Sister's husband has $0 in college fund for my nephews - tells me to "back off"

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

OT, but I have a question: Why do you think they are going to turn into their biological father? It sounds like their mom is a reliable presence in their lives, their step-father is gainfully employed and is dutifully supporting his children and step-children (if not providing for their future education), their aunt and uncle are thriving. It sounds like their father is the (extreme) outlier here. Why would they end up like him as opposed to one of the other more successful people in their lives? Why do you look at them and see their father? That's a mighty big millstone you've placed around their necks.

For the sake of transparency: My sister is ignorant and fairly lazy. She would love for them to have a better life than her, but isn't interested in learning how to make that happen - which research shows is a common trait amongst working class parents. As in, parents like her are pretty hands off, they let the school handle the education; talking to guidance counselor about courses, reading college preparation parenting books, signing kid up for SAT prep, securing a math tutor are all foreign concepts. BIL isn't lazy, but he's also ignorant and should be seeing a shrink. Me and my husband helping is seen as an attack on his man of the house "power" - the guy is unstable. It would be like me and my husband telling my BIL, who's an MD, to stop offering health advice if he noticed something, you know.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

OT, but I have a question: Why do you think they are going to turn into their biological father? It sounds like their mom is a reliable presence in their lives, their step-father is gainfully employed and is dutifully supporting his children and step-children (if not providing for their future education), their aunt and uncle are thriving. It sounds like their father is the (extreme) outlier here. Why would they end up like him as opposed to one of the other more successful people in their lives? Why do you look at them and see their father? That's a mighty big millstone you've placed around their necks.

For the sake of transparency: My sister is ignorant and fairly lazy. She would love for them to have a better life than her, but isn't interested in learning how to make that happen - which research shows is a common trait amongst working class parents. As in, parents like her are pretty hands off, they let the school handle the education; talking to guidance counselor about courses, reading college preparation parenting books, signing kid up for SAT prep, securing a math tutor are all foreign concepts. BIL isn't lazy, but he's also ignorant and should be seeing a shrink. Me and my husband helping is seen as an attack on his man of the house "power" - the guy is unstable. It would be like me and my husband telling my BIL, who's an MD, to stop offering health advice if he noticed something, you know.

OP, your disdain for your sister and your BIL comes through loud and clear, and that's what people are reacting to. It seems to be a much stronger driver of your behaviour here than a true love and concern for your nephews. That's what people are sensing, whether it is true or not.

And, um, your BIL is an MD?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
And, um, your BIL is an MD?

My *husband's* brother is an MD.
My sister and her husband barely graduated from high school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:BIL makes decent money without going to college, but your nephews are doomed to be deadbeats?

Your title complains that BIL doesn't have money for the nephews college - why are you not complaining about your sister or their dad (the two adults biologically related and primarily responsible for them).

I think you should be pissed more at your sister than your BIL. Still, there's nothing for you to do here. They don't want your help. It's unfortunate because you sound as if you are attempting to be kind, but they don't want your help.

BIL is a layoff away from being bankrupt. He has no leverage to get raises. He hates his job. The 1990s =/= 2017-2020

Yes, my sister certainly knows how to pick 'em. FYI, when it comes to FAFSA and college aid, *all* parents inc. step-parents are responsible.

I hate to break it to you, but a lot of upper middle class people are a layoff away from being bankrupt. You are so in love with "the research." The research shows that most people across all classes are over-leveraged and don't have enough savings. What allows most upper middle class people to live their lives is their income.

You talk as if your sister and BIL are trailer park trash. They have a HHI that is pretty high -- even for the regional average -- on one income. That's not bad.

Your tone is horrible. For all of your education and class, you seem to have horrible people skills. You don't make people feel like losers when you want them to take your advice. That puts them on the defensive. Also, most people don't like to feel like they're accepting charity from inlaws. Do you really not understand that?

Also, you haven't mentioned anything about your nephews. Have they expressed an interest in college? Have they gone to the guidance counselor? The internet? There are SAT and college resources online. You don't say anything about that except that you think they will turn into deadbeats, which signals to me that neither one of them are interested in college. If that is the case, then maybe a trade school or a vocational school is a better option.

I actually think the high dropout rate in college these days isn't because we aren't doing enough to prepare kids. I think that there are a lot of kids for whom a traditional 4-year college isn't appropriate. I wish we wouldn't make trades seem like a subpar career choice.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
Also, you haven't mentioned anything about your nephews. Have they expressed an interest in college? Have they gone to the guidance counselor? The internet? There are SAT and college resources online. You don't say anything about that except that you think they will turn into deadbeats, which signals to me that neither one of them are interested in college. If that is the case, then maybe a trade school or a vocational school is a better option.

Yes, they're interested. But it's a case of the blind leading the blind. Ignorant people don't know what they don't know. I'm not their mother or I'd have them involved in things that expose them to potential careers, colleges, etc. Their parents don't see the point of any of that - because their parents have never left town, never experienced college, don't really have any college-educated white collar friends. Small-mindedness consumes the family; the kids may want college, but they're pretty oblivious to the path. And if they don't go, it'll be oh well...our parents didn't go, so what's the big deal, we never had a chance, we never had the money, etc. This is why it's so hard for working class kids to escape. Once they're 18 it's too late make serious impact. Achievement gap is real, and it gets deeper and deeper to the point the nephews become forever behind and its insurmountable.

[Anonymous]

Look, DCUM being what it is, pretty much everyone on this site is MC/UMC. We all know the importance of education, and most of us are doing pretty well for ourselves, or else we wouldn't be free to screw around on the internet during work hours.

The thing is, many of us also are from less privileged backgrounds, and the way that OP is using "working class" as as a slur is bound to rub some folks the wrong way.

I'm the PP whose aunt and uncle took a thoughtful and sensitive approach to nurturing my potential. I'll be forever grateful to them for that, but you know what they never did? They never made me feel like my parents were inferior to them just because my parents were working class.

Working class people work. That's what they do. They work hard, often physical, jobs. Both of my parents worked twice as hard as I do, longer hours, for a lot less money. While I sit at a desk all day, answer emails, make decisions, and use my brain, my mother continues to live with the effects of a work-related injury but she worked all the way to retirement and beyond.

So OP, you need to take a seat and look at how you are deploying language. When I think about "working class values" I think about my parents and what they gave up for my siblings and I.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Look, DCUM being what it is, pretty much everyone on this site is MC/UMC. We all know the importance of education, and most of us are doing pretty well for ourselves, or else we wouldn't be free to screw around on the internet during work hours.

The thing is, many of us also are from less privileged backgrounds, and the way that OP is using "working class" as as a slur is bound to rub some folks the wrong way.

I'm the PP whose aunt and uncle took a thoughtful and sensitive approach to nurturing my potential. I'll be forever grateful to them for that, but you know what they never did? They never made me feel like my parents were inferior to them just because my parents were working class.

Working class people work. That's what they do. They work hard, often physical, jobs. Both of my parents worked twice as hard as I do, longer hours, for a lot less money. While I sit at a desk all day, answer emails, make decisions, and use my brain, my mother continues to live with the effects of a work-related injury but she worked all the way to retirement and beyond.

So OP, you need to take a seat and look at how you are deploying language. When I think about "working class values" I think about my parents and what they gave up for my siblings and I.

+ 1,000 My parents didn't go to high school, let alone college. I went to an Ivy League school for an engineering degree. No tutors or SAT prep. You are not coming across well at all to us, op, a bunch of internet strangers. I have to think it seems even worse to your sister and BIL.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:He has no obligation to pay for their college tuition. He is already putting a roof over their heads, clothes on their back, and food in their stomach. It is the deadbeat daddy's responsibility. MYOB because this man is already going way beyond the call of duty by raising some other dude's children. Give your sister's husband some credit. You don't know what type of financial sacrifices he has already made by raising your nephews.

OP, you crossed boundaries. You owe your brother in-law and sister an apology.

OP isn't asking BIL for further financial sacrifices - she's offering to help ...

[Anonymous]

Are you a troll?

[Anonymous]

If BIL is so bad, won't the nephews WANT to get out of the house? Won't the motivation to get off their step-father's couch be very strong? Will the step-father even allow them to stay on his couch once they are out of high school?

If the past is certain prologue, as OP seems to think it is, how to explain that sister's life turned out the way it did, while OP's life turned out so differently? Were they not raised by the same parents, in the same home?

I also need an answer to these questions:

How will nephews demonstrate to OP that they are "prepared" for college? It sounds like the boys must show some promise--maybe they have decent grades?--but somehow that isn't enough evidence for her.

Is OP unwilling to pay for college unless it is VT caliber? If a nephew gets into, say VCU, will OP help pay? Or is this "flushing" money down the drain?

If one of OP's own children showed less promise in high school--say had crappy grades and/or poor test scores--would she still finance higher education of some type? Or would she judge her own child to be a lost cause at age 18?

[Anonymous]

they are your sisters kids, right? What does SHE say? if she is ok with it then hell with what he says-( I'm Muslim so from a Mothers word is law culture regardless)- but in this situation they are her biological offspring and her word IS law. You are doing a wonderful thing by helping your nephews, some of the people on here have no family values at all. Ignore them-

have you spoken with your nephews, are they excited by the idea that they can go to college and have a different life or are they clueless/sattisfied with a working class life. It is getting increasingly difficult to live a middle class life without a college degree, the best they can hope for is to be working class and demographic trends point to working class=working poor. Who would want that for young people with their whole lives ahead of them? No amount of Trump speeches is going to bring those jobs or wages back- they are gone, as Steve Jobs famously pints out to Obama.

If Your nephews aren't really into this idea- be prepared will you be ok if they squander this opportunity and the $$ you are spending or will you or your own kids resent it?

You and your husband are good people.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:they are your sisters kids, right? What does SHE say? if she is ok with it then hell with what he says-( I'm Muslim so from a Mothers word is law culture regardless)- but in this situation they are her biological offspring and her word IS law. You are doing a wonderful thing by helping your nephews, some of the people on here have no family values at all. Ignore them-

have you spoken with your nephews, are they excited by the idea that they can go to college and have a different life or are they clueless/sattisfied with a working class life. It is getting increasingly difficult to live a middle class life without a college degree, the best they can hope for is to be working class and demographic trends point to working class=working poor. Who would want that for young people with their whole lives ahead of them? No amount of Trump speeches is going to bring those jobs or wages back- they are gone, as Steve Jobs famously pints out to Obama.

If Your nephews aren't really into this idea- be prepared will you be ok if they squander this opportunity and the $$ you are spending or will you or your own kids resent it?

You and your husband are good people.

Thank you for all of that, plus acknowledging how impossible it is to make a living w/o a credential. They are eager to get out of the house and out from the control of their step-father, but my husband and I aren't around them more than once or twice a month. It's crunch time for college prep and if the adults they live with don't buy into our college prep advice, it either won't happen period, or it will be squandered. For ex., say my sister put her foot down and agreed to accept SAT prep and math tutor. Ok... what's to say she or her husband will actually make the boys go? It's not a wishy-washy thing to prepare boys like them for college. For every anecdote of a working class kid who made it there are 99 who don't.

It's really tough to get through to kids when the parents don't see big dreams for their kids as realistic. And the husband might subconsciously not want them to become educated elitists, or rise above what he thinks is possible for him to afford for his children, etc.

[Anonymous]

Op, ignore most of the crazy posters here.
They have dated knowledge - 30 yrs ago you could not go to college and often do just fine. It is much much harder now.
Also, paying for college is much harder now as expenses are sky high. Don't give up on your nephews. Keep trying in subtle ways.
Maybe you can invite them on a trip with you. Take them to CA or NYC or somewhere international.

[Anonymous]

Op, I feel your pain. You can't fix stupid (your BIL). Have the boys over and talk to them about all this stuff, they are old enough to understand what they need to do to increase their college chances.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Op, ignore most of the crazy posters here.
They have dated knowledge - 30 yrs ago you could not go to college and often do just fine. It is much much harder now.
Also, paying for college is much harder now as expenses are sky high. Don't give up on your nephews. Keep trying in subtle ways.
Maybe you can invite them on a trip with you. Take them to CA or NYC or somewhere international.

Are we reading the same thread?

There are few on this post saying that it will be just fine if nephews don't go to college. There is no one that I can recall saying that paying for college is easy or that nephews don't need OP's assistance. In fact, many are encouraging OP to support her nephews as best she can without making things MORE difficult for her nephews by angering and alienating their stepfather.

OP herself appears to be saying she has already given up on her nephews, saying that they will fail without SAT prep and tutoring, while simultaneously acknowledging that they can't succeed without assistance. She seems to be saying, "They can't succeed without my help, but I won't help unless they succeed." It's a pickle alright.

OP still doesn't want to answer the question about whether or not VCU or JMU etc it is acceptable to her. I'm guessing that means no. She might pay for UVA or W&M or Tech, but anything else--not worth it. Better no degree at all than one from a "lesser" college, apparently.