Question about Messianic Judaism

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s not true. They feel extra persecuted because they’re Christians who claim they’re Jewish and they don’t understand why Jews find that obnoxious and offensive.

This sounds anti-semitic. Who gets to decide who is Jewish?

Well... Jewish law has a lot of discussion about this actually. Jews get to decide who is Jewish, and Christian missionary groups that try to offer "Messianic Judaism" as a culturally sensitive way to become Christian are, in fact, antisemitic.

The Jews they are able to convert to this everything bagel-scented Christianity had weak Jewish affiliations to begin with or have psychological problems.

They see themselves as Jewish, so if you agree that Jews get to decide, then they’ve decided they’re Jews, right? You repeatedly trying to just write them off as psychologically disturbed says more about you than about them.

Jews have rules and courts where rules get decided. People don't get to just declare themselves Jewish. By definition, people who accept Jesus as the Messiah are Christians, and Christians are, by definition, not Jews.

NP. I'm curious, where and who are these courts? I can see a problem with a Messianic Jew showing up at a synagogue and proclaiming himself Jewish in front of the presiding rabbi. But control over the designation would seem to be in the hands of a group that calls itself Jewish, no? There's no Jewish pope, is there? Is there a structure like bishops?

Also, Jesus, his 12 disciples, Paul, and many others considered themselves Jewish even as they promulgated Jesus' message.

Anyone can call themselves Jewish because unlike other religions, Jews are not going to try to kill them for blasphemy. But everyone who is acting in good faith knows that someone who professes that Jesus is the Messiah is … Christian, not Jewish.

Again, who gets to decide? Who are these "everyone who is acting in good faith" who decide that some people are Jewish and others aren't?

Who gets to decide? Jews. There are rabbinical courts in Jewish communities that oversee/decide on matters of halacha (including conversions to Judaism, marriage and divorce, etc). While someone's Jewishness can't be revoked or invalidated, a Jew who rejects Judaism is an apostate. While they would be welcome to return to Judaism someday, nobody in the Jewish community is entertaining the idea that an apostate is still part of the Jewish community while they're over on the side worshipping Jesus as their Lord and Savior.

In the case of Messianic "rabbis," they shouldn't call themselves that without being ordained by a Jewish institution - there are many rabbinical schools and rabbinic councils. Ordination can be revoked for a bunch of reasons (depending on the rules of the specific council/body), including proselytizing about Jesus. If a Messianic "rabbi" was ordained outside of a Jewish movement (and no Jewish movement is going to ordain someone who professes faith in Jesus as the messiah), then they shouldn't be using the title "rabbi." That would be like me going to art school and then putting M.D. on the end of my name and trying to practice medicine.

Maybe it’s time for all religions to modernize and get with the times. The ancient rules and traditions from thousands of years ago don’t necessarily apply or fit in our modern culture and world. Especially since it seems like a lot of Jewish people are atheists and don’t even believe in God, why all the rules?

In what ways should Judaism (and "all religions") modernize? I'm a Conservative (denomination, not politics) Jew living without much problem in the modern, secular US. If your vision of "modernization" really just means throwing out traditions and basic tenets of our faith (like the fact that worshipping Jesus isn't compatible with Jewish theology), then I wholeheartedly reject that.

Not believing in God is compatible with Jewish theology, so why is belief in Jesus not compatible? At least the Jewish people who believe in JC believe in God.

are you this dumb in real life, or just the internet? maybe Muslims can just start believing Jesus was actually the prophet and not Muhhamed.

So Jewish people who don’t believe in God are perfectly acceptable- but the Jewish people who believe in JC are the bad people who are destroying Judaism? How does that make any sense at all?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s not true. They feel extra persecuted because they’re Christians who claim they’re Jewish and they don’t understand why Jews find that obnoxious and offensive.

This sounds anti-semitic. Who gets to decide who is Jewish?

Well... Jewish law has a lot of discussion about this actually. Jews get to decide who is Jewish, and Christian missionary groups that try to offer "Messianic Judaism" as a culturally sensitive way to become Christian are, in fact, antisemitic.

The Jews they are able to convert to this everything bagel-scented Christianity had weak Jewish affiliations to begin with or have psychological problems.

They see themselves as Jewish, so if you agree that Jews get to decide, then they’ve decided they’re Jews, right? You repeatedly trying to just write them off as psychologically disturbed says more about you than about them.

Jews have rules and courts where rules get decided. People don't get to just declare themselves Jewish. By definition, people who accept Jesus as the Messiah are Christians, and Christians are, by definition, not Jews.

NP. I'm curious, where and who are these courts? I can see a problem with a Messianic Jew showing up at a synagogue and proclaiming himself Jewish in front of the presiding rabbi. But control over the designation would seem to be in the hands of a group that calls itself Jewish, no? There's no Jewish pope, is there? Is there a structure like bishops?

Also, Jesus, his 12 disciples, Paul, and many others considered themselves Jewish even as they promulgated Jesus' message.

Anyone can call themselves Jewish because unlike other religions, Jews are not going to try to kill them for blasphemy. But everyone who is acting in good faith knows that someone who professes that Jesus is the Messiah is … Christian, not Jewish.

Again, who gets to decide? Who are these "everyone who is acting in good faith" who decide that some people are Jewish and others aren't?

Who gets to decide? Jews. There are rabbinical courts in Jewish communities that oversee/decide on matters of halacha (including conversions to Judaism, marriage and divorce, etc). While someone's Jewishness can't be revoked or invalidated, a Jew who rejects Judaism is an apostate. While they would be welcome to return to Judaism someday, nobody in the Jewish community is entertaining the idea that an apostate is still part of the Jewish community while they're over on the side worshipping Jesus as their Lord and Savior.

In the case of Messianic "rabbis," they shouldn't call themselves that without being ordained by a Jewish institution - there are many rabbinical schools and rabbinic councils. Ordination can be revoked for a bunch of reasons (depending on the rules of the specific council/body), including proselytizing about Jesus. If a Messianic "rabbi" was ordained outside of a Jewish movement (and no Jewish movement is going to ordain someone who professes faith in Jesus as the messiah), then they shouldn't be using the title "rabbi." That would be like me going to art school and then putting M.D. on the end of my name and trying to practice medicine.

Maybe it’s time for all religions to modernize and get with the times. The ancient rules and traditions from thousands of years ago don’t necessarily apply or fit in our modern culture and world. Especially since it seems like a lot of Jewish people are atheists and don’t even believe in God, why all the rules?

Jews have always been part of a counterculture in our exile. Most of us are fine with that. The ones who are not and feel the need for higher degrees of assimilation will no longer be Jewish in a generation or two.

The rules keep our civilization alive from generation to generation across millenia of dispersion around the world. That's literally our charge: from generation to generation. You won't understand, but we have a completely different conception of time, memory, and community.

This is a strange thread. So Jewish people are different from all other people, and different rules apply to Jewish people vs all other people in the world?

Ummm that is kind of the definition of a religion? Yes Jews are different from non-Jews, and yes they follow their own rules.

So religious people in America are allowed to follow different rules from all other Americans based on what their religion teaches them?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s not true. They feel extra persecuted because they’re Christians who claim they’re Jewish and they don’t understand why Jews find that obnoxious and offensive.

This sounds anti-semitic. Who gets to decide who is Jewish?

Well... Jewish law has a lot of discussion about this actually. Jews get to decide who is Jewish, and Christian missionary groups that try to offer "Messianic Judaism" as a culturally sensitive way to become Christian are, in fact, antisemitic.

The Jews they are able to convert to this everything bagel-scented Christianity had weak Jewish affiliations to begin with or have psychological problems.

They see themselves as Jewish, so if you agree that Jews get to decide, then they’ve decided they’re Jews, right? You repeatedly trying to just write them off as psychologically disturbed says more about you than about them.

Jews have rules and courts where rules get decided. People don't get to just declare themselves Jewish. By definition, people who accept Jesus as the Messiah are Christians, and Christians are, by definition, not Jews.

NP. I'm curious, where and who are these courts? I can see a problem with a Messianic Jew showing up at a synagogue and proclaiming himself Jewish in front of the presiding rabbi. But control over the designation would seem to be in the hands of a group that calls itself Jewish, no? There's no Jewish pope, is there? Is there a structure like bishops?

Also, Jesus, his 12 disciples, Paul, and many others considered themselves Jewish even as they promulgated Jesus' message.

Anyone can call themselves Jewish because unlike other religions, Jews are not going to try to kill them for blasphemy. But everyone who is acting in good faith knows that someone who professes that Jesus is the Messiah is … Christian, not Jewish.

Again, who gets to decide? Who are these "everyone who is acting in good faith" who decide that some people are Jewish and others aren't?

Who gets to decide? Jews. There are rabbinical courts in Jewish communities that oversee/decide on matters of halacha (including conversions to Judaism, marriage and divorce, etc). While someone's Jewishness can't be revoked or invalidated, a Jew who rejects Judaism is an apostate. While they would be welcome to return to Judaism someday, nobody in the Jewish community is entertaining the idea that an apostate is still part of the Jewish community while they're over on the side worshipping Jesus as their Lord and Savior.

In the case of Messianic "rabbis," they shouldn't call themselves that without being ordained by a Jewish institution - there are many rabbinical schools and rabbinic councils. Ordination can be revoked for a bunch of reasons (depending on the rules of the specific council/body), including proselytizing about Jesus. If a Messianic "rabbi" was ordained outside of a Jewish movement (and no Jewish movement is going to ordain someone who professes faith in Jesus as the messiah), then they shouldn't be using the title "rabbi." That would be like me going to art school and then putting M.D. on the end of my name and trying to practice medicine.

Maybe it’s time for all religions to modernize and get with the times. The ancient rules and traditions from thousands of years ago don’t necessarily apply or fit in our modern culture and world. Especially since it seems like a lot of Jewish people are atheists and don’t even believe in God, why all the rules?

In what ways should Judaism (and "all religions") modernize? I'm a Conservative (denomination, not politics) Jew living without much problem in the modern, secular US. If your vision of "modernization" really just means throwing out traditions and basic tenets of our faith (like the fact that worshipping Jesus isn't compatible with Jewish theology), then I wholeheartedly reject that.

Not believing in God is compatible with Jewish theology, so why is belief in Jesus not compatible? At least the Jewish people who believe in JC believe in God.

are you this dumb in real life, or just the internet? maybe Muslims can just start believing Jesus was actually the prophet and not Muhhamed.

So Jewish people who don’t believe in God are perfectly acceptable- but the Jewish people who believe in JC are the bad people who are destroying Judaism? How does that make any sense at all?

I guess you ARE this stupid in real life.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s not true. They feel extra persecuted because they’re Christians who claim they’re Jewish and they don’t understand why Jews find that obnoxious and offensive.

This sounds anti-semitic. Who gets to decide who is Jewish?

Well... Jewish law has a lot of discussion about this actually. Jews get to decide who is Jewish, and Christian missionary groups that try to offer "Messianic Judaism" as a culturally sensitive way to become Christian are, in fact, antisemitic.

The Jews they are able to convert to this everything bagel-scented Christianity had weak Jewish affiliations to begin with or have psychological problems.

They see themselves as Jewish, so if you agree that Jews get to decide, then they’ve decided they’re Jews, right? You repeatedly trying to just write them off as psychologically disturbed says more about you than about them.

Jews have rules and courts where rules get decided. People don't get to just declare themselves Jewish. By definition, people who accept Jesus as the Messiah are Christians, and Christians are, by definition, not Jews.

NP. I'm curious, where and who are these courts? I can see a problem with a Messianic Jew showing up at a synagogue and proclaiming himself Jewish in front of the presiding rabbi. But control over the designation would seem to be in the hands of a group that calls itself Jewish, no? There's no Jewish pope, is there? Is there a structure like bishops?

Also, Jesus, his 12 disciples, Paul, and many others considered themselves Jewish even as they promulgated Jesus' message.

Anyone can call themselves Jewish because unlike other religions, Jews are not going to try to kill them for blasphemy. But everyone who is acting in good faith knows that someone who professes that Jesus is the Messiah is … Christian, not Jewish.

Again, who gets to decide? Who are these "everyone who is acting in good faith" who decide that some people are Jewish and others aren't?

Who gets to decide? Jews. There are rabbinical courts in Jewish communities that oversee/decide on matters of halacha (including conversions to Judaism, marriage and divorce, etc). While someone's Jewishness can't be revoked or invalidated, a Jew who rejects Judaism is an apostate. While they would be welcome to return to Judaism someday, nobody in the Jewish community is entertaining the idea that an apostate is still part of the Jewish community while they're over on the side worshipping Jesus as their Lord and Savior.

In the case of Messianic "rabbis," they shouldn't call themselves that without being ordained by a Jewish institution - there are many rabbinical schools and rabbinic councils. Ordination can be revoked for a bunch of reasons (depending on the rules of the specific council/body), including proselytizing about Jesus. If a Messianic "rabbi" was ordained outside of a Jewish movement (and no Jewish movement is going to ordain someone who professes faith in Jesus as the messiah), then they shouldn't be using the title "rabbi." That would be like me going to art school and then putting M.D. on the end of my name and trying to practice medicine.

Maybe it’s time for all religions to modernize and get with the times. The ancient rules and traditions from thousands of years ago don’t necessarily apply or fit in our modern culture and world. Especially since it seems like a lot of Jewish people are atheists and don’t even believe in God, why all the rules?

Jews have always been part of a counterculture in our exile. Most of us are fine with that. The ones who are not and feel the need for higher degrees of assimilation will no longer be Jewish in a generation or two.

The rules keep our civilization alive from generation to generation across millenia of dispersion around the world. That's literally our charge: from generation to generation. You won't understand, but we have a completely different conception of time, memory, and community.

This is a strange thread. So Jewish people are different from all other people, and different rules apply to Jewish people vs all other people in the world?

Ummm that is kind of the definition of a religion? Yes Jews are different from non-Jews, and yes they follow their own rules.

So religious people in America are allowed to follow different rules from all other Americans based on what their religion teaches them?

do you understand what a religion is?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s not true. They feel extra persecuted because they’re Christians who claim they’re Jewish and they don’t understand why Jews find that obnoxious and offensive.

This sounds anti-semitic. Who gets to decide who is Jewish?

Well... Jewish law has a lot of discussion about this actually. Jews get to decide who is Jewish, and Christian missionary groups that try to offer "Messianic Judaism" as a culturally sensitive way to become Christian are, in fact, antisemitic.

The Jews they are able to convert to this everything bagel-scented Christianity had weak Jewish affiliations to begin with or have psychological problems.

They see themselves as Jewish, so if you agree that Jews get to decide, then they’ve decided they’re Jews, right? You repeatedly trying to just write them off as psychologically disturbed says more about you than about them.

Jews have rules and courts where rules get decided. People don't get to just declare themselves Jewish. By definition, people who accept Jesus as the Messiah are Christians, and Christians are, by definition, not Jews.

NP. I'm curious, where and who are these courts? I can see a problem with a Messianic Jew showing up at a synagogue and proclaiming himself Jewish in front of the presiding rabbi. But control over the designation would seem to be in the hands of a group that calls itself Jewish, no? There's no Jewish pope, is there? Is there a structure like bishops?

Also, Jesus, his 12 disciples, Paul, and many others considered themselves Jewish even as they promulgated Jesus' message.

Anyone can call themselves Jewish because unlike other religions, Jews are not going to try to kill them for blasphemy. But everyone who is acting in good faith knows that someone who professes that Jesus is the Messiah is … Christian, not Jewish.

Again, who gets to decide? Who are these "everyone who is acting in good faith" who decide that some people are Jewish and others aren't?

Who gets to decide? Jews. There are rabbinical courts in Jewish communities that oversee/decide on matters of halacha (including conversions to Judaism, marriage and divorce, etc). While someone's Jewishness can't be revoked or invalidated, a Jew who rejects Judaism is an apostate. While they would be welcome to return to Judaism someday, nobody in the Jewish community is entertaining the idea that an apostate is still part of the Jewish community while they're over on the side worshipping Jesus as their Lord and Savior.

In the case of Messianic "rabbis," they shouldn't call themselves that without being ordained by a Jewish institution - there are many rabbinical schools and rabbinic councils. Ordination can be revoked for a bunch of reasons (depending on the rules of the specific council/body), including proselytizing about Jesus. If a Messianic "rabbi" was ordained outside of a Jewish movement (and no Jewish movement is going to ordain someone who professes faith in Jesus as the messiah), then they shouldn't be using the title "rabbi." That would be like me going to art school and then putting M.D. on the end of my name and trying to practice medicine.

Maybe it’s time for all religions to modernize and get with the times. The ancient rules and traditions from thousands of years ago don’t necessarily apply or fit in our modern culture and world. Especially since it seems like a lot of Jewish people are atheists and don’t even believe in God, why all the rules?

In what ways should Judaism (and "all religions") modernize? I'm a Conservative (denomination, not politics) Jew living without much problem in the modern, secular US. If your vision of "modernization" really just means throwing out traditions and basic tenets of our faith (like the fact that worshipping Jesus isn't compatible with Jewish theology), then I wholeheartedly reject that.

Not believing in God is compatible with Jewish theology, so why is belief in Jesus not compatible? At least the Jewish people who believe in JC believe in God.

are you this dumb in real life, or just the internet? maybe Muslims can just start believing Jesus was actually the prophet and not Muhhamed.

So Jewish people who don’t believe in God are perfectly acceptable- but the Jewish people who believe in JC are the bad people who are destroying Judaism? How does that make any sense at all?

I guess you ARE this stupid in real life.

Your only reply or explanation is an insult, noticed.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s not true. They feel extra persecuted because they’re Christians who claim they’re Jewish and they don’t understand why Jews find that obnoxious and offensive.

This sounds anti-semitic. Who gets to decide who is Jewish?

Well... Jewish law has a lot of discussion about this actually. Jews get to decide who is Jewish, and Christian missionary groups that try to offer "Messianic Judaism" as a culturally sensitive way to become Christian are, in fact, antisemitic.

The Jews they are able to convert to this everything bagel-scented Christianity had weak Jewish affiliations to begin with or have psychological problems.

They see themselves as Jewish, so if you agree that Jews get to decide, then they’ve decided they’re Jews, right? You repeatedly trying to just write them off as psychologically disturbed says more about you than about them.

Jews have rules and courts where rules get decided. People don't get to just declare themselves Jewish. By definition, people who accept Jesus as the Messiah are Christians, and Christians are, by definition, not Jews.

NP. I'm curious, where and who are these courts? I can see a problem with a Messianic Jew showing up at a synagogue and proclaiming himself Jewish in front of the presiding rabbi. But control over the designation would seem to be in the hands of a group that calls itself Jewish, no? There's no Jewish pope, is there? Is there a structure like bishops?

Also, Jesus, his 12 disciples, Paul, and many others considered themselves Jewish even as they promulgated Jesus' message.

Anyone can call themselves Jewish because unlike other religions, Jews are not going to try to kill them for blasphemy. But everyone who is acting in good faith knows that someone who professes that Jesus is the Messiah is … Christian, not Jewish.

Again, who gets to decide? Who are these "everyone who is acting in good faith" who decide that some people are Jewish and others aren't?

Who gets to decide? Jews. There are rabbinical courts in Jewish communities that oversee/decide on matters of halacha (including conversions to Judaism, marriage and divorce, etc). While someone's Jewishness can't be revoked or invalidated, a Jew who rejects Judaism is an apostate. While they would be welcome to return to Judaism someday, nobody in the Jewish community is entertaining the idea that an apostate is still part of the Jewish community while they're over on the side worshipping Jesus as their Lord and Savior.

In the case of Messianic "rabbis," they shouldn't call themselves that without being ordained by a Jewish institution - there are many rabbinical schools and rabbinic councils. Ordination can be revoked for a bunch of reasons (depending on the rules of the specific council/body), including proselytizing about Jesus. If a Messianic "rabbi" was ordained outside of a Jewish movement (and no Jewish movement is going to ordain someone who professes faith in Jesus as the messiah), then they shouldn't be using the title "rabbi." That would be like me going to art school and then putting M.D. on the end of my name and trying to practice medicine.

Maybe it’s time for all religions to modernize and get with the times. The ancient rules and traditions from thousands of years ago don’t necessarily apply or fit in our modern culture and world. Especially since it seems like a lot of Jewish people are atheists and don’t even believe in God, why all the rules?

In what ways should Judaism (and "all religions") modernize? I'm a Conservative (denomination, not politics) Jew living without much problem in the modern, secular US. If your vision of "modernization" really just means throwing out traditions and basic tenets of our faith (like the fact that worshipping Jesus isn't compatible with Jewish theology), then I wholeheartedly reject that.

Not believing in God is compatible with Jewish theology, so why is belief in Jesus not compatible? At least the Jewish people who believe in JC believe in God.

No, sorry, to Jews, the Jewish people who believe in JC are not believing in God. Also, correct, not believing in God is, indeed, perfectly compatible with Jewish theology, but believing Jesus is the path to salvation is not.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s not true. They feel extra persecuted because they’re Christians who claim they’re Jewish and they don’t understand why Jews find that obnoxious and offensive.

This sounds anti-semitic. Who gets to decide who is Jewish?

Well... Jewish law has a lot of discussion about this actually. Jews get to decide who is Jewish, and Christian missionary groups that try to offer "Messianic Judaism" as a culturally sensitive way to become Christian are, in fact, antisemitic.

The Jews they are able to convert to this everything bagel-scented Christianity had weak Jewish affiliations to begin with or have psychological problems.

They see themselves as Jewish, so if you agree that Jews get to decide, then they’ve decided they’re Jews, right? You repeatedly trying to just write them off as psychologically disturbed says more about you than about them.

Jews have rules and courts where rules get decided. People don't get to just declare themselves Jewish. By definition, people who accept Jesus as the Messiah are Christians, and Christians are, by definition, not Jews.

NP. I'm curious, where and who are these courts? I can see a problem with a Messianic Jew showing up at a synagogue and proclaiming himself Jewish in front of the presiding rabbi. But control over the designation would seem to be in the hands of a group that calls itself Jewish, no? There's no Jewish pope, is there? Is there a structure like bishops?

Also, Jesus, his 12 disciples, Paul, and many others considered themselves Jewish even as they promulgated Jesus' message.

Anyone can call themselves Jewish because unlike other religions, Jews are not going to try to kill them for blasphemy. But everyone who is acting in good faith knows that someone who professes that Jesus is the Messiah is … Christian, not Jewish.

Again, who gets to decide? Who are these "everyone who is acting in good faith" who decide that some people are Jewish and others aren't?

Who gets to decide? Jews. There are rabbinical courts in Jewish communities that oversee/decide on matters of halacha (including conversions to Judaism, marriage and divorce, etc). While someone's Jewishness can't be revoked or invalidated, a Jew who rejects Judaism is an apostate. While they would be welcome to return to Judaism someday, nobody in the Jewish community is entertaining the idea that an apostate is still part of the Jewish community while they're over on the side worshipping Jesus as their Lord and Savior.

In the case of Messianic "rabbis," they shouldn't call themselves that without being ordained by a Jewish institution - there are many rabbinical schools and rabbinic councils. Ordination can be revoked for a bunch of reasons (depending on the rules of the specific council/body), including proselytizing about Jesus. If a Messianic "rabbi" was ordained outside of a Jewish movement (and no Jewish movement is going to ordain someone who professes faith in Jesus as the messiah), then they shouldn't be using the title "rabbi." That would be like me going to art school and then putting M.D. on the end of my name and trying to practice medicine.

Maybe it’s time for all religions to modernize and get with the times. The ancient rules and traditions from thousands of years ago don’t necessarily apply or fit in our modern culture and world. Especially since it seems like a lot of Jewish people are atheists and don’t even believe in God, why all the rules?

In what ways should Judaism (and "all religions") modernize? I'm a Conservative (denomination, not politics) Jew living without much problem in the modern, secular US. If your vision of "modernization" really just means throwing out traditions and basic tenets of our faith (like the fact that worshipping Jesus isn't compatible with Jewish theology), then I wholeheartedly reject that.

Not believing in God is compatible with Jewish theology, so why is belief in Jesus not compatible? At least the Jewish people who believe in JC believe in God.

are you this dumb in real life, or just the internet? maybe Muslims can just start believing Jesus was actually the prophet and not Muhhamed.

So Jewish people who don’t believe in God are perfectly acceptable- but the Jewish people who believe in JC are the bad people who are destroying Judaism? How does that make any sense at all?

They’re not necessarily bad people, and they’re not destroying Judaism. They’re just not Jews, they’re Christians.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s not true. They feel extra persecuted because they’re Christians who claim they’re Jewish and they don’t understand why Jews find that obnoxious and offensive.

This sounds anti-semitic. Who gets to decide who is Jewish?

Well... Jewish law has a lot of discussion about this actually. Jews get to decide who is Jewish, and Christian missionary groups that try to offer "Messianic Judaism" as a culturally sensitive way to become Christian are, in fact, antisemitic.

The Jews they are able to convert to this everything bagel-scented Christianity had weak Jewish affiliations to begin with or have psychological problems.

They see themselves as Jewish, so if you agree that Jews get to decide, then they’ve decided they’re Jews, right? You repeatedly trying to just write them off as psychologically disturbed says more about you than about them.

Jews have rules and courts where rules get decided. People don't get to just declare themselves Jewish. By definition, people who accept Jesus as the Messiah are Christians, and Christians are, by definition, not Jews.

NP. I'm curious, where and who are these courts? I can see a problem with a Messianic Jew showing up at a synagogue and proclaiming himself Jewish in front of the presiding rabbi. But control over the designation would seem to be in the hands of a group that calls itself Jewish, no? There's no Jewish pope, is there? Is there a structure like bishops?

Also, Jesus, his 12 disciples, Paul, and many others considered themselves Jewish even as they promulgated Jesus' message.

Anyone can call themselves Jewish because unlike other religions, Jews are not going to try to kill them for blasphemy. But everyone who is acting in good faith knows that someone who professes that Jesus is the Messiah is … Christian, not Jewish.

Again, who gets to decide? Who are these "everyone who is acting in good faith" who decide that some people are Jewish and others aren't?

Who gets to decide? Jews. There are rabbinical courts in Jewish communities that oversee/decide on matters of halacha (including conversions to Judaism, marriage and divorce, etc). While someone's Jewishness can't be revoked or invalidated, a Jew who rejects Judaism is an apostate. While they would be welcome to return to Judaism someday, nobody in the Jewish community is entertaining the idea that an apostate is still part of the Jewish community while they're over on the side worshipping Jesus as their Lord and Savior.

In the case of Messianic "rabbis," they shouldn't call themselves that without being ordained by a Jewish institution - there are many rabbinical schools and rabbinic councils. Ordination can be revoked for a bunch of reasons (depending on the rules of the specific council/body), including proselytizing about Jesus. If a Messianic "rabbi" was ordained outside of a Jewish movement (and no Jewish movement is going to ordain someone who professes faith in Jesus as the messiah), then they shouldn't be using the title "rabbi." That would be like me going to art school and then putting M.D. on the end of my name and trying to practice medicine.

Maybe it’s time for all religions to modernize and get with the times. The ancient rules and traditions from thousands of years ago don’t necessarily apply or fit in our modern culture and world. Especially since it seems like a lot of Jewish people are atheists and don’t even believe in God, why all the rules?

In what ways should Judaism (and "all religions") modernize? I'm a Conservative (denomination, not politics) Jew living without much problem in the modern, secular US. If your vision of "modernization" really just means throwing out traditions and basic tenets of our faith (like the fact that worshipping Jesus isn't compatible with Jewish theology), then I wholeheartedly reject that.

Not believing in God is compatible with Jewish theology, so why is belief in Jesus not compatible? At least the Jewish people who believe in JC believe in God.

I don't think you understand religion or theology. Certainly, you don't understand Judaism specifically, which, to be fair, is a complex web of religion/culture/ethnicity that many people struggle to comprehend. But I really don't know why the basics of religion in general are so difficult for you.

A person can be Jewish and atheist. There are plenty of Jewish atheists today who view God as a metaphor or see the concept of God reflected in humanity, rather than a real Creator/Deity. They find value and wisdom in the Torah and Jewish Law, even if God is not real. I attended a Shabbat service at a Conservative synagogue once where a member was invited to give the sermon and his sermon was about how he is an atheist, but belonged to the synagogue and attended regularly for the communal connection. There are many ways to plug into Judaism.

But, again, belief in Jesus as the Messiah is not Judaism. It's Christianity. Jesus has his whole own religion, so people who worship Jesus shouldn't go around pretending to be practicing Judaism.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s not true. They feel extra persecuted because they’re Christians who claim they’re Jewish and they don’t understand why Jews find that obnoxious and offensive.

This sounds anti-semitic. Who gets to decide who is Jewish?

Well... Jewish law has a lot of discussion about this actually. Jews get to decide who is Jewish, and Christian missionary groups that try to offer "Messianic Judaism" as a culturally sensitive way to become Christian are, in fact, antisemitic.

The Jews they are able to convert to this everything bagel-scented Christianity had weak Jewish affiliations to begin with or have psychological problems.

They see themselves as Jewish, so if you agree that Jews get to decide, then they’ve decided they’re Jews, right? You repeatedly trying to just write them off as psychologically disturbed says more about you than about them.

Jews have rules and courts where rules get decided. People don't get to just declare themselves Jewish. By definition, people who accept Jesus as the Messiah are Christians, and Christians are, by definition, not Jews.

NP. I'm curious, where and who are these courts? I can see a problem with a Messianic Jew showing up at a synagogue and proclaiming himself Jewish in front of the presiding rabbi. But control over the designation would seem to be in the hands of a group that calls itself Jewish, no? There's no Jewish pope, is there? Is there a structure like bishops?

Also, Jesus, his 12 disciples, Paul, and many others considered themselves Jewish even as they promulgated Jesus' message.

Anyone can call themselves Jewish because unlike other religions, Jews are not going to try to kill them for blasphemy. But everyone who is acting in good faith knows that someone who professes that Jesus is the Messiah is … Christian, not Jewish.

Again, who gets to decide? Who are these "everyone who is acting in good faith" who decide that some people are Jewish and others aren't?

Who gets to decide? Jews. There are rabbinical courts in Jewish communities that oversee/decide on matters of halacha (including conversions to Judaism, marriage and divorce, etc). While someone's Jewishness can't be revoked or invalidated, a Jew who rejects Judaism is an apostate. While they would be welcome to return to Judaism someday, nobody in the Jewish community is entertaining the idea that an apostate is still part of the Jewish community while they're over on the side worshipping Jesus as their Lord and Savior.

In the case of Messianic "rabbis," they shouldn't call themselves that without being ordained by a Jewish institution - there are many rabbinical schools and rabbinic councils. Ordination can be revoked for a bunch of reasons (depending on the rules of the specific council/body), including proselytizing about Jesus. If a Messianic "rabbi" was ordained outside of a Jewish movement (and no Jewish movement is going to ordain someone who professes faith in Jesus as the messiah), then they shouldn't be using the title "rabbi." That would be like me going to art school and then putting M.D. on the end of my name and trying to practice medicine.

Maybe it’s time for all religions to modernize and get with the times. The ancient rules and traditions from thousands of years ago don’t necessarily apply or fit in our modern culture and world. Especially since it seems like a lot of Jewish people are atheists and don’t even believe in God, why all the rules?

In what ways should Judaism (and "all religions") modernize? I'm a Conservative (denomination, not politics) Jew living without much problem in the modern, secular US. If your vision of "modernization" really just means throwing out traditions and basic tenets of our faith (like the fact that worshipping Jesus isn't compatible with Jewish theology), then I wholeheartedly reject that.

Not believing in God is compatible with Jewish theology, so why is belief in Jesus not compatible? At least the Jewish people who believe in JC believe in God.

You can't have another G-d before G-d, but it has been argued that you can have no G-d as long as you follow the rules that preserve your membership in the Jewish people.

I don't think you're going to understand. Our whole worldview is really different from yours and you seem to have a hard time grasping that we are ok with out worldview not making sense in the context of your preferred culture. But again, we've been a counterculture for a really, really long time.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s not true. They feel extra persecuted because they’re Christians who claim they’re Jewish and they don’t understand why Jews find that obnoxious and offensive.

This sounds anti-semitic. Who gets to decide who is Jewish?

Well... Jewish law has a lot of discussion about this actually. Jews get to decide who is Jewish, and Christian missionary groups that try to offer "Messianic Judaism" as a culturally sensitive way to become Christian are, in fact, antisemitic.

The Jews they are able to convert to this everything bagel-scented Christianity had weak Jewish affiliations to begin with or have psychological problems.

They see themselves as Jewish, so if you agree that Jews get to decide, then they’ve decided they’re Jews, right? You repeatedly trying to just write them off as psychologically disturbed says more about you than about them.

Jews have rules and courts where rules get decided. People don't get to just declare themselves Jewish. By definition, people who accept Jesus as the Messiah are Christians, and Christians are, by definition, not Jews.

NP. I'm curious, where and who are these courts? I can see a problem with a Messianic Jew showing up at a synagogue and proclaiming himself Jewish in front of the presiding rabbi. But control over the designation would seem to be in the hands of a group that calls itself Jewish, no? There's no Jewish pope, is there? Is there a structure like bishops?

Also, Jesus, his 12 disciples, Paul, and many others considered themselves Jewish even as they promulgated Jesus' message.

Anyone can call themselves Jewish because unlike other religions, Jews are not going to try to kill them for blasphemy. But everyone who is acting in good faith knows that someone who professes that Jesus is the Messiah is … Christian, not Jewish.

Again, who gets to decide? Who are these "everyone who is acting in good faith" who decide that some people are Jewish and others aren't?

Who gets to decide? Jews. There are rabbinical courts in Jewish communities that oversee/decide on matters of halacha (including conversions to Judaism, marriage and divorce, etc). While someone's Jewishness can't be revoked or invalidated, a Jew who rejects Judaism is an apostate. While they would be welcome to return to Judaism someday, nobody in the Jewish community is entertaining the idea that an apostate is still part of the Jewish community while they're over on the side worshipping Jesus as their Lord and Savior.

In the case of Messianic "rabbis," they shouldn't call themselves that without being ordained by a Jewish institution - there are many rabbinical schools and rabbinic councils. Ordination can be revoked for a bunch of reasons (depending on the rules of the specific council/body), including proselytizing about Jesus. If a Messianic "rabbi" was ordained outside of a Jewish movement (and no Jewish movement is going to ordain someone who professes faith in Jesus as the messiah), then they shouldn't be using the title "rabbi." That would be like me going to art school and then putting M.D. on the end of my name and trying to practice medicine.

Maybe it’s time for all religions to modernize and get with the times. The ancient rules and traditions from thousands of years ago don’t necessarily apply or fit in our modern culture and world. Especially since it seems like a lot of Jewish people are atheists and don’t even believe in God, why all the rules?

In what ways should Judaism (and "all religions") modernize? I'm a Conservative (denomination, not politics) Jew living without much problem in the modern, secular US. If your vision of "modernization" really just means throwing out traditions and basic tenets of our faith (like the fact that worshipping Jesus isn't compatible with Jewish theology), then I wholeheartedly reject that.

Not believing in God is compatible with Jewish theology, so why is belief in Jesus not compatible? At least the Jewish people who believe in JC believe in God.

are you this dumb in real life, or just the internet? maybe Muslims can just start believing Jesus was actually the prophet and not Muhhamed.

So Jewish people who don’t believe in God are perfectly acceptable- but the Jewish people who believe in JC are the bad people who are destroying Judaism? How does that make any sense at all?

They’re not necessarily bad people, and they’re not destroying Judaism. They’re just not Jews, they’re Christians.

To be fair, some of them are bad people. There was a case in Chicago a few years ago where Jews for Jesus types tried to go undercover in a Hasidic community to collect converts. I know people who said they knew them before they were exposed as missionaries. Christian missionary activity that targets Jews is deeply disrespectful and even hurtful.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s not true. They feel extra persecuted because they’re Christians who claim they’re Jewish and they don’t understand why Jews find that obnoxious and offensive.

This sounds anti-semitic. Who gets to decide who is Jewish?

Well... Jewish law has a lot of discussion about this actually. Jews get to decide who is Jewish, and Christian missionary groups that try to offer "Messianic Judaism" as a culturally sensitive way to become Christian are, in fact, antisemitic.

The Jews they are able to convert to this everything bagel-scented Christianity had weak Jewish affiliations to begin with or have psychological problems.

They see themselves as Jewish, so if you agree that Jews get to decide, then they’ve decided they’re Jews, right? You repeatedly trying to just write them off as psychologically disturbed says more about you than about them.

Jews have rules and courts where rules get decided. People don't get to just declare themselves Jewish. By definition, people who accept Jesus as the Messiah are Christians, and Christians are, by definition, not Jews.

NP. I'm curious, where and who are these courts? I can see a problem with a Messianic Jew showing up at a synagogue and proclaiming himself Jewish in front of the presiding rabbi. But control over the designation would seem to be in the hands of a group that calls itself Jewish, no? There's no Jewish pope, is there? Is there a structure like bishops?

Also, Jesus, his 12 disciples, Paul, and many others considered themselves Jewish even as they promulgated Jesus' message.

Anyone can call themselves Jewish because unlike other religions, Jews are not going to try to kill them for blasphemy. But everyone who is acting in good faith knows that someone who professes that Jesus is the Messiah is … Christian, not Jewish.

Again, who gets to decide? Who are these "everyone who is acting in good faith" who decide that some people are Jewish and others aren't?

Who gets to decide? Jews. There are rabbinical courts in Jewish communities that oversee/decide on matters of halacha (including conversions to Judaism, marriage and divorce, etc). While someone's Jewishness can't be revoked or invalidated, a Jew who rejects Judaism is an apostate. While they would be welcome to return to Judaism someday, nobody in the Jewish community is entertaining the idea that an apostate is still part of the Jewish community while they're over on the side worshipping Jesus as their Lord and Savior.

In the case of Messianic "rabbis," they shouldn't call themselves that without being ordained by a Jewish institution - there are many rabbinical schools and rabbinic councils. Ordination can be revoked for a bunch of reasons (depending on the rules of the specific council/body), including proselytizing about Jesus. If a Messianic "rabbi" was ordained outside of a Jewish movement (and no Jewish movement is going to ordain someone who professes faith in Jesus as the messiah), then they shouldn't be using the title "rabbi." That would be like me going to art school and then putting M.D. on the end of my name and trying to practice medicine.

Maybe it’s time for all religions to modernize and get with the times. The ancient rules and traditions from thousands of years ago don’t necessarily apply or fit in our modern culture and world. Especially since it seems like a lot of Jewish people are atheists and don’t even believe in God, why all the rules?

Jews have always been part of a counterculture in our exile. Most of us are fine with that. The ones who are not and feel the need for higher degrees of assimilation will no longer be Jewish in a generation or two.

The rules keep our civilization alive from generation to generation across millenia of dispersion around the world. That's literally our charge: from generation to generation. You won't understand, but we have a completely different conception of time, memory, and community.

This is a strange thread. So Jewish people are different from all other people, and different rules apply to Jewish people vs all other people in the world?

Of course they are! That is much of their identity. It's literally in the book they believe in. Meanwhile, I just identify as a human being, and there are literally thousands killed every year (just within the last month even) because people are still not evolved enough to give up the identity as anything OTHER than human. Many different people want to feel special, their land is special and only theirs, etc. I guarantee that in another thousand years (hopefully) we will be seen as the un-evolved species that we currently are. There is no way any of this is anything but toxic to humanity as a whole.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s not true. They feel extra persecuted because they’re Christians who claim they’re Jewish and they don’t understand why Jews find that obnoxious and offensive.

This sounds anti-semitic. Who gets to decide who is Jewish?

Well... Jewish law has a lot of discussion about this actually. Jews get to decide who is Jewish, and Christian missionary groups that try to offer "Messianic Judaism" as a culturally sensitive way to become Christian are, in fact, antisemitic.

The Jews they are able to convert to this everything bagel-scented Christianity had weak Jewish affiliations to begin with or have psychological problems.

They see themselves as Jewish, so if you agree that Jews get to decide, then they’ve decided they’re Jews, right? You repeatedly trying to just write them off as psychologically disturbed says more about you than about them.

Jews have rules and courts where rules get decided. People don't get to just declare themselves Jewish. By definition, people who accept Jesus as the Messiah are Christians, and Christians are, by definition, not Jews.

NP. I'm curious, where and who are these courts? I can see a problem with a Messianic Jew showing up at a synagogue and proclaiming himself Jewish in front of the presiding rabbi. But control over the designation would seem to be in the hands of a group that calls itself Jewish, no? There's no Jewish pope, is there? Is there a structure like bishops?

Also, Jesus, his 12 disciples, Paul, and many others considered themselves Jewish even as they promulgated Jesus' message.

Anyone can call themselves Jewish because unlike other religions, Jews are not going to try to kill them for blasphemy. But everyone who is acting in good faith knows that someone who professes that Jesus is the Messiah is … Christian, not Jewish.

Again, who gets to decide? Who are these "everyone who is acting in good faith" who decide that some people are Jewish and others aren't?

Who gets to decide? Jews. There are rabbinical courts in Jewish communities that oversee/decide on matters of halacha (including conversions to Judaism, marriage and divorce, etc). While someone's Jewishness can't be revoked or invalidated, a Jew who rejects Judaism is an apostate. While they would be welcome to return to Judaism someday, nobody in the Jewish community is entertaining the idea that an apostate is still part of the Jewish community while they're over on the side worshipping Jesus as their Lord and Savior.

In the case of Messianic "rabbis," they shouldn't call themselves that without being ordained by a Jewish institution - there are many rabbinical schools and rabbinic councils. Ordination can be revoked for a bunch of reasons (depending on the rules of the specific council/body), including proselytizing about Jesus. If a Messianic "rabbi" was ordained outside of a Jewish movement (and no Jewish movement is going to ordain someone who professes faith in Jesus as the messiah), then they shouldn't be using the title "rabbi." That would be like me going to art school and then putting M.D. on the end of my name and trying to practice medicine.

Maybe it’s time for all religions to modernize and get with the times. The ancient rules and traditions from thousands of years ago don’t necessarily apply or fit in our modern culture and world. Especially since it seems like a lot of Jewish people are atheists and don’t even believe in God, why all the rules?

Jews have always been part of a counterculture in our exile. Most of us are fine with that. The ones who are not and feel the need for higher degrees of assimilation will no longer be Jewish in a generation or two.

The rules keep our civilization alive from generation to generation across millenia of dispersion around the world. That's literally our charge: from generation to generation. You won't understand, but we have a completely different conception of time, memory, and community.

This is a strange thread. So Jewish people are different from all other people, and different rules apply to Jewish people vs all other people in the world?

Of course they are! That is much of their identity. It's literally in the book they believe in. Meanwhile, I just identify as a human being, and there are literally thousands killed every year (just within the last month even) because people are still not evolved enough to give up the identity as anything OTHER than human. Many different people want to feel special, their land is special and only theirs, etc. I guarantee that in another thousand years (hopefully) we will be seen as the un-evolved species that we currently are. There is no way any of this is anything but toxic to humanity as a whole.

But you, MiniGoebbels, are a real peach, amirite?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s not true. They feel extra persecuted because they’re Christians who claim they’re Jewish and they don’t understand why Jews find that obnoxious and offensive.

This sounds anti-semitic. Who gets to decide who is Jewish?

Well... Jewish law has a lot of discussion about this actually. Jews get to decide who is Jewish, and Christian missionary groups that try to offer "Messianic Judaism" as a culturally sensitive way to become Christian are, in fact, antisemitic.

The Jews they are able to convert to this everything bagel-scented Christianity had weak Jewish affiliations to begin with or have psychological problems.

They see themselves as Jewish, so if you agree that Jews get to decide, then they’ve decided they’re Jews, right? You repeatedly trying to just write them off as psychologically disturbed says more about you than about them.

Jews have rules and courts where rules get decided. People don't get to just declare themselves Jewish. By definition, people who accept Jesus as the Messiah are Christians, and Christians are, by definition, not Jews.

NP. I'm curious, where and who are these courts? I can see a problem with a Messianic Jew showing up at a synagogue and proclaiming himself Jewish in front of the presiding rabbi. But control over the designation would seem to be in the hands of a group that calls itself Jewish, no? There's no Jewish pope, is there? Is there a structure like bishops?

Also, Jesus, his 12 disciples, Paul, and many others considered themselves Jewish even as they promulgated Jesus' message.

Anyone can call themselves Jewish because unlike other religions, Jews are not going to try to kill them for blasphemy. But everyone who is acting in good faith knows that someone who professes that Jesus is the Messiah is … Christian, not Jewish.

Again, who gets to decide? Who are these "everyone who is acting in good faith" who decide that some people are Jewish and others aren't?

Who gets to decide? Jews. There are rabbinical courts in Jewish communities that oversee/decide on matters of halacha (including conversions to Judaism, marriage and divorce, etc). While someone's Jewishness can't be revoked or invalidated, a Jew who rejects Judaism is an apostate. While they would be welcome to return to Judaism someday, nobody in the Jewish community is entertaining the idea that an apostate is still part of the Jewish community while they're over on the side worshipping Jesus as their Lord and Savior.

In the case of Messianic "rabbis," they shouldn't call themselves that without being ordained by a Jewish institution - there are many rabbinical schools and rabbinic councils. Ordination can be revoked for a bunch of reasons (depending on the rules of the specific council/body), including proselytizing about Jesus. If a Messianic "rabbi" was ordained outside of a Jewish movement (and no Jewish movement is going to ordain someone who professes faith in Jesus as the messiah), then they shouldn't be using the title "rabbi." That would be like me going to art school and then putting M.D. on the end of my name and trying to practice medicine.

Maybe it’s time for all religions to modernize and get with the times. The ancient rules and traditions from thousands of years ago don’t necessarily apply or fit in our modern culture and world. Especially since it seems like a lot of Jewish people are atheists and don’t even believe in God, why all the rules?

Jews have always been part of a counterculture in our exile. Most of us are fine with that. The ones who are not and feel the need for higher degrees of assimilation will no longer be Jewish in a generation or two.

The rules keep our civilization alive from generation to generation across millenia of dispersion around the world. That's literally our charge: from generation to generation. You won't understand, but we have a completely different conception of time, memory, and community.

This is a strange thread. So Jewish people are different from all other people, and different rules apply to Jewish people vs all other people in the world?

Of course they are! That is much of their identity. It's literally in the book they believe in. Meanwhile, I just identify as a human being, and there are literally thousands killed every year (just within the last month even) because people are still not evolved enough to give up the identity as anything OTHER than human. Many different people want to feel special, their land is special and only theirs, etc. I guarantee that in another thousand years (hopefully) we will be seen as the un-evolved species that we currently are. There is no way any of this is anything but toxic to humanity as a whole.

Oh, thanks, this is really helpful and also completely relevant to the discussion.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s not true. They feel extra persecuted because they’re Christians who claim they’re Jewish and they don’t understand why Jews find that obnoxious and offensive.

This sounds anti-semitic. Who gets to decide who is Jewish?

Well... Jewish law has a lot of discussion about this actually. Jews get to decide who is Jewish, and Christian missionary groups that try to offer "Messianic Judaism" as a culturally sensitive way to become Christian are, in fact, antisemitic.

The Jews they are able to convert to this everything bagel-scented Christianity had weak Jewish affiliations to begin with or have psychological problems.

They see themselves as Jewish, so if you agree that Jews get to decide, then they’ve decided they’re Jews, right? You repeatedly trying to just write them off as psychologically disturbed says more about you than about them.

Jews have rules and courts where rules get decided. People don't get to just declare themselves Jewish. By definition, people who accept Jesus as the Messiah are Christians, and Christians are, by definition, not Jews.

NP. I'm curious, where and who are these courts? I can see a problem with a Messianic Jew showing up at a synagogue and proclaiming himself Jewish in front of the presiding rabbi. But control over the designation would seem to be in the hands of a group that calls itself Jewish, no? There's no Jewish pope, is there? Is there a structure like bishops?

Also, Jesus, his 12 disciples, Paul, and many others considered themselves Jewish even as they promulgated Jesus' message.

Anyone can call themselves Jewish because unlike other religions, Jews are not going to try to kill them for blasphemy. But everyone who is acting in good faith knows that someone who professes that Jesus is the Messiah is … Christian, not Jewish.

Again, who gets to decide? Who are these "everyone who is acting in good faith" who decide that some people are Jewish and others aren't?

Who gets to decide? Jews. There are rabbinical courts in Jewish communities that oversee/decide on matters of halacha (including conversions to Judaism, marriage and divorce, etc). While someone's Jewishness can't be revoked or invalidated, a Jew who rejects Judaism is an apostate. While they would be welcome to return to Judaism someday, nobody in the Jewish community is entertaining the idea that an apostate is still part of the Jewish community while they're over on the side worshipping Jesus as their Lord and Savior.

In the case of Messianic "rabbis," they shouldn't call themselves that without being ordained by a Jewish institution - there are many rabbinical schools and rabbinic councils. Ordination can be revoked for a bunch of reasons (depending on the rules of the specific council/body), including proselytizing about Jesus. If a Messianic "rabbi" was ordained outside of a Jewish movement (and no Jewish movement is going to ordain someone who professes faith in Jesus as the messiah), then they shouldn't be using the title "rabbi." That would be like me going to art school and then putting M.D. on the end of my name and trying to practice medicine.

Maybe it’s time for all religions to modernize and get with the times. The ancient rules and traditions from thousands of years ago don’t necessarily apply or fit in our modern culture and world. Especially since it seems like a lot of Jewish people are atheists and don’t even believe in God, why all the rules?

In what ways should Judaism (and "all religions") modernize? I'm a Conservative (denomination, not politics) Jew living without much problem in the modern, secular US. If your vision of "modernization" really just means throwing out traditions and basic tenets of our faith (like the fact that worshipping Jesus isn't compatible with Jewish theology), then I wholeheartedly reject that.

Not believing in God is compatible with Jewish theology, so why is belief in Jesus not compatible? At least the Jewish people who believe in JC believe in God.

I don't think you understand religion or theology. Certainly, you don't understand Judaism specifically, which, to be fair, is a complex web of religion/culture/ethnicity that many people struggle to comprehend. But I really don't know why the basics of religion in general are so difficult for you.

A person can be Jewish and atheist. There are plenty of Jewish atheists today who view God as a metaphor or see the concept of God reflected in humanity, rather than a real Creator/Deity. They find value and wisdom in the Torah and Jewish Law, even if God is not real. I attended a Shabbat service at a Conservative synagogue once where a member was invited to give the sermon and his sermon was about how he is an atheist, but belonged to the synagogue and attended regularly for the communal connection. There are many ways to plug into Judaism.

But, again, belief in Jesus as the Messiah is not Judaism. It's Christianity. Jesus has his whole own religion, so people who worship Jesus shouldn't go around pretending to be practicing Judaism.

It’s nonsensical to allow some Jewish people to make up their own rules about being Jewish, but not others.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s not true. They feel extra persecuted because they’re Christians who claim they’re Jewish and they don’t understand why Jews find that obnoxious and offensive.

This sounds anti-semitic. Who gets to decide who is Jewish?

Well... Jewish law has a lot of discussion about this actually. Jews get to decide who is Jewish, and Christian missionary groups that try to offer "Messianic Judaism" as a culturally sensitive way to become Christian are, in fact, antisemitic.

The Jews they are able to convert to this everything bagel-scented Christianity had weak Jewish affiliations to begin with or have psychological problems.

They see themselves as Jewish, so if you agree that Jews get to decide, then they’ve decided they’re Jews, right? You repeatedly trying to just write them off as psychologically disturbed says more about you than about them.

Jews have rules and courts where rules get decided. People don't get to just declare themselves Jewish. By definition, people who accept Jesus as the Messiah are Christians, and Christians are, by definition, not Jews.

NP. I'm curious, where and who are these courts? I can see a problem with a Messianic Jew showing up at a synagogue and proclaiming himself Jewish in front of the presiding rabbi. But control over the designation would seem to be in the hands of a group that calls itself Jewish, no? There's no Jewish pope, is there? Is there a structure like bishops?

Also, Jesus, his 12 disciples, Paul, and many others considered themselves Jewish even as they promulgated Jesus' message.

Anyone can call themselves Jewish because unlike other religions, Jews are not going to try to kill them for blasphemy. But everyone who is acting in good faith knows that someone who professes that Jesus is the Messiah is … Christian, not Jewish.

Again, who gets to decide? Who are these "everyone who is acting in good faith" who decide that some people are Jewish and others aren't?

Who gets to decide? Jews. There are rabbinical courts in Jewish communities that oversee/decide on matters of halacha (including conversions to Judaism, marriage and divorce, etc). While someone's Jewishness can't be revoked or invalidated, a Jew who rejects Judaism is an apostate. While they would be welcome to return to Judaism someday, nobody in the Jewish community is entertaining the idea that an apostate is still part of the Jewish community while they're over on the side worshipping Jesus as their Lord and Savior.

In the case of Messianic "rabbis," they shouldn't call themselves that without being ordained by a Jewish institution - there are many rabbinical schools and rabbinic councils. Ordination can be revoked for a bunch of reasons (depending on the rules of the specific council/body), including proselytizing about Jesus. If a Messianic "rabbi" was ordained outside of a Jewish movement (and no Jewish movement is going to ordain someone who professes faith in Jesus as the messiah), then they shouldn't be using the title "rabbi." That would be like me going to art school and then putting M.D. on the end of my name and trying to practice medicine.

Maybe it’s time for all religions to modernize and get with the times. The ancient rules and traditions from thousands of years ago don’t necessarily apply or fit in our modern culture and world. Especially since it seems like a lot of Jewish people are atheists and don’t even believe in God, why all the rules?

Jews have always been part of a counterculture in our exile. Most of us are fine with that. The ones who are not and feel the need for higher degrees of assimilation will no longer be Jewish in a generation or two.

The rules keep our civilization alive from generation to generation across millenia of dispersion around the world. That's literally our charge: from generation to generation. You won't understand, but we have a completely different conception of time, memory, and community.

This is a strange thread. So Jewish people are different from all other people, and different rules apply to Jewish people vs all other people in the world?

Of course they are! That is much of their identity. It's literally in the book they believe in. Meanwhile, I just identify as a human being, and there are literally thousands killed every year (just within the last month even) because people are still not evolved enough to give up the identity as anything OTHER than human. Many different people want to feel special, their land is special and only theirs, etc. I guarantee that in another thousand years (hopefully) we will be seen as the un-evolved species that we currently are. There is no way any of this is anything but toxic to humanity as a whole.

Your post reads like Jews are not human and we are toxic to humanity. Who is the un-evolved backwards person here?