Huge changes to TJ admissions test beginning next year

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Kids at TJ cheat because, if they don't, they'll fall behind the kids who do. And if they get caught there are essentially no consequences - they can stay at TJ and counselors aren't allowed to tell colleges.

My DC, who has done very well at TJ without cheating, was shocked by the stories that were told at the assembly a few months ago. There are people (companies?) which have file cabinets of old TJ tests/problem sets, etc - and, yes, they seem to be shared among kids of the same ethnicity. He had absolutely no idea that was going on, and he came home very angry and upset. He was earning his grades while it seems half the school is cheating to get them.

I'm hopeful that the new principal will stress ethics more than Dr. Glazer, whose main concern is promoting the school, and by extension, himself.

"There are people (companies?) which have file cabinets of old TJ tests/problem sets, etc - " - The whole test prep industry is based on this (old questions as a basis for prep). It's up to the teachers to change them up as often as possible. No way around it. No point getting upset that one group of kids have it. I would not call that cheating. Cheating is copying the answers from another person. If the teachers are too lazy to change questions...

Bottom line, no consequences, no change.

Stop blaming the teachers when kids cheat. Many subjects do not lend themselves to making new tests every year. It is cheating to get old test questions that a teacher hasn't given permission to look at. Looking at other people's tests is not the only way to cheat and if that is what you are teaching your kids, you are doing them a huge disservice.

The school has to be able to enforce consequences that the parents back up, no making excuses for kids. If kids don't understand what constitutes cheating, they need to be taught- and maybe some of the parents need to be taught, also.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A neighbor whose child graduated from TJ about ten years ago told me that a previous principal was "pushed out" for enforcing consequences for a group of kids who were cheating. At a meeting, she didn't identify the kids but apparently mentioned their ethnic background in passing and ended up retiring early. So, I wonder if that is a reason that the administration hasn't reacted strongly to cheating.

I found these articles that give more background about it:

https://www.washingtonian.com/2006/09/01/thomas-jefferson-high-school-interview-with-principal-elizabeth-lodal/

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/2006/05/03/va-principal-issues-apology-for-remarks-span-classbankheadlinking-ethnicity-and-cheating-was-wrong-fairfax-leader-saysspan/01cfcf99-d02f-4c11-b68e-e4997cf6d972/?utm_term=.d6ab75351222

Clearly, she grew up in another era where a privileged group had it all, and couldn't accept the improvements made by smart minorities, so she tried to lump everyone together for the mistakes done by a few.

You completely missed the point here. That is not what she did, she referred to specific students who had cheated and her remarks were taken out of context by some parents. Read the articles again.

It's possible teachers and admins at TJ don't get enough support from parents to end cheating. There's someone on this thread who is trying to blame the teachers for kids cheating. SMH

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A neighbor whose child graduated from TJ about ten years ago told me that a previous principal was "pushed out" for enforcing consequences for a group of kids who were cheating. At a meeting, she didn't identify the kids but apparently mentioned their ethnic background in passing and ended up retiring early. So, I wonder if that is a reason that the administration hasn't reacted strongly to cheating.

I found these articles that give more background about it:

https://www.washingtonian.com/2006/09/01/thomas-jefferson-high-school-interview-with-principal-elizabeth-lodal/

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/2006/05/03/va-principal-issues-apology-for-remarks-span-classbankheadlinking-ethnicity-and-cheating-was-wrong-fairfax-leader-saysspan/01cfcf99-d02f-4c11-b68e-e4997cf6d972/?utm_term=.d6ab75351222

Clearly, she grew up in another era where a privileged group had it all, and couldn't accept the improvements made by smart minorities, so she tried to lump everyone together for the mistakes done by a few.

You completely missed the point here. That is not what she did, she referred to specific students who had cheated and her remarks were taken out of context by some parents. Read the articles again.

It's possible teachers and admins at TJ don't get enough support from parents to end cheating. There's someone on this thread who is trying to blame the teachers for kids cheating. SMH

Collecting old test papers is not cheating. It is just a collection of sample questions for training purposes, if the same questions repeat then that's not the kids fault. Happens all the time, in every kind of tests everywhere. The same people who are crying now should know their kids have also been exposed to some old questions somewhere along the way and that is why they were able to answer. Copying the answers are cheating, questions should be open in fact. The current method of testing should change, schools are for learning and enhancing knowledge, not for testing with some hard questions no one ever saw before.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Kids at TJ cheat because, if they don't, they'll fall behind the kids who do. And if they get caught there are essentially no consequences - they can stay at TJ and counselors aren't allowed to tell colleges.

My DC, who has done very well at TJ without cheating, was shocked by the stories that were told at the assembly a few months ago. There are people (companies?) which have file cabinets of old TJ tests/problem sets, etc - and, yes, they seem to be shared among kids of the same ethnicity. He had absolutely no idea that was going on, and he came home very angry and upset. He was earning his grades while it seems half the school is cheating to get them.

I'm hopeful that the new principal will stress ethics more than Dr. Glazer, whose main concern is promoting the school, and by extension, himself.

"There are people (companies?) which have file cabinets of old TJ tests/problem sets, etc - " - The whole test prep industry is based on this (old questions as a basis for prep). It's up to the teachers to change them up as often as possible. No way around it. No point getting upset that one group of kids have it. I would not call that cheating. Cheating is copying the answers from another person. If the teachers are too lazy to change questions...

Bottom line, no consequences, no change.

Stop blaming the teachers when kids cheat. Many subjects do not lend themselves to making new tests every year. It is cheating to get old test questions that a teacher hasn't given permission to look at. Looking at other people's tests is not the only way to cheat and if that is what you are teaching your kids, you are doing them a huge disservice.

The school has to be able to enforce consequences that the parents back up, no making excuses for kids. If kids don't understand what constitutes cheating, they need to be taught- and maybe some of the parents need to be taught, also.

Says who? Is this spelled out in the code of conduct (or whatever they have at TJ)? What are the consequences?

Listen.. No one wants to raise children who cheat. If some do they are idiots and they should be made to pay. If you don't make them pay, why would others follow the rules?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Kids at TJ cheat because, if they don't, they'll fall behind the kids who do. And if they get caught there are essentially no consequences - they can stay at TJ and counselors aren't allowed to tell colleges.

My DC, who has done very well at TJ without cheating, was shocked by the stories that were told at the assembly a few months ago. There are people (companies?) which have file cabinets of old TJ tests/problem sets, etc - and, yes, they seem to be shared among kids of the same ethnicity. He had absolutely no idea that was going on, and he came home very angry and upset. He was earning his grades while it seems half the school is cheating to get them.

I'm hopeful that the new principal will stress ethics more than Dr. Glazer, whose main concern is promoting the school, and by extension, himself.

"There are people (companies?) which have file cabinets of old TJ tests/problem sets, etc - " - The whole test prep industry is based on this (old questions as a basis for prep). It's up to the teachers to change them up as often as possible. No way around it. No point getting upset that one group of kids have it. I would not call that cheating. Cheating is copying the answers from another person. If the teachers are too lazy to change questions...

Bottom line, no consequences, no change.

Stop blaming the teachers when kids cheat. Many subjects do not lend themselves to making new tests every year. It is cheating to get old test questions that a teacher hasn't given permission to look at. Looking at other people's tests is not the only way to cheat and if that is what you are teaching your kids, you are doing them a huge disservice.

The school has to be able to enforce consequences that the parents back up, no making excuses for kids. If kids don't understand what constitutes cheating, they need to be taught- and maybe some of the parents need to be taught, also.

Says who? Is this spelled out in the code of conduct (or whatever they have at TJ)? What are the consequences?

Listen.. No one wants to raise children who cheat. If some do they are idiots and they should be made to pay. If you don't make them pay, why would others follow the rules?

I have no idea if it is spelled out, but I was taught this in high school and college, even though I don't believe it was in writing anywhere. I heard rumors in college that some campus groups had files of old tests and we were told by the school that it would be considered cheating if we were to use such "resources." I had a few professors and teachers who gave out old tests to study from and it was clear that those situations were different from getting old tests from other students.

I'm surprised any adult needs to be told this.

[Anonymous]

I have no idea if it is spelled out, but I was taught this in high school and college, even though I don't believe it was in writing anywhere. I heard rumors in college that some campus groups had files of old tests and we were told by the school that it would be considered cheating if we were to use such "resources." I had a few professors and teachers who gave out old tests to study from and it was clear that those situations were different from getting old tests from other students.

I'm surprised any adult needs to be told this.



+1

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Kids at TJ cheat because, if they don't, they'll fall behind the kids who do. And if they get caught there are essentially no consequences - they can stay at TJ and counselors aren't allowed to tell colleges.

My DC, who has done very well at TJ without cheating, was shocked by the stories that were told at the assembly a few months ago. There are people (companies?) which have file cabinets of old TJ tests/problem sets, etc - and, yes, they seem to be shared among kids of the same ethnicity. He had absolutely no idea that was going on, and he came home very angry and upset. He was earning his grades while it seems half the school is cheating to get them.

I'm hopeful that the new principal will stress ethics more than Dr. Glazer, whose main concern is promoting the school, and by extension, himself.

"There are people (companies?) which have file cabinets of old TJ tests/problem sets, etc - " - The whole test prep industry is based on this (old questions as a basis for prep). It's up to the teachers to change them up as often as possible. No way around it. No point getting upset that one group of kids have it. I would not call that cheating. Cheating is copying the answers from another person. If the teachers are too lazy to change questions...

Bottom line, no consequences, no change.

Stop blaming the teachers when kids cheat. Many subjects do not lend themselves to making new tests every year. It is cheating to get old test questions that a teacher hasn't given permission to look at. Looking at other people's tests is not the only way to cheat and if that is what you are teaching your kids, you are doing them a huge disservice.

The school has to be able to enforce consequences that the parents back up, no making excuses for kids. If kids don't understand what constitutes cheating, they need to be taught- and maybe some of the parents need to be taught, also.

Says who? Is this spelled out in the code of conduct (or whatever they have at TJ)? What are the consequences?

Listen.. No one wants to raise children who cheat. If some do they are idiots and they should be made to pay. If you don't make them pay, why would others follow the rules?

I have no idea if it is spelled out, but I was taught this in high school and college, even though I don't believe it was in writing anywhere. I heard rumors in college that some campus groups had files of old tests and we were told by the school that it would be considered cheating if we were to use such "resources." I had a few professors and teachers who gave out old tests to study from and it was clear that those situations were different from getting old tests from other students.

I'm surprised any adult needs to be told this.

So you had an idea for what constitutes appropriate behavior in your head, spent your life doing it and are now upset that others aren't following your ideas/values !?!?. It's like going to Church all your life, and finding out on your deathbed that God doesn't exist

Even in your example, it was considered "cheating" only if a professor chose to state it was so. There was no university-wide policy on that since some professors were handing out past tests. That seems quite arbitrary if you ask me. Why not follow that rule now as well? Why not have the teachers come out and say "Don't review my old tests. If you do, and I find out, I will consider that to be cheating and I will be really disappointed". Has any of them done that?

If this is what this thread considers cheating and has been gnashing their teeth about, they all need to get a life.

To summarize - Looking at old tests is NOT CHEATING. It's just one aspect of preparation. Copying off another person's work IS CHEATING. End of story.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Kids at TJ cheat because, if they don't, they'll fall behind the kids who do. And if they get caught there are essentially no consequences - they can stay at TJ and counselors aren't allowed to tell colleges.

My DC, who has done very well at TJ without cheating, was shocked by the stories that were told at the assembly a few months ago. There are people (companies?) which have file cabinets of old TJ tests/problem sets, etc - and, yes, they seem to be shared among kids of the same ethnicity. He had absolutely no idea that was going on, and he came home very angry and upset. He was earning his grades while it seems half the school is cheating to get them.

I'm hopeful that the new principal will stress ethics more than Dr. Glazer, whose main concern is promoting the school, and by extension, himself.

"There are people (companies?) which have file cabinets of old TJ tests/problem sets, etc - " - The whole test prep industry is based on this (old questions as a basis for prep). It's up to the teachers to change them up as often as possible. No way around it. No point getting upset that one group of kids have it. I would not call that cheating. Cheating is copying the answers from another person. If the teachers are too lazy to change questions...

Bottom line, no consequences, no change.

Stop blaming the teachers when kids cheat. Many subjects do not lend themselves to making new tests every year. It is cheating to get old test questions that a teacher hasn't given permission to look at. Looking at other people's tests is not the only way to cheat and if that is what you are teaching your kids, you are doing them a huge disservice.

The school has to be able to enforce consequences that the parents back up, no making excuses for kids. If kids don't understand what constitutes cheating, they need to be taught- and maybe some of the parents need to be taught, also.

Says who? Is this spelled out in the code of conduct (or whatever they have at TJ)? What are the consequences?

Listen.. No one wants to raise children who cheat. If some do they are idiots and they should be made to pay. If you don't make them pay, why would others follow the rules?

I have no idea if it is spelled out, but I was taught this in high school and college, even though I don't believe it was in writing anywhere. I heard rumors in college that some campus groups had files of old tests and we were told by the school that it would be considered cheating if we were to use such "resources." I had a few professors and teachers who gave out old tests to study from and it was clear that those situations were different from getting old tests from other students.

I'm surprised any adult needs to be told this.

So you had an idea for what constitutes appropriate behavior in your head, spent your life doing it and are now upset that others aren't following your ideas/values !?!?. It's like going to Church all your life, and finding out on your deathbed that God doesn't exist

Even in your example, it was considered "cheating" only if a professor chose to state it was so. There was no university-wide policy on that since some professors were handing out past tests. That seems quite arbitrary if you ask me. Why not follow that rule now as well? Why not have the teachers come out and say "Don't review my old tests. If you do, and I find out, I will consider that to be cheating and I will be really disappointed". Has any of them done that?

If this is what this thread considers cheating and has been gnashing their teeth about, they all need to get a life.

To summarize - Looking at old tests is NOT CHEATING. It's just one aspect of preparation. Copying off another person's work IS CHEATING. End of story.

Are you a parent of a kid at TJ? If so, are you a parent who thinks the school is making too big of a deal about cheating?

It was always made clear to me, at every school I attended, that studying old tests that had been collected without the permission of the instructor was considered cheating. It is not the least bit arbitrary.

Copying the work of another is not the only way to cheat. There are lots of other ways. And they are all wrong because they are... cheating. And cheating is wrong.

This is not rocket science and an adult should not be looking for ways to have as narrow a definition of cheating as possible.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am a tax payer whose tax monies are being spent on this public schoool, and I believe it should not so test performance oriented, instead it should have more diverse minorities from AA and Latino kids who should be given opportunity to learn STEM topics. Some of these kids did not get the opportunity because of years of social injustice and inequalities, so they may not be the STEM brilliant students that a PP stated, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't have opportunity.

Agree. I wish some of the parents who are so full of chagrin on these boards, get moving and get on the school board or some such thing to advocate change. I'll vote for them.

you agreed with yourself?

What? I just posted the previous 3-4 messages. I'm not the one crying from the rooftops about cheating being a problem. My kid is just entering TJ and reading all this crap, I wish he had decided to stay at base.

Don't worry, I am the PP who you quoted as agree. There are some losers on here who just cannot acccept change happenning around them, much like what is happenning around the country too, they reminisce about an era bygone and wish things remained the same. Make TJ great again: LOL

Yeah, because sticking a bunch of kids already underpreforming in the regular classes at their schools into a super rigorous curriculum that they will never keep up with will be SO GREAT FOR THEM. And likewise great for all the kids who do preform well - it'll be great for them too, get dragged back by a bunch of underpreforming kids (but who cares about the smart kids right?)

[Anonymous]

Some of the responses here are racist and it's not okay. If you singled out any particular race or ethnic group in your post I think you should take some time to seriously consider what racism is and whether it might apply to you and consider ways to work on that. I am trying to say this nicely. If you're immediate reaction to this message is - what I said is not racist because it's true! I kindly suggest you should really look into it.

I don't think there's any test you can't prep for, but if they find one and can use it here - that would be great. I think middle school is too young to get into the test prep rat race. I would like to at least wait until it's inevitable for the SATs. As it currently stands I'm not planning to consider TJ for my children. I'm not into test prep or all the summer school. I think stem is good and have one kid who is really into math but if they want to be able to do band and a foreign language, I think that well roundedness is great and helpful too. So I guess we're not their target audience and I'm ok with that.

[Anonymous]

*your ugh!!! ?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:PP here, I must add though, there are always exceptions. For instance, there are kids who went to prep centers and got in with bare minimum required to get in because the prep centers helped them improve. These are the kids who struggle at TJ and needing extra tutoring and course work. To that, I say, parents should know their kids and whether they are natural material for TJ / AAP or not. But some parents push it anyway. They will soon figure out what a mistake it was.

+1

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They should just make it in Chinese.

The largest portion of Asian kids at TJ are Indian. But congrats on the alt facts.

Plus, this seems designed to make it harder for the Asian test prep contingent, no?

they need to shut TJ. its benefits are only to a few and has become a huge cost. long overdue to stop the entire out of control TJ process.

Only thing out of control is the emotional IQ of people like you who cannot accept change. What kind of phobia shall we call it?

here is the thread you meant to be posting on - http://www.dcurbanmom.com/jforum/posts/list/639015.page

TJ has become an embarrassment. From hundreds of postings like above to the thousands of Indians that groom their kids from pre-kindergarten onward have warped the system. TJ should be closed and the money redistributed to local high schools. Let these crazy parents have their children go to private school, just like they would have if they lived in their own homeland.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They should just make it in Chinese.

The largest portion of Asian kids at TJ are Indian. But congrats on the alt facts.

Plus, this seems designed to make it harder for the Asian test prep contingent, no?

they need to shut TJ. its benefits are only to a few and has become a huge cost. long overdue to stop the entire out of control TJ process.

Only thing out of control is the emotional IQ of people like you who cannot accept change. What kind of phobia shall we call it?

here is the thread you meant to be posting on - http://www.dcurbanmom.com/jforum/posts/list/639015.page

TJ has become an embarrassment. From hundreds of postings like above to the thousands of Indians that groom their kids from pre-kindergarten onward have warped the system. TJ should be closed and the money redistributed to local high schools. Let these crazy parents have their children go to private school, just like they would have if they lived in their own homeland.

Get your head out of the dark place wherre it is now, and look at the mirror closely, your racially tinged posts are an embarrssment. You can't compete, so you want to change the rules. Guess what, the world is changing and those who cannot adapt will beccome extinct. TJ or not, the ethnic group that you are directing your bigotry will get good scores in schools, will go to top universities, and become successful engineers, doctors, lawyers, CEO's, politicians, so on... stop hating and your life might become more pleasant.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They should just make it in Chinese.

The largest portion of Asian kids at TJ are Indian. But congrats on the alt facts.

Plus, this seems designed to make it harder for the Asian test prep contingent, no?

they need to shut TJ. its benefits are only to a few and has become a huge cost. long overdue to stop the entire out of control TJ process.

Only thing out of control is the emotional IQ of people like you who cannot accept change. What kind of phobia shall we call it?

here is the thread you meant to be posting on - http://www.dcurbanmom.com/jforum/posts/list/639015.page

TJ has become an embarrassment. From hundreds of postings like above to the thousands of Indians that groom their kids from pre-kindergarten onward have warped the system. TJ should be closed and the money redistributed to local high schools. Let these crazy parents have their children go to private school, just like they would have if they lived in their own homeland.

Ha ha ha!

(1) Additional education - summer school, extended school (i.e. outside of school classes, etc) are GOOD for academic achievement. Read links below and educate yourself. Your laziness is not an excuse. Yes, these links only talk about summer school. Nothing wrong with extending that concept to after school.

http://www.wallacefoundation.org/knowledge-center/Documents/Making-Summer-Count-How-Summer-Programs-Can-Boost-Childrens-Learning.pdf
http://scholarworks.gvsu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1737&context=theses

(2) Close TJ & redistribute funds - Ain't gonna happen. TJ is the best Public high school in the country. The county and the state are not going to this deathwish. They just spent a crap-ton of money on the school, for god's sake!

(3) Indians, go to private school - Why? We pay the same taxes you do and more (we pay SSN that our parents don't get to enjoy unlike yours, for example). If TJ goes away, the high performers at the base schools will be the Indians. You can't avoid that reality. Here's a thought.. Why don't YOU send YOUR kids to Private school. They eill get "TJ-like" education and there's no competition (or far less) to get in.

(4) I know you didn't say this but some other idiot will - No, we aren't going back either. We'll do that after you do since you came here first.

Reading all the posts on this forum - There are two issues:
(1) TJ admission process - This needs to be fair, solve all the issues present in the current process (i.e. remove the advantage of prepping), accommodate minorities, etc. This needs to be solved.
(2) TJ cheating (as in copying of tests, homework and exams) - Implement consequences. Without this there will be no resolution.

It would be good to see threads focused on these two issues without race baiting and all the anti-prep nonsense.