Can a narcissist ever stay married and be a good enough spouse?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If you're divorcing a narc, I'd move out and officially separate and then wait at least a year before you engage in settlement talks with them. Otherwise, you're very likely to agree to settlement terms that you'll regret once you've got some emotional distance from the narc. My sense is that people married to narcs don't realize how much their thinking is clouded by the narc and it takes time to really get a good perspective on the situation. And ideally, do a lump sum payment to the narc so that you aren't required to keep interacting with them for years and years. You need a clean break and that won't happen if they are lurking around for decades collecting your money every month. My friend divorced about two years ago and he can now see that she was controlling him during the divorce negotiations and he allowed himself to be taken advantage of by her. As I see it, he signed those papers when he wasn't in his right mind, but no court will undo it now.

Your “friend” sounds like a narcissist who regrets giving their ex the money they deserve from their lifetime together.

Prob her current boyfriend.

Hook, line & sinker. Gulp!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Same. I thought I could just power through, but eventually his behavior got so bad that I couldn't stay quiet. The confrontation led to a hell I could have never anticipated. Truly a very dark time. He turned on me then and it was like I was a stranger... We'd been together for 25 years and here I was, like a stranger that he hated and had zero relationship with.

Everyone else thinks he's a great guy. They have no idea. I don't think you can understand until you've lived it. It's awful.

Yes, the same happened to me and them turning into a stranger is exactly how it feels. And finding out that they’ve always been that person deep down is terrifying and made me question everything I knew about myself and life.

My STBX truly hates me, but when I am rational these days (which is rare- getting divorced from someone like this is extraordinarily taxing physically, mentally and emotionally), I can see that I have nothing to do with his hatred. He hates himself and he hates the shame he feels about his shortcomings, some of which are just the normal imperfections of being human and some of which were nurtured by his family of origin, and he is desperate to put it on anyone else.

Yes! The hatred is directed outwardly at us. It's helped a lot to understand that even though my stbx despises everything about me now (I mean wtf...he was sending loving texts right up to the day before he did an absolute 180....) he hates himself the most. I don't think he'll ever be able to face himself. Sometimes I feel sorry for him that he is so deeply broken. But then he lobs another grenade. Sorry you're going through it, too. Working in therapy to understand why I was drawn to him has helped a lot.

Curious why your therapist thinks you were drawn to him?


Mine said because I’m an empath, give the benefit of the doubt too long, and am high functioning type A.

In my case the narc is asd and bipolar II and it was his maladaptive coping walls that made him a narc.
His mother also allowed him to be “stubborn” (understatement!) and do whatever he wanted, or else he’d be difficult and mean. He continues that behavior. She raised a monster. Throws a fit to get what he wants, easier on other person to be silent. While walking on eggshells BS. He loves for you to shut up and take it.

Not the PP you replied to, but I've been trying to figure this out (and maybe I'm in the wrong type of therapy because we aren't figuring that out). But you do describe some of my key characteristics here, and I think I honestly discounted some of the stuff he would say (usually about work, or other people in our social circle) as him just venting/expressing frustration because no one could actually be that stupid to truly think some of the things. (And I've said a lot of nonsensical things of my own when frustrated that aren't what I really think).

Spoiler: he really was that stupid and simple minded. I was attributing the vast human experience of emotions, but he was vapid and dumb.

[Anonymous]

For me he was from a different country, so I chalked up his idiot judgement as cultural things for too long. Then too much work. Then he got a neuropsych test his behavior and habits were so off. Then I got targeted therapy for dealing with an AS/NT relationship, an 1 kid inherited it.
Kid also copied his temper tantrums and DARVO. Nothing is ever the narcs fault.
Now he’s just a continued work addict, screen addict, and throws his money pricey dates and trips. Still pretending he’s normal. In small bouts.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Reading these messages -- I'm terribly sorry for all who are going through this, but I'm also grateful to find that I am not alone. What I am reading mirrors what I am experiencing, and it is hell on earth.

A couple posters have mentioned therapy/therapists. Is there any posters in NOVA who can recommend a good therapist for this, especially in the case of a going-nowhere divorce from a narc?

Thank you.

Wish I had a rec for you.

Unfortunately it seems that many professionals are not only skeptical of the covert narcissist type but even unaware or vulnerable to their tactics. I came out of an attempt to seek help being told that I needed to adapt my expectations and communication style and that I wasn’t being sufficiently accommodating of my STBX’s different learning style. It set me back many years and was in its own way something that compounded the abuse I experienced.

I want to also add that if you anticipate a contentious divorce or custody fight, your spouse can and will use both your own therapy and their therapy against you.

Would a narcissist be able to use content from these therapies or just the fact of being in therapy? Are therapists ever brought into court to make a statement?

This is complicated and probably very specific. Regarding court, we have only been able to subpoena frequency and existence of visits and a psychological diagnosis from other providers.

How my STBX used therapy:

-secretly went to therapy and shared what appears to be a very distorted/edited history of our shared life. Maybe with some kind of manipulative future plans but more likely just to get validation and supply
-used the fact that he went to therapy to show during the custody evaluation that he was in touch with his feelings and “doing the work”
-I refused therapy when he begged for couples counseling the day he filed for divorce; he is trying to use this against me (but I still feel strongly that you do not go to therapy with a person like this)
-used the vocabulary and therapeutic language he picked up from his therapy first to manipulate me during our marriage and then to manipulate psychological testing and conversations with the custody evaluator

Basically someone with this level of disorder is going to use anything in their favor and against the healthy person. You have to remember that they’ve made it through decades of their lives using people and situations to their advantage, and with very little concern for the gap between their made-up version of events vs. the truth.

I am so sorry this happened to you, PP. Yes, true narcissists can be very skilled at using the framework of therapy to their own ends. I have thankfully never been married to a narcissist but worked for one and this is exactly what she would do -- used the language of therapy and her own background in therapy to manipulate situations to her benefit, portray others as simply "unevolved" or over-emotional, or dictate how a scenario was described or portrayed after the fact. I would never go into couples therapy with someone like this. They are scary.

[Anonymous]

I thought this thread would be about NARCs who've managed to stay married and how they managed to be "good enough." Instead, it is a bunch of women self-identifying their spouses. No problem, but I would like to hear from more NARCs (female or male /diagnosed or self-diagnosed) who've stayed married.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I thought this thread would be about NARCs who've managed to stay married and how they managed to be "good enough." Instead, it is a bunch of women self-identifying their spouses. No problem, but I would like to hear from more NARCs (female or male /diagnosed or self-diagnosed) who've stayed married.

Seems like the takeaway is they (the married narc) get written off entirely or divorced or the target victim stays in the dog for decades of abuse (and wouldn’t be self identifying the issue, they’re too isolated, alone and destabilized to figure it out).
So the answer is NO, they do not make good marital partners.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I thought this thread would be about NARCs who've managed to stay married and how they managed to be "good enough." Instead, it is a bunch of women self-identifying their spouses. No problem, but I would like to hear from more NARCs (female or male /diagnosed or self-diagnosed) who've stayed married.

Never met a narc who thought they were a narc. That’d be too hypocritical.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The other poster got me wondering…

Anyone out there who is married to a narcissist and doing well?

There are many levels of narcissism so depends. Also depends on who you are and what your relationship's strengths and weaknesses are. Life's struggles matter as well.

[Anonymous]

I've never met anyone who admits to being a narcissist themselves. How come there aren't more couples of narcissists around? How come only the person you are talking too is the one dealing with a narcissist?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I stayed 25 years. There were good times and bad times and I sucked it up thinking it was better than what he would do to me if I left. When I finally left I can only say I’m glad I “stayed for the kids”. I now see what he’s capable of and it’s terrible. He would have hurt the kids just to hurt me. He’s doing it now but at least they are adults and can get away.

This is what I think will happen if I leave. My kids are 4 and 6, and one has special needs. At some point he may choose to leave/file, but it feels like I need to do everything I can to be with my kids everyday, which means staying and trying to make things palatable to him. Exhausting and stressful in every way.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There are several types of narcissism, and I think you can live with people who have the neurotic (shy) kind - the ones who are not grandiose, don't seek drama or attention but are really insecure and feel a serious lack of confidence. It's not typically recognized as narcissism, but it's officially a form of the diagnosis.

I know several people living with that kind, and they're usually not too hard to live with. They need lots of reassurances.

Actually that is a true form of narcissism and much more dangerous to be in a relationship with than more obvious grandiose types. It’s called covert narcissism. And yes, from the outside they look meek or insecure or innocuous. On the inside it’s terrifying, because the second you take your foot of the gas of building them up and putting them on a pedestal and telling them they’re the best, they will turn on you.

Here’s a quick description:

“ A covert narcissist (also known as vulnerable narcissist) falls into a narcissistic personality disorder subtype that combines traits like self-centeredness and manipulative behavior with an introverted demeanor. Because covert narcissists seem so reserved or even modest, it can be easy to overlook their more problematic traits.”

https://www.helpguide.org/mental-health/personality-disorders/covert-narcissism

God. This x 1000000. When I confronted my mild-mannered, quiet husband about his affair, I could not have imagined the hell that he then unleashed. It was terrifying and absolutely rattled me until a psychiatric nurse, friend of a friend, heard my story and suggested I read about covert narcissism. Putting a name to the behavior and personality traits has been really helpful in trying to navigate this divorce. As has therapy with someone who understands this kind of NPD. Once he was unmasked he decided he was out for blood. I'm still fielding questions from people who knew him who know how he has behaved since he initiated the divorce because they don't understand how such a "good guy" could have become so unhinged. I don't feel I owe anyone an explanation but he has strewn wreckage far and wide. All those years he was just sitting quietly in the corner, taking notes, seething. I ignored the red flags. That's on me. But in hindsight OMG they were there.

If I’m in a situation that fits your description, as he sits back quietly, his rage and resentment ongoing and building, what can I expect in divorce with young kids.

[Anonymous]

My father was a narcissist and he treated all of his children like objects, possessions. No actual interest in our lives, just kind of collecting our accomplishments so he could brag and take credit for them. He played favorites and pitted us against one another. He could hold a grudge like nobody's business -- for years. Made it clear he didn't like my spouse, never bothered to learn to pronounce his (non-WASP) name correctly. Never learned to say my children's names correctly.

The reason I am sharing this is whatever kind of peace my mom made with the situation in her marriage, he hurt her kids. We literally had no experience of what it was like to have a normal father who wasn't "prickly", fragile. He was the kind of guy that you needed to rehearse every conversation you were going to have with him in your head in order to identify potential landmines. We were on edge for all of life's milestones -- graduations, etc. because we never knew what would set him off.

If there are kids involved, then the narc's effects are not going to be just on the spouse.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There are several types of narcissism, and I think you can live with people who have the neurotic (shy) kind - the ones who are not grandiose, don't seek drama or attention but are really insecure and feel a serious lack of confidence. It's not typically recognized as narcissism, but it's officially a form of the diagnosis.

I know several people living with that kind, and they're usually not too hard to live with. They need lots of reassurances.

Actually that is a true form of narcissism and much more dangerous to be in a relationship with than more obvious grandiose types. It’s called covert narcissism. And yes, from the outside they look meek or insecure or innocuous. On the inside it’s terrifying, because the second you take your foot of the gas of building them up and putting them on a pedestal and telling them they’re the best, they will turn on you.

Here’s a quick description:

“ A covert narcissist (also known as vulnerable narcissist) falls into a narcissistic personality disorder subtype that combines traits like self-centeredness and manipulative behavior with an introverted demeanor. Because covert narcissists seem so reserved or even modest, it can be easy to overlook their more problematic traits.”

https://www.helpguide.org/mental-health/personality-disorders/covert-narcissism

God. This x 1000000. When I confronted my mild-mannered, quiet husband about his affair, I could not have imagined the hell that he then unleashed. It was terrifying and absolutely rattled me until a psychiatric nurse, friend of a friend, heard my story and suggested I read about covert narcissism. Putting a name to the behavior and personality traits has been really helpful in trying to navigate this divorce. As has therapy with someone who understands this kind of NPD. Once he was unmasked he decided he was out for blood. I'm still fielding questions from people who knew him who know how he has behaved since he initiated the divorce because they don't understand how such a "good guy" could have become so unhinged. I don't feel I owe anyone an explanation but he has strewn wreckage far and wide. All those years he was just sitting quietly in the corner, taking notes, seething. I ignored the red flags. That's on me. But in hindsight OMG they were there.

If I’m in a situation that fits your description, as he sits back quietly, his rage and resentment ongoing and building, what can I expect in divorce with young kids.

You can expect the fight of your life to keep your kids/keep them in your life and a horrifically expensive divorce. This type typically refuses to mediate. I am minorly grateful that my marriage didn't implode when the kids were young, as awful as it was. What you should do, IMO: start making a long term exit plan. Build your career. Squirrel money away. Get therapy from someone who understands what it is like to be married to a covert narcissist. I let my career slide. I also lost myself in alcohol in the final decade of my marriage which I don't advise either. Educate yourself and work on building a foundation for yourself so you can leave him once your kids are older. But also understand that the decision to leave may not ultimately be yours and he could pull the rug from under you. It is truly THE worst personality type to divorce. They want vengeance and they don't care if the kids are pawns. He has alienated my adult kids from me which is incredibly painful but I have to ride this out. I'm not putting them in the middle and they don't live with either of us. Going through this with younger kids I think I may have only seen one way out, and I don't recommend that either. It's a living nightmare.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Same. I thought I could just power through, but eventually his behavior got so bad that I couldn't stay quiet. The confrontation led to a hell I could have never anticipated. Truly a very dark time. He turned on me then and it was like I was a stranger... We'd been together for 25 years and here I was, like a stranger that he hated and had zero relationship with.

Everyone else thinks he's a great guy. They have no idea. I don't think you can understand until you've lived it. It's awful.

Yes, the same happened to me and them turning into a stranger is exactly how it feels. And finding out that they’ve always been that person deep down is terrifying and made me question everything I knew about myself and life.

My STBX truly hates me, but when I am rational these days (which is rare- getting divorced from someone like this is extraordinarily taxing physically, mentally and emotionally), I can see that I have nothing to do with his hatred. He hates himself and he hates the shame he feels about his shortcomings, some of which are just the normal imperfections of being human and some of which were nurtured by his family of origin, and he is desperate to put it on anyone else.

Yes! The hatred is directed outwardly at us. It's helped a lot to understand that even though my stbx despises everything about me now (I mean wtf...he was sending loving texts right up to the day before he did an absolute 180....) he hates himself the most. I don't think he'll ever be able to face himself. Sometimes I feel sorry for him that he is so deeply broken. But then he lobs another grenade. Sorry you're going through it, too. Working in therapy to understand why I was drawn to him has helped a lot.

For me, it’s this: finding out that they’ve always been that person deep down is terrifying and made me question everything I knew about myself and life.

And it happened, literally, the day our son was born. Before that, we had (at least I (and everyone else) thought) a happy marriage. People would ask me what our secret was for being in such a great relationship.

How will I ever trust myself again?