One person wants a prenup and the other does not

[Anonymous]

16:25 here - also remember that some states are not community property states. So you'd be dividing assets in a way that reflected what you brought into the marriage, much as a prenup might.

He does sound like he could be kind of controlling and petty and maybe not really grasping the whole concept of "ours" that happens when you get married.

[Anonymous]

I'm the immediate PP. I also just wanted to say something more generally about marriage: you should not marry someone you have fundementally conflicting values with--religion, money, etc. These things that rub you the wrong way at first become HUGE issues once you are married and esp. once you bring kids into the equation.

Secondly, for me, one of the most important traits I saw in my now husband was his willingness to do pretty much anything for me—and for others. Imperfect in many ways, DH exhibits a tremendous generosity of spirit. I cannot tell you what a relief it is to be with someone like that—after years of putting up with men who were, at heart, pretty selfish.

Thirdly: every couple does different things with finances. My friends who have been divorced and gotten remarried were more cautious with dividing assets, etc, the second time around. Some of them made prenups. Not a single one of them had anything so severe and one sided as your fiancé. In my case, DH was married before . We discussed prenups ahead of time, figured that his assets and my assets were more or less even, and decided to just throw it all in together, with the idea that it was equal and we weren’t planning a divorce, but it would be evenly divided since we came into the marriage with the same amount, more or less. Since then, he’s outearned me by 60% but it is not a factor EVER in our lives. Neither our financial decisions, nor career decisions (Eg, his doesn’t trump mine). In terms of finances and careers we have a marriage of equality because we know that each partner needs to be valued, loved, and appreciated for his or her contributions. That translates to much more than just money. That means if I have to work late or travel for work, DH deals with it uncomplainingly---will your fiancé view YOUR work in the same light, or will he view you as worth 80 percent less than him because you make 80 percent less?

[Anonymous]

OP, this isn't a man who is looking to create a family with you. Not sure what he thinks he's getting out of being married, but he definitely isn't thinking of it as a partnership. Run.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The business thing could actually be a good thing - maybe you could write in that you're never personally liable for any business losses or something like that.

I've always planned to have a pre-nup if I ever married. I look at it as insurance. If all goes well, the prenup never goes into effect. If things go badly, I don't have to deal with losing the sh*t I've worked so hard for in addition to grieving the end of the marriage. I'd be fine signing a prenup as long as it didn't penalize me unnecessarily. You don't get married to get a payoff.

Wouldn't any judge say premarital assets were just that? So it seems the prenup would be useless.

The best insurance policy is to be a kind, respectful, loving person to someone who is the same. When you are not equally matched in that regard, you are headed for trouble. I would agree with a prenup of some kind if it was to protect children from previous marriages. But this is not the case. This guy is a user and is treating OP very badly. He will use and dump her. If this is what he is like with a business, he will not succeed, either.

He is out for himself. Why would ANYONE put up with this when there are lots of great guys out there?

[Anonymous]

+1 for having a prenupt. First, while both parties hope the marriage won't fail, you can only speak for yourself. By that I mean, you hope your partner won't cheat/become abusive/whatever else would tank the marriage for you but you can't control them so in a way it is like insurance and forces you to reach an agreement on things while both parties are reasonable. Take a spin through some of the divorce threads to see how people get when things get ugly.

[Anonymous]

When two people with a substantial difference in assets or income get married a pre-nup is not just advisable but it is insanity not to have one. This is even more so if there are children from a prior marriage or a business or a major inheritance.

To say that going into a marriage without a prenup is an indication of lacking commitment or wanting to leave down the line is ludicrous. Given the failure rate of marriages a prenup is the wise course of action.

OP, I don't know how much time and emotion you have invested in this relationship but don't listen to the nutty women on this thread on this issue. You know better than any of them whether this guy is a decent person and certainly his wish for a prenup is not something that should determine whether you continue the relationship. But at the same time you need a fair prenup and that is something that only a lawyer who is experienced in this area can do for you. Certainly, I don't see why he should pay for your lawyer and, in any event, I'd be wary of any advice you get from a lawyer whose fees he is paying.

But above all don't listen to this chorus of advice telling you to run from the relationship. If this is one of several other major issues that are plaguing the relationship then you need to consider whether you wish to continue with this guy but to end it based on just a single issue is idiotic.

[Anonymous]

OP--are you from outside America? I re-read your posts and picked up on some syntax that didn't necessarily sound like someone who is a native English speaker. I'm wondering if you are feeling pressured by family to get married or not feeling empowered to stand up for yourself. As others have noted, it is rare to get such consensus on 7 pages of a DCUM thread. Marriage is a contract into which you not want enter with this man, whether or not you have a pre-nup.

[Anonymous]

When two people with a substantial difference in assets or income get married a pre-nup is not just advisable but it is insanity not to have one. This is even more so if there are children from a prior marriage or a business or a major inheritance.

Perhaps, but the issue here is not protecting any significant premarital assets or children from a prior marriage OR about finding an equitable solution that protects both parties in the event of a divorce. The issue is that the OP's fiancé has proposed a prenup that does not meet the standards of fairness--and to boot he claims that this is the basis of a 'healthy' divorce.' In fact, prenups can be disputed in court--if they don't meed a standard of substantive fairness, they can be dismissed. . I would have no issues with a prenup that protects premarital assets, but here, the fiancé wants to stipulate that any money he makes from his career is off limits--even if she spends much of her time working to support that career in a wide variety of ways. that he expects to start a business during the marriage--an anedavor that requires support of both parties (financial, time, sacrifice) but wants to restrict any success to himself is bothersome. The other HUGE red flag is that he seems wholly unconcerned with her financial stability and well being --she doesn't have enough $ to save for retirement, which she absolutely should be doing. As a contrast, when I met my husband, he was not saving much for retirement--which worried me. We reworked our budget so I saved less than I was and he saved more--he's older and will need it sooner. Perhaps she is a bad manager of money, perhaps she is in a low paying field, but there is not a single indication that he views marriage as a partnership of mutual support.

OP, one of the questions I have is what has been the situation so far?

--How do you split expenses now? Do you live together? if you take a trip, how do you split expenses?
--before he agreed to a joint account, how did he want to handle things? by proportion of income? What happens if you disagree over the necessity or desirability of a purchase? what expenses would you/he consider joint? childcare? groceries? etc?
--what is your current income versus his? what are your income prospects vs his?
--how does he expect to get the capital to start a business?


I think the only way that OP could enter this marriage without extreme risk is if she had similar income/assets to her fiancé. But he's arranging things so that he takes NO risk and she eats it all. If he views marriage with her as such a risky prospect, I question his commitment

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think OP is considering marrying him because she is in her 30's and can hear her biological clock ticking. Totally understandable. However, I think she is better off going to a sperm bank and being a single mother than marrying this guy.

I 100% agree with your statement and I am a pro-Arlington traditional diocese Catholic.

Do not marry this guy

Walk away now before you are trapped for life.

[Anonymous]

I didn't read the whole thread, but I see you've already answered the question about family businesses, which is (as I see it) one of the few legitimate reasons for a prenup?

Is it possible it's some sort of other family issue? You say his parents are still happily married without one? Is it possible to do with some type of inheritance? Some relative insisting he get a prenup or they won't leave him any money?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What about this OP - ask him if you can speak to his attorney who drafted this godforsaken slanted pre-nup and ask point by point some of the things presented here? So for example, "what would happen if I contribute in non-financial ways toward the success of any future business, how is this clause to be interpreted? What would happen if he goes into debt on this business or gets sued, am I personally protected? (the answer is no by the way, but still ask). Go piece by piece through it and ask his own damn lawyer what their thoughts are and just make changes yourself as you see fit.

Not ethical on the part of the attorney. An attorney represents a client. Period. He/she has a duty of zealous representation to that client. He/she cannot tell the other side "what their thoughts are" for guidance. An attorney has to zealous in protecting a client's rights.

Yeah, I guess I was coming at it from more of a negotiating tactic where OP would basically be representing herself? How would she even counter some of this stuff if the attorney can't talk to her and she can't afford an attorney?

She can tell her fiancee that if he cares strongly about a pre nup, he can pay for their attorneys. Both of the attorneys.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
OP, I don't know how much time and emotion you have invested in this relationship but don't listen to the nutty women on this thread on this issue. You know better than any of them whether this guy is a decent person and certainly his wish for a prenup is not something that should determine whether you continue the relationship. But at the same time you need a fair prenup and that is something that only a lawyer who is experienced in this area can do for you. Certainly, I don't see why he should pay for your lawyer and, in any event, I'd be wary of any advice you get from a lawyer whose fees he is paying.

But above all don't listen to this chorus of advice telling you to run from the relationship. If this is one of several other major issues that are plaguing the relationship then you need to consider whether you wish to continue with this guy but to end it based on just a single issue is idiotic.

So you agree that she needs her own lawyer. It'd be nice if her lawyer were of the same quality as his lawyer, huh? How is she supposed to pay for that on her much smaller income? Is she supposed to borrow (and then pay interest on) the money? He's very clear that his money is all his, so that is putting her to a large expense without any regard for its effect on her.

Let me know what your plan is for her to get a fair shake without going broke. I'll be over here waiting for answer.

[Anonymous]

Agree with most of the PPs. It's a bad sign that the pre-nup is so lopsided. As others have asked, what about uncompensated work? Just as much as finances play a role in marital discord, so does inequitable division of labor, and infidelity. Does this pre-nup include a cook, house cleaner, a nanny and a surrogate so there is nothing that takes away from minute of your monetary contribution potential? Is he obligated to go to 50% of any kid related events I.e. Parent teacher conferences, sick days, performances mid-day etc?

In regards to infidelity, what happens if he cheats? Say you do SAH with no outside help and he cheats, are you supposed to hit the streets with your kids with no way to put a roof over your head with 20% of the house value? What happens if one of you gets sick? It sounds like separate accounts are supposed to help keep contribution amounts separate so will this be like the Joy Luck Club scene where the husband buys ice-cream and divides the grocery bill in half and says she owes a certain amount and the character says she doesn't even eat ice-cream? As other people said, what if his business is sued or he racks up significant debt? How does this work that you take on all the risks of the marriage going south but he gets to protect himself? So no way. It's one thing to protect significant assets brought into a marriage or protect finances for kids from a prior marriage but this isn't either case. As for the 401K/retirement, my only caution there is if you do have kids together and there is the possibility if alimony or child support, he could contribute heavily to retirement to protect those assets.

[Anonymous]

OP, is this the first time you have seen this dynamic in your relationship? Please be honest. Assuming you live together now, how does the domestic work playout? Who makes meals? Who cleans?

Think about your own status and freedom: What is your current employment level? Have you finished a graduate degree? Do you have good credit? Do you have savings?

If he were to turn you out on the streets today, what would you do?

It definitely seems like there is a major power imbalance. Is there family wealth that he is trying g to protect, or does he just think you are a gold digger? Does he have reason to?

[Anonymous]

Sounds like he wants an indentured servant, not a wife.