2022 Olympics

[Anonymous]

Is there any US governing body that oversees the training of these children in skating and gymnastics? Is there anyone who is making sure they are not underfed, or overworked? I shudder to think of all the young women we've never heard of who have been just destroyed in the pursuit of these endeavors before they even get their period.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Re: the gymnasts-

Gymnastics changed over time. It used to be more artistic, as well.

I remember watching gymnastics in the early 90s and Bela's girls all had the same muscle-packed bottom half look vs many of the other gymnasts who looked like ballerinas.

Yes, the tricks are amazing, but at what cost? There was long standing mental abuse during that era PLUS a cover up of a sexual predator who ruined hundreds of young lives.

Is this what we want?

Actually, it is well known in skating circles that Tara left the coaches at Univ of Delaware because they weren't allowing her to train triples super duper young. Which, ok, she got her an olympic gold at 15 BUT wound up needing hip surgery at 18.

Your Tara story brings a point that I think is still uncomfortable for a wider public to digest. A child who wants to be an Olympic champion AND is prepared to do whatever it takes is a child different from other children. They have different motivations, different (much higher) ability to tolerate pain and discomfort, and invest whatever it takes to get to the top. I think we like to indulge in a fantasy of a "well rounded child", whatever that is, who goes to school, gets all As, plays the piano, skates two hours a day and somehow gets on the Olympic podium. This doesn't exist. Children on this path are made differently, from a different human material. And any coach can tell you that a child cannot be forced to train to the point of Olympic medal; that type of drive must come from within. Look at Trusova (who behaved badly, I think) and you see that to that child, anything other than first place is not acceptable, that she is ready to die on the ice training quads if it means getting to the top, that she would do them even in an empty rink with no spectators because SHE WANTS TO SO BADLY. It's OK Sasha, you didn't win but you are in history books.

A good example of this now is soccer player Olivia Moultrie who went pro at 15. She really is one of those people

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Can any of the US women do a quad or is this just a Russian women thing? I mean they are so physically demanding--to do 5 in one skate and most of them in the 2nd half, that is just insane. I do think whoever governs international figure skating scoring should revaluate the bonus awarded for doing a quad in the 2nd half. It's just grueling--why not just go back to the old version of judging on technical and artistic merit and if you can do a quad great--if not maybe you do 4 triples and that equals doing 2 quads. this obsession with quads is crazy

Not consistently and not perfectly. But I suspect we'll get there. The US uses older techniques which aren't as good. We don't need to abuse tweens to win, but I do think there is runway for the the US skaters to improve.

except, ARE the techniques good? The push to do quads in Russia is destroying young bodies. And they are likely doping and underfeeding their girls to get them. Is this really what we want?

I think Alysa has done quads, but with her growing, it may not happen.

I honestly think we need to lay off the quads. There is just a limit to what these young women should be doing to their bodies.

I think adult athletes should pursue whatever goals they want.

I think our obsession with having children compete in figure skating and gymnastics in order to avoid the body changes that girls go through in their late teens and early 20s is messed up. It's not so much that it's wrong to pursue a quad -- the men (who are older and don't have the same schedule of puberty development) do it and it's fine. It's that the Russians and others who are determined to get women doing quads don't work with women -- they work with small children and they work AGAINST the normal and inevitable development of those children's bodies.

Women should have to be 18 to compete at the international level and there should be far more investigation/enforcement of training conditions for underage skaters. This is abuse, pure and simple.

I think you and others like you are deliberately oblivious to the larger truth, which is this: To achieve excellence in high technical complexity rewarded by the system today, you MUST begin training at an early age. It's silly to say, OK, you are now 18, let's learn quads! By the time you're 18, the train to learn the quads have left the station. And it's the same for men. You aren't really saying men don't begin to learn quads till 18, are you? Of course not. They learn them at the same age, it's just that they keep them longer because they don't grow breasts and hips.

I think it's OK to say, look, to have your quads at 18 you obviously have to learn them much earlier, and we don't want this for little girls so let's ban quads or not reward them. I'm perfectly fine with this change. But to say "only adult women should learn quads" is deliberately blind.

Is a mental block in figure skating common too? If it’s like gymnastics, younger kids have easier time getting harder skills because they are smaller, more flexible and also less chance of a mental block.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Perhaps the solution is something like Japan's system, where they have a national-level summer camp system, but train in their home provinces the rest of the year. Their system also seems to create longevity in their skaters.

https://olympics.nbcsports.com/2019/03/12/how-japan-built-figure-skating-powerhouse/

Isn't that kind of like US Gymnastics and the Karoyli Ranch? It could be effective with proper oversight.

It IS effective with proper oversight in the US post-karolyi. They did a lot of harm, but the karolyis did set up the national training system.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Can any of the US women do a quad or is this just a Russian women thing? I mean they are so physically demanding--to do 5 in one skate and most of them in the 2nd half, that is just insane. I do think whoever governs international figure skating scoring should revaluate the bonus awarded for doing a quad in the 2nd half. It's just grueling--why not just go back to the old version of judging on technical and artistic merit and if you can do a quad great--if not maybe you do 4 triples and that equals doing 2 quads. this obsession with quads is crazy

Not consistently and not perfectly. But I suspect we'll get there. The US uses older techniques which aren't as good. We don't need to abuse tweens to win, but I do think there is runway for the the US skaters to improve.

except, ARE the techniques good? The push to do quads in Russia is destroying young bodies. And they are likely doping and underfeeding their girls to get them. Is this really what we want?

I think Alysa has done quads, but with her growing, it may not happen.

I honestly think we need to lay off the quads. There is just a limit to what these young women should be doing to their bodies.

I think adult athletes should pursue whatever goals they want.

I think our obsession with having children compete in figure skating and gymnastics in order to avoid the body changes that girls go through in their late teens and early 20s is messed up. It's not so much that it's wrong to pursue a quad -- the men (who are older and don't have the same schedule of puberty development) do it and it's fine. It's that the Russians and others who are determined to get women doing quads don't work with women -- they work with small children and they work AGAINST the normal and inevitable development of those children's bodies.

Women should have to be 18 to compete at the international level and there should be far more investigation/enforcement of training conditions for underage skaters. This is abuse, pure and simple.

I think you and others like you are deliberately oblivious to the larger truth, which is this: To achieve excellence in high technical complexity rewarded by the system today, you MUST begin training at an early age. It's silly to say, OK, you are now 18, let's learn quads! By the time you're 18, the train to learn the quads have left the station. And it's the same for men. You aren't really saying men don't begin to learn quads till 18, are you? Of course not. They learn them at the same age, it's just that they keep them longer because they don't grow breasts and hips.

I think it's OK to say, look, to have your quads at 18 you obviously have to learn them much earlier, and we don't want this for little girls so let's ban quads or not reward them. I'm perfectly fine with this change. But to say "only adult women should learn quads" is deliberately blind.

Is a mental block in figure skating common too? If it’s like gymnastics, younger kids have easier time getting harder skills because they are smaller, more flexible and also less chance of a mental block.

Absolutely. See what happened yesterday!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Can any of the US women do a quad or is this just a Russian women thing? I mean they are so physically demanding--to do 5 in one skate and most of them in the 2nd half, that is just insane. I do think whoever governs international figure skating scoring should revaluate the bonus awarded for doing a quad in the 2nd half. It's just grueling--why not just go back to the old version of judging on technical and artistic merit and if you can do a quad great--if not maybe you do 4 triples and that equals doing 2 quads. this obsession with quads is crazy

Alysa Liu was the first US female skater to land a quad in competition. It happened in 2019 and hasn't happened by her since because she grew. I'm not sure she still has it, tbh. I don't believe any other US female skaters have a quad in their arsenals of skills.

I will see if I can find it, but I read a fantastic article on why US female skaters don't have the quad. It boiled down to US skating keeping female skaters dainty and feminine, so they lacked the athleticism and muscle needed to land quads. Now that they are very important to the higher scores, the hope for the US is on the shoulders of younger skaters just starting out. Their training needs to include even more strength training to build them up to be strong enough to land the quad and have it in their skillset.

The article also pointed out how US women's gymnastics had the same issue with trying to keep gymnasts dainty and feminine looking. They didn't want the female gymnasts to appear too muscular or toned. The switch to "allowing" more muscular and powerful women gymnasts happened in the 90s, I believe the article stated. After Retton in the 80s, the US women didn't really start dominating gymnastics until the 90s when the switch started to happen.

For example, the 1988 US Women's Olympic Gymnastics team:

Very dainty and feminine looking.

The 1996 US Women's Olympic Gymnastics team:

Much more visibly muscular.

And of course now, the women gymnasts are absolute beasts who dominate!

So what is it? Some of you (poster above with the photos) are saying Americans can't land quads because you need big muscles to land them, but some of you are saying you need to be a waif to land quads like the Russian skaters.

I think so far it looks like that, but I don't see why it's true. Unless you need to be so light that you can get that much higher to rotate 4 times. But IMO the issue is our technique, not our skaters' sizes.

The Russians’ technique is leading to injuries and early retirement from the sport.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Is there any US governing body that oversees the training of these children in skating and gymnastics? Is there anyone who is making sure they are not underfed, or overworked? I shudder to think of all the young women we've never heard of who have been just destroyed in the pursuit of these endeavors before they even get their period.

Yes, but who knows how effective it is: https://www.usfigureskating.org/skatesafe

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
So what is it? Some of you (poster above with the photos) are saying Americans can't land quads because you need big muscles to land them, but some of you are saying you need to be a waif to land quads like the Russian skaters.

I think so far it looks like that, but I don't see why it's true. Unless you need to be so light that you can get that much higher to rotate 4 times. But IMO the issue is our technique, not our skaters' sizes.

The Russians’ technique is leading to injuries and early retirement from the sport.

There are two techniques at play here, the curved entry technique does result in more strain on the back, but we see a lot of other athletes use it, including Nathan Chen. The Sambo 70 technique that leads to early retirement, involves a lot of malnutrition and restricting water, and I don't think anyone is advocating for that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Is there any US governing body that oversees the training of these children in skating and gymnastics? Is there anyone who is making sure they are not underfed, or overworked? I shudder to think of all the young women we've never heard of who have been just destroyed in the pursuit of these endeavors before they even get their period.

Well, before we get all super insane about this, lets be clear that this level of pressure and training exisits in most high-level sports for both genders from a very young age. Gymnastics and skating may be the worst all around, but there are lots of 11 year olds training 7 days a week/2-3 hours a day in soccer in local clubs. If you want to be a very serious athlete in non-team sports, you ramp down your schooling and ramp up your training. See: skiing, tennis, dance, etc.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

The Russians’ technique is leading to injuries and early retirement from the sport.

LOL yes Tara Lipinski and Sarah Hughes fled the sport at 16 because of the Russians' technique.

Wake up. Early retirement is a reality of this sport. Katarina Witt was the last champion with breasts.

[Anonymous]

What’s in it for the Russian skaters post Olympics? I assume in the Communist era, it meant securing your family’s future. Now, what does it mean? It’s not like Russia is a booming market where they could have a future in endorsements (like Eileen Gu)? Or do they? What are the prior Olympic medalists doing now?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:What’s in it for the Russian skaters post Olympics? I assume in the Communist era, it meant securing your family’s future. Now, what does it mean? It’s not like Russia is a booming market where they could have a future in endorsements (like Eileen Gu)? Or do they? What are the prior Olympic medalists doing now?

Same as here- become a spokesperson, commentator, sponsor for products, sought-after coach.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

The Russians’ technique is leading to injuries and early retirement from the sport.

LOL yes Tara Lipinski and Sarah Hughes fled the sport at 16 because of the Russians' technique.

Wake up. Early retirement is a reality of this sport. Katarina Witt was the last champion with breasts.

again - not a good thing

burning out your body in your teens is NOT something we should be encouraging

[Anonymous]

Kamila is back in Russia and i'm so glad that she was welcomed with cheers and flowers. I am one of the many that believed that she should not have been allowed to skate, but I never blamed the poor girl for the debacle. Her coaches and team really failed her. I feel bad for the girl and hope she can somehow overcome this and come out stronger. Bonus point if she can leave Eteri & Co.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pTx-4NAzt_w

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What’s in it for the Russian skaters post Olympics? I assume in the Communist era, it meant securing your family’s future. Now, what does it mean? It’s not like Russia is a booming market where they could have a future in endorsements (like Eileen Gu)? Or do they? What are the prior Olympic medalists doing now?

Same as here- become a spokesperson, commentator, sponsor for products, sought-after coach.

Stars on Ice type things are also still popular over there.