matter, because now they are permanently a part of DCUM and I assure you that others will watch them.
I hope you're not a Christian or Jew, as you reflect poorly on the vast majority of Christians and Jews I know.
OK. Muslima provided the links and videos between the hours of 1-3 last night. And you're asking about us watching the links *you* provided. Seems pretty clear that you and Muslima are the same person.
Busted!
Stop lying. I have not posted links to any youtube videos yesterday or the day before, or today......
Salaam Sister,
Hit the REPORT button and tell Jeff about the two posters who posted racist messages on this thread.
I plan to do same.
Salaam sister,
Great. Ignorance and prejudice are the handmaiden of propaganda and this has been demonstrated over and over by those posters. ..racist thought and action says far more about the person they come from than the person they are directed at.
Muslima, I have no idea how you haven't lost your temper with these racist islamophobes. You are a better Muslim than I. Its a testament to your faith. When practiced dutifully, Islam makes a person calm, probably because they fully submitted themself to God. After all that is what Islam literally means, submission.
Trust me I am not a better Muslim than you are at all, lol. As a Muslim woman living in America, I have seen it & heard it all, so I am totally desensitized to the insults directly at me or Islam. As far as people insulting the Prophet Muhammad saw & Islam, I remember that people physically assaulted our beloved Prophet saw during his life, people threw stones at him, they threw dirty intestines on him whilst he was praying, they threw their dirty garbage on him, they abused him, they killed his loved ones, poisoned his food, ridiculed him, laughed at him.However, although they hurt him, Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) looked beyond his own wounds and forgave them, replying when asked whether to destroy them‘No, do not destroy them, for I hope that Allah will bring out of their offspring people who worship Him alone without associating any partner with Him in worship." What a beautiful excellent response, look at the humiliy, the control. This is the man's values that we Muslims follow, we follow this beautiful Deen, the legacy oF Rassullulah, and the islamophobes will never be able to extinguish the light of this Deen because it is preserved in the hearts of the believers by Allah Azzawajal.
May Allah educate ourselves, our entire Ummah, the way it is supposed to be educated. May Allah lift the Ummah from the darkness that it suffers from. May Allah make us of those who can speak the word of truth courageously and be able to engage with each other in civil, respectful disagreement when the time comes. And may Allah make us of those who truly represent the beauty of this Deen to their neighbors and to the world around us. Ma Salaama!
Anonymous wrote:Muslima wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:
So you never even watched the videos in the links I provided? Wow. HA! You just exposed yourself as a Islamophobe and Islam hater, do you know that? The questions you asked are directly addressed and answered in the youtube links!! You chose not to watch them!
No matter, because now they are permanently a part of DCUM and I assure you that others will watch them.
I hope you're not a Christian or Jew, as you reflect poorly on the vast majority of Christians and Jews I know.
OK. Muslima provided the links and videos between the hours of 1-3 last night. And you're asking about us watching the links *you* provided. Seems pretty clear that you and Muslima are the same person.
Busted!
Stop lying. I have not posted links to any youtube videos yesterday or the day before, or today......
Salaam Sister,
Hit the REPORT button and tell Jeff about the two posters who posted racist messages on this thread.
I plan to do same.
Salaam sister,
Great. Ignorance and prejudice are the handmaiden of propaganda and this has been demonstrated over and over by those posters. ..racist thought and action says far more about the person they come from than the person they are directed at.
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:And there you have it folks! We have one person who thought she was criticizing Muslims by pointing out most of our converts were Africans and now we have another poster who tells Muslima to go back to her country.
So the whole time we thought they were legitimately seeking info, but now they are exposed as nothing but a handful of RACIST ISLAMOPHOBES.
Islam is a belief system, not a race. Hatred of Islam is not racism, it is hatred of a particular set of beliefs that some individuals have chosen to believe.
It is racist to point out the race of Muslim converts with the intent to de legitimize, undermine, devalue and demean their conversions. Unfortunately for you that racism is not acceptable in Islam. Your posts say a lot about what kind of person you are! It is tragic to live with this level of ignorance in this day and age.
Anonymous wrote:Muslima wrote:Anonymous wrote:Muslima wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:
Contrary to you, I have a husband, children, and a job. I am more than happy to answer every question, but after my responsibilities are taken care of. I will be back with a few great links later.
Yes, please answer the following questions, which posters have been asking you for pages and pages.
(1) Does the Quran, or does the Quran not, require Muslims to kill those who leave the faith? You denied this, but two people have posted quotes from the Quran that suggest you're not being entirely truthful here.
(2) Does the Quran, or does the Quran not, permit Muslim soldiers to rape female captives?
(3) Does the Quran, or does the Quran not, require Muslims to try to convert non-Muslims? Again, you denied this categorically, but someone posted a quote from the Quran that suggests you're not being entirely truthful here.
There are several other things, but that's enough for now. After so many pages of obfuscation, it feels like, if you answer these questions, it will be a miracle.
PS. I'm off to talk to my husband and my younger child, my older child having gone off to college. I've finished my work for the day. But thanks for the unnecessary condescension!
Well here's your miracle, then. Your questions are not unusual. They are often the questions of either people who genuinely misunderstand Islam and want to learn more, or they are the questions of people who make it their mission to eradicate Islam by intentionally vilifying it regardless of what clarification they receive. Since with the previous link I posted of the scholar Hamza Yusuf, you accused me of shopping around to simply find a more palatable version of Islam, I'm posting this link of another scholar that is perhaps more to your liking. This is a link of a highly reputable Islamic scholar, Dr. Jamal Badawi of Halifax, Nova Scotia. It answers questions (1) and (3).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p4D9aB21DwM
It would be wise for you to watch it in its entirety. Contact him directly if you need further clarification. He is very accessible.
They are not interested in an honest and educated discussion about Islam and what Muslims believe, that's why I recused myself from the discussion. Jummah Mubarak to you
You were sooooo right! I plan to post these regularly on new threads if only to dispel myths about Islam that these extremist evangelical groups try to spread. I was never into this kind of stuff before but I plan to write a few articles and see if I can get them published in non Muslim magazines. This thread helped me to recognize that Muslims need to do more work to disseminate the truth about their religion.
Jummuah mubarak to you too!! Great " meeting" you!
I think that would be a good thing. It was refreshing reading you as well! I used to blog and write a lot about Islam and it was well received for the most part. I think Islam is the most misunderstood religion in the world. Not just by non-Muslims, but by some Muslims as well. Mainly, non-Muslims information on Islam is based on ignorant and islamophobic sources. And many Muslims are born into this religion without anyone really explaining it to them. And unfortunately thre actions and behavior of both groups reflect their lack of understanding. And finally you have people who twist the verses of the Qur'an in order to spread their hate. The end result is a lot of confused people and a lot of confusion about what Islam really teaches. In the end though, speak your heart. Many people won't understand. But that's okay. Your message wasn't meant for them. It will reach those whom it was.
Well said. Truth. I was bewildered when they accused you of proselytizing. And then suspicious of their intent when they categorically rejected every rationale, and then when they did not watch any of the youtube links provided, it confirmed to me they were never interested in learning. They only wanted to vilify a religion that is beloved to billions. The only reason I can see for this level of hostility is fear, fear that Islam is spreading too fast and too close to their home. I think its a blessing its spreading so fast in the US because it increases the pressure that will be put on those continuing to follow a more culturally influenced and intolerant Islam ( in other countries).
This thread has helped me to recognize I can work to dispel myths in many ways. One way is blogging, of course. Another way is to publish articles in non Muslim magazines. Another way is to work for CAIR or Karamah. You writing is terrific, you should consider publishing.
Yes blogging would be a good way to start, there are tons of people out there who have a genuine interest in learning about the true teachings of Islam. Once you start with blogging, you can expand to other outlets as well and volunteer in organizations like "why Islam" ect... A lot of islamophobia is indeed due to fear, fear caused mostly by ignorance but the good thing is phobias for the most part can be cured!
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:
So you never even watched the videos in the links I provided? Wow. HA! You just exposed yourself as a Islamophobe and Islam hater, do you know that? The questions you asked are directly addressed and answered in the youtube links!! You chose not to watch them!
No matter, because now they are permanently a part of DCUM and I assure you that others will watch them.
I hope you're not a Christian or Jew, as you reflect poorly on the vast majority of Christians and Jews I know.
OK. Muslima provided the links and videos between the hours of 1-3 last night. And you're asking about us watching the links *you* provided. Seems pretty clear that you and Muslima are the same person.
Busted!
Stop lying. I have not posted links to any youtube videos yesterday or the day before, or today......