Toxic Masculinity

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How do you define “toxic masculinity”?

The term “toxic masculinity” points to a particular version of masculinity that is unhealthy for the men and boys who conform to it, and harmful for those around them.

The phrase emphasises the worst aspects of stereotypically masculine attributes. Toxic masculinity is represented by qualities such as violence, dominance, emotional illiteracy, sexual entitlement, and hostility to femininity.

Funny, because it seems to me that it is mostly women who are “hostile to femininity” and fear any recognition that there are differences between the sexes.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Teach your daughters to be strong and independent , not people pleasers.

Don’t encourage them to “lure” men, or value their appearance over other assets that they possess. It is essential that they have good self esteem, and a sense of self. They need not fuss over hair, nails or outfits any more than your sons do. All your kids should be happy and active, and encouraged to pursue an education that will allow them support themselves financially.

So, the solution to toxic masculinity is to teach daughters how to behave? Okaaay.

No, OP had asked a new question later in the post. Your should keep up.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here. Thanks everyone for chiming in. A thought that came to mind is, how do raise girls to interrupt toxic masculinity?

I’m repeating what other PPs have said, but want to emphasize that brining girls into it is itself is promoting toxic masculinity. The idea that men aren’t responsible for their behavior and women should be the ones to fix it is at the root of the problem.

I’ve seen this in schools and in co-ed activities starting at an early age. Whether it’s in preschool, elementary, or middle school, male misbehavior that impacts females is made the girls’ problem. The girls are supposed to report it. The girls are supposed to “separate themselves”. The girls are supposed to asset themselves. The girls are supposed to engage in mediation or restorative justice. From the age of 2-3, boys are taught by others that girls and adults will bend over backwards to accommodate boys’ misbehavior and “social-emotional growth”. No wonder many develop a sense of impunity and privilege.

This is completely untrue. Nothing about this post is accurate at all.

Sorry that you find the reality of my experience so upsetting that you have to post a comment just to say it can’t possibly be true.

That’s one of the hurdles in addressing toxic masculinity and misogyny: people who are so uncomfortable with the fact that it exists and might exist within their gender or the gender of their child that they have to run around in loud denial.

A more constructive response would be: “wow, I’ve never experienced this and it’s opened my eyes to other people’s experience and made me rethink my narrow existence”.

I will say a lot if colleges have programs to prevent sexual assault that mostly consist of things females should do: stay sober, stay with your friends, make your own drinks, etc.

Those tips may be wise, but they do not focus on the predators.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I still feel there is value in educating girls to recognize and avoid men who display the telltale signs of toxic masculinity.

Nevertheless, the onus is clearly on men to change/alter/correct their behaviors. Western culture defines specific characteristics to fit the patriarchal ideal masculine construct. The socialization of masculine ideals starts in boys’ at a young age and defines ideal masculinity as related to toughness, stoicism, heterosexism, self-sufficient attitudes and lack of emotional sensitivity and of connectedness. Boys learn to be men from the men in their lives, from their own experiences navigating our social norms, and from the large social and cultural context. Boys live under intensified pressure to display so-called gender-appropriate behaviors according to an anachronistic ideal male code.

Looking at the development of aggression throughout childhood, we know that not only do aggressive behaviors can emerge at an early age, they also tend to persist over time, without early prevention intervention. The socialization of the male characteristics mentioned above also onsets at an early age making it a prime time-period for prevention intervention.

What specific parenting techniques can we turn employ, to thwart toxic masculinity?

But you think girls / people can tell the difference between being a strong protective male and being a toxic male. There pinkies the problem.

Women will be blamed for not being clairvoyant and knowing because Larlo was an “athlete” or “hunted” or “had 2 divorced parents and watched a lot of football” or did “MMA” of course he 30 years later would smack her in an argument or cheat. “So many red flags” and… it’s bullshit. The red flag/green flag BS is gaslighting young women into believing they can predict future behavior. You can’t.

On the most basic of levels, I think we can all agree: if a man hunts animals or watches MMA, both are huge, obvious, red-flags.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I still feel there is value in educating girls to recognize and avoid men who display the telltale signs of toxic masculinity.

Nevertheless, the onus is clearly on men to change/alter/correct their behaviors. Western culture defines specific characteristics to fit the patriarchal ideal masculine construct. The socialization of masculine ideals starts in boys’ at a young age and defines ideal masculinity as related to toughness, stoicism, heterosexism, self-sufficient attitudes and lack of emotional sensitivity and of connectedness. Boys learn to be men from the men in their lives, from their own experiences navigating our social norms, and from the large social and cultural context. Boys live under intensified pressure to display so-called gender-appropriate behaviors according to an anachronistic ideal male code.

Looking at the development of aggression throughout childhood, we know that not only do aggressive behaviors can emerge at an early age, they also tend to persist over time, without early prevention intervention. The socialization of the male characteristics mentioned above also onsets at an early age making it a prime time-period for prevention intervention.

What specific parenting techniques can we turn employ, to thwart toxic masculinity?

But you think girls / people can tell the difference between being a strong protective male and being a toxic male. There pinkies the problem.

Women will be blamed for not being clairvoyant and knowing because Larlo was an “athlete” or “hunted” or “had 2 divorced parents and watched a lot of football” or did “MMA” of course he 30 years later would smack her in an argument or cheat. “So many red flags” and… it’s bullshit. The red flag/green flag BS is gaslighting young women into believing they can predict future behavior. You can’t.

On the most basic of levels, I think we can all agree: if a man hunts animals or watches MMA, both are huge, obvious, red-flags.

I would go a step further and say non-vegetarian men are showing us a red flag for them very likely having toxic masculinity.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here. Thanks everyone for chiming in. A thought that came to mind is, how do raise girls to interrupt toxic masculinity?

I’m repeating what other PPs have said, but want to emphasize that brining girls into it is itself is promoting toxic masculinity. The idea that men aren’t responsible for their behavior and women should be the ones to fix it is at the root of the problem.

I’ve seen this in schools and in co-ed activities starting at an early age. Whether it’s in preschool, elementary, or middle school, male misbehavior that impacts females is made the girls’ problem. The girls are supposed to report it. The girls are supposed to “separate themselves”. The girls are supposed to asset themselves. The girls are supposed to engage in mediation or restorative justice. From the age of 2-3, boys are taught by others that girls and adults will bend over backwards to accommodate boys’ misbehavior and “social-emotional growth”. No wonder many develop a sense of impunity and privilege.

This is completely untrue. Nothing about this post is accurate at all.

Sorry that you find the reality of my experience so upsetting that you have to post a comment just to say it can’t possibly be true.

That’s one of the hurdles in addressing toxic masculinity and misogyny: people who are so uncomfortable with the fact that it exists and might exist within their gender or the gender of their child that they have to run around in loud denial.

A more constructive response would be: “wow, I’ve never experienced this and it’s opened my eyes to other people’s experience and made me rethink my narrow existence”.

I will say a lot if colleges have programs to prevent sexual assault that mostly consist of things females should do: stay sober, stay with your friends, make your own drinks, etc.

Those tips may be wise, but they do not focus on the predators.

That’s because the kind of men who rape women (in this country at least) aren’t doing it simply because no one ever educated them that they shouldn’t do that. Women need to stop being stupid and learn to protect themselves and teach their daughters to protect themselves. Because there are predators out there and they don’t give a rat’s @$$ about toxic masculinity.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I still feel there is value in educating girls to recognize and avoid men who display the telltale signs of toxic masculinity.

Nevertheless, the onus is clearly on men to change/alter/correct their behaviors. Western culture defines specific characteristics to fit the patriarchal ideal masculine construct. The socialization of masculine ideals starts in boys’ at a young age and defines ideal masculinity as related to toughness, stoicism, heterosexism, self-sufficient attitudes and lack of emotional sensitivity and of connectedness. Boys learn to be men from the men in their lives, from their own experiences navigating our social norms, and from the large social and cultural context. Boys live under intensified pressure to display so-called gender-appropriate behaviors according to an anachronistic ideal male code.

Looking at the development of aggression throughout childhood, we know that not only do aggressive behaviors can emerge at an early age, they also tend to persist over time, without early prevention intervention. The socialization of the male characteristics mentioned above also onsets at an early age making it a prime time-period for prevention intervention.

What specific parenting techniques can we turn employ, to thwart toxic masculinity?

But you think girls / people can tell the difference between being a strong protective male and being a toxic male. There pinkies the problem.

Women will be blamed for not being clairvoyant and knowing because Larlo was an “athlete” or “hunted” or “had 2 divorced parents and watched a lot of football” or did “MMA” of course he 30 years later would smack her in an argument or cheat. “So many red flags” and… it’s bullshit. The red flag/green flag BS is gaslighting young women into believing they can predict future behavior. You can’t.

What? Of course you can. Not with 100% certainty, obviously, but you can generate a decent mental model that will be accurate most of the time.

Do you invest your money? Do you check the weather forecast before you head out for the day? Of course you do, even though you accept that sometimes you end up bringing your umbrella out with you for nothing.

[Anonymous]

I honestly think the biggest “tell” when it comes to toxic masculinity is changing diapers. Toxic men absolutely will not do it under any circumstances. They feel it is beneath them. So if your husband changes his share of diapers without any cajoling, then you probably won’t need to worry about toxic masculinity in any other area.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I honestly think the biggest “tell” when it comes to toxic masculinity is changing diapers. Toxic men absolutely will not do it under any circumstances. They feel it is beneath them. So if your husband changes his share of diapers without any cajoling, then you probably won’t need to worry about toxic masculinity in any other area.

I’m going to guess this type of father isn’t in the picture whatsoever anyway. This isn’t going to be some big revelation that becomes obvious after a baby is born.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The real problem is toxic feminism.

Cat Ladies Unite!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I honestly think the biggest “tell” when it comes to toxic masculinity is changing diapers. Toxic men absolutely will not do it under any circumstances. They feel it is beneath them. So if your husband changes his share of diapers without any cajoling, then you probably won’t need to worry about toxic masculinity in any other area.

I’m going to guess this type of father isn’t in the picture whatsoever anyway. This isn’t going to be some big revelation that becomes obvious after a baby is born.

Your are right. The toxic masculinity fathers are those who bring round a box of diapers to their baby mommas rather than provide financial support for them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I honestly think the biggest “tell” when it comes to toxic masculinity is changing diapers. Toxic men absolutely will not do it under any circumstances. They feel it is beneath them. So if your husband changes his share of diapers without any cajoling, then you probably won’t need to worry about toxic masculinity in any other area.

It’s not the only tell though. And it’s a kinda subtle one to bring up, plus women would t see this trait until too late to flee.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here. Thanks everyone for chiming in. A thought that came to mind is, how do raise girls to interrupt toxic masculinity?

I’m repeating what other PPs have said, but want to emphasize that brining girls into it is itself is promoting toxic masculinity. The idea that men aren’t responsible for their behavior and women should be the ones to fix it is at the root of the problem.

I’ve seen this in schools and in co-ed activities starting at an early age. Whether it’s in preschool, elementary, or middle school, male misbehavior that impacts females is made the girls’ problem. The girls are supposed to report it. The girls are supposed to “separate themselves”. The girls are supposed to asset themselves. The girls are supposed to engage in mediation or restorative justice. From the age of 2-3, boys are taught by others that girls and adults will bend over backwards to accommodate boys’ misbehavior and “social-emotional growth”. No wonder many develop a sense of impunity and privilege.

This is completely untrue. Nothing about this post is accurate at all.

Sorry that you find the reality of my experience so upsetting that you have to post a comment just to say it can’t possibly be true.

That’s one of the hurdles in addressing toxic masculinity and misogyny: people who are so uncomfortable with the fact that it exists and might exist within their gender or the gender of their child that they have to run around in loud denial.

A more constructive response would be: “wow, I’ve never experienced this and it’s opened my eyes to other people’s experience and made me rethink my narrow existence”.

I will say a lot if colleges have programs to prevent sexual assault that mostly consist of things females should do: stay sober, stay with your friends, make your own drinks, etc.

Those tips may be wise, but they do not focus on the predators.

That’s because the kind of men who rape women (in this country at least) aren’t doing it simply because no one ever educated them that they shouldn’t do that. Women need to stop being stupid and learn to protect themselves and teach their daughters to protect themselves. Because there are predators out there and they don’t give a rat’s @$$ about toxic masculinity.

This response is only speaking to the boys raised in America. For international student boys, many of them do not know this is not the correct way to treat women.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I feel conservative women do a lot to enforce it too, frankly. They often judge men for being insufficiently "manly."

Well, when they need tampons…

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Toxic behavior from ANY gender means the inability to control one’s emotions. Overly aggressive behavior like physical or verbal intimidation when the situation does not call for it, being a jerk because you can, entitled behavior regarding sex, attention, money, affection, manipulation of someone’s emotions, violence in the form of hitting, pushing, shoving, throwing things, damaging property etc., crying or threatening to harm oneself to get one’s way.

As you can see I don’t believe in toxic male behavior, I believe in toxic behaviors. Being strong, assertive, aggressive in certain situations like sports/business, not being a pushover, and showing mental toughness are great traits for all genders.

With all due respect, this thread is about toxic masculinity.

Do better.

I am doing better, as someone raising both sexes I refuse to let them buy into social constructs of any type or to let the world convince them that toxicity is somehow gender based.

Who carries out most rapes? Homicides? Sexual harassment? Wars?

Who are more likely to abandon their children? Domestic violence?

The answer is nowhere near 50/50. Around the globe.

Sorry, your line sounds good, but it absolutely does not match objective reality.

Herein lies the problem you are equating “toxic masculinity” akin to rape and violence. This goes a disservice to both genders as we are now seeing clear evidence that these bad behaviors are not exclusive to men. The real problem is that women were taught to be submissive, to not show strength to put someone else’s needs above their own. That their bodies and what they do with them is somehow a subject for debate. Framing this in the lens of toxic masculinity does a disservice to real core of the problem. Therefore my point stands, I teach all my children about toxic traits, how to avoid them, stand up for themselves, be assertive, strong, and not let anyone dictate who they are or how they should behave based on their gender.