Here's the thing I don't understand about husbands who don't help out

[Anonymous]

OP you sound ridiculous. You can’t make a gown man do anything. So he brings back the wrong item from a store. You tell him to go back, he says no. What are you going to do? Have a tantrum? Threaten divorce over him getting green grapes instead of red grapes?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It makes me crazy how everyone always says a cleaning service will magically solve this problem. Or that I need to “relax my standards”.

We are a family of 4 and every day entails dishes/laundry/straightening/sweeping/garbage. You can’t outsource all of that unless you can afford a daily housekeeper.

This isn’t a matter of me having exacting standards and wanting a perfect house. It’s basic health and safety. We have to take out garbage, pick up toys off the floor, clean up spills, or it creates hazards for our children’s well being and safety.

I have to remind/cajole/demand/tell/yell at DH to do anything at all. And then praise/honor/appreciate him for every little thing. I’m so exhausted. I have my own job.

I am not trying to downplay what you're going through but I think that you are yelling at your DH about the wrong things. We're a family of 5 and you're right, not everything can be outsourced (although a biweekly cleaner DOES help!).

But the problem isn't that your DH isn't doing all those things, at least, to me, that isn't the primary problem. The problem is that he (presumably) knows this dynamic upsets you a lot and doesn't want to do anything to fix it. That is the fight I had with my husband in the beginning. That is the fight that let him to work on being more proactive. Maybe you've tried all this and your husband just totally sucks a in which case I would tell you to leave because life is too short, but sometimes when I see relationships like this it is because the wife IS mothering the husband instead of demanding him to be an equal partner. Don't fight about the garbage, fight about his refusal to be an equal partner.

Ok, but how? I’ve tried sitting down and talking to him about it. He disagrees with my contention that it is unequal. He might do 5-10% better for a week or two. Then right back to his baseline. I’ve told him, calmly, that I just can’t do it and I am thinking of divorce. I don’t think he wants that but he also seems to think that so long as he is doing something (even if it’s only 5% of the total), then that’s enough or it counts or something.

We are going to try counseling but I have to find the counselor, make the appointment, arrange childcare, put it on DH’s calendar, budget for it, and all that extra labor makes me even more resentful/exhausted.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It makes me crazy how everyone always says a cleaning service will magically solve this problem. Or that I need to “relax my standards”.

We are a family of 4 and every day entails dishes/laundry/straightening/sweeping/garbage. You can’t outsource all of that unless you can afford a daily housekeeper.

This isn’t a matter of me having exacting standards and wanting a perfect house. It’s basic health and safety. We have to take out garbage, pick up toys off the floor, clean up spills, or it creates hazards for our children’s well being and safety.

I have to remind/cajole/demand/tell/yell at DH to do anything at all. And then praise/honor/appreciate him for every little thing. I’m so exhausted. I have my own job.

I am not trying to downplay what you're going through but I think that you are yelling at your DH about the wrong things. We're a family of 5 and you're right, not everything can be outsourced (although a biweekly cleaner DOES help!).

But the problem isn't that your DH isn't doing all those things, at least, to me, that isn't the primary problem. The problem is that he (presumably) knows this dynamic upsets you a lot and doesn't want to do anything to fix it. That is the fight I had with my husband in the beginning. That is the fight that let him to work on being more proactive. Maybe you've tried all this and your husband just totally sucks a in which case I would tell you to leave because life is too short, but sometimes when I see relationships like this it is because the wife IS mothering the husband instead of demanding him to be an equal partner. Don't fight about the garbage, fight about his refusal to be an equal partner.

+1

I agree that it works best if you frame these conversations around respect and equality because it’s not really possible to argue against.

I.e. “Is it fair to make me scrape your dirty plates and load them in the dishwasher? If you could do that yourself, I would really appreciate it.”

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP you sound ridiculous. You can’t make a gown man do anything. So he brings back the wrong item from a store. You tell him to go back, he says no. What are you going to do? Have a tantrum? Threaten divorce over him getting green grapes instead of red grapes?

You sound ridiculous. What husband doesn’t want to bring the right things back? He should want to be good enough for you. And vice versa.

You don’t have to make him go back the first time. Gently point out what he forgot and remind him to get it the next time. But if it continues to happen, that indicates a serious lack of respect. Then you should make an issue of it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It makes me crazy how everyone always says a cleaning service will magically solve this problem. Or that I need to “relax my standards”.

We are a family of 4 and every day entails dishes/laundry/straightening/sweeping/garbage. You can’t outsource all of that unless you can afford a daily housekeeper.

This isn’t a matter of me having exacting standards and wanting a perfect house. It’s basic health and safety. We have to take out garbage, pick up toys off the floor, clean up spills, or it creates hazards for our children’s well being and safety.

I have to remind/cajole/demand/tell/yell at DH to do anything at all. And then praise/honor/appreciate him for every little thing. I’m so exhausted. I have my own job.

I often think the same thing about the 2x monthly cleaning service advice! I totally agree that houses need daily sweeping, tidying, and vacuuming (esp. if you have little kids and or pets) and bathrooms need to be cleaned at least once a week.

People must be living in filth around here if they think 2x a month makes a house clean.

DP. If I could afford cleaners, the cleaners would be useful for scrubbing the bathrooms and folding laundry (weekly-bi weekly will not cut it).

But yeah, the cleaners are not that helpful for other things. You actually have to organize before the cleaners come in. I have wood floors-they are pretty easy to mop if everything is already organized. If I spent all the time organizing, I might as well go ahead and clean the floors.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP you sound ridiculous. You can’t make a gown man do anything. So he brings back the wrong item from a store. You tell him to go back, he says no. What are you going to do? Have a tantrum? Threaten divorce over him getting green grapes instead of red grapes?

Completely agree. Also we have little kids and a trip to the store is a vacation, DH would be delighted to leave me alone with the kids while he makes a second trip and burns another hour. Meanwhile it’s 6 PM and we need to eat dinner.

Our life has no margin for error and when DH wastes time like this (by forgetting things at the store and having to go back), it details everything.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I really can’t control or change my husband.

I do what the OP suggests and it works but the feedback never gets embedded into his brain so we have to have the same conversation over and over again for years. It wears me down. It’s like every single day is a brand new day. I can never assume a foundational base of fundamental knowledge or that he will have learned.

Examples:

-I have to tell DH to pick up dirty diapers off the floor and put them in the garbage. Every single time.
-I have to tell DH, every single night, to please put his dishes in the dishwasher and then start it. If I don’t specifically mention that he needs to finish loading the dishes in, and THEN start it, he will just go start it half full and leave a bunch of dirty dishes on the counter for the morning.
-I have to tell DH to get the kids ready for the day (we trade of days for getting them ready). He has to be told, every time, what that means. I can’t just say “get the kids ready please”. It has to be “can you change them out of their jammies?” And then “can you put shoes on them?” And so on and so forth.

I’m exhausted and bitter.

I would say to him, “it concerns me that you need me to remind you to pick the dirty diapers off the floor every single day. Do you need this type of hand holding at work? No? Then why can’t you remember basic things at home?”

I wouldn’t be nasty but calm and genuine. Personally I suspect he is gas lighting you about not being able to remember but if he isn’t, that would suggest some pretty serious cognitive impairment. I mean that truthfully. I might actually say that to him so the embarrassment gets him off his ass.

I’m the pp. I’ve tried. There is no conversation. He shuts down completely when I bring it up. He cannot account for it or give me any kind of explanation. He just says he will do better and then doesn’t. Basically he just tries to say anything to shut me up and make me go away so the conversation can end as quickly as possible. Silence is his other go to.

My husband is very intelligent and does well at work but That’s it. That’s all he can really handle. We shouldn’t have had 2 kids, or he should have married someone different from me, someone without a career who would be content doing all the housework.

Oof, PP! I feel you on this. My husband is very kind and is willing to pitch in as long as given instructions, but I feel like he is just sort of incapable of doing as much as me on a regular basis. He feels like he deserves a break after work or on the weekends where he can just put his feet up. Which... OK, but we have kids and a household and full-time jobs. If we both took as much of a break as he seems to need, we would be living in squalor and our children would be unfed. So... he gets irritated when I ask him to get off the couch and do a chore. But yet -- this is all still stuff that needs to get done. But then again, he would be 100% OK with never cleaning anything and ordering takeout every day of the week.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It makes me crazy how everyone always says a cleaning service will magically solve this problem. Or that I need to “relax my standards”.

We are a family of 4 and every day entails dishes/laundry/straightening/sweeping/garbage. You can’t outsource all of that unless you can afford a daily housekeeper.

This isn’t a matter of me having exacting standards and wanting a perfect house. It’s basic health and safety. We have to take out garbage, pick up toys off the floor, clean up spills, or it creates hazards for our children’s well being and safety.

I have to remind/cajole/demand/tell/yell at DH to do anything at all. And then praise/honor/appreciate him for every little thing. I’m so exhausted. I have my own job.

I am not trying to downplay what you're going through but I think that you are yelling at your DH about the wrong things. We're a family of 5 and you're right, not everything can be outsourced (although a biweekly cleaner DOES help!).

But the problem isn't that your DH isn't doing all those things, at least, to me, that isn't the primary problem. The problem is that he (presumably) knows this dynamic upsets you a lot and doesn't want to do anything to fix it. That is the fight I had with my husband in the beginning. That is the fight that let him to work on being more proactive. Maybe you've tried all this and your husband just totally sucks a in which case I would tell you to leave because life is too short, but sometimes when I see relationships like this it is because the wife IS mothering the husband instead of demanding him to be an equal partner. Don't fight about the garbage, fight about his refusal to be an equal partner.

Ok, but how? I’ve tried sitting down and talking to him about it. He disagrees with my contention that it is unequal. He might do 5-10% better for a week or two. Then right back to his baseline. I’ve told him, calmly, that I just can’t do it and I am thinking of divorce. I don’t think he wants that but he also seems to think that so long as he is doing something (even if it’s only 5% of the total), then that’s enough or it counts or something.

We are going to try counseling but I have to find the counselor, make the appointment, arrange childcare, put it on DH’s calendar, budget for it, and all that extra labor makes me even more resentful/exhausted.

So there is a core question here. Does your husband care that you are unhappy? If the answer is no, than IMO you should leave. If the answer is yes then the next question is, 'does he care enough to do anything about it?' Again, if at the end of the day the answer is 'not really' then leave.

He needs to believe you when you say you are exceptionally unhappy and you are ready to walk away, and what he does with that information is your answer. My husband doesn't like to see me unhappy and stressed out, that is what motivates him to try to help me. If your husband doesn't want you to be happy and less stressed out, or if is unwilling to exert any effort to make that happen, then you should not be exerting effort to preserve your marriage. And I say that even if you have kids. Divorce is damaging for children but so is watching your parent be perpetually unhappy and disrespected.

Holding your husband accountable and treating him like an adult means you also are prepared to follow up on the consequences if he doesn't hold up his end of the bargain.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Honestly, OP, you sound like his Mother. Your way of teaching your DH to clean the bathroom is how I teach my sons. My DH knows how to clean a bathroom better than I do by learning from his Mother. If your DH is not cleaning the bathroom to your standards, then you should be the one with that chore, or you should learn to accept the way he does it. I mean, you can tell him you don't think it's clean enough, and if he wants you to teach him, then go for it, but don't think it helps any relationship to treat your partner like a child.

You are the one being trained here, and you don't even see it.

+2

It’s sad that they don’t seem to get it. They’re being gas lit.

Very sad....it took me a LONG time to recognize the pattern in my own marriage. Passive aggressive behavior, gaslighting, etc. It sucks that I was so stupid when I was young. My consolation is only that I'm raising two incredible boys that will be wonderful husbands and fathers with hopefully none of those traits, and two girls that will never stand for it and know well ahead of time how to choose a spouse.

[Anonymous]

As usual, 90% of the posts in this thread are internalized misogyny.

The one that offends me most is the idea that any woman who struggles with allocating household duties and childcare with her spouse has somehow failed by either:

1) Being too dumb to marry a "good" husband
2) Being too obtuse to realize her husband sucks more than other husbands
3) Being too lazy to train her "bad" husband
4) Being too incompetent to just do it herself
5) Being too high-strung to just accept less than perfect
6) Being too poor to just hire it out

Imagine what the world would be like if, instead of constantly trying to prove that we alone figured out how to solve gender inequality in our specific marriage by just being smarter or prettier or more organized than all the other lesser women. Imagine if instead we supported each other. Imagine if every time some man said "Whatever, you're never happy anyway so why should I try", all the women backed that man's wife up and said "No, dumbass, you need to try harder."

But no, let's just keep doing this instead. It's working out GREAT.

[Anonymous]

Uh.... here’s what happens OP: The husband says no. I’m not going back to the store. I’m not cleaning the bathroom again. If you don’t like the way I did it, you do it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I really can’t control or change my husband.

I do what the OP suggests and it works but the feedback never gets embedded into his brain so we have to have the same conversation over and over again for years. It wears me down. It’s like every single day is a brand new day. I can never assume a foundational base of fundamental knowledge or that he will have learned.

Examples:

-I have to tell DH to pick up dirty diapers off the floor and put them in the garbage. Every single time.
-I have to tell DH, every single night, to please put his dishes in the dishwasher and then start it. If I don’t specifically mention that he needs to finish loading the dishes in, and THEN start it, he will just go start it half full and leave a bunch of dirty dishes on the counter for the morning.
-I have to tell DH to get the kids ready for the day (we trade of days for getting them ready). He has to be told, every time, what that means. I can’t just say “get the kids ready please”. It has to be “can you change them out of their jammies?” And then “can you put shoes on them?” And so on and so forth.

I’m exhausted and bitter.

New poster here. Is there anyway your DH can have the natural consequence of his actions? So for dishes, can that be his chore as well as paying the water bill? This way if he likes to run the dish washer half full he can not have the cup or plate when he needs one or when he finds himself needing to run it twice and paying the higher water bill he might rethink if he wants to put only half in the night run. With getting the kids ready, I would say nothing. Let him be embarrassed and have to come back home if he forgot something. If he is naturally forgetful, he has to decide how he wants to keep himself on track. I keep reminders, calendars and notes for various things, but that’s because I am motivated not to fail and I have a terrible memory.

The diaper thing, arghh, I cannot. That’s one where I don’t think you can let him deal with the consequences because it impacts everyone. Overall though, I remind myself if all these men are able to pull it together enough to hold down a job, they honestly can figure out how to do basic household tasks. With google and YouTube there is no reason ...

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP you sound ridiculous. You can’t make a gown man do anything. So he brings back the wrong item from a store. You tell him to go back, he says no. What are you going to do? Have a tantrum? Threaten divorce over him getting green grapes instead of red grapes?

You sound ridiculous. What husband doesn’t want to bring the right things back? He should want to be good enough for you. And vice versa.

You don’t have to make him go back the first time. Gently point out what he forgot and remind him to get it the next time. But if it continues to happen, that indicates a serious lack of respect. Then you should make an issue of it.

Again, you cannot MAKE a gown man go back to the store, re-clean the bathroom, or whatever your problem is. What do you mean you should “make an issue of it?” Does that mean act like a huge bitch until he gives in? Give him the silent treatment? What?

He isn’t a child. You cannot train him or make him do things you way-“or else.” Women find themselves in these circumstances because they have a choice of either accepting whatever faults their husband has or divorcing him. Accepting is sometimes the easier/better choice.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I really can’t control or change my husband.

I do what the OP suggests and it works but the feedback never gets embedded into his brain so we have to have the same conversation over and over again for years. It wears me down. It’s like every single day is a brand new day. I can never assume a foundational base of fundamental knowledge or that he will have learned.

Examples:

-I have to tell DH to pick up dirty diapers off the floor and put them in the garbage. Every single time.
-I have to tell DH, every single night, to please put his dishes in the dishwasher and then start it. If I don’t specifically mention that he needs to finish loading the dishes in, and THEN start it, he will just go start it half full and leave a bunch of dirty dishes on the counter for the morning.
-I have to tell DH to get the kids ready for the day (we trade of days for getting them ready). He has to be told, every time, what that means. I can’t just say “get the kids ready please”. It has to be “can you change them out of their jammies?” And then “can you put shoes on them?” And so on and so forth.

I’m exhausted and bitter.

I would say to him, “it concerns me that you need me to remind you to pick the dirty diapers off the floor every single day. Do you need this type of hand holding at work? No? Then why can’t you remember basic things at home?”

I wouldn’t be nasty but calm and genuine. Personally I suspect he is gas lighting you about not being able to remember but if he isn’t, that would suggest some pretty serious cognitive impairment. I mean that truthfully. I might actually say that to him so the embarrassment gets him off his ass.

I’m the pp. I’ve tried. There is no conversation. He shuts down completely when I bring it up. He cannot account for it or give me any kind of explanation. He just says he will do better and then doesn’t. Basically he just tries to say anything to shut me up and make me go away so the conversation can end as quickly as possible. Silence is his other go to.

My husband is very intelligent and does well at work but That’s it. That’s all he can really handle. We shouldn’t have had 2 kids, or he should have married someone different from me, someone without a career who would be content doing all the housework.

Oof, PP! I feel you on this. My husband is very kind and is willing to pitch in as long as given instructions, but I feel like he is just sort of incapable of doing as much as me on a regular basis. He feels like he deserves a break after work or on the weekends where he can just put his feet up. Which... OK, but we have kids and a household and full-time jobs. If we both took as much of a break as he seems to need, we would be living in squalor and our children would be unfed. So... he gets irritated when I ask him to get off the couch and do a chore. But yet -- this is all still stuff that needs to get done. But then again, he would be 100% OK with never cleaning anything and ordering takeout every day of the week.

I would point out that you’ve been working all week too, that you deserve a break as well, but there are the kids who still need their parents and all the things around the house that still need doing. I would point out that there is only the two of you to get these things done so if he is laying on the couch relaxing, it all falls on you. I would ask him seriously, why does he think he deserves a break but not you?

I think these things actually need to be said to some of these men and the conversations need to happen. Calmly, rationally, no emotion.

[Anonymous]

As usual, 90% of the posts in this thread are internalized misogyny.

The one that offends me most is the idea that any woman who struggles with allocating household duties and childcare with her spouse has somehow failed by either:

1) Being too dumb to marry a "good" husband
2) Being too obtuse to realize her husband sucks more than other husbands
3) Being too lazy to train her "bad" husband
4) Being too incompetent to just do it herself
5) Being too high-strung to just accept less than perfect
6) Being too poor to just hire it out

Imagine what the world would be like if, instead of constantly trying to prove that we alone figured out how to solve gender inequality in our specific marriage by just being smarter or prettier or more organized than all the other lesser women. Imagine if instead we supported each other. Imagine if every time some man said "Whatever, you're never happy anyway so why should I try", all the women backed that man's wife up and said "No, dumbass, you need to try harder."

But no, let's just keep doing this instead. It's working out GREAT.

Great post! And great synopsis too. I think I'm going to save that list just to I can cut-and-paste it at the beginning of these types of threads (sarcastically), thereby hopefully preempting all the anti-feminists from swooping in to blame and one-up the beleaguered OP... and perhaps then we can actually proceed to a more supportive and constructive discussion.