Seeking opinions on an incident involving another family member disciplining my child

[Anonymous]

I would have no problem with someone physically removing my kid if she were standing on the arm of a chair. Sure, he could have asked me to do it, but according to the OP, she was busy with the other kid and didn't see it. Maybe it looked like the kid was about to fall, and BIL didn't have a lot of time to react.

The BIL was wrong to yell and lose his temper, but OP comes across as oversensitive and dramatic. After the initial incident, none of the adults in this situation come out looking good.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Surprised at some of the responses here. Do your 4 year olds really not climb on the furniture? What sort of robot children are you raising?

Mine does. And I tell him not to and make him get down. Particuarly at someone else's house. I am not raising an animal.

+1 I think the other PP must belong to the Chevy Chase country club where apparently the members' kids do this all the time.

OP, maybe your BIL decided to take matters into his own hands because he saw you were busy with your other kid, as you stated, and he feels your kids are part of his family so he doesn't see it as a big deal to discipline them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I do allow my kids to climb on the furniture. Of course if they are in danger of falling off/hurting themselves I don't allow it. But if they're playing around, getting boisterous it's all fine. These are just crappy ikea couches and it's no big deal to me. You're only young once!

Fine. But you also need to teach them not to climb on other people's furniture.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP you both sound like a couple freeloaders. Stay in a home where you know ahead of time difference in parenting, therefore they are not going to tolerate your snowflakes doing things their kids know not to do.

You run from the room instead of backing up the uncle

Daddy runs from the room after he is "yelled" at.

You both sound like children who need to grow up, not adults you should be

Simple: kids do not belong jumping on others furniture. if you allow it at home, thats great but they should be taught it doesnt happen in others homes. I will never forget the interview I had for childcare where the mom allowed all 3 of her kids to WALK, jump on and crawl all over my couch throughout the interview. I had to pick my jaw up from the ground and be thankful she found relatives who were going to watch those kids. no way, no how am I going to allow children to act like animals climbing all over the furniture. Ridiculous.

I suggest you not go and stay there again. If you cant handle your own family telling your child to stop doing something they dont allow, you have no business staying in their home.

You are a childcare provider? O. M. G.

LOL why shocked? Yes, I, a childcare provider, answered on this post. And No, in all my years of providing childcare have I allowed a child to climb all over the couch, sit or stand on the armrest or climb the back side of the couch. I must say, i had parents who didnt allow their children to act like animals climbing all over the furniture either, so there really wasnt an issue. If I do not allow my own kids to do this, why would I allow someone elses?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I assume that everyone here responding would insist that their children use their words when confronting a peer, so why is it that so many of you are just fine with the BIL angrily grabbing at a four year old girl's legs to the point that she is in tears? He didn't say, "please don't stand on the couch" or "get off the couch" or even "get off the damn couch." He said "No, no!" and then grabbed her. Do all your kids hop to attention the instant you say "no!" and do exactly what you're asking them to read your mind about? Or are they lost in their own thoughts doing their own thing and it takes them a second to process? I'm guessing the latter. That's normal four YO behavior. Even when doing something that upon reflection they should know not to do.

If he had unemotionally picked her up and set her down, that's no problem. But getting worked up about a four year old on the arm of your sofa and then grabbing at her when she's clearly scared of you and trying to get away is completely unacceptable.

The fact that he CAME AND APOLOGIZED should tell everyone what they need to know about this interaction. He was clearly in the wrong or he wouldn't have done so.

This man is clearly not in control of his temper. I feel sorry for his kids.

I would bet he apologized because they were packing up to leave. Drama all around.

If you read the OP it sounds like he didn't even know they were packing up. Just that they had retreated to the guest room because he had reduced two children to tears and screamed in his BIL's face.

OP here. That's right; he came right up to the room a few moments later and apologized. So it wasn't at my SIL's prompting (she wasn't home). And no, he didn't know we were packing; just that we had gone to the room. And we really weren't packing--I shouldn't have said that earlier. We were just discussing packing up and leaving. Although packing up would have meant just putting the bags in the car, because basically everything was still in the bags.

Anyway, I guess I did come here because I was hoping for support, for validation that what my BIL did was wrong. I get it that many of you don't seem to agree.

OP, I'm sorry. These people are nuts. I posted a minute ago about my father and I totally understand how this whole incident could have gone down. This post has zero to do with whether she was doing something she shouldn't because it really doesn't even have that much to do with the fact that he tried discipline your kid. Correcting someone else's child who is misbehaving in your home is fine. Your BIL just has a temper and he lashed out in a totally inappropriate way. But his apology indicates that he knows it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

I think this says everything about the people responding that she had it coming. You're picturing yourself as the BIL and thinking, "well, she must be a little brat for him to have gotten so angry." I grew up with a father with a very short fuse. If you saw him in action, you would think that often his reactions to normal inconveniences were completely out of proportion and at times inappropriate. Please don't assume that every parent's reaction is going to be like yours. This sounds like OP encountered another parent who didn't just have a different parenting style, but who is just not in control of his emotions when dealing with a small child. OP, I think you did the right thing to accept his apology and stay and I might even stay again. But you need to make clear with him and your sister that, while you're fine with them correcting your children when they are misbehaving, you are not fine with them getting physical with them when they are angry.

Blame-the-victim type stuff. Like, 'she must have been out late' or 'she must have been dressed too sexily'

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP here again. To clarify about the leg-grabbing--I don't think that he removed her from the couch--I think she got herself down onto the seat part when she saw him moving toward her. She scrambled down, and he grabbed at her as she was scrambling down. By the time I turned around, she was on the seat part face-up with her legs facing him, and he was leaning over the arm rest trying to grab at her legs.

OP, how do you know how it all went down if you had your back to them? You are making assumptions based on your bias.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I am seriously amazed by the holier than thou posters who claim a 0 tolerance policy for kids on couches. That is nuts. My kids are allowed on the furniture and I'm not stupid enough to think that makes them rude and undisciplined.

My two boys are allowed to stand on the furniture in our house because it is old and we live in a condo without a backyard. There is no way I would allow them to stand on the armrest of a couch in someone else's house. I have put my kids in time out for sitting on a couch and putting their feet on the couch at an elderly relatives house. Kids need to learn that the standard behavior for sitting in some else's living room. OP's kids woke up there and were probably really excited to be with their cousins and for the birthday party and were rambunctious. The BIL doesn't want his own kids to learn that it is ok to stand on the armrest of the couch. He was afraid his own kids were learning how not to behave.

[Anonymous]

Yes to his removing her from the sofa. No to grabbing her legs and having a fit and screaming. (Not sure why you didn't turn around when he yelled "NO", though)

Just stay elsewhere from now on.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I assume that everyone here responding would insist that their children use their words when confronting a peer, so why is it that so many of you are just fine with the BIL angrily grabbing at a four year old girl's legs to the point that she is in tears? He didn't say, "please don't stand on the couch" or "get off the couch" or even "get off the damn couch." He said "No, no!" and then grabbed her. Do all your kids hop to attention the instant you say "no!" and do exactly what you're asking them to read your mind about? Or are they lost in their own thoughts doing their own thing and it takes them a second to process? I'm guessing the latter. That's normal four YO behavior. Even when doing something that upon reflection they should know not to do.

If he had unemotionally picked her up and set her down, that's no problem. But getting worked up about a four year old on the arm of your sofa and then grabbing at her when she's clearly scared of you and trying to get away is completely unacceptable.

The fact that he CAME AND APOLOGIZED should tell everyone what they need to know about this interaction. He was clearly in the wrong or he wouldn't have done so.

This man is clearly not in control of his temper. I feel sorry for his kids.

If my 4 year old was standing on someone's couch, I would be fine if someone removed him. He absolutely knows that isn't the right way to act, so he doesn't get warnings to comply.

I'm the first PP here. And so would I. Except after removing her, he was angrily grabbing at her. That I would NOT be fine with.

You are assuming that the child politely and compliantly stepped off the sofa arm and was obediently sitting down when BIL angrily grabbed her by the legs and started pulling her off the sofa.

I mean, come on.

Have you ever seen a kid standing on a high piece of furniture that they are not supposed to stand on, like a sofa arm or a table? They don't compliantly and safely get down whem corrected, unless the adult manually removes them. The dismount usually involves some sort of running, hopping, jumping or other equally inappropriate or dangerous behavior.

The image I have is of the girl defiantly ignoring the initial "No" and then as BIL moves towards her to manually remove her from the dangerous situation she jumps off the arm onto the couch cushions with a series of hopping runs away from him, followed by a belly flop. BIL ended up grabbing her legs vs torso in the process of trying to catch her to remove her from the couch. That is the only scenario that makes sense. I bet if BIL posted here his version would echo what I am envisioning.

(I posted earlier about having a lot of boys. Been there, done that with removing young kids from climbing/jumping on things that they shouldn't and what I described is typical of what usually happens when a kid is doing something like what OP described. There is no way on the planet that OPs daughter just obediently got off the arm and sat down to be grabbed by the legs by BIL. Couches are bouncy and fun. OPs daughter was running/jumping/bounding away across the cushions and she only witnessed the very tail end af the aftermath

[Anonymous]

I certainly wouldn't care if my child was climbing on someone's sofa. Who are you people that you think your crappy furniture is so precious?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:BIL was out of line. There are a million gentle ways to ask a child to get down from a couch. Trying to grab her legs? I would have freaked and I'm amazed at the amount of composure you showed.

OP here. The other thing is, all he said was "no...NO..." before advancing toward her and grabbing her. It is possible that my 4YO didn't know what he was asking of her.

OP you are making a lot of excuses when in your own words you did not see what happened.

" (I was with my back turned, helping my other child with something, so did not see all of it directly): My 4YO apparently climbed onto the arm rest of the couch and was standing on it. My BIL firmly told her "no...no...." and she did not comply. He then moved toward her with the intention of physically removing her from the couch. By the time I realized that there was something happening and turned around, she was on the seat of the couch crying and trying to crawl away, and he was standing over her grabbing at her legs."

Perhaps he was pointing at the couch, perhaps he was not. Unless you allow your kids to stand on the arm of the couch at home, which I doubt, even at 4 your child had to know she was doing something was wrong and therefore she knew what the no, no was about.
If you do let her stand on the arm of your own couch, then maybe she was confused and that brings up issues of what is proper and what is not in someone else's home.

I would have stayed in the room with my child to understand what happened. Asked her questions to find out why she was crying (after all you had your back turned and could not see what was happening). I probably would have reminded her not to climb on the couch and that Uncle BIL was trying to make sure that she stays safe and did not mean to scare/upset her.

In the end you have taught both your kids that Uncle BIL is mean and scary.

What you taught your BIL is that you have no respect for him or his rules and when you don't like something you are just going to walk away.
If your child was in harms way, of course remove her, but some tears from being reprimanded by a family member is not a reason to flee.

You should have de-escalated the situation and if you really thought he crossed a line you should have spoken to him about it in private.

So I agree with the majority. Your child was in the wrong. BIL was right in addressing the situation but then you escalated as he did in return. So in the end you all exhibited poor behavior except only one of the three of you is 4.
It is nice that your SIL and BIL apologized but I think you and your child should also have apologized.

Your DD should have said "Uncle BIL, I am sorry I was standing on the couch. I won't do it again". In fact had you calmed your daughter down and asked her to do that in the moment your BIL might have apologized then and there as well.

OP here. I appreciate what you say about staying in the room and getting to the bottom of all of the details of what happened. This, however, would not have been possible because my daughter was hysterically sobbing. There was no way to get anything out of her except "I want to go home" every now and then. She was sobbing very hard. And there is really no way that I know of to get a child to stop crying and answer questions when she is crying that hard.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I certainly wouldn't care if my child was climbing on someone's sofa. Who are you people that you think your crappy furniture is so precious?

Well then I hope you don't care if you are never invited back.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

OP, I'm sorry. These people are nuts. I posted a minute ago about my father and I totally understand how this whole incident could have gone down. This post has zero to do with whether she was doing something she shouldn't because it really doesn't even have that much to do with the fact that he tried discipline your kid. Correcting someone else's child who is misbehaving in your home is fine. Your BIL just has a temper and he lashed out in a totally inappropriate way. But his apology indicates that he knows it.

OP here. Thanks, PP.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I assume that everyone here responding would insist that their children use their words when confronting a peer, so why is it that so many of you are just fine with the BIL angrily grabbing at a four year old girl's legs to the point that she is in tears? He didn't say, "please don't stand on the couch" or "get off the couch" or even "get off the damn couch." He said "No, no!" and then grabbed her. Do all your kids hop to attention the instant you say "no!" and do exactly what you're asking them to read your mind about? Or are they lost in their own thoughts doing their own thing and it takes them a second to process? I'm guessing the latter. That's normal four YO behavior. Even when doing something that upon reflection they should know not to do.

If he had unemotionally picked her up and set her down, that's no problem. But getting worked up about a four year old on the arm of your sofa and then grabbing at her when she's clearly scared of you and trying to get away is completely unacceptable.

The fact that he CAME AND APOLOGIZED should tell everyone what they need to know about this interaction. He was clearly in the wrong or he wouldn't have done so.

This man is clearly not in control of his temper. I feel sorry for his kids.

I would bet he apologized because they were packing up to leave. Drama all around.

If you read the OP it sounds like he didn't even know they were packing up. Just that they had retreated to the guest room because he had reduced two children to tears and screamed in his BIL's face.

OP here. That's right; he came right up to the room a few moments later and apologized. So it wasn't at my SIL's prompting (she wasn't home). And no, he didn't know we were packing; just that we had gone to the room. And we really weren't packing--I shouldn't have said that earlier. We were just discussing packing up and leaving. Although packing up would have meant just putting the bags in the car, because basically everything was still in the bags.

Anyway, I guess I did come here because I was hoping for support, for validation that what my BIL did was wrong. I get it that many of you don't seem to agree.

OP, I'm sorry. These people are nuts. I posted a minute ago about my father and I totally understand how this whole incident could have gone down. This post has zero to do with whether she was doing something she shouldn't because it really doesn't even have that much to do with the fact that he tried discipline your kid. Correcting someone else's child who is misbehaving in your home is fine. Your BIL just has a temper and he lashed out in a totally inappropriate way. But his apology indicates that he knows it.

PP, I understand what you're talking about, because I have family with short fuses. But I want to point out that BIL screamed at OP's DH, not the child. Not the same thing.