Straight A's but only if I yell

[Anonymous]

PS, asshole. You've apparently confused me with the posters here who do go in for helicoptering and demanding As. That makes you even more of an asshole, not less. Go stick your head in a bucket.

(That felt good! Because you so deserved it! Taking your idiotic manipulative ramblings passively seemed so wrong!)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:PS, asshole. You've apparently confused me with the posters here who do go in for helicoptering and demanding As. That makes you even more of an asshole, not less. Go stick your head in a bucket.

(That felt good! Because you so deserved it! Taking your idiotic manipulative ramblings passively seemed so wrong!)

Should add: with a manipulative, word-twisting psych case such as yourself for a parent, your own kids are doomed. Doomed, I say.

(Yes! Maybe I helped your kids too this time! Although you seem to lack reading comprehension and any sort of self-awareness, so the prospects for your kids still aren't good.)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

I' m not the PP to whom you are directing your aggressive question, but I'll offer an idea.

How do you measure effort? You don't.

Instead, you talk with your child in a way that helps THEM learn to notice, measure and assess their effort. Because ultimately, that's what it's all about. Not doing it for Mommy, but doing it for themselves.

What does this look like in reality?

It's a dialogue where the focus is on THEM, not you.

For example, you ask them how they went about preparing for something. You ask them how they feel about the effort they put in. You ask them what they think of the outcome. You ask them what they think about the relationship between their effort and the outcome.

Do you ask these questions all at once? Of course not. It's not an inquisition.

Do you you ask them after every assignment or grade? Again, no.

Instead, you integrate the questions in small bits into the many other conversations you have over time time with your DC. You ask sometimes when they do well (to hear them describe to you and to themselves what was effective). And you ask sometimes when they didn't do well. It's just a normal "sometimes" topic of conversation among many others.

But here's the key:

You need to have the right motive and intent in asking these questions.

You don't ask about their efforts (or their feelings about their efforts or results) as a test or a quiz to see if they come up with the "right" answer according to you.

You ask because you're curious and eager to understand your child as he is right now, to hold his hand as he figures things out and develops over time. You ask in order to listen, and you listen to understand. Not necessarily to correct. Help your kid slow down enough to notice and evaluate his own choices, and give him space and cheer him on as he learns to make choices that work.

Again, you need to honest with yourself up front. if you're going to ask your kid questions like this with judgment (or worse, with "corrective action" in mind if he's not yet where you think he should be), please hold your tongue. You will only do further damage, and it's best to steer clear.

So we should have periodic talks with our children about how they "feel" about homework? This sounds beyond manipulative, because your kid knows exactly why you're asking these so-called benign questions. Kids can see right through this stuff.

Have we all lost our minds? Why can't any of you see any middle ground between helicoptering your kid into Harvard vs. abdicating all responsibility for guidance and using manipulation instead? There has to be some common sense.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why are you so concerned with "measuring" your kids? What are you "measuring" them against?

What are you so afraid will happen if they don't "measure" up, either temporarilily or permanently?
And why are you so convinced that they will only "measure" up if you force them to?

Accusing me of "measuring" my kids is complete distortion of what I just said. I'll thank you for stopping that.

My point was, I actually agree that grades shouldn't be the measure. I never, ever said we should "force" kids to get As.

However, I do heartily believe that we should encourage effort (the bold is for your own, private benefit). Without encouraging effort we end up with a nation of entitled slackers who are still living with Mom and Dad in their 30s, and Mom and Dad are still paying the cable bill and shopping for the chips. Is that really what you want? So I asked you how you measure effort since we agree that we shouldn't be measuring grades. So why don't you go back and try again to answer the question.

I' m not the PP to whom you are directing your aggressive question, but I'll offer an idea.

How do you measure effort? You don't.

Instead, you talk with your child in a way that helps THEM learn to notice, measure and assess their effort. Because ultimately, that's what it's all about. Not doing it for Mommy, but doing it for themselves.

What does this look like in reality?

It's a dialogue where the focus is on THEM, not you.

For example, you ask them how they went about preparing for something. You ask them how they feel about the effort they put in. You ask them what they think of the outcome. You ask them what they think about the relationship between their effort and the outcome.

Do you ask these questions all at once? Of course not. It's not an inquisition.

Do you you ask them after every assignment or grade? Again, no.

Instead, you integrate the questions in small bits into the many other conversations you have over time time with your DC. You ask sometimes when they do well (to hear them describe to you and to themselves what was effective). And you ask sometimes when they didn't do well. It's just a normal "sometimes" topic of conversation among many others.

But here's the key:

You need to have the right motive and intent in asking these questions.

You don't ask about their efforts (or their feelings about their efforts or results) as a test or a quiz to see if they come up with the "right" answer according to you.

You ask because you're curious and eager to understand your child as he is right now, to hold his hand as he figures things out and develops over time. You ask in order to listen, and you listen to understand. Not necessarily to correct. Help your kid slow down enough to notice and evaluate his own choices, and give him space and cheer him on as he learns to make choices that work.

Again, you need to honest with yourself up front. if you're going to ask your kid questions like this with judgment (or worse, with "corrective action" in mind if he's not yet where you think he should be), please hold your tongue. You will only do further damage, and it's best to steer clear.

I happen to agree with you that the point is internal motivation. I asked a reasonable question.

Your post speaks more to what's going on in your own warped, manipulative mind. I NEVER SAID the things you attribute to me. Instead, you've twisted my post into some sort of fascist inquisition focussed on the parent not the child, by putting a whole bunch of words into my mouth and assuming things that nobody sane or rationale could read in my post. This says a whole lot more about you than about me. You're psychotic, and your own post is incredibly aggressive and manipulative.

Goodbye.

Perhaps my post was not clear. I apologize for that!

To clear the air, please know that I was not attributing anything to you, other than a question about how to measure results. And I was offering my point of view on that issue.

As for the structure of my post, I like advice that include specifics, not just generalities or theories. Specific examples are very helpful to me, and I assume to others.

So the framework I chose to communicate my thoughts was a version of "Do this. Don't do that." Again, I was trying to make it specific and concrete.

Looking back, I can see how you thought I was criticizing you directly. I absolutely wasn't! As you said, there was nothing in your previous post that said any of those things.

But yes, I did use the word "you" instead of something more universal like "we," "one," or even "a parent" in laying out my "do this / Don't do that" ideas.

So of course, I apologize for offending you. I did not mean to do that.

I was merely. offering my opinion on how to sharpen our kids' abilities to measure their own effort, rather than look to or rely on their parents to monitor it on their behalf. You may disagree, which is of course just fine. To each her own.

Again, I am sorry I offended you. Peace.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I' m not the PP to whom you are directing your aggressive question, but I'll offer an idea.

How do you measure effort? You don't.

Instead, you talk with your child in a way that helps THEM learn to notice, measure and assess their effort. Because ultimately, that's what it's all about. Not doing it for Mommy, but doing it for themselves.

What does this look like in reality?

It's a dialogue where the focus is on THEM, not you.

For example, you ask them how they went about preparing for something. You ask them how they feel about the effort they put in. You ask them what they think of the outcome. You ask them what they think about the relationship between their effort and the outcome.

Do you ask these questions all at once? Of course not. It's not an inquisition.

Do you you ask them after every assignment or grade? Again, no.

Instead, you integrate the questions in small bits into the many other conversations you have over time time with your DC. You ask sometimes when they do well (to hear them describe to you and to themselves what was effective). And you ask sometimes when they didn't do well. It's just a normal "sometimes" topic of conversation among many others.

But here's the key:

You need to have the right motive and intent in asking these questions.

You don't ask about their efforts (or their feelings about their efforts or results) as a test or a quiz to see if they come up with the "right" answer according to you.

You ask because you're curious and eager to understand your child as he is right now, to hold his hand as he figures things out and develops over time. You ask in order to listen, and you listen to understand. Not necessarily to correct. Help your kid slow down enough to notice and evaluate his own choices, and give him space and cheer him on as he learns to make choices that work.

Again, you need to honest with yourself up front. if you're going to ask your kid questions like this with judgment (or worse, with "corrective action" in mind if he's not yet where you think he should be), please hold your tongue. You will only do further damage, and it's best to steer clear.

So we should have periodic talks with our children about how they "feel" about homework? This sounds beyond manipulative, because your kid knows exactly why you're asking these so-called benign questions. Kids can see right through this stuff.

Have we all lost our minds? Why can't any of you see any middle ground between helicoptering your kid into Harvard vs. abdicating all responsibility for guidance and using manipulation instead? There has to be some common sense.

It's not manipulation if you allow them to make the up choice untimely and live with the natural consequences.

For example, DD decided to turn in an incomplete homework assignment. I knew about it. We talked about it briefly. She made her choice. The teacher made her take it home and complete it. DD gained nothing from her choice in the end. What did she learn from it? What will she do differently next time? We'll see.

My intent in talking with her before she turned in the assignment was not to manipulate her into finishing it. It was to help get slow down and think about her choice. But ultimately it was her choice. And her consequence.

Of course, she'll have plenty more choices in similar situations this year. I'm confident she'll figure our how to make decisions that serve her well.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Perhaps my post was not clear. I apologize for that!

To clear the air, please know that I was not attributing anything to you, other than a question about how to measure results. And I was offering my point of view on that issue.

As for the structure of my post, I like advice that include specifics, not just generalities or theories. Specific examples are very helpful to me, and I assume to others.

So the framework I chose to communicate my thoughts was a version of "Do this. Don't do that." Again, I was trying to make it specific and concrete.

Looking back, I can see how you thought I was criticizing you directly. I absolutely wasn't! As you said, there was nothing in your previous post that said any of those things.

But yes, I did use the word "you" instead of something more universal like "we," "one," or even "a parent" in laying out my "do this / Don't do that" ideas.

So of course, I apologize for offending you. I did not mean to do that.

I was merely. offering my opinion on how to sharpen our kids' abilities to measure their own effort, rather than look to or rely on their parents to monitor it on their behalf. You may disagree, which is of course just fine. To each her own.

Again, I am sorry I offended you. Peace.

Wow, a DCUM apology! Thank you for that. In turn I'll apologize for flying off the handle, especially in my 2nd and 3rd posts. And, well, for posting three times. I re-read your post and I agree it could be read in a much nicer way.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Perhaps my post was not clear. I apologize for that!

To clear the air, please know that I was not attributing anything to you, other than a question about how to measure results. And I was offering my point of view on that issue.

As for the structure of my post, I like advice that include specifics, not just generalities or theories. Specific examples are very helpful to me, and I assume to others.

So the framework I chose to communicate my thoughts was a version of "Do this. Don't do that." Again, I was trying to make it specific and concrete.

Looking back, I can see how you thought I was criticizing you directly. I absolutely wasn't! As you said, there was nothing in your previous post that said any of those things.

But yes, I did use the word "you" instead of something more universal like "we," "one," or even "a parent" in laying out my "do this / Don't do that" ideas.

So of course, I apologize for offending you. I did not mean to do that.

I was merely. offering my opinion on how to sharpen our kids' abilities to measure their own effort, rather than look to or rely on their parents to monitor it on their behalf. You may disagree, which is of course just fine. To each her own.

Again, I am sorry I offended you. Peace.

Wow, a DCUM apology! Thank you for that. In turn I'll apologize for flying off the handle, especially in my 2nd and 3rd posts. And, well, for posting three times. I re-read your post and I agree it could be read in a much nicer way.

All good!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I almost agreed with your almost agreement of me.

Then, I reflected that although I am not a tiger mom, I know full well (alas) that the helicopter mom shoe fits me quite well. I try to be a stealth mom (so that I hover in the background and make sure I know every little thing that is going on, even though I don't necessarily engage kid about every little "mistep" I notice).

If I could just get him to care about science like he cares about piano...

Sheesh, at least he cares about something. I only wish, for my kid. Maybe you could get your prodigy interested in the physics of sound.

Believe me, he's no prodigy - just a reasonably talented kid. Yes, watching him practice piano does give me hope that that he has it in him to be engaged and to persevere.

[Anonymous]

OP, I think you are right to push at age 10. Put those habits in place. But you need to consider the overall academics of your child. are you trying for an Ivy? Yes parents who try for an Ivy (I am surrounded by them) start very early. But before you drive yourself and your kid crazy, does he have the intellectual ability to do that? Pushing very hard to do something he can't do is counter productive.

[Anonymous]

OP again. I don't think an Ivy is necessarily in DD's future and that is okay with me. I've known people who've attended Harvard, Cornell, and U Penn who haven't impressed me and people who have attended state schools who have knocked my socks off.  I'm not looking for a brand name label for my DD- but rather that she develops a good work ethic and has marketable skills and attends the right school for her interest. Is that Va Tech, UMD, Yale? That is something we will figure out over the next ten years.

I was talking with a top executive at my company this week and he was telling me how he didn't push his kids and while they are good people, he wished he had pushed them harder when they were younger.

There is a balance but hands off parenting is not my style.

[Anonymous]

OP here- I thought I would provide an update as a cautionary tale.

My daughter is no longer 10 she's 12. I no longer "yell" at my daughter. My approach was causing a chasm between us.

I've radically changed the way I talk and deal with her. While she can be moody, unmotivated, and difficult at times- yelling at her at this age just makes her shutdown.

I've become more understanding and less judging. She's still a straight A student but the approach has made all the difference in the world in terms of our home environment.

[Anonymous]

Aw, thanks for this update, OP! I love it when people update their posts years later; it's like reading a story.

Sounds like a good approach and a good relationship. Good on you!

[Anonymous]

Congrats op, glad you found a softer path.

- NP interested in this topic who didn't realized the thread was years old at first!

[Anonymous]

My dad always used the 'investment' analogy. WHen my sister married someone he didn't approve of, he wrote her out of the family. Said she was a bad investment who didn't perform up to his expectations.

You better believe that affected my parenting. HOnestly, though, what affected my parenting the most was coming to know God when my children were toddlers. I believe strongly that God has a plan for each of my children's lives and that it is up to me to support them in the gifts that they have been given, not to yell and scream at them to become the people I want them to be. More than anything, though, I didn't want my children to grow up believing that they were broken and in need of repair, or that I was disappointed in them for not living up to my standards.

Yes, we did homework. Yes, I kept track of grades. But I also listened to them when they told me what excites them about academics and extracurriculars. Last year I watched my daughter play a concerto with her university's orchestra and had a son surprise the heck out of me when he told me he wanted to be an econ major! I have a child who wants to spend their junior year in India! None of these are things I would have necessarily planned. And I'm glad I let them blossom and show me who they were meant to become, rather than having me force them to be engineers.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Back off. Failure is cheap at this age (unless you plan on folowing her to college and afterwards). Motivation has to come from the child. External incentives can help the internal motivation. Praise and reward effort.

Tell that to my Korean tiger mom. She rode my ass like a rented mule until I got my offer letters from schools she determined was acceptable. And even then, do you think she was going to let me fuck around with some bullshit degree like psychology or English Lit?

Riding your kids ass does indeed work.