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Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Muslima wrote:Pope Francis, a human Pope who understands people's realities and psyches quite well.
Pope Francis suggested there are limits to freedom of expression, saying in response to the Charlie Hebdo terror attack that "one cannot make fun of faith" and that anyone who throws insults can expect a "punch."
The pontiff said that both freedom of faith and freedom of speech were fundamental human rights and that "every religion has its dignity."
"One cannot provoke, one cannot insult other people's faith, one cannot make fun of faith," he said. "There is a limit. Every religion has its dignity ... in freedom of expression there are limits."
http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/paris-magazine-attack/pope-francis-freedom-speech-one-cannot-make-fun-faith-n286631
Indeed, the Catholic church has sued CH many times over the years. Although I am surprised by Pope Francis's words. What about turning the other cheek?
The men who murdered all of the cartoonists were not Catholic. Did you forget?
I am not surprised at all, the Catholic church has a very long history of strict control of the press and total intolerance toward anything that goes against the teaching of the church or that it may be considered blasphemous. in the middle ages the death penalty was normally administered. Galileo had to recount his scientific publication on heliocentrism after being tried for heresy and then spent the rest of his life under house arrest. if he did not recanted, he would have been executed (and for a scientific paper). the Church State (the area of Italy under control of the Pope) had the death penalty until around1860, when it was conquered by Italy's king and the Pope lost control of the land except for the Vatican, and offending the Church was a crime. Changes on the Church have been forced from the outside society. The Church certainly does not advocate the execution of somebody for blasphemy (although it happily did it in the past), but on the limitation to the freedom of speech and expression as far as religion is concerned, it is fully aligned with Islam
I don't know enough about catholicism to know if there is a limitation on freedom of speech. Islam is a religion that challenges and invites dialogue. The Qur'an, doesn't just ask us to have faith. It challenges all criticisms, it challenges you to be very open minded, think critically and avoid blind faith BUT that's not how some Muslims behave.Any limitations on this issue are those self-imposed by Muslims themselves. More than 60,000 books have been written against Islam in a the last 150 years and those authors moved on with their lives....
Pope Francis, a human Pope who understands people's realities and psyches quite well.
http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/paris-magazine-attack/pope-francis-freedom-speech-one-cannot-make-fun-faith-n286631
Pope Francis suggested there are limits to freedom of expression, saying in response to the Charlie Hebdo terror attack that "one cannot make fun of faith" and that anyone who throws insults can expect a "punch."
The pontiff said that both freedom of faith and freedom of speech were fundamental human rights and that "every religion has its dignity."
"One cannot provoke, one cannot insult other people's faith, one cannot make fun of faith," he said. "There is a limit. Every religion has its dignity ... in freedom of expression there are limits."
http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/paris-magazine-attack/pope-francis-freedom-speech-one-cannot-make-fun-faith-n286631
Anonymous wrote:Muslima wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Someone explain this quote from the article to me:
"'It is not permitted to kill and also it is not permitted to humiliate a billion Muslims,' he said.
How exactly does a cartoon or a physical depiction of Muhammed "humiliate" Muslims?
It's not really something that our mindset can properly understand.
Maybe Muslima could explain it better to us. As a Christian, it offends me to see anyone make fun of God or Jesus, but it certainly doen't "humiliate" me, I just feel sorry for the people doing it and pray that they find salvation. I certainly don't take it as an assault or insult on me personally. I don't understand how insulting Muhammad humiliates Muslims.
I don't know if "humiliate" is the right word, I don't think english was his first language. To understand Muslims' usual angry reactions at pornographic depictions of the Prophet (peace be upon him) or insults, you have to understand the Love Muslims have for the Prophet (saw). It is a requirement of the Islamic faith to love the Prophet (peace be upon him) more than you love yourself, your parents, your children, your wealth, anything else in this world. So, for most Muslims, they love the Prophet (saws) more than anything else in this world, and if you insult him, you just have insulted the dearest thing to them and they take it as a personal offense. I have seen Muslims get incredibly sad, cry till they get sick when people insult the Prophet (saw), they are deeply deeply hurt. It might just be satire, or humor to you, but this is more an emotional reaction than a theologian one for most Muslims. They are hurt and some just don't know how to express this pain. I guess for a Non-Muslim, it would be as if you dearly love your mother and someone depicts her in pornographic images and insults her, that would be offensive to you. I will say: we defend the things we love. That is one way we can show our love.For most ordinary Muslims, the CH controversy is not really about the cover, its about the sentiment it carries. It's that someone knows that it could be offensive to you and they perceive to seek to offend you and that's the sore point . It is a source of sensitivity for many people. You have to also understand that Muslims are not Islam, there is a rainbow of us, but the thing that draws us together is this commonality in the belief of one God and that he sent many messengers , the last being Prophet Muhammad SAW and our love for him. Now, having said that, in absolutely clear words, warranting no discussion, the Quran never enjoins people to murder or persecute those who mock Islam or any of its precepts or prophets. On the contrary, it advises us to resolve such issues either through peaceful and civil dialogue, or by simply ignoring such remarks.
ok
Let me get this straight.
So your prophet (wth is up with "saw?"), who can't be seen, is taunted, and that's apparently more important than the death of people who had families and friends and who lived, loved, and laughed.
I definitely get it.
priorities are fucked up
Your implication that they somehow condone Boko Haram or don't care about the 2000 dead in Nigeria because they protested about the cartoons is a frightening display of your inability to engage in simple comprehension. So yes, I will agree with you, priorities are F* up !
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Someone explain this quote from the article to me:
"'It is not permitted to kill and also it is not permitted to humiliate a billion Muslims,' he said.
How exactly does a cartoon or a physical depiction of Muhammed "humiliate" Muslims?
It's not really something that our mindset can properly understand.
Maybe Muslima could explain it better to us. As a Christian, it offends me to see anyone make fun of God or Jesus, but it certainly doen't "humiliate" me, I just feel sorry for the people doing it and pray that they find salvation. I certainly don't take it as an assault or insult on me personally. I don't understand how insulting Muhammad humiliates Muslims.
I don't know if "humiliate" is the right word, I don't think english was his first language. To understand Muslims' usual angry reactions at pornographic depictions of the Prophet (peace be upon him) or insults, you have to understand the Love Muslims have for the Prophet (saw). It is a requirement of the Islamic faith to love the Prophet (peace be upon him) more than you love yourself, your parents, your children, your wealth, anything else in this world. So, for most Muslims, they love the Prophet (saws) more than anything else in this world, and if you insult him, you just have insulted the dearest thing to them and they take it as a personal offense. I have seen Muslims get incredibly sad, cry till they get sick when people insult the Prophet (saw), they are deeply deeply hurt. It might just be satire, or humor to you, but this is more an emotional reaction than a theologian one for most Muslims. They are hurt and some just don't know how to express this pain. I guess for a Non-Muslim, it would be as if you dearly love your mother and someone depicts her in pornographic images and insults her, that would be offensive to you. I will say: we defend the things we love. That is one way we can show our love.For most ordinary Muslims, the CH controversy is not really about the cover, its about the sentiment it carries. It's that someone knows that it could be offensive to you and they perceive to seek to offend you and that's the sore point . It is a source of sensitivity for many people. You have to also understand that Muslims are not Islam, there is a rainbow of us, but the thing that draws us together is this commonality in the belief of one God and that he sent many messengers , the last being Prophet Muhammad SAW and our love for him. Now, having said that, in absolutely clear words, warranting no discussion, the Quran never enjoins people to murder or persecute those who mock Islam or any of its precepts or prophets. On the contrary, it advises us to resolve such issues either through peaceful and civil dialogue, or by simply ignoring such remarks.
Anonymous wrote:Muslima wrote:
Actually, atheists are less than nothing since they waste resources and produce fecal matter. A rock is much cleaner and harmonious with the universe.
You could say the same for believers. wasting resources and producing fecal matter are characteristics of all animals, irrespective of their religious beliefs. I suppose souls in heaven don't have to worry about these things, but there's nothing in the bible about it, so I guess we'll just have to wait and see
No such a thing in heaven according to the Islamic belief. The prophet SAW said:
‘’..They will not urinate, excrete, blow their noses nor, spit. Their combs will be (made) of Gold and they will sweat musk’’ (Muslim)
The man replied ’Oh Muhammad, Where will they excrete after that (after eating/drinking)?’. The prophet SAW replied ‘They will sweat and their sweat will be musk’. (Ahmad)
Well, that settles it for Muslims, but it doesn't apply to Christians, It's my understanding that souls -- which are what goes to heaven, are entirely different from bodies and don't do need to eat or excrete. However, both Jesus and Mary ascended bodily into heaven, so I don't know that the deal is for them -- maybe the muslim way -- but you never hear anything about it
I see. For us, the belief is that bodies go to heaven but not as we know them now, they are different bodies ( never get sick or tired ect )
Anonymous wrote:Riots and looting are a great American pastime of the poor and disenfranchised...just like burning couches in the street after a big college sports win is an American thing.
Jihad isn't American. It just isn't.
Yeh? That's why there is an American who just got arrested for plotting an attack on the U.S Capitol.....
Actually, atheists are less than nothing since they waste resources and produce fecal matter. A rock is much cleaner and harmonious with the universe.
You could say the same for believers. wasting resources and producing fecal matter are characteristics of all animals, irrespective of their religious beliefs. I suppose souls in heaven don't have to worry about these things, but there's nothing in the bible about it, so I guess we'll just have to wait and see
No such a thing in heaven according to the Islamic belief. The prophet SAW said:
‘’..They will not urinate, excrete, blow their noses nor, spit. Their combs will be (made) of Gold and they will sweat musk’’ (Muslim)
The man replied ’Oh Muhammad, Where will they excrete after that (after eating/drinking)?’. The prophet SAW replied ‘They will sweat and their sweat will be musk’. (Ahmad)
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:^^ Christ said " what is good? No one is good except the father ."
Christians do not believe they are good. They believe they are forgiven and saved by grace.
My children are good.
I don't need a god to tell me that I'm wrong in thinking that.
My children are good and kind and loving.
BS. Children are self centered . When is the last time they gave their brand new toys to a poor kid?
Why are you attacking the poster's children? What is wrong with you? Have some decency
Anonymous wrote:Muslima wrote:Anonymous wrote:Muslima wrote:Anonymous wrote:Muslima wrote:Racism, Religious Bigotry and Discrimination does not promote a more "civil" society. "Where justice is denied, where poverty is enforced, where ignorance prevails, and where any one class is made to feel that society is an organized conspiracy to oppress, rob and degrade them, neither persons nor property will be safe." - Frederick Douglass
Except the ranks of ISIS are apparently full of young Muslims from the Western countries where you cannot possibly say they lacked opportunity for advancement.
Read about ISIS history, how it started and what they are fighting for. They are able radicalize young western people, some of whom have identity crisis, just like young Americans join gangs, do drugs, get drugs, you will find some young Muslims joining these groups because they give them a sense of identity and belonging. Radicalization is an individualized process so I can't paint them all with the same brush, but most of them are young men and women looking to belong to a group/movement that gives them a purpose. There are many underlying reasons, and this is just one of them .
Then there is no reason to say that terrorist groups attract only the poor, the dispossessed and the uneducated.
I did not say that
then what exactly did you mean with your douglass quote?
Re-read the Quote, that is not what it says
Anonymous wrote:Muslima wrote:Yes, you certainly can, just like I can use mine to say how ridiculous and idiotic it is for a bunch of cartoonists not to have anything better to do than sit in a room and caricature people highly-held in regard by different groups of people. There's got to be a more noble way of earning a living other than making minorities/immigrants feel small in your country by satirizing their iconic figures. But hey, to each their own~
The extreme Islamists in France should know that they live in a country that values satire and free speech generally. If they have a problem with that, perhaps there's another country (and mindset) where they would feel more at home.
Maybe they will listen to you this time....
Anonymous wrote:Muslima wrote:Anonymous wrote:Muslima wrote:Racism, Religious Bigotry and Discrimination does not promote a more "civil" society. "Where justice is denied, where poverty is enforced, where ignorance prevails, and where any one class is made to feel that society is an organized conspiracy to oppress, rob and degrade them, neither persons nor property will be safe." - Frederick Douglass
The study cited upthread says it ain't so.
And there are studies that show that suppression of civil liberties and political rights are one of the main causes of Terrorism
Pls post.
Root Causes
The relationship between terrorism and democracy continues to challenge scholars in their search for causes of terrorism. It is generally agreed that a lack of democracy, civil liberties and the rule of law are preconditions for many forms of domestic terrorism. Generally, the most democratic and the most totalitarian societies have the lowest levels of oppositional violence. Failed or weak states on the other hand, lack the capacity – or sometimes the will – to exercise territorial control. This often leaves a power vacuum that is can be exploited by terrorist organizations to maintain safe havens, training facilities or serve as bases for launching terrorist campaigns. However, this should not be perceived as simply a lack of democracy or democratic processes. Long standing liberal democracies with established traditions of free speech and tolerance have been the targets of both domestic and foreign terrorism. As Crenshaw contends “[d]emocracy and terrorism are not polar opposites: saying ‘yes’ to democracy unfortunately, does not mean saying ‘no’ to terrorism” (Club de Madrid, 2005: 14).
Hegemony and inequality of power. When local or international powers possess an overwhelming power compared to oppositional groups, and the latter see no other realistic ways to forward their cause by normal political or military means, “asymmetrical warfare” can represent a tempting option. Terrorism offers the possibility of achieving high political impact with limited means. Illegitimate or corrupt governments frequently give rise to opposition that may turn to terrorist means if other avenues are not seen as realistic options for replacing these regimes with a more credible and legitimate government or a regime which represents the values and interests of the opposition movement.
Powerful external actors upholding illegitimate governments may be seen as an insurmountable obstacle to needed regime change. Such external support to illegitimate governments is frequently seen as foreign domination through puppet regimes serving the political and economic interests of foreign sponsors. Repression by foreign occupation or by colonial powers has given rise to a great many national liberation movements that have sought recourse in terrorist tactics and other political means. Despite their use of terrorist methods, some liberation movements enjoy considerable support and legitimacy among their own constituencies, and sometimes also from segments of international public opinion.
The experience of discrimination on the basis of ethnic or religious origin is the chief root cause of ethno-nationalist terrorism. When sizeable minorities are systematically deprived of their rights to equal social and economic opportunities, obstructed from expressing their cultural identities (e.g. forbidden to use their language or practice their religion), or excluded from political influence, this can give rise to secessionist movements that may turn to terrorism or other forms of violent struggle. Ethnic nationalisms are more likely to give rise to (and justify) terrorism than are moderate and inclusive civic nationalisms.
Trigger Causes
The first condition that can be considered a direct cause of terrorism is the existence of concrete grievances among an identifiable subgroup of a larger population, such as an ethnic minority discriminated against by the majority. This is not to say, however, that the existence of a dissatisfied minority or majority is a necessary or even a sufficient cause for terrorism; for not all those who are discriminated against turn to terrorism.
The second condition that can create motivations for terrorism is the lack of opportunity for political participation. The last category of situational factors involves the concept of a precipitated event that immediately precedes outbreaks of terrorism. While general consensus points to the fact that precipitants (trigger causes) are usually unpredictable, a common pattern has emerged that highlights particular government actions as catalysts for terrorism. Terrorist retaliations can thus occur as a result of unusual and unexpected use of force by the government, a so-called “action-reaction syndrome” (Crenshaw 1981, 385). In general, provocative events that call for revenge or action, may trigger terrorist action by spoilers on both sides. Contested elections, police brutality and even peace talks are all examples of triggering causes.
Source: http://www.transnationalterrorism.eu/tekst/publications/Root%20and%20Trigger.pdf
Anonymous wrote:Muslima wrote:Anonymous wrote:Muslima wrote:Racism, Religious Bigotry and Discrimination does not promote a more "civil" society. "Where justice is denied, where poverty is enforced, where ignorance prevails, and where any one class is made to feel that society is an organized conspiracy to oppress, rob and degrade them, neither persons nor property will be safe." - Frederick Douglass
Except the ranks of ISIS are apparently full of young Muslims from the Western countries where you cannot possibly say they lacked opportunity for advancement.
Read about ISIS history, how it started and what they are fighting for. They are able radicalize young western people, some of whom have identity crisis, just like young Americans join gangs, do drugs, get drugs, you will find some young Muslims joining these groups because they give them a sense of identity and belonging. Radicalization is an individualized process so I can't paint them all with the same brush, but most of them are young men and women looking to belong to a group/movement that gives them a purpose. There are many underlying reasons, and this is just one of them .
Then there is no reason to say that terrorist groups attract only the poor, the dispossessed and the uneducated.
I did not say that
Anonymous wrote:Muslima wrote:Racism, Religious Bigotry and Discrimination does not promote a more "civil" society. "Where justice is denied, where poverty is enforced, where ignorance prevails, and where any one class is made to feel that society is an organized conspiracy to oppress, rob and degrade them, neither persons nor property will be safe." - Frederick Douglass
The study cited upthread says it ain't so.
And there are studies that show that suppression of civil liberties and political rights are one of the main causes of Terrorism
Anonymous wrote:Yeh, and more Islamist extremist will senselessly kill in the name of their Prophet. Now, the children are being brought on board to do the dirty work.Muslima wrote:Anonymous wrote:I think it's a matter of time, sadly.Muslima wrote:Damned if you do, Damned if you don't, my goodness, get a grip. They are exercising their right to freedom of speech by marching and saying what they believe in and what they are protesting against. Would you be happier if they murdered more people?
Yeh and more Muslims will die to in the name of freedom and democracy, it is a vicious circle ~
Yeh, a sad vicious circle ~
Anonymous wrote:Muslima wrote:Racism, Religious Bigotry and Discrimination does not promote a more "civil" society. "Where justice is denied, where poverty is enforced, where ignorance prevails, and where any one class is made to feel that society is an organized conspiracy to oppress, rob and degrade them, neither persons nor property will be safe." - Frederick Douglass
Except the ranks of ISIS are apparently full of young Muslims from the Western countries where you cannot possibly say they lacked opportunity for advancement.
Read about ISIS history, how it started and what they are fighting for. They are able radicalize young western people, some of whom have identity crisis, just like young Americans join gangs, do drugs, get drugs, you will find some young Muslims joining these groups because they give them a sense of identity and belonging. Radicalization is an individualized process so I can't paint them all with the same brush, but most of them are young men and women looking to belong to a group/movement that gives them a purpose. There are many underlying reasons, and this is just one of them .