DD 15 just won’t listen to reason!

[Anonymous]

We're quite religious but let our 3 kids make their own choice about church right around age 15.

One not really been back to church at all aside from Christmas and Easter and is now a sophomore in college. The second kept going every Sunday morning and to youth group as well. The third just attends weekly youth group.

Life is long. All 3 will no undoubtedly be on a faith journey across their lifetimes. You can't force kids to believe. It has to be something that comes from within.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We go to church every Sunday. As a family. Non-negotiable, sorry. That’s how it’s always been. When my DD 15 moves out of the house she can skip church if she’d like, she can join a monastery for all I care, but right now she lives with us and every Sunday you better believe she will be at church with us. End of discussion!

But she won’t listen to reason. She’s insisting that she’s an “atheist” and that somehow means she should be exempt from the family rule. Not how it works! She says that church makes her uncomfortable and has said that she has issues with “religion being homophobic.” Well our church isn’t, the minister’s daughter is married to a woman! But I can’t persuade her. It’s always a fight, every single week, and I’m just exhausted. How do I make my daughter understand why this is required?

This is a tough one OP. We've had a similar rule and age 14-15 is where we've run into problems.

Does she have friends at church? Is there a youth group or Sunday school class for teens? This helps a lot. I've agreed to let mine skip church services if they go to Youth group, sunday school or something else instead.

Does her dad attend church with the family?

Supposedly, Dad in the home attending church regularly is the strongest indicator of whether teens, boys and girls both, attend church.

**********

An argument that got all my kids through that tern hump was that I posed this 2 part question to them, followed by my answer after they gave their answer.

The first question was, what happens if atheism is correct, and you still participate in our family's faith traditions without a fight? I let them answer, then say that if atheism is correct, you don't lose anything by attending. What you receive is a nice weekly tradition of a couple of hours spending time with our family, some really nice holiday traditions, a moral code that is just, kind, and reasonable, and a stronger grasp than most of your peers of world history, modern western law, and current events, through your understanding of Christianity and the Bible.

After they have a second to digest that, I then ask the second half of the question which is what if the atheists are wrong and I am correct? For this question, I don't say anything else and let them stew on it. 4 kids and that question tends to move them to silence, with wheels turning in their brains.

That combination of questions makes them stop and think in a way that transcends tiktok, social media, and their peers.

4/4 and after those 2 questions, I have never again gotten pushback from my teens about attending church with the family.

What you lose is sleep. Afternoon services would be an easier sell to teens.

And that is a reasonable pushback with a reasonable solution.

Catholic churches and most evangelical mega churches have late morning and evening options.

If they are at one of the mainstream protestant churches that tend to be smaller due to falling membership, then the lack of worship times is likely exasperating the issue. In this case, the response to your statement that the drawback is losing sleep, the answer is that it is our job as parents to install behaviors in you that teach you discipline and self sacrifice, particularly for your family, whether you are an atheist or a nun or anything in between. Our family routine of attending Sunday services is how we choose to instill that value in you, so as a member of our family, you will attend

There are many ways to approach this argument with a budding atheist that are seeped in 9th grade logic and which do not include picking up a teenager and throwing her in the car.

Heck, 1 hour of Scripture study each week would likely be better than what is happening now. There are some great apps, such as Bible in a Year that you could study with her.

Explain to her that even if she is a virulent atheist, she will not be culturally literate or able to understand modern laws, the development of our western modern justice system, cultural norms in the US, the development of universal puplic education, public works/poverty services (driven by Christians), civil rights (driven by Christians) the anti slavery movement (driven by Christians), and much of the US hospital system (created mostly by Christians, specifically Catholics) without an understanding of Christianity, Christian philosophy, Christian social teaching, and the Bible.

Atheists' main claim to fame is that they are more enlightened and focus on truths and science, unburdened by myths, rituals, and superstitions of those pesky religious people.

The answer to that is any atheist without a solid knowlege base of the Bible, Christianity, Christian history and Christian moral teachings is completely ignorant, completely unenlightened, terribly uninformed, and lacking rudimentary education.

Nonsense. Christianity is based on destroying other beliefs, cultures and building upon them. You believe in lies. Your major holidays -- Christmas and Easter -- are so-called pagan. You literally destroyed art (Roman) and religious centers (in Europe) and then stole the concepts. I happen to come from an area which was destroyed by Teutonic Knights who were bringing the so-called "Enlightenment". They used lies to kill the leaders and force the people to convert, in order to have access to resources (mostly land at that time). In reality, atheists are much more informed about Christianity than the so-called Christians. You don't know your own history, because you're not taught that. If you would, you'd be aghast. There is a reason old religions are making a come-back, because they're based on believing in nature and no proselytizing. Just to let you know your "Christmas" is Winter Solstice (hence your "Christmas tree", which was burned at the solstice) and your "Easter" is Spring Equinox (hence the eggs and rabbits for rebirth).

[Anonymous]

If this is your hill to die on, then you have two options. You can incentivize her attendance or punish her for not attending. The incentive or punishment that is effective will be dependent on your child.

This was also my mom's hill to die on. I haven't seen her in years. She is not part of my life.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We go to church every Sunday. As a family. Non-negotiable, sorry. That’s how it’s always been. When my DD 15 moves out of the house she can skip church if she’d like, she can join a monastery for all I care, but right now she lives with us and every Sunday you better believe she will be at church with us. End of discussion!

But she won’t listen to reason. She’s insisting that she’s an “atheist” and that somehow means she should be exempt from the family rule. Not how it works! She says that church makes her uncomfortable and has said that she has issues with “religion being homophobic.” Well our church isn’t, the minister’s daughter is married to a woman! But I can’t persuade her. It’s always a fight, every single week, and I’m just exhausted. How do I make my daughter understand why this is required?

This is a tough one OP. We've had a similar rule and age 14-15 is where we've run into problems.

Does she have friends at church? Is there a youth group or Sunday school class for teens? This helps a lot. I've agreed to let mine skip church services if they go to Youth group, sunday school or something else instead.

Does her dad attend church with the family?

Supposedly, Dad in the home attending church regularly is the strongest indicator of whether teens, boys and girls both, attend church.

**********

An argument that got all my kids through that tern hump was that I posed this 2 part question to them, followed by my answer after they gave their answer.

The first question was, what happens if atheism is correct, and you still participate in our family's faith traditions without a fight? I let them answer, then say that if atheism is correct, you don't lose anything by attending. What you receive is a nice weekly tradition of a couple of hours spending time with our family, some really nice holiday traditions, a moral code that is just, kind, and reasonable, and a stronger grasp than most of your peers of world history, modern western law, and current events, through your understanding of Christianity and the Bible.

After they have a second to digest that, I then ask the second half of the question which is what if the atheists are wrong and I am correct? For this question, I don't say anything else and let them stew on it. 4 kids and that question tends to move them to silence, with wheels turning in their brains.

That combination of questions makes them stop and think in a way that transcends tiktok, social media, and their peers.

4/4 and after those 2 questions, I have never again gotten pushback from my teens about attending church with the family.

What you lose is sleep. Afternoon services would be an easier sell to teens.

And that is a reasonable pushback with a reasonable solution.

Catholic churches and most evangelical mega churches have late morning and evening options.

If they are at one of the mainstream protestant churches that tend to be smaller due to falling membership, then the lack of worship times is likely exasperating the issue. In this case, the response to your statement that the drawback is losing sleep, the answer is that it is our job as parents to install behaviors in you that teach you discipline and self sacrifice, particularly for your family, whether you are an atheist or a nun or anything in between. Our family routine of attending Sunday services is how we choose to instill that value in you, so as a member of our family, you will attend

There are many ways to approach this argument with a budding atheist that are seeped in 9th grade logic and which do not include picking up a teenager and throwing her in the car.

Heck, 1 hour of Scripture study each week would likely be better than what is happening now. There are some great apps, such as Bible in a Year that you could study with her.

Explain to her that even if she is a virulent atheist, she will not be culturally literate or able to understand modern laws, the development of our western modern justice system, cultural norms in the US, the development of universal puplic education, public works/poverty services (driven by Christians), civil rights (driven by Christians) the anti slavery movement (driven by Christians), and much of the US hospital system (created mostly by Christians, specifically Catholics) without an understanding of Christianity, Christian philosophy, Christian social teaching, and the Bible.

Atheists' main claim to fame is that they are more enlightened and focus on truths and science, unburdened by myths, rituals, and superstitions of those pesky religious people.

The answer to that is any atheist without a solid knowlege base of the Bible, Christianity, Christian history and Christian moral teachings is completely ignorant, completely unenlightened, terribly uninformed, and lacking rudimentary education.

lol what? You think you have to be Christian to understand the anti-slavery movement and the judicial system? All of this is taught in secular school…

It’s not that deep, and you can take any of these classes in high school history / government. I am an atheist and I don’t think I am “enlightened” - I just was not raised with religion. when I look around and see all these horrible things happening in the world (childhood cancer, car accidents) and the religious answer is that we have free will and God gives us what we can handle or God has a plan, I have a hard time buying it. I do understand the urge to believe in something greater to help comfort but I frankly just don’t buy it.

[Anonymous]

You are hardly enlightened by attending church. You are indoctrinated with whatever teachings they immerse you in.

I cannot believe that has to be spelled out.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Explain to her that even if she is a virulent atheist, she will not be culturally literate or able to understand modern laws, the development of our western modern justice system, cultural norms in the US, the development of universal puplic education, public works/poverty services (driven by Christians), civil rights (driven by Christians) the anti slavery movement (driven by Christians), and much of the US hospital system (created mostly by Christians, specifically Catholics) without an understanding of Christianity, Christian philosophy, Christian social teaching, and the Bible.

Atheists' main claim to fame is that they are more enlightened and focus on truths and science, unburdened by myths, rituals, and superstitions of those pesky religious people.

The answer to that is any atheist without a solid knowlege base of the Bible, Christianity, Christian history and Christian moral teachings is completely ignorant, completely unenlightened, terribly uninformed, and lacking rudimentary education.

Someone certainly has a high opinion of herself. Pride goeth before destruction, and a haughty spirit before a fall.

What is haughty about saying, okay, you are an atheist, so at least be an educated, historically literate atheist with a basic understanding of how Christianity shaped our modern western society, literature, arts, science, medicine, architecture, social services, universal education, civil rights, western intellectual inquiry and the concept of freedom and individual rights.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Explain to her that even if she is a virulent atheist, she will not be culturally literate or able to understand modern laws, the development of our western modern justice system, cultural norms in the US, the development of universal puplic education, public works/poverty services (driven by Christians), civil rights (driven by Christians) the anti slavery movement (driven by Christians), and much of the US hospital system (created mostly by Christians, specifically Catholics) without an understanding of Christianity, Christian philosophy, Christian social teaching, and the Bible.

Atheists' main claim to fame is that they are more enlightened and focus on truths and science, unburdened by myths, rituals, and superstitions of those pesky religious people.

The answer to that is any atheist without a solid knowlege base of the Bible, Christianity, Christian history and Christian moral teachings is completely ignorant, completely unenlightened, terribly uninformed, and lacking rudimentary education.

Someone certainly has a high opinion of herself. Pride goeth before destruction, and a haughty spirit before a fall.

What is haughty about saying, okay, you are an atheist, so at least be an educated, historically literate atheist with a basic understanding of how Christianity shaped our modern western society, literature, arts, science, medicine, architecture, social services, universal education, civil rights, western intellectual inquiry and the concept of freedom and individual rights.

That's not what you said at all. You said a non-Christian is not able to understand modern laws, the development of our western modern justice system, cultural norms in the US, the development of universal "puplic education", public works, civil rights, the anti-slavery movement, or much of the US hospital system. This is a slanderous lie. And it's bigoted (it's certainly antisemitic for one).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We go to church every Sunday. As a family. Non-negotiable, sorry. That’s how it’s always been. When my DD 15 moves out of the house she can skip church if she’d like, she can join a monastery for all I care, but right now she lives with us and every Sunday you better believe she will be at church with us. End of discussion!

But she won’t listen to reason. She’s insisting that she’s an “atheist” and that somehow means she should be exempt from the family rule. Not how it works! She says that church makes her uncomfortable and has said that she has issues with “religion being homophobic.” Well our church isn’t, the minister’s daughter is married to a woman! But I can’t persuade her. It’s always a fight, every single week, and I’m just exhausted. How do I make my daughter understand why this is required?

This is a tough one OP. We've had a similar rule and age 14-15 is where we've run into problems.

Does she have friends at church? Is there a youth group or Sunday school class for teens? This helps a lot. I've agreed to let mine skip church services if they go to Youth group, sunday school or something else instead.

Does her dad attend church with the family?

Supposedly, Dad in the home attending church regularly is the strongest indicator of whether teens, boys and girls both, attend church.

**********

An argument that got all my kids through that tern hump was that I posed this 2 part question to them, followed by my answer after they gave their answer.

The first question was, what happens if atheism is correct, and you still participate in our family's faith traditions without a fight? I let them answer, then say that if atheism is correct, you don't lose anything by attending. What you receive is a nice weekly tradition of a couple of hours spending time with our family, some really nice holiday traditions, a moral code that is just, kind, and reasonable, and a stronger grasp than most of your peers of world history, modern western law, and current events, through your understanding of Christianity and the Bible.

After they have a second to digest that, I then ask the second half of the question which is what if the atheists are wrong and I am correct? For this question, I don't say anything else and let them stew on it. 4 kids and that question tends to move them to silence, with wheels turning in their brains.

That combination of questions makes them stop and think in a way that transcends tiktok, social media, and their peers.

4/4 and after those 2 questions, I have never again gotten pushback from my teens about attending church with the family.

Wow.

We are a family that attends church, including the majority of our teens, but if those questions worked you have done a terrible job raising children who think.

1). This kid isn’t, for whatever reason, experiencing church as a “nice weekly tradition”, or their moral code as “just, kind, and reasonable.” There are plenty of churches out there whose moral codes aren’t (note: I don’t even have to name my political opinion here, every Christian has heard things proclaimed in the name of Christ that they don’t believe or find reasonable) OP claims that her church isn’t homophobic based on the pastor’s daughter, when we know the homophonic people can have LGBTQ relatives.

2) The Bible is clear that the path to Jesus is belief, not attending church. So if someone attends church and doesn’t believe then they will have the same experience and they didn’t attend church.

What has worked for us in adolescence is exploring with our kids what is important to them, and looking for a church that takes an active stance on those issues. We did change churches, to one that takes a strong pro LGBT stance. We also talked about other ways we can show our values. Our kids do a lot of service, most of it unconnected to church.

Did it work perfectly? No. Sometimes our kids choose to sleep through church, or to schedule things during church. But being crystal clear that their faith journey is their own, and that our love and acceptance have nothing to do with where they are on that journey, and avoiding power struggles and physical abuse, has worked for us in that we have kids who feel respected, and who in turn respect our beliefs.

yes, of course, all these things.

But OP needs a rudimentary starting point.

FWIW, my kids all continue to attend church, including the young adults, with zero prompting. Several have had high school friends who have converted or reverted based on their examples and ability to explain faith to kids raised with no faith in a way that makes sense. We have had high school and college acquaintances ask to attend church with us.

If you are a church going Christian family in the DC area, then you are very much a minority and your kids are absolutely surrounded by peers who are atheist, evangelical atheist, agnostic, raised without religion, Christmas/Easter and cultural "christians" who place religion below sports, dance competitions, sleeping in and trips to starbucks, and former religious who actively rejected faith.

Social media is loaded with immense pressure to reject both faith and family.

My kids know theology, our faith, the Bible and faith traditions. They are very well informed.

But when that whisper of atheism from their friends and social media creep in, you have to fight false emotiinally driven claims of "logic" that OPs daughter is espousing, with basic, rudimentary logic, to open the ears and heart that are currently slamming shut.

Right now, OP is just trying to get her foot in the door.

Good lord (no pun intended).

What you call logic reads to the rest of us as manipulation of not particularly bright or well-informed kids.

My answer to you, by the way, would be return questions - Mom, do you think you're going to heaven? Would it be heaven for you is I weren't there? Great, then I'm assured of going to heaven because heaven for you includes me.

Or, Mom, you've posed a binary choice between atheism your religion, but what if there's a third option? Maybe our religion is wrong, and others are right? And maybe there are serious consequences in the afterlife for worshiping the wrong religion, whereas atheism wouldn't carry such bad consequences?

There are a million ways to argue this "logic" - although you're right when you characterize it as rudimentary. That's not the asset you believe it is, though.

BTW, I am a believer.

[Anonymous]

So she isn't allowed her own views on religion until she moves out? That might just backfire on you.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Explain to her that even if she is a virulent atheist, she will not be culturally literate or able to understand modern laws, the development of our western modern justice system, cultural norms in the US, the development of universal puplic education, public works/poverty services (driven by Christians), civil rights (driven by Christians) the anti slavery movement (driven by Christians), and much of the US hospital system (created mostly by Christians, specifically Catholics) without an understanding of Christianity, Christian philosophy, Christian social teaching, and the Bible.

Atheists' main claim to fame is that they are more enlightened and focus on truths and science, unburdened by myths, rituals, and superstitions of those pesky religious people.

The answer to that is any atheist without a solid knowlege base of the Bible, Christianity, Christian history and Christian moral teachings is completely ignorant, completely unenlightened, terribly uninformed, and lacking rudimentary education.

Someone certainly has a high opinion of herself. Pride goeth before destruction, and a haughty spirit before a fall.

What is haughty about saying, okay, you are an atheist, so at least be an educated, historically literate atheist with a basic understanding of how Christianity shaped our modern western society, literature, arts, science, medicine, architecture, social services, universal education, civil rights, western intellectual inquiry and the concept of freedom and individual rights.

You can ask my 15 year old atheist, born in a non-Judeo-Christian household, and she would be able to give you quite a coherent response (the good, the bad, and the ugly) of the role of Christianity in shaping Western society. Because she's not stupid and has learned world history without sitting through some whitewashed version of Christianity she's likely to hear in a church.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Explain to her that even if she is a virulent atheist, she will not be culturally literate or able to understand modern laws, the development of our western modern justice system, cultural norms in the US, the development of universal puplic education, public works/poverty services (driven by Christians), civil rights (driven by Christians) the anti slavery movement (driven by Christians), and much of the US hospital system (created mostly by Christians, specifically Catholics) without an understanding of Christianity, Christian philosophy, Christian social teaching, and the Bible.

Atheists' main claim to fame is that they are more enlightened and focus on truths and science, unburdened by myths, rituals, and superstitions of those pesky religious people.

The answer to that is any atheist without a solid knowlege base of the Bible, Christianity, Christian history and Christian moral teachings is completely ignorant, completely unenlightened, terribly uninformed, and lacking rudimentary education.

Someone certainly has a high opinion of herself. Pride goeth before destruction, and a haughty spirit before a fall.

What is haughty about saying, okay, you are an atheist, so at least be an educated, historically literate atheist with a basic understanding of how Christianity shaped our modern western society, literature, arts, science, medicine, architecture, social services, universal education, civil rights, western intellectual inquiry and the concept of freedom and individual rights.

You can ask my 15 year old atheist, born in a non-Judeo-Christian household, and she would be able to give you quite a coherent response (the good, the bad, and the ugly) of the role of Christianity in shaping Western society. Because she's not stupid and has learned world history without sitting through some whitewashed version of Christianity she's likely to hear in a church.

Exactly. The Church isn't teaching the 15 year old how Christianity shaped the modern Western society. It IS teaching her how to be a subservient wife to her husband though.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Explain to her that even if she is a virulent atheist, she will not be culturally literate or able to understand modern laws, the development of our western modern justice system, cultural norms in the US, the development of universal puplic education, public works/poverty services (driven by Christians), civil rights (driven by Christians) the anti slavery movement (driven by Christians), and much of the US hospital system (created mostly by Christians, specifically Catholics) without an understanding of Christianity, Christian philosophy, Christian social teaching, and the Bible.

Atheists' main claim to fame is that they are more enlightened and focus on truths and science, unburdened by myths, rituals, and superstitions of those pesky religious people.

The answer to that is any atheist without a solid knowlege base of the Bible, Christianity, Christian history and Christian moral teachings is completely ignorant, completely unenlightened, terribly uninformed, and lacking rudimentary education.

Someone certainly has a high opinion of herself. Pride goeth before destruction, and a haughty spirit before a fall.

What is haughty about saying, okay, you are an atheist, so at least be an educated, historically literate atheist with a basic understanding of how Christianity shaped our modern western society, literature, arts, science, medicine, architecture, social services, universal education, civil rights, western intellectual inquiry and the concept of freedom and individual rights.

You can ask my 15 year old atheist, born in a non-Judeo-Christian household, and she would be able to give you quite a coherent response (the good, the bad, and the ugly) of the role of Christianity in shaping Western society. Because she's not stupid and has learned world history without sitting through some whitewashed version of Christianity she's likely to hear in a church.

Exactly. The Church isn't teaching the 15 year old how Christianity shaped the modern Western society. It IS teaching her how to be a subservient wife to her husband though.

THIS. I grew up in a super religious household and everything I learned about christianitys affect on history I learned from AP European history in the 10th grade.

[Anonymous]

Apologies in advance if I'm posting what others have already said.

OP, try a different approach! I'd start with an apology, recognizing verbally that your approach has not been ideal and you're trying to do better. Drop the mindset that it's non-negotiable.

After an apology, open conversation. What really bothers her? Is there any sort of compromise that works (different church, youth mass, different pastor/priest, etc.). Maybe all of these will be a no go *for now*.

Stop forcing her to go with you, but have clear boundaries. You and husband will still go, she can stay at home if she pleases. Most world religions are pretty clear on this: our heart is clear and visible to God(s)...just going through the motions due to coercion, guilt, etc. is not a good thing.

Finally, adding to this last point...maybe at this stage of her life church attendance is not the best way to build spirituality/faith. Personally, I would focus on what your religion teaches you about service to others and make that a new family focus. You can grow in your faith by working together to serve others. Have her be the one who drives this activity, within set parameters: how often, where.

The most inspirational people who practice the same faith as me are the ones that focus their energies more on living their faith through action than through church service attendance. She just might need the right inspiration, and it doesn't sound like at the moment, that will be found in the walls of a church.

Good luck, OP!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Explain to her that even if she is a virulent atheist, she will not be culturally literate or able to understand modern laws, the development of our western modern justice system, cultural norms in the US, the development of universal puplic education, public works/poverty services (driven by Christians), civil rights (driven by Christians) the anti slavery movement (driven by Christians), and much of the US hospital system (created mostly by Christians, specifically Catholics) without an understanding of Christianity, Christian philosophy, Christian social teaching, and the Bible.

Atheists' main claim to fame is that they are more enlightened and focus on truths and science, unburdened by myths, rituals, and superstitions of those pesky religious people.

The answer to that is any atheist without a solid knowlege base of the Bible, Christianity, Christian history and Christian moral teachings is completely ignorant, completely unenlightened, terribly uninformed, and lacking rudimentary education.

Someone certainly has a high opinion of herself. Pride goeth before destruction, and a haughty spirit before a fall.

What is haughty about saying, okay, you are an atheist, so at least be an educated, historically literate atheist with a basic understanding of how Christianity shaped our modern western society, literature, arts, science, medicine, architecture, social services, universal education, civil rights, western intellectual inquiry and the concept of freedom and individual rights.

You can ask my 15 year old atheist, born in a non-Judeo-Christian household, and she would be able to give you quite a coherent response (the good, the bad, and the ugly) of the role of Christianity in shaping Western society. Because she's not stupid and has learned world history without sitting through some whitewashed version of Christianity she's likely to hear in a church.

Exactly. The Church isn't teaching the 15 year old how Christianity shaped the modern Western society. It IS teaching her how to be a subservient wife to her husband though.

This just proves that Christianity is used as a tool of power and control. Why is that more important than the theology?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Explain to her that even if she is a virulent atheist, she will not be culturally literate or able to understand modern laws, the development of our western modern justice system, cultural norms in the US, the development of universal puplic education, public works/poverty services (driven by Christians), civil rights (driven by Christians) the anti slavery movement (driven by Christians), and much of the US hospital system (created mostly by Christians, specifically Catholics) without an understanding of Christianity, Christian philosophy, Christian social teaching, and the Bible.

Atheists' main claim to fame is that they are more enlightened and focus on truths and science, unburdened by myths, rituals, and superstitions of those pesky religious people.

The answer to that is any atheist without a solid knowlege base of the Bible, Christianity, Christian history and Christian moral teachings is completely ignorant, completely unenlightened, terribly uninformed, and lacking rudimentary education.

Someone certainly has a high opinion of herself. Pride goeth before destruction, and a haughty spirit before a fall.

What whitewashed version? What’s pure Christianity..

What is haughty about saying, okay, you are an atheist, so at least be an educated, historically literate atheist with a basic understanding of how Christianity shaped our modern western society, literature, arts, science, medicine, architecture, social services, universal education, civil rights, western intellectual inquiry and the concept of freedom and individual rights.

You can ask my 15 year old atheist, born in a non-Judeo-Christian household, and she would be able to give you quite a coherent response (the good, the bad, and the ugly) of the role of Christianity in shaping Western society. Because she's not stupid and has learned world history without sitting through some whitewashed version of Christianity she's likely to hear in a church.

What whitewashed version? What’s pure Christianity? Does modern USA represent whitewashed or real Christianity?