Question about Messianic Judaism

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:There is clearly a determined Christian missionary on this thread.

There are actually determined antisemites on DCUM unfortunately.

The thread was started by someone who is Jewish, complaining about Christians.

No it wasn’t. The thread was started by someone spreading a falsehood about Jews (that they sue to stop “Messianic Jewish” congregations).

Jewish people posting here (who don’t speak for all Jewish people) have illogical and inconsistent rules about who they think should be Jewish. The thread was started by a troll (notice op never showed up again) to denigrate Christianity. It ended up discussing topics Jewish people don’t like to discuss or explain, so they start claiming antisemitism. Nobody on this thread has a right to speak for all Jewish people or claim it’s antisemitism when people discuss Judaism.

Wow. so you’re really dug in on how Jews have no right to determine even the most basic rules about their religion? I’m not sure if you actually actively dislike Jewish individuals but you are definitely anti-semitic.

It makes zero sense that a person is considered Jewish if they don’t believe in God, but are called names, disparaged, etc, because they think Jesus was the Son of God. It’s not hateful to ask why Jewish people can declare God does not exist and still be Jewish. It just doesn’t make any sense. It would seem a basic rule would be to acknowledge God exists.

Jews regard Judaism as their means of observing the Mosaic covenant, which was established between God and the Israelites, their ancestors. Judaism is the belief that God is one and is concerned with the actions of mankind. God commanded the nation of Israel to love and worship only one God. God also commanded the Jewish people to love one another; Jews are to imitate God's love for people.

So if a Jewish person is an atheist, how can they do any of these things? The person doesn’t believe the foundation of Judaism exists.

Why do you think you, non-Jewish internet rando, can díctate whay makes zero sense in a religion with a long scholarly tradition of interpreting its own rules? You seem to be attempting to insult or invalidate Judaism as a whole based on some gotcha you think is so clever. Meanwhile as has been explained to you here, Jewish theologians have given careful thought to the question. More broadly, the crisis of faith happens in all religions - the dark night of the soul. Nobody gets upset for example that Mother Teresa had basically no faith for her entire life.

This forum has a plethora of anonymous, non-*insert religious denomination* randos trying to interpret rules and play gotcha with every religion.

It doesn’t make sense that any religion that is based upon belief in a specific God would allow people who don’t believe in that God to be members of that religion. Nobody needs to disrespect or dislike someone that doesn’t have the same religious belief as they do, but including them in the religion when they deny the basis for your religion? Does your religion not have any actual meaning?

Like Satanists who claim to be Satanists, but don’t actually believe in Satan. They say Satan is a “metaphor.” There are Satanists who do believe in Satan, but the Satanic Temple says they don’t and that their religion is based on: “The Mission Of The Satanic Temple Is To Encourage Benevolence And Empathy, Reject Tyrannical Authority, Advocate Practical Common Sense, Oppose Injustice, And Undertake Noble Pursuits.” No belief in a God or gods, so why is that considered a religion?

Religion is the belief in and worship of a superhuman power or powers, especially a God or gods.

So an atheist who has no belief in God is by definition not religious. Yet they are accepted as a Jewish person in the Jewish religion.

The IRS gives religions/churches special rules, and it also seems like if a group is really not religious, they are using the IRS rules incorrectly to gain tax exemptions. It seems unethical and borderline illegal to claim to be a religion or religious and receive tax breaks meant for religious organizations while not actually having religious belief.

Are you suggesting that churches and other religious institutions should be required to expel their members who don’t believe in God or they would lose their tax exempt status?

That is ridiculous. Repeat this to yourself and actually think about what kind of enforcement and intrusion this would entail. Also tell me what tax status a Buddhist entity should receive? Or are you just trying to apply your ridiculous view to Jews?

We are telling you that Reform, Conservative, Orthodox, etc. Jewish entities don’t consider messianic Jews to be Jewish. That’s it. Get over yourself.

Yes, but why do they consider Jews who don’t believe in God, Jewish?

There have been numerous answers to this question on the thread already. Go back and read. There are centuries of Jewish thought on the subject.

I don’t see an answer. Could you explain how Jewish people who don’t believe in God are accepted as Jewish but Jewish people who believe in God and Jesus are considered not acceptable?

I understand that perhaps you didn't read the whole thread, since it's pretty long at this point. Go back to any of these time stamps for the answers you missed.

12/27/2023 13:54

12/27/2023 14:35

12/28/2023 15:07

12/28/2023 15:37

12/28/2023 16:33

12/28/2023 19:05

12/29/2023 00:47

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:There are even bigger gaps when it comes to belief in God. About a quarter of Jews (26%) say they believe in God as described in the Bible, compared with more than half of U.S. adults overall (56%) and eight-in-ten Christians. Jews are more likely than U.S. adults overall (50% vs. 33%) to say they believe in some other spiritual force or higher power, but not in God as described in the Bible. Jewish adults also are twice as likely as the general public to say they do not believe in any kind of higher power or spiritual force in the universe (22% vs. 10%).

Orthodox Jews – who make up 9% of all U.S. Jews – are a notable exception. They are among the most highly religious groups in U.S. society by these measures. For example, 86% of Orthodox Jews say religion is very important in their lives, as do 78% of Black Protestants and 76% of White evangelical Protestants, two of the most highly religious Christian subgroups. Orthodox Jews (93%) also are about as likely as White evangelicals (94%) and Black Protestants (88%) to say they believe in God as described in the Bible.

https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2021/05/13/jews-in-u-s-are-far-less-religious-than-christians-and-americans-overall-at-least-by-traditional-measures/

So Jewish people are less religious, overall. That’s reality, but apparently the Jewish people who believe in Jesus are the only Jewish people that are not accepted by Jewish people and are actively disliked, and considered to be destroying Judaism and “giving the finger” to all Jews present and past.”

It has been explained that Jewish people can be completely atheist and they are fine, and only Orthodox Jewish people are consistently “religious” according to Pew. That’s ok, but once a person believes Jesus is the Son of God, they are disowned and set apart from the Jewish people.

Correct, a Jew who professes to believe in Jesus is an apostate and no longer a Jew according to … pretty much every single Jew in existence. Jews of course are diverse in their beliefs on other criteria, but this is the one thing they can all agree on: Jesus is not the Messiah.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:There are even bigger gaps when it comes to belief in God. About a quarter of Jews (26%) say they believe in God as described in the Bible, compared with more than half of U.S. adults overall (56%) and eight-in-ten Christians. Jews are more likely than U.S. adults overall (50% vs. 33%) to say they believe in some other spiritual force or higher power, but not in God as described in the Bible. Jewish adults also are twice as likely as the general public to say they do not believe in any kind of higher power or spiritual force in the universe (22% vs. 10%).

Orthodox Jews – who make up 9% of all U.S. Jews – are a notable exception. They are among the most highly religious groups in U.S. society by these measures. For example, 86% of Orthodox Jews say religion is very important in their lives, as do 78% of Black Protestants and 76% of White evangelical Protestants, two of the most highly religious Christian subgroups. Orthodox Jews (93%) also are about as likely as White evangelicals (94%) and Black Protestants (88%) to say they believe in God as described in the Bible.

https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2021/05/13/jews-in-u-s-are-far-less-religious-than-christians-and-americans-overall-at-least-by-traditional-measures/

So Jewish people are less religious, overall. That’s reality, but apparently the Jewish people who believe in Jesus are the only Jewish people that are not accepted by Jewish people and are actively disliked, and considered to be destroying Judaism and “giving the finger” to all Jews present and past.”

It has been explained that Jewish people can be completely atheist and they are fine, and only Orthodox Jewish people are consistently “religious” according to Pew. That’s ok, but once a person believes Jesus is the Son of God, they are disowned and set apart from the Jewish people.

What the data you quoted shows is that there are many acceptable ways to be Jewish, including atheism. But Jesus still isn't one of the ways to be Jewish.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There are even bigger gaps when it comes to belief in God. About a quarter of Jews (26%) say they believe in God as described in the Bible, compared with more than half of U.S. adults overall (56%) and eight-in-ten Christians. Jews are more likely than U.S. adults overall (50% vs. 33%) to say they believe in some other spiritual force or higher power, but not in God as described in the Bible. Jewish adults also are twice as likely as the general public to say they do not believe in any kind of higher power or spiritual force in the universe (22% vs. 10%).

Orthodox Jews – who make up 9% of all U.S. Jews – are a notable exception. They are among the most highly religious groups in U.S. society by these measures. For example, 86% of Orthodox Jews say religion is very important in their lives, as do 78% of Black Protestants and 76% of White evangelical Protestants, two of the most highly religious Christian subgroups. Orthodox Jews (93%) also are about as likely as White evangelicals (94%) and Black Protestants (88%) to say they believe in God as described in the Bible.

https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2021/05/13/jews-in-u-s-are-far-less-religious-than-christians-and-americans-overall-at-least-by-traditional-measures/

So Jewish people are less religious, overall. That’s reality, but apparently the Jewish people who believe in Jesus are the only Jewish people that are not accepted by Jewish people and are actively disliked, and considered to be destroying Judaism and “giving the finger” to all Jews present and past.”

It has been explained that Jewish people can be completely atheist and they are fine, and only Orthodox Jewish people are consistently “religious” according to Pew. That’s ok, but once a person believes Jesus is the Son of God, they are disowned and set apart from the Jewish people.

Correct, a Jew who professes to believe in Jesus is an apostate and no longer a Jew according to … pretty much every single Jew in existence. Jews of course are diverse in their beliefs on other criteria, but this is the one thing they can all agree on: Jesus is not the Messiah.

But a Jew who doesn’t believe in God is not an apostate?

[Anonymous]

Correct, a Jew who professes to believe in Jesus is an apostate and no longer a Jew according to … pretty much every single Jew in existence. Jews of course are diverse in their beliefs on other criteria, but this is the one thing they can all agree on: Jesus is not the Messiah.


I don't think Jews who believe in Jesus are apostates. I think they are Christians.

[Anonymous]

The part that is interesting to me about this thread is that: (1) Jewish people in this thread are correctly stating that only Jewish people get to define who is Jewish and (2) those same posters are labeling Messianic [___] as Christian.

I totally get and respect No. 1 above, but I don’t think posters asking for the respect to determine who is their community should be telling others what another religion is.

Messianic [___] (a) do not fully assent to either the Apostle’s Creed or Nicene Creed; (b) do not recognize the Holy Trinity as the divine nature of God (in particular the Holy Spirit); (c) do not believe that the redemption of the crucifixion replaced the Mosaic Covenant; (d) do not practice a sacramental life that would be recognizable to Christians (in particular the Eucharist and how Catholics and Eastern Orthodox make that foundational to their practices); and (e) do not believe that Jesus founded the Christian Church.

All of these, but in particular (b), (c) and (e), are just massive, fundamental issues to every Christian denomination. And with (d) even non-observing Christian denominations disagree with Messianic [___] teaching on the meaning and purpose of The Last Supper. No matter how far a Christian stretches the boundaries on ecumenicalism I don’t see how to get there with Messianic [___]. Indeed, after briefly skimming their materials, it doesn’t appear that the Messianic [___] people believe themselves to be in communion with any Christians and they themselves attack developed Christian teachings.

I respect that the Jewish Community gets to define who is Jewish. Perhaps that respect could be mutually extended to the Christian Community because this group discussed here are not Christian, either. They should not be called that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The part that is interesting to me about this thread is that: (1) Jewish people in this thread are correctly stating that only Jewish people get to define who is Jewish and (2) those same posters are labeling Messianic [___] as Christian.

I totally get and respect No. 1 above, but I don’t think posters asking for the respect to determine who is their community should be telling others what another religion is.

Messianic [___] (a) do not fully assent to either the Apostle’s Creed or Nicene Creed; (b) do not recognize the Holy Trinity as the divine nature of God (in particular the Holy Spirit); (c) do not believe that the redemption of the crucifixion replaced the Mosaic Covenant; (d) do not practice a sacramental life that would be recognizable to Christians (in particular the Eucharist and how Catholics and Eastern Orthodox make that foundational to their practices); and (e) do not believe that Jesus founded the Christian Church.

All of these, but in particular (b), (c) and (e), are just massive, fundamental issues to every Christian denomination. And with (d) even non-observing Christian denominations disagree with Messianic [___] teaching on the meaning and purpose of The Last Supper. No matter how far a Christian stretches the boundaries on ecumenicalism I don’t see how to get there with Messianic [___]. Indeed, after briefly skimming their materials, it doesn’t appear that the Messianic [___] people believe themselves to be in communion with any Christians and they themselves attack developed Christian teachings.

I respect that the Jewish Community gets to define who is Jewish. Perhaps that respect could be mutually extended to the Christian Community because this group discussed here are not Christian, either. They should not be called that.

It's news to me (grew up Protestant, converted to Judaism) that there is more necessary to Christianity than belief in Christ (and usually baptism in Jesus' name). Of course, I know the Nicene and Apostle's creeds thanks to my confirmation classes, but people can be Christian without having learned those yet. New converts and children, for example.

That said, I understand you not wanting to include Messianics in Christianity.

[Anonymous]

Judaism has been centered on God from the beginning.

Jewish identity had been defined biologically. According to rabbinic Judaism, if one’s mother was Jewish, than one was Jewish, regardless of one’s actions or beliefs.


Referring to his thirteen principles, however, Maimonides wrote: “When all these foundations are perfectly understood and believed in by a person, he enters the community of Israel, and one is obligated to love and pity him in all ways in which the Creator has commanded that one should act towards his brother.” For Maimonides, one was not Jewish–at least not fully Jewish–if one did not believe in God and in the other tenets of belief that he outlined.

Maimonidestext annotation indicator--also known as Rabbi Moshe ben Maimon, or Rambam--compiled and composed the thirteen principles of Jewish faith. He is often compared in greatness to Moses and towers above his peers among medieval Jewish thinkers and leaders.

The thirteen principles of faith are included in every Jewish prayer book, and are recited as a liturgical hymn at the conclusion of a Friday or Festival service. This recitation is known as the Yigdaltext annotation indicator and embodies Judaism's fundamental pillars of trandional belief, just as the Apostles' or the Nicene Creeds do for Christians.

Principle 1



I believe by complete faith that the Creator, blessed be His name, is the Creator and Guide for all created beings. He alone made, makes, and will make all that is created.

Principle 2



I believe by complete faith that the Creator, blessed be His name, is a Unity, and there is no union in any way like Him. He alone is our God, who was, who is, and who is to be.

Principle 3



I believe by complete faith that the Creator, blessed be His name, is not a body, is not affected by physical matter, and nothing whatsoever can compare to Him [or be compared with Him].

Principle 4



I believe by complete faith that the Creator, blessed be His name, is the first and is the last.

Principle 5



I believe by complete faith that the Creator, blessed be His name, to Him alone is it fitting to make prayer and to another prayer shall not be made.

Principle 6



I believe by complete faith that all the words of the prophets are true.

Principle 7



I believe by complete faith that the prophesy of Moses our teacher, may peace rest upon him, was true and that he was the father of all prophets that preceded him as well as all that came after him.

Principle 8



I believe by complete faith that the whole Torah now found in our hands was the exact same one given to Moses, may peace rest upon him.

Principle 9



I believe by complete faith that this is the Torah, and it shall not be changed and it shall not be replaced with another from the Creator, blessed be His name.

Principle 10



I believe by complete faith that the Creator, blessed be His name, knows every action done by each human being as well as all their thoughts, as it was said, "It is He that fashions their hearts together and He ponders all ther deeds" [Ps. 33:15].

Principle 11



I believe by complete faith that the Creator, blessed be His name, rewards all who keep His commandments and punishes all those who transgress His commands.

Principle 12



I believe by complete faith in the coming of the Messiah, and even though he tarry in waiting, in spite of that, I will still wait expectantly for him each day that he will come

Principle 13



I believe by complete faith that there will be a resurrection of the dead at the time that will be pleasing before the Creator, blessed be His name, and the remembrance of Him will be exalted forever and for all eternity.

These thirteen principles of faith form the foundation for ancient Jewish belief.



So the above is considered outdated or incorrect?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Judaism has been centered on God from the beginning.

Jewish identity had been defined biologically. According to rabbinic Judaism, if one’s mother was Jewish, than one was Jewish, regardless of one’s actions or beliefs.


Referring to his thirteen principles, however, Maimonides wrote: “When all these foundations are perfectly understood and believed in by a person, he enters the community of Israel, and one is obligated to love and pity him in all ways in which the Creator has commanded that one should act towards his brother.” For Maimonides, one was not Jewish–at least not fully Jewish–if one did not believe in God and in the other tenets of belief that he outlined.

Maimonidestext annotation indicator--also known as Rabbi Moshe ben Maimon, or Rambam--compiled and composed the thirteen principles of Jewish faith. He is often compared in greatness to Moses and towers above his peers among medieval Jewish thinkers and leaders.

The thirteen principles of faith are included in every Jewish prayer book, and are recited as a liturgical hymn at the conclusion of a Friday or Festival service. This recitation is known as the Yigdaltext annotation indicator and embodies Judaism's fundamental pillars of trandional belief, just as the Apostles' or the Nicene Creeds do for Christians.

Principle 1



I believe by complete faith that the Creator, blessed be His name, is the Creator and Guide for all created beings. He alone made, makes, and will make all that is created.

Principle 2



I believe by complete faith that the Creator, blessed be His name, is a Unity, and there is no union in any way like Him. He alone is our God, who was, who is, and who is to be.

Principle 3



I believe by complete faith that the Creator, blessed be His name, is not a body, is not affected by physical matter, and nothing whatsoever can compare to Him [or be compared with Him].

Principle 4



I believe by complete faith that the Creator, blessed be His name, is the first and is the last.

Principle 5



I believe by complete faith that the Creator, blessed be His name, to Him alone is it fitting to make prayer and to another prayer shall not be made.

Principle 6



I believe by complete faith that all the words of the prophets are true.

Principle 7



I believe by complete faith that the prophesy of Moses our teacher, may peace rest upon him, was true and that he was the father of all prophets that preceded him as well as all that came after him.

Principle 8



I believe by complete faith that the whole Torah now found in our hands was the exact same one given to Moses, may peace rest upon him.

Principle 9



I believe by complete faith that this is the Torah, and it shall not be changed and it shall not be replaced with another from the Creator, blessed be His name.

Principle 10



I believe by complete faith that the Creator, blessed be His name, knows every action done by each human being as well as all their thoughts, as it was said, "It is He that fashions their hearts together and He ponders all ther deeds" [Ps. 33:15].

Principle 11



I believe by complete faith that the Creator, blessed be His name, rewards all who keep His commandments and punishes all those who transgress His commands.

Principle 12



I believe by complete faith in the coming of the Messiah, and even though he tarry in waiting, in spite of that, I will still wait expectantly for him each day that he will come

Principle 13



I believe by complete faith that there will be a resurrection of the dead at the time that will be pleasing before the Creator, blessed be His name, and the remembrance of Him will be exalted forever and for all eternity.

These thirteen principles of faith form the foundation for ancient Jewish belief.



So the above is considered outdated or incorrect?

For many, especially non-Orthodox Jews, yes, parts of Maimonides 13 Principles are not understood literally today.

For example:
-Principle 8 The Torah is from heaven. The Torah we have today is the Torah that God gave to Moses at Sinai. Most non-Orthodox Jews understand the Torah to have been written by multiple authors over many years (perhaps divinely inspired by God) and compiled later, not literally handed to us as-is by God at Sinai.

-Principle 12 The days of the Messiah will come. Again, while most/all Jews pray for the Messiah, many (most?) non-Orthodox Jews don't necessarily believe that an individual person who is the Messiah will come to deliver us. Some believe in a "Messianic age" in which there will be peace. Some understand it to be a common striving toward peace.

-Principle 13 The dead will be resurrected. Reform Judaism (and maybe other branches?) have actually changed the texts of certain prayers to remove references to resurrection, because they do not believe that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Judaism has been centered on God from the beginning.

Jewish identity had been defined biologically. According to rabbinic Judaism, if one’s mother was Jewish, than one was Jewish, regardless of one’s actions or beliefs.


Referring to his thirteen principles, however, Maimonides wrote: “When all these foundations are perfectly understood and believed in by a person, he enters the community of Israel, and one is obligated to love and pity him in all ways in which the Creator has commanded that one should act towards his brother.” For Maimonides, one was not Jewish–at least not fully Jewish–if one did not believe in God and in the other tenets of belief that he outlined.

Maimonidestext annotation indicator--also known as Rabbi Moshe ben Maimon, or Rambam--compiled and composed the thirteen principles of Jewish faith. He is often compared in greatness to Moses and towers above his peers among medieval Jewish thinkers and leaders.

The thirteen principles of faith are included in every Jewish prayer book, and are recited as a liturgical hymn at the conclusion of a Friday or Festival service. This recitation is known as the Yigdaltext annotation indicator and embodies Judaism's fundamental pillars of trandional belief, just as the Apostles' or the Nicene Creeds do for Christians.

Principle 1



I believe by complete faith that the Creator, blessed be His name, is the Creator and Guide for all created beings. He alone made, makes, and will make all that is created.

Principle 2



I believe by complete faith that the Creator, blessed be His name, is a Unity, and there is no union in any way like Him. He alone is our God, who was, who is, and who is to be.

Principle 3



I believe by complete faith that the Creator, blessed be His name, is not a body, is not affected by physical matter, and nothing whatsoever can compare to Him [or be compared with Him].

Principle 4



I believe by complete faith that the Creator, blessed be His name, is the first and is the last.

Principle 5



I believe by complete faith that the Creator, blessed be His name, to Him alone is it fitting to make prayer and to another prayer shall not be made.

Principle 6



I believe by complete faith that all the words of the prophets are true.

Principle 7



I believe by complete faith that the prophesy of Moses our teacher, may peace rest upon him, was true and that he was the father of all prophets that preceded him as well as all that came after him.

Principle 8



I believe by complete faith that the whole Torah now found in our hands was the exact same one given to Moses, may peace rest upon him.

Principle 9



I believe by complete faith that this is the Torah, and it shall not be changed and it shall not be replaced with another from the Creator, blessed be His name.

Principle 10



I believe by complete faith that the Creator, blessed be His name, knows every action done by each human being as well as all their thoughts, as it was said, "It is He that fashions their hearts together and He ponders all ther deeds" [Ps. 33:15].

Principle 11



I believe by complete faith that the Creator, blessed be His name, rewards all who keep His commandments and punishes all those who transgress His commands.

Principle 12



I believe by complete faith in the coming of the Messiah, and even though he tarry in waiting, in spite of that, I will still wait expectantly for him each day that he will come

Principle 13



I believe by complete faith that there will be a resurrection of the dead at the time that will be pleasing before the Creator, blessed be His name, and the remembrance of Him will be exalted forever and for all eternity.

These thirteen principles of faith form the foundation for ancient Jewish belief.



So the above is considered outdated or incorrect?

For many, especially non-Orthodox Jews, yes, parts of Maimonides 13 Principles are not understood literally today.

For example:
-Principle 8 The Torah is from heaven. The Torah we have today is the Torah that God gave to Moses at Sinai. Most non-Orthodox Jews understand the Torah to have been written by multiple authors over many years (perhaps divinely inspired by God) and compiled later, not literally handed to us as-is by God at Sinai.

-Principle 12 The days of the Messiah will come. Again, while most/all Jews pray for the Messiah, many (most?) non-Orthodox Jews don't necessarily believe that an individual person who is the Messiah will come to deliver us. Some believe in a "Messianic age" in which there will be peace. Some understand it to be a common striving toward peace.

-Principle 13 The dead will be resurrected. Reform Judaism (and maybe other branches?) have actually changed the texts of certain prayers to remove references to resurrection, because they do not believe that.

When did that change? Why did that change?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Judaism has been centered on God from the beginning.

Jewish identity had been defined biologically. According to rabbinic Judaism, if one’s mother was Jewish, than one was Jewish, regardless of one’s actions or beliefs.


Referring to his thirteen principles, however, Maimonides wrote: “When all these foundations are perfectly understood and believed in by a person, he enters the community of Israel, and one is obligated to love and pity him in all ways in which the Creator has commanded that one should act towards his brother.” For Maimonides, one was not Jewish–at least not fully Jewish–if one did not believe in God and in the other tenets of belief that he outlined.

Maimonidestext annotation indicator--also known as Rabbi Moshe ben Maimon, or Rambam--compiled and composed the thirteen principles of Jewish faith. He is often compared in greatness to Moses and towers above his peers among medieval Jewish thinkers and leaders.

The thirteen principles of faith are included in every Jewish prayer book, and are recited as a liturgical hymn at the conclusion of a Friday or Festival service. This recitation is known as the Yigdaltext annotation indicator and embodies Judaism's fundamental pillars of trandional belief, just as the Apostles' or the Nicene Creeds do for Christians.

Principle 1



I believe by complete faith that the Creator, blessed be His name, is the Creator and Guide for all created beings. He alone made, makes, and will make all that is created.

Principle 2



I believe by complete faith that the Creator, blessed be His name, is a Unity, and there is no union in any way like Him. He alone is our God, who was, who is, and who is to be.

Principle 3



I believe by complete faith that the Creator, blessed be His name, is not a body, is not affected by physical matter, and nothing whatsoever can compare to Him [or be compared with Him].

Principle 4



I believe by complete faith that the Creator, blessed be His name, is the first and is the last.

Principle 5



I believe by complete faith that the Creator, blessed be His name, to Him alone is it fitting to make prayer and to another prayer shall not be made.

Principle 6



I believe by complete faith that all the words of the prophets are true.

Principle 7



I believe by complete faith that the prophesy of Moses our teacher, may peace rest upon him, was true and that he was the father of all prophets that preceded him as well as all that came after him.

Principle 8



I believe by complete faith that the whole Torah now found in our hands was the exact same one given to Moses, may peace rest upon him.

Principle 9



I believe by complete faith that this is the Torah, and it shall not be changed and it shall not be replaced with another from the Creator, blessed be His name.

Principle 10



I believe by complete faith that the Creator, blessed be His name, knows every action done by each human being as well as all their thoughts, as it was said, "It is He that fashions their hearts together and He ponders all ther deeds" [Ps. 33:15].

Principle 11



I believe by complete faith that the Creator, blessed be His name, rewards all who keep His commandments and punishes all those who transgress His commands.

Principle 12



I believe by complete faith in the coming of the Messiah, and even though he tarry in waiting, in spite of that, I will still wait expectantly for him each day that he will come

Principle 13



I believe by complete faith that there will be a resurrection of the dead at the time that will be pleasing before the Creator, blessed be His name, and the remembrance of Him will be exalted forever and for all eternity.

These thirteen principles of faith form the foundation for ancient Jewish belief.



So the above is considered outdated or incorrect?

For many, especially non-Orthodox Jews, yes, parts of Maimonides 13 Principles are not understood literally today.

For example:
-Principle 8 The Torah is from heaven. The Torah we have today is the Torah that God gave to Moses at Sinai. Most non-Orthodox Jews understand the Torah to have been written by multiple authors over many years (perhaps divinely inspired by God) and compiled later, not literally handed to us as-is by God at Sinai.

-Principle 12 The days of the Messiah will come. Again, while most/all Jews pray for the Messiah, many (most?) non-Orthodox Jews don't necessarily believe that an individual person who is the Messiah will come to deliver us. Some believe in a "Messianic age" in which there will be peace. Some understand it to be a common striving toward peace.

-Principle 13 The dead will be resurrected. Reform Judaism (and maybe other branches?) have actually changed the texts of certain prayers to remove references to resurrection, because they do not believe that.

When did that change? Why did that change?

The main motivation was to annoy non-Jews on anonymous internet message boards.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Judaism has been centered on God from the beginning.

Jewish identity had been defined biologically. According to rabbinic Judaism, if one’s mother was Jewish, than one was Jewish, regardless of one’s actions or beliefs.


Referring to his thirteen principles, however, Maimonides wrote: “When all these foundations are perfectly understood and believed in by a person, he enters the community of Israel, and one is obligated to love and pity him in all ways in which the Creator has commanded that one should act towards his brother.” For Maimonides, one was not Jewish–at least not fully Jewish–if one did not believe in God and in the other tenets of belief that he outlined.

Maimonidestext annotation indicator--also known as Rabbi Moshe ben Maimon, or Rambam--compiled and composed the thirteen principles of Jewish faith. He is often compared in greatness to Moses and towers above his peers among medieval Jewish thinkers and leaders.

The thirteen principles of faith are included in every Jewish prayer book, and are recited as a liturgical hymn at the conclusion of a Friday or Festival service. This recitation is known as the Yigdaltext annotation indicator and embodies Judaism's fundamental pillars of trandional belief, just as the Apostles' or the Nicene Creeds do for Christians.

Principle 1



I believe by complete faith that the Creator, blessed be His name, is the Creator and Guide for all created beings. He alone made, makes, and will make all that is created.

Principle 2



I believe by complete faith that the Creator, blessed be His name, is a Unity, and there is no union in any way like Him. He alone is our God, who was, who is, and who is to be.

Principle 3



I believe by complete faith that the Creator, blessed be His name, is not a body, is not affected by physical matter, and nothing whatsoever can compare to Him [or be compared with Him].

Principle 4



I believe by complete faith that the Creator, blessed be His name, is the first and is the last.

Principle 5



I believe by complete faith that the Creator, blessed be His name, to Him alone is it fitting to make prayer and to another prayer shall not be made.

Principle 6



I believe by complete faith that all the words of the prophets are true.

Principle 7



I believe by complete faith that the prophesy of Moses our teacher, may peace rest upon him, was true and that he was the father of all prophets that preceded him as well as all that came after him.

Principle 8



I believe by complete faith that the whole Torah now found in our hands was the exact same one given to Moses, may peace rest upon him.

Principle 9



I believe by complete faith that this is the Torah, and it shall not be changed and it shall not be replaced with another from the Creator, blessed be His name.

Principle 10



I believe by complete faith that the Creator, blessed be His name, knows every action done by each human being as well as all their thoughts, as it was said, "It is He that fashions their hearts together and He ponders all ther deeds" [Ps. 33:15].

Principle 11



I believe by complete faith that the Creator, blessed be His name, rewards all who keep His commandments and punishes all those who transgress His commands.

Principle 12



I believe by complete faith in the coming of the Messiah, and even though he tarry in waiting, in spite of that, I will still wait expectantly for him each day that he will come

Principle 13



I believe by complete faith that there will be a resurrection of the dead at the time that will be pleasing before the Creator, blessed be His name, and the remembrance of Him will be exalted forever and for all eternity.

These thirteen principles of faith form the foundation for ancient Jewish belief.



So the above is considered outdated or incorrect?

For many, especially non-Orthodox Jews, yes, parts of Maimonides 13 Principles are not understood literally today.

For example:
-Principle 8 The Torah is from heaven. The Torah we have today is the Torah that God gave to Moses at Sinai. Most non-Orthodox Jews understand the Torah to have been written by multiple authors over many years (perhaps divinely inspired by God) and compiled later, not literally handed to us as-is by God at Sinai.

-Principle 12 The days of the Messiah will come. Again, while most/all Jews pray for the Messiah, many (most?) non-Orthodox Jews don't necessarily believe that an individual person who is the Messiah will come to deliver us. Some believe in a "Messianic age" in which there will be peace. Some understand it to be a common striving toward peace.

-Principle 13 The dead will be resurrected. Reform Judaism (and maybe other branches?) have actually changed the texts of certain prayers to remove references to resurrection, because they do not believe that.

When did that change? Why did that change?

The main motivation was to annoy non-Jews on anonymous internet message boards.

?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Judaism has been centered on God from the beginning.

Jewish identity had been defined biologically. According to rabbinic Judaism, if one’s mother was Jewish, than one was Jewish, regardless of one’s actions or beliefs.


Referring to his thirteen principles, however, Maimonides wrote: “When all these foundations are perfectly understood and believed in by a person, he enters the community of Israel, and one is obligated to love and pity him in all ways in which the Creator has commanded that one should act towards his brother.” For Maimonides, one was not Jewish–at least not fully Jewish–if one did not believe in God and in the other tenets of belief that he outlined.

Maimonidestext annotation indicator--also known as Rabbi Moshe ben Maimon, or Rambam--compiled and composed the thirteen principles of Jewish faith. He is often compared in greatness to Moses and towers above his peers among medieval Jewish thinkers and leaders.

The thirteen principles of faith are included in every Jewish prayer book, and are recited as a liturgical hymn at the conclusion of a Friday or Festival service. This recitation is known as the Yigdaltext annotation indicator and embodies Judaism's fundamental pillars of trandional belief, just as the Apostles' or the Nicene Creeds do for Christians.

Principle 1



I believe by complete faith that the Creator, blessed be His name, is the Creator and Guide for all created beings. He alone made, makes, and will make all that is created.

Principle 2



I believe by complete faith that the Creator, blessed be His name, is a Unity, and there is no union in any way like Him. He alone is our God, who was, who is, and who is to be.

Principle 3



I believe by complete faith that the Creator, blessed be His name, is not a body, is not affected by physical matter, and nothing whatsoever can compare to Him [or be compared with Him].

Principle 4



I believe by complete faith that the Creator, blessed be His name, is the first and is the last.

Principle 5



I believe by complete faith that the Creator, blessed be His name, to Him alone is it fitting to make prayer and to another prayer shall not be made.

Principle 6



I believe by complete faith that all the words of the prophets are true.

Principle 7



I believe by complete faith that the prophesy of Moses our teacher, may peace rest upon him, was true and that he was the father of all prophets that preceded him as well as all that came after him.

Principle 8



I believe by complete faith that the whole Torah now found in our hands was the exact same one given to Moses, may peace rest upon him.

Principle 9



I believe by complete faith that this is the Torah, and it shall not be changed and it shall not be replaced with another from the Creator, blessed be His name.

Principle 10



I believe by complete faith that the Creator, blessed be His name, knows every action done by each human being as well as all their thoughts, as it was said, "It is He that fashions their hearts together and He ponders all ther deeds" [Ps. 33:15].

Principle 11



I believe by complete faith that the Creator, blessed be His name, rewards all who keep His commandments and punishes all those who transgress His commands.

Principle 12



I believe by complete faith in the coming of the Messiah, and even though he tarry in waiting, in spite of that, I will still wait expectantly for him each day that he will come

Principle 13



I believe by complete faith that there will be a resurrection of the dead at the time that will be pleasing before the Creator, blessed be His name, and the remembrance of Him will be exalted forever and for all eternity.

These thirteen principles of faith form the foundation for ancient Jewish belief.



So the above is considered outdated or incorrect?

For many, especially non-Orthodox Jews, yes, parts of Maimonides 13 Principles are not understood literally today.

For example:
-Principle 8 The Torah is from heaven. The Torah we have today is the Torah that God gave to Moses at Sinai. Most non-Orthodox Jews understand the Torah to have been written by multiple authors over many years (perhaps divinely inspired by God) and compiled later, not literally handed to us as-is by God at Sinai.

-Principle 12 The days of the Messiah will come. Again, while most/all Jews pray for the Messiah, many (most?) non-Orthodox Jews don't necessarily believe that an individual person who is the Messiah will come to deliver us. Some believe in a "Messianic age" in which there will be peace. Some understand it to be a common striving toward peace.

-Principle 13 The dead will be resurrected. Reform Judaism (and maybe other branches?) have actually changed the texts of certain prayers to remove references to resurrection, because they do not believe that.

When did that change? Why did that change?

The main motivation was to annoy non-Jews on anonymous internet message boards.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Judaism has been centered on God from the beginning.

Jewish identity had been defined biologically. According to rabbinic Judaism, if one’s mother was Jewish, than one was Jewish, regardless of one’s actions or beliefs.


Referring to his thirteen principles, however, Maimonides wrote: “When all these foundations are perfectly understood and believed in by a person, he enters the community of Israel, and one is obligated to love and pity him in all ways in which the Creator has commanded that one should act towards his brother.” For Maimonides, one was not Jewish–at least not fully Jewish–if one did not believe in God and in the other tenets of belief that he outlined.

Maimonidestext annotation indicator--also known as Rabbi Moshe ben Maimon, or Rambam--compiled and composed the thirteen principles of Jewish faith. He is often compared in greatness to Moses and towers above his peers among medieval Jewish thinkers and leaders.

The thirteen principles of faith are included in every Jewish prayer book, and are recited as a liturgical hymn at the conclusion of a Friday or Festival service. This recitation is known as the Yigdaltext annotation indicator and embodies Judaism's fundamental pillars of trandional belief, just as the Apostles' or the Nicene Creeds do for Christians.

Principle 1



I believe by complete faith that the Creator, blessed be His name, is the Creator and Guide for all created beings. He alone made, makes, and will make all that is created.

Principle 2



I believe by complete faith that the Creator, blessed be His name, is a Unity, and there is no union in any way like Him. He alone is our God, who was, who is, and who is to be.

Principle 3



I believe by complete faith that the Creator, blessed be His name, is not a body, is not affected by physical matter, and nothing whatsoever can compare to Him [or be compared with Him].

Principle 4



I believe by complete faith that the Creator, blessed be His name, is the first and is the last.

Principle 5



I believe by complete faith that the Creator, blessed be His name, to Him alone is it fitting to make prayer and to another prayer shall not be made.

Principle 6



I believe by complete faith that all the words of the prophets are true.

Principle 7



I believe by complete faith that the prophesy of Moses our teacher, may peace rest upon him, was true and that he was the father of all prophets that preceded him as well as all that came after him.

Principle 8



I believe by complete faith that the whole Torah now found in our hands was the exact same one given to Moses, may peace rest upon him.

Principle 9



I believe by complete faith that this is the Torah, and it shall not be changed and it shall not be replaced with another from the Creator, blessed be His name.

Principle 10



I believe by complete faith that the Creator, blessed be His name, knows every action done by each human being as well as all their thoughts, as it was said, "It is He that fashions their hearts together and He ponders all ther deeds" [Ps. 33:15].

Principle 11



I believe by complete faith that the Creator, blessed be His name, rewards all who keep His commandments and punishes all those who transgress His commands.

Principle 12



I believe by complete faith in the coming of the Messiah, and even though he tarry in waiting, in spite of that, I will still wait expectantly for him each day that he will come

Principle 13



I believe by complete faith that there will be a resurrection of the dead at the time that will be pleasing before the Creator, blessed be His name, and the remembrance of Him will be exalted forever and for all eternity.

These thirteen principles of faith form the foundation for ancient Jewish belief.



So the above is considered outdated or incorrect?

For many, especially non-Orthodox Jews, yes, parts of Maimonides 13 Principles are not understood literally today.

For example:
-Principle 8 The Torah is from heaven. The Torah we have today is the Torah that God gave to Moses at Sinai. Most non-Orthodox Jews understand the Torah to have been written by multiple authors over many years (perhaps divinely inspired by God) and compiled later, not literally handed to us as-is by God at Sinai.

-Principle 12 The days of the Messiah will come. Again, while most/all Jews pray for the Messiah, many (most?) non-Orthodox Jews don't necessarily believe that an individual person who is the Messiah will come to deliver us. Some believe in a "Messianic age" in which there will be peace. Some understand it to be a common striving toward peace.

-Principle 13 The dead will be resurrected. Reform Judaism (and maybe other branches?) have actually changed the texts of certain prayers to remove references to resurrection, because they do not believe that.

When did that change? Why did that change?

"By the nineteenth century, this religious concept [resurrection of the dead] had become problematic. Enlightened Protestants in Western Europe affirmed the immortality of the soul, but not the bodily resurrection of the dead. Bodily resurrection was neither scientific nor spiritual. By the time of the Reform rabbinical conferences in the middle of the nineteenth century, most of the Reformers had spiritualized this belief as well." From the Reform Movement: https://www.ccarpress.org/content.asp?tid=456

That link also shares some of the ways that the Reform movement changed the wording of the prayer over time.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Judaism has been centered on God from the beginning.

Jewish identity had been defined biologically. According to rabbinic Judaism, if one’s mother was Jewish, than one was Jewish, regardless of one’s actions or beliefs.


Referring to his thirteen principles, however, Maimonides wrote: “When all these foundations are perfectly understood and believed in by a person, he enters the community of Israel, and one is obligated to love and pity him in all ways in which the Creator has commanded that one should act towards his brother.” For Maimonides, one was not Jewish–at least not fully Jewish–if one did not believe in God and in the other tenets of belief that he outlined.

Maimonidestext annotation indicator--also known as Rabbi Moshe ben Maimon, or Rambam--compiled and composed the thirteen principles of Jewish faith. He is often compared in greatness to Moses and towers above his peers among medieval Jewish thinkers and leaders.

The thirteen principles of faith are included in every Jewish prayer book, and are recited as a liturgical hymn at the conclusion of a Friday or Festival service. This recitation is known as the Yigdaltext annotation indicator and embodies Judaism's fundamental pillars of trandional belief, just as the Apostles' or the Nicene Creeds do for Christians.

Principle 1



I believe by complete faith that the Creator, blessed be His name, is the Creator and Guide for all created beings. He alone made, makes, and will make all that is created.

Principle 2



I believe by complete faith that the Creator, blessed be His name, is a Unity, and there is no union in any way like Him. He alone is our God, who was, who is, and who is to be.

Principle 3



I believe by complete faith that the Creator, blessed be His name, is not a body, is not affected by physical matter, and nothing whatsoever can compare to Him [or be compared with Him].

Principle 4



I believe by complete faith that the Creator, blessed be His name, is the first and is the last.

Principle 5



I believe by complete faith that the Creator, blessed be His name, to Him alone is it fitting to make prayer and to another prayer shall not be made.

Principle 6



I believe by complete faith that all the words of the prophets are true.

Principle 7



I believe by complete faith that the prophesy of Moses our teacher, may peace rest upon him, was true and that he was the father of all prophets that preceded him as well as all that came after him.

Principle 8



I believe by complete faith that the whole Torah now found in our hands was the exact same one given to Moses, may peace rest upon him.

Principle 9



I believe by complete faith that this is the Torah, and it shall not be changed and it shall not be replaced with another from the Creator, blessed be His name.

Principle 10



I believe by complete faith that the Creator, blessed be His name, knows every action done by each human being as well as all their thoughts, as it was said, "It is He that fashions their hearts together and He ponders all ther deeds" [Ps. 33:15].

Principle 11



I believe by complete faith that the Creator, blessed be His name, rewards all who keep His commandments and punishes all those who transgress His commands.

Principle 12



I believe by complete faith in the coming of the Messiah, and even though he tarry in waiting, in spite of that, I will still wait expectantly for him each day that he will come

Principle 13



I believe by complete faith that there will be a resurrection of the dead at the time that will be pleasing before the Creator, blessed be His name, and the remembrance of Him will be exalted forever and for all eternity.

These thirteen principles of faith form the foundation for ancient Jewish belief.



So the above is considered outdated or incorrect?

For many, especially non-Orthodox Jews, yes, parts of Maimonides 13 Principles are not understood literally today.

For example:
-Principle 8 The Torah is from heaven. The Torah we have today is the Torah that God gave to Moses at Sinai. Most non-Orthodox Jews understand the Torah to have been written by multiple authors over many years (perhaps divinely inspired by God) and compiled later, not literally handed to us as-is by God at Sinai.

-Principle 12 The days of the Messiah will come. Again, while most/all Jews pray for the Messiah, many (most?) non-Orthodox Jews don't necessarily believe that an individual person who is the Messiah will come to deliver us. Some believe in a "Messianic age" in which there will be peace. Some understand it to be a common striving toward peace.

-Principle 13 The dead will be resurrected. Reform Judaism (and maybe other branches?) have actually changed the texts of certain prayers to remove references to resurrection, because they do not believe that.

When did that change? Why did that change?

For what it's worth, even many of the (relatively small number of) Jews who DO consider themselves atheists would typically sing along with Yigdal at the close of Friday night services, at least in Conservative and (I assume) Orthodox shuls, don't know if Reform congregations usually do this prayer or not.