Question about Messianic Judaism

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s not true. They feel extra persecuted because they’re Christians who claim they’re Jewish and they don’t understand why Jews find that obnoxious and offensive.

This sounds anti-semitic. Who gets to decide who is Jewish?

Well... Jewish law has a lot of discussion about this actually. Jews get to decide who is Jewish, and Christian missionary groups that try to offer "Messianic Judaism" as a culturally sensitive way to become Christian are, in fact, antisemitic.

The Jews they are able to convert to this everything bagel-scented Christianity had weak Jewish affiliations to begin with or have psychological problems.

They see themselves as Jewish, so if you agree that Jews get to decide, then they’ve decided they’re Jews, right? You repeatedly trying to just write them off as psychologically disturbed says more about you than about them.

Jews have rules and courts where rules get decided. People don't get to just declare themselves Jewish. By definition, people who accept Jesus as the Messiah are Christians, and Christians are, by definition, not Jews.

NP. I'm curious, where and who are these courts? I can see a problem with a Messianic Jew showing up at a synagogue and proclaiming himself Jewish in front of the presiding rabbi. But control over the designation would seem to be in the hands of a group that calls itself Jewish, no? There's no Jewish pope, is there? Is there a structure like bishops?

Also, Jesus, his 12 disciples, Paul, and many others considered themselves Jewish even as they promulgated Jesus' message.

Anyone can call themselves Jewish because unlike other religions, Jews are not going to try to kill them for blasphemy. But everyone who is acting in good faith knows that someone who professes that Jesus is the Messiah is … Christian, not Jewish.

Again, who gets to decide? Who are these "everyone who is acting in good faith" who decide that some people are Jewish and others aren't?

Who gets to decide? Jews. There are rabbinical courts in Jewish communities that oversee/decide on matters of halacha (including conversions to Judaism, marriage and divorce, etc). While someone's Jewishness can't be revoked or invalidated, a Jew who rejects Judaism is an apostate. While they would be welcome to return to Judaism someday, nobody in the Jewish community is entertaining the idea that an apostate is still part of the Jewish community while they're over on the side worshipping Jesus as their Lord and Savior.

In the case of Messianic "rabbis," they shouldn't call themselves that without being ordained by a Jewish institution - there are many rabbinical schools and rabbinic councils. Ordination can be revoked for a bunch of reasons (depending on the rules of the specific council/body), including proselytizing about Jesus. If a Messianic "rabbi" was ordained outside of a Jewish movement (and no Jewish movement is going to ordain someone who professes faith in Jesus as the messiah), then they shouldn't be using the title "rabbi." That would be like me going to art school and then putting M.D. on the end of my name and trying to practice medicine.

Maybe it’s time for all religions to modernize and get with the times. The ancient rules and traditions from thousands of years ago don’t necessarily apply or fit in our modern culture and world. Especially since it seems like a lot of Jewish people are atheists and don’t even believe in God, why all the rules?

In what ways should Judaism (and "all religions") modernize? I'm a Conservative (denomination, not politics) Jew living without much problem in the modern, secular US. If your vision of "modernization" really just means throwing out traditions and basic tenets of our faith (like the fact that worshipping Jesus isn't compatible with Jewish theology), then I wholeheartedly reject that.

Not believing in God is compatible with Jewish theology, so why is belief in Jesus not compatible? At least the Jewish people who believe in JC believe in God.

I don't think you understand religion or theology. Certainly, you don't understand Judaism specifically, which, to be fair, is a complex web of religion/culture/ethnicity that many people struggle to comprehend. But I really don't know why the basics of religion in general are so difficult for you.

A person can be Jewish and atheist. There are plenty of Jewish atheists today who view God as a metaphor or see the concept of God reflected in humanity, rather than a real Creator/Deity. They find value and wisdom in the Torah and Jewish Law, even if God is not real. I attended a Shabbat service at a Conservative synagogue once where a member was invited to give the sermon and his sermon was about how he is an atheist, but belonged to the synagogue and attended regularly for the communal connection. There are many ways to plug into Judaism.

But, again, belief in Jesus as the Messiah is not Judaism. It's Christianity. Jesus has his whole own religion, so people who worship Jesus shouldn't go around pretending to be practicing Judaism.

Atheists don’t believe in God. How can something they don’t believe in be anything?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s not true. They feel extra persecuted because they’re Christians who claim they’re Jewish and they don’t understand why Jews find that obnoxious and offensive.

This sounds anti-semitic. Who gets to decide who is Jewish?

Well... Jewish law has a lot of discussion about this actually. Jews get to decide who is Jewish, and Christian missionary groups that try to offer "Messianic Judaism" as a culturally sensitive way to become Christian are, in fact, antisemitic.

The Jews they are able to convert to this everything bagel-scented Christianity had weak Jewish affiliations to begin with or have psychological problems.

They see themselves as Jewish, so if you agree that Jews get to decide, then they’ve decided they’re Jews, right? You repeatedly trying to just write them off as psychologically disturbed says more about you than about them.

Jews have rules and courts where rules get decided. People don't get to just declare themselves Jewish. By definition, people who accept Jesus as the Messiah are Christians, and Christians are, by definition, not Jews.

NP. I'm curious, where and who are these courts? I can see a problem with a Messianic Jew showing up at a synagogue and proclaiming himself Jewish in front of the presiding rabbi. But control over the designation would seem to be in the hands of a group that calls itself Jewish, no? There's no Jewish pope, is there? Is there a structure like bishops?

Also, Jesus, his 12 disciples, Paul, and many others considered themselves Jewish even as they promulgated Jesus' message.

Anyone can call themselves Jewish because unlike other religions, Jews are not going to try to kill them for blasphemy. But everyone who is acting in good faith knows that someone who professes that Jesus is the Messiah is … Christian, not Jewish.

Again, who gets to decide? Who are these "everyone who is acting in good faith" who decide that some people are Jewish and others aren't?

Who gets to decide? Jews. There are rabbinical courts in Jewish communities that oversee/decide on matters of halacha (including conversions to Judaism, marriage and divorce, etc). While someone's Jewishness can't be revoked or invalidated, a Jew who rejects Judaism is an apostate. While they would be welcome to return to Judaism someday, nobody in the Jewish community is entertaining the idea that an apostate is still part of the Jewish community while they're over on the side worshipping Jesus as their Lord and Savior.

In the case of Messianic "rabbis," they shouldn't call themselves that without being ordained by a Jewish institution - there are many rabbinical schools and rabbinic councils. Ordination can be revoked for a bunch of reasons (depending on the rules of the specific council/body), including proselytizing about Jesus. If a Messianic "rabbi" was ordained outside of a Jewish movement (and no Jewish movement is going to ordain someone who professes faith in Jesus as the messiah), then they shouldn't be using the title "rabbi." That would be like me going to art school and then putting M.D. on the end of my name and trying to practice medicine.

Maybe it’s time for all religions to modernize and get with the times. The ancient rules and traditions from thousands of years ago don’t necessarily apply or fit in our modern culture and world. Especially since it seems like a lot of Jewish people are atheists and don’t even believe in God, why all the rules?

In what ways should Judaism (and "all religions") modernize? I'm a Conservative (denomination, not politics) Jew living without much problem in the modern, secular US. If your vision of "modernization" really just means throwing out traditions and basic tenets of our faith (like the fact that worshipping Jesus isn't compatible with Jewish theology), then I wholeheartedly reject that.

Not believing in God is compatible with Jewish theology, so why is belief in Jesus not compatible? At least the Jewish people who believe in JC believe in God.

I don't think you understand religion or theology. Certainly, you don't understand Judaism specifically, which, to be fair, is a complex web of religion/culture/ethnicity that many people struggle to comprehend. But I really don't know why the basics of religion in general are so difficult for you.

A person can be Jewish and atheist. There are plenty of Jewish atheists today who view God as a metaphor or see the concept of God reflected in humanity, rather than a real Creator/Deity. They find value and wisdom in the Torah and Jewish Law, even if God is not real. I attended a Shabbat service at a Conservative synagogue once where a member was invited to give the sermon and his sermon was about how he is an atheist, but belonged to the synagogue and attended regularly for the communal connection. There are many ways to plug into Judaism.

But, again, belief in Jesus as the Messiah is not Judaism. It's Christianity. Jesus has his whole own religion, so people who worship Jesus shouldn't go around pretending to be practicing Judaism.

It’s nonsensical to allow some Jewish people to make up their own rules about being Jewish, but not others.

Look, there are very few hard and fast rules in Judaism. There are lots of ways to be Jewish. We love to argue and debate. Two Jews, Three Opinions. Rabbis disagreeing with each other about Jewish Law across the centuries (see: the Talmud) is one of the major texts of our faith. That's not "making up rules about being Jewish;" it's a core component of Judaism.

But Jesus NOT being the messiah is one of the things that Jews agree on.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s not true. They feel extra persecuted because they’re Christians who claim they’re Jewish and they don’t understand why Jews find that obnoxious and offensive.

This sounds anti-semitic. Who gets to decide who is Jewish?

Well... Jewish law has a lot of discussion about this actually. Jews get to decide who is Jewish, and Christian missionary groups that try to offer "Messianic Judaism" as a culturally sensitive way to become Christian are, in fact, antisemitic.

The Jews they are able to convert to this everything bagel-scented Christianity had weak Jewish affiliations to begin with or have psychological problems.

They see themselves as Jewish, so if you agree that Jews get to decide, then they’ve decided they’re Jews, right? You repeatedly trying to just write them off as psychologically disturbed says more about you than about them.

Jews have rules and courts where rules get decided. People don't get to just declare themselves Jewish. By definition, people who accept Jesus as the Messiah are Christians, and Christians are, by definition, not Jews.

NP. I'm curious, where and who are these courts? I can see a problem with a Messianic Jew showing up at a synagogue and proclaiming himself Jewish in front of the presiding rabbi. But control over the designation would seem to be in the hands of a group that calls itself Jewish, no? There's no Jewish pope, is there? Is there a structure like bishops?

Also, Jesus, his 12 disciples, Paul, and many others considered themselves Jewish even as they promulgated Jesus' message.

Anyone can call themselves Jewish because unlike other religions, Jews are not going to try to kill them for blasphemy. But everyone who is acting in good faith knows that someone who professes that Jesus is the Messiah is … Christian, not Jewish.

Again, who gets to decide? Who are these "everyone who is acting in good faith" who decide that some people are Jewish and others aren't?

Who gets to decide? Jews. There are rabbinical courts in Jewish communities that oversee/decide on matters of halacha (including conversions to Judaism, marriage and divorce, etc). While someone's Jewishness can't be revoked or invalidated, a Jew who rejects Judaism is an apostate. While they would be welcome to return to Judaism someday, nobody in the Jewish community is entertaining the idea that an apostate is still part of the Jewish community while they're over on the side worshipping Jesus as their Lord and Savior.

In the case of Messianic "rabbis," they shouldn't call themselves that without being ordained by a Jewish institution - there are many rabbinical schools and rabbinic councils. Ordination can be revoked for a bunch of reasons (depending on the rules of the specific council/body), including proselytizing about Jesus. If a Messianic "rabbi" was ordained outside of a Jewish movement (and no Jewish movement is going to ordain someone who professes faith in Jesus as the messiah), then they shouldn't be using the title "rabbi." That would be like me going to art school and then putting M.D. on the end of my name and trying to practice medicine.

Maybe it’s time for all religions to modernize and get with the times. The ancient rules and traditions from thousands of years ago don’t necessarily apply or fit in our modern culture and world. Especially since it seems like a lot of Jewish people are atheists and don’t even believe in God, why all the rules?

In what ways should Judaism (and "all religions") modernize? I'm a Conservative (denomination, not politics) Jew living without much problem in the modern, secular US. If your vision of "modernization" really just means throwing out traditions and basic tenets of our faith (like the fact that worshipping Jesus isn't compatible with Jewish theology), then I wholeheartedly reject that.

Not believing in God is compatible with Jewish theology, so why is belief in Jesus not compatible? At least the Jewish people who believe in JC believe in God.

I don't think you understand religion or theology. Certainly, you don't understand Judaism specifically, which, to be fair, is a complex web of religion/culture/ethnicity that many people struggle to comprehend. But I really don't know why the basics of religion in general are so difficult for you.

A person can be Jewish and atheist. There are plenty of Jewish atheists today who view God as a metaphor or see the concept of God reflected in humanity, rather than a real Creator/Deity. They find value and wisdom in the Torah and Jewish Law, even if God is not real. I attended a Shabbat service at a Conservative synagogue once where a member was invited to give the sermon and his sermon was about how he is an atheist, but belonged to the synagogue and attended regularly for the communal connection. There are many ways to plug into Judaism.

But, again, belief in Jesus as the Messiah is not Judaism. It's Christianity. Jesus has his whole own religion, so people who worship Jesus shouldn't go around pretending to be practicing Judaism.

It’s nonsensical to allow some Jewish people to make up their own rules about being Jewish, but not others.

Look, there are very few hard and fast rules in Judaism. There are lots of ways to be Jewish. We love to argue and debate. Two Jews, Three Opinions. Rabbis disagreeing with each other about Jewish Law across the centuries (see: the Talmud) is one of the major texts of our faith. That's not "making up rules about being Jewish;" it's a core component of Judaism.

But Jesus NOT being the messiah is one of the things that Jews agree on.

Judaism is based upon God, God is the #1 core component of Judaism. How is denying the God of the Jews existing compatible with Judaism?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s not true. They feel extra persecuted because they’re Christians who claim they’re Jewish and they don’t understand why Jews find that obnoxious and offensive.

This sounds anti-semitic. Who gets to decide who is Jewish?

Well... Jewish law has a lot of discussion about this actually. Jews get to decide who is Jewish, and Christian missionary groups that try to offer "Messianic Judaism" as a culturally sensitive way to become Christian are, in fact, antisemitic.

The Jews they are able to convert to this everything bagel-scented Christianity had weak Jewish affiliations to begin with or have psychological problems.

They see themselves as Jewish, so if you agree that Jews get to decide, then they’ve decided they’re Jews, right? You repeatedly trying to just write them off as psychologically disturbed says more about you than about them.

Jews have rules and courts where rules get decided. People don't get to just declare themselves Jewish. By definition, people who accept Jesus as the Messiah are Christians, and Christians are, by definition, not Jews.

NP. I'm curious, where and who are these courts? I can see a problem with a Messianic Jew showing up at a synagogue and proclaiming himself Jewish in front of the presiding rabbi. But control over the designation would seem to be in the hands of a group that calls itself Jewish, no? There's no Jewish pope, is there? Is there a structure like bishops?

Also, Jesus, his 12 disciples, Paul, and many others considered themselves Jewish even as they promulgated Jesus' message.

Anyone can call themselves Jewish because unlike other religions, Jews are not going to try to kill them for blasphemy. But everyone who is acting in good faith knows that someone who professes that Jesus is the Messiah is … Christian, not Jewish.

Again, who gets to decide? Who are these "everyone who is acting in good faith" who decide that some people are Jewish and others aren't?

Who gets to decide? Jews. There are rabbinical courts in Jewish communities that oversee/decide on matters of halacha (including conversions to Judaism, marriage and divorce, etc). While someone's Jewishness can't be revoked or invalidated, a Jew who rejects Judaism is an apostate. While they would be welcome to return to Judaism someday, nobody in the Jewish community is entertaining the idea that an apostate is still part of the Jewish community while they're over on the side worshipping Jesus as their Lord and Savior.

In the case of Messianic "rabbis," they shouldn't call themselves that without being ordained by a Jewish institution - there are many rabbinical schools and rabbinic councils. Ordination can be revoked for a bunch of reasons (depending on the rules of the specific council/body), including proselytizing about Jesus. If a Messianic "rabbi" was ordained outside of a Jewish movement (and no Jewish movement is going to ordain someone who professes faith in Jesus as the messiah), then they shouldn't be using the title "rabbi." That would be like me going to art school and then putting M.D. on the end of my name and trying to practice medicine.

Maybe it’s time for all religions to modernize and get with the times. The ancient rules and traditions from thousands of years ago don’t necessarily apply or fit in our modern culture and world. Especially since it seems like a lot of Jewish people are atheists and don’t even believe in God, why all the rules?

In what ways should Judaism (and "all religions") modernize? I'm a Conservative (denomination, not politics) Jew living without much problem in the modern, secular US. If your vision of "modernization" really just means throwing out traditions and basic tenets of our faith (like the fact that worshipping Jesus isn't compatible with Jewish theology), then I wholeheartedly reject that.

Not believing in God is compatible with Jewish theology, so why is belief in Jesus not compatible? At least the Jewish people who believe in JC believe in God.

I don't think you understand religion or theology. Certainly, you don't understand Judaism specifically, which, to be fair, is a complex web of religion/culture/ethnicity that many people struggle to comprehend. But I really don't know why the basics of religion in general are so difficult for you.

A person can be Jewish and atheist. There are plenty of Jewish atheists today who view God as a metaphor or see the concept of God reflected in humanity, rather than a real Creator/Deity. They find value and wisdom in the Torah and Jewish Law, even if God is not real. I attended a Shabbat service at a Conservative synagogue once where a member was invited to give the sermon and his sermon was about how he is an atheist, but belonged to the synagogue and attended regularly for the communal connection. There are many ways to plug into Judaism.

But, again, belief in Jesus as the Messiah is not Judaism. It's Christianity. Jesus has his whole own religion, so people who worship Jesus shouldn't go around pretending to be practicing Judaism.

It’s nonsensical to allow some Jewish people to make up their own rules about being Jewish, but not others.

Look, there are very few hard and fast rules in Judaism. There are lots of ways to be Jewish. We love to argue and debate. Two Jews, Three Opinions. Rabbis disagreeing with each other about Jewish Law across the centuries (see: the Talmud) is one of the major texts of our faith. That's not "making up rules about being Jewish;" it's a core component of Judaism.

But Jesus NOT being the messiah is one of the things that Jews agree on.

Judaism is based upon God, God is the #1 core component of Judaism. How is denying the God of the Jews existing compatible with Judaism?

It is very easy to Google "Jewish atheism" and find examples of Jewish thought on the subject. I'll include a few good sources below if you'd like to read more about it.

My Jewish Learning: https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/must-a-jew-believe-in-god/
The Jewish Chronicle: https://www.thejc.com/lets-talk/thank-god-im-an-atheist-and-so-is-my-rabbi-grteqge3
Haaretz: https://www.haaretz.com/jewish/2015-08-04/ty-article/.premium/i-found-atheism-through-judaism/0000017f-f4b3-d887-a7ff-fcf7963b0000
Tablet Magazine: https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/community/articles/the-minyan-jewish-atheists

Some highlights from those articles:
-Jewish atheists feel that their participation in Jewish communal life and Jewish rituals is enough, without need for belief in God.
-Jewish atheists see the concept of God in the Torah as symbolic, not a literal Being. The religious concepts and imagery can have meaning, even without a supernatural deity behind them.
-Judaism is a religion that focuses more on action than belief.
-Jewish law and ritual provides structure and purpose for our lives, regardless of belief in a real God.

But, again, Jewish theology allows for a lot of debate and differing viewpoints. One of the very few sticking points is belief in Jesus as the messiah and savior.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s not true. They feel extra persecuted because they’re Christians who claim they’re Jewish and they don’t understand why Jews find that obnoxious and offensive.

This sounds anti-semitic. Who gets to decide who is Jewish?

Well... Jewish law has a lot of discussion about this actually. Jews get to decide who is Jewish, and Christian missionary groups that try to offer "Messianic Judaism" as a culturally sensitive way to become Christian are, in fact, antisemitic.

The Jews they are able to convert to this everything bagel-scented Christianity had weak Jewish affiliations to begin with or have psychological problems.

They see themselves as Jewish, so if you agree that Jews get to decide, then they’ve decided they’re Jews, right? You repeatedly trying to just write them off as psychologically disturbed says more about you than about them.

Jews have rules and courts where rules get decided. People don't get to just declare themselves Jewish. By definition, people who accept Jesus as the Messiah are Christians, and Christians are, by definition, not Jews.

NP. I'm curious, where and who are these courts? I can see a problem with a Messianic Jew showing up at a synagogue and proclaiming himself Jewish in front of the presiding rabbi. But control over the designation would seem to be in the hands of a group that calls itself Jewish, no? There's no Jewish pope, is there? Is there a structure like bishops?

Also, Jesus, his 12 disciples, Paul, and many others considered themselves Jewish even as they promulgated Jesus' message.

Anyone can call themselves Jewish because unlike other religions, Jews are not going to try to kill them for blasphemy. But everyone who is acting in good faith knows that someone who professes that Jesus is the Messiah is … Christian, not Jewish.

Again, who gets to decide? Who are these "everyone who is acting in good faith" who decide that some people are Jewish and others aren't?

Who gets to decide? Jews. There are rabbinical courts in Jewish communities that oversee/decide on matters of halacha (including conversions to Judaism, marriage and divorce, etc). While someone's Jewishness can't be revoked or invalidated, a Jew who rejects Judaism is an apostate. While they would be welcome to return to Judaism someday, nobody in the Jewish community is entertaining the idea that an apostate is still part of the Jewish community while they're over on the side worshipping Jesus as their Lord and Savior.

In the case of Messianic "rabbis," they shouldn't call themselves that without being ordained by a Jewish institution - there are many rabbinical schools and rabbinic councils. Ordination can be revoked for a bunch of reasons (depending on the rules of the specific council/body), including proselytizing about Jesus. If a Messianic "rabbi" was ordained outside of a Jewish movement (and no Jewish movement is going to ordain someone who professes faith in Jesus as the messiah), then they shouldn't be using the title "rabbi." That would be like me going to art school and then putting M.D. on the end of my name and trying to practice medicine.

Maybe it’s time for all religions to modernize and get with the times. The ancient rules and traditions from thousands of years ago don’t necessarily apply or fit in our modern culture and world. Especially since it seems like a lot of Jewish people are atheists and don’t even believe in God, why all the rules?

In what ways should Judaism (and "all religions") modernize? I'm a Conservative (denomination, not politics) Jew living without much problem in the modern, secular US. If your vision of "modernization" really just means throwing out traditions and basic tenets of our faith (like the fact that worshipping Jesus isn't compatible with Jewish theology), then I wholeheartedly reject that.

Not believing in God is compatible with Jewish theology, so why is belief in Jesus not compatible? At least the Jewish people who believe in JC believe in God.

I don't think you understand religion or theology. Certainly, you don't understand Judaism specifically, which, to be fair, is a complex web of religion/culture/ethnicity that many people struggle to comprehend. But I really don't know why the basics of religion in general are so difficult for you.

A person can be Jewish and atheist. There are plenty of Jewish atheists today who view God as a metaphor or see the concept of God reflected in humanity, rather than a real Creator/Deity. They find value and wisdom in the Torah and Jewish Law, even if God is not real. I attended a Shabbat service at a Conservative synagogue once where a member was invited to give the sermon and his sermon was about how he is an atheist, but belonged to the synagogue and attended regularly for the communal connection. There are many ways to plug into Judaism.

But, again, belief in Jesus as the Messiah is not Judaism. It's Christianity. Jesus has his whole own religion, so people who worship Jesus shouldn't go around pretending to be practicing Judaism.

It’s nonsensical to allow some Jewish people to make up their own rules about being Jewish, but not others.

Look, there are very few hard and fast rules in Judaism. There are lots of ways to be Jewish. We love to argue and debate. Two Jews, Three Opinions. Rabbis disagreeing with each other about Jewish Law across the centuries (see: the Talmud) is one of the major texts of our faith. That's not "making up rules about being Jewish;" it's a core component of Judaism.

But Jesus NOT being the messiah is one of the things that Jews agree on.

Keep trying 😂

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s not true. They feel extra persecuted because they’re Christians who claim they’re Jewish and they don’t understand why Jews find that obnoxious and offensive.

This sounds anti-semitic. Who gets to decide who is Jewish?

Well... Jewish law has a lot of discussion about this actually. Jews get to decide who is Jewish, and Christian missionary groups that try to offer "Messianic Judaism" as a culturally sensitive way to become Christian are, in fact, antisemitic.

The Jews they are able to convert to this everything bagel-scented Christianity had weak Jewish affiliations to begin with or have psychological problems.

They see themselves as Jewish, so if you agree that Jews get to decide, then they’ve decided they’re Jews, right? You repeatedly trying to just write them off as psychologically disturbed says more about you than about them.

Jews have rules and courts where rules get decided. People don't get to just declare themselves Jewish. By definition, people who accept Jesus as the Messiah are Christians, and Christians are, by definition, not Jews.

NP. I'm curious, where and who are these courts? I can see a problem with a Messianic Jew showing up at a synagogue and proclaiming himself Jewish in front of the presiding rabbi. But control over the designation would seem to be in the hands of a group that calls itself Jewish, no? There's no Jewish pope, is there? Is there a structure like bishops?

Also, Jesus, his 12 disciples, Paul, and many others considered themselves Jewish even as they promulgated Jesus' message.

Anyone can call themselves Jewish because unlike other religions, Jews are not going to try to kill them for blasphemy. But everyone who is acting in good faith knows that someone who professes that Jesus is the Messiah is … Christian, not Jewish.

Again, who gets to decide? Who are these "everyone who is acting in good faith" who decide that some people are Jewish and others aren't?

Who gets to decide? Jews. There are rabbinical courts in Jewish communities that oversee/decide on matters of halacha (including conversions to Judaism, marriage and divorce, etc). While someone's Jewishness can't be revoked or invalidated, a Jew who rejects Judaism is an apostate. While they would be welcome to return to Judaism someday, nobody in the Jewish community is entertaining the idea that an apostate is still part of the Jewish community while they're over on the side worshipping Jesus as their Lord and Savior.

In the case of Messianic "rabbis," they shouldn't call themselves that without being ordained by a Jewish institution - there are many rabbinical schools and rabbinic councils. Ordination can be revoked for a bunch of reasons (depending on the rules of the specific council/body), including proselytizing about Jesus. If a Messianic "rabbi" was ordained outside of a Jewish movement (and no Jewish movement is going to ordain someone who professes faith in Jesus as the messiah), then they shouldn't be using the title "rabbi." That would be like me going to art school and then putting M.D. on the end of my name and trying to practice medicine.

Maybe it’s time for all religions to modernize and get with the times. The ancient rules and traditions from thousands of years ago don’t necessarily apply or fit in our modern culture and world. Especially since it seems like a lot of Jewish people are atheists and don’t even believe in God, why all the rules?

In what ways should Judaism (and "all religions") modernize? I'm a Conservative (denomination, not politics) Jew living without much problem in the modern, secular US. If your vision of "modernization" really just means throwing out traditions and basic tenets of our faith (like the fact that worshipping Jesus isn't compatible with Jewish theology), then I wholeheartedly reject that.

Not believing in God is compatible with Jewish theology, so why is belief in Jesus not compatible? At least the Jewish people who believe in JC believe in God.

I don't think you understand religion or theology. Certainly, you don't understand Judaism specifically, which, to be fair, is a complex web of religion/culture/ethnicity that many people struggle to comprehend. But I really don't know why the basics of religion in general are so difficult for you.

A person can be Jewish and atheist. There are plenty of Jewish atheists today who view God as a metaphor or see the concept of God reflected in humanity, rather than a real Creator/Deity. They find value and wisdom in the Torah and Jewish Law, even if God is not real. I attended a Shabbat service at a Conservative synagogue once where a member was invited to give the sermon and his sermon was about how he is an atheist, but belonged to the synagogue and attended regularly for the communal connection. There are many ways to plug into Judaism.

But, again, belief in Jesus as the Messiah is not Judaism. It's Christianity. Jesus has his whole own religion, so people who worship Jesus shouldn't go around pretending to be practicing Judaism.

It’s nonsensical to allow some Jewish people to make up their own rules about being Jewish, but not others.

Look, there are very few hard and fast rules in Judaism. There are lots of ways to be Jewish. We love to argue and debate. Two Jews, Three Opinions. Rabbis disagreeing with each other about Jewish Law across the centuries (see: the Talmud) is one of the major texts of our faith. That's not "making up rules about being Jewish;" it's a core component of Judaism.

But Jesus NOT being the messiah is one of the things that Jews agree on.

Judaism is based upon God, God is the #1 core component of Judaism. How is denying the God of the Jews existing compatible with Judaism?

It is very easy to Google "Jewish atheism" and find examples of Jewish thought on the subject. I'll include a few good sources below if you'd like to read more about it.

My Jewish Learning: https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/must-a-jew-believe-in-god/
The Jewish Chronicle: https://www.thejc.com/lets-talk/thank-god-im-an-atheist-and-so-is-my-rabbi-grteqge3
Haaretz: https://www.haaretz.com/jewish/2015-08-04/ty-article/.premium/i-found-atheism-through-judaism/0000017f-f4b3-d887-a7ff-fcf7963b0000
Tablet Magazine: https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/community/articles/the-minyan-jewish-atheists

Some highlights from those articles:
-Jewish atheists feel that their participation in Jewish communal life and Jewish rituals is enough, without need for belief in God.
-Jewish atheists see the concept of God in the Torah as symbolic, not a literal Being. The religious concepts and imagery can have meaning, even without a supernatural deity behind them.
-Judaism is a religion that focuses more on action than belief.
-Jewish law and ritual provides structure and purpose for our lives, regardless of belief in a real God.

But, again, Jewish theology allows for a lot of debate and differing viewpoints. One of the very few sticking points is belief in Jesus as the messiah and savior.

It doesn’t make sense to accept people who deny God exists. Without God, there is no Judaism. People who don’t believe in God don’t believe that God is a symbol or metaphor, because they don’t believe God exists. You can’t get something from nothing.

Nothing is nothing. You can’t have it both ways; He either exists or he doesn’t.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s not true. They feel extra persecuted because they’re Christians who claim they’re Jewish and they don’t understand why Jews find that obnoxious and offensive.

This sounds anti-semitic. Who gets to decide who is Jewish?

Well... Jewish law has a lot of discussion about this actually. Jews get to decide who is Jewish, and Christian missionary groups that try to offer "Messianic Judaism" as a culturally sensitive way to become Christian are, in fact, antisemitic.

The Jews they are able to convert to this everything bagel-scented Christianity had weak Jewish affiliations to begin with or have psychological problems.

They see themselves as Jewish, so if you agree that Jews get to decide, then they’ve decided they’re Jews, right? You repeatedly trying to just write them off as psychologically disturbed says more about you than about them.

Jews have rules and courts where rules get decided. People don't get to just declare themselves Jewish. By definition, people who accept Jesus as the Messiah are Christians, and Christians are, by definition, not Jews.

NP. I'm curious, where and who are these courts? I can see a problem with a Messianic Jew showing up at a synagogue and proclaiming himself Jewish in front of the presiding rabbi. But control over the designation would seem to be in the hands of a group that calls itself Jewish, no? There's no Jewish pope, is there? Is there a structure like bishops?

Also, Jesus, his 12 disciples, Paul, and many others considered themselves Jewish even as they promulgated Jesus' message.

Anyone can call themselves Jewish because unlike other religions, Jews are not going to try to kill them for blasphemy. But everyone who is acting in good faith knows that someone who professes that Jesus is the Messiah is … Christian, not Jewish.

Again, who gets to decide? Who are these "everyone who is acting in good faith" who decide that some people are Jewish and others aren't?

Who gets to decide? Jews. There are rabbinical courts in Jewish communities that oversee/decide on matters of halacha (including conversions to Judaism, marriage and divorce, etc). While someone's Jewishness can't be revoked or invalidated, a Jew who rejects Judaism is an apostate. While they would be welcome to return to Judaism someday, nobody in the Jewish community is entertaining the idea that an apostate is still part of the Jewish community while they're over on the side worshipping Jesus as their Lord and Savior.

In the case of Messianic "rabbis," they shouldn't call themselves that without being ordained by a Jewish institution - there are many rabbinical schools and rabbinic councils. Ordination can be revoked for a bunch of reasons (depending on the rules of the specific council/body), including proselytizing about Jesus. If a Messianic "rabbi" was ordained outside of a Jewish movement (and no Jewish movement is going to ordain someone who professes faith in Jesus as the messiah), then they shouldn't be using the title "rabbi." That would be like me going to art school and then putting M.D. on the end of my name and trying to practice medicine.

Maybe it’s time for all religions to modernize and get with the times. The ancient rules and traditions from thousands of years ago don’t necessarily apply or fit in our modern culture and world. Especially since it seems like a lot of Jewish people are atheists and don’t even believe in God, why all the rules?

In what ways should Judaism (and "all religions") modernize? I'm a Conservative (denomination, not politics) Jew living without much problem in the modern, secular US. If your vision of "modernization" really just means throwing out traditions and basic tenets of our faith (like the fact that worshipping Jesus isn't compatible with Jewish theology), then I wholeheartedly reject that.

Not believing in God is compatible with Jewish theology, so why is belief in Jesus not compatible? At least the Jewish people who believe in JC believe in God.

I don't think you understand religion or theology. Certainly, you don't understand Judaism specifically, which, to be fair, is a complex web of religion/culture/ethnicity that many people struggle to comprehend. But I really don't know why the basics of religion in general are so difficult for you.

A person can be Jewish and atheist. There are plenty of Jewish atheists today who view God as a metaphor or see the concept of God reflected in humanity, rather than a real Creator/Deity. They find value and wisdom in the Torah and Jewish Law, even if God is not real. I attended a Shabbat service at a Conservative synagogue once where a member was invited to give the sermon and his sermon was about how he is an atheist, but belonged to the synagogue and attended regularly for the communal connection. There are many ways to plug into Judaism.

But, again, belief in Jesus as the Messiah is not Judaism. It's Christianity. Jesus has his whole own religion, so people who worship Jesus shouldn't go around pretending to be practicing Judaism.

It’s nonsensical to allow some Jewish people to make up their own rules about being Jewish, but not others.

Look, there are very few hard and fast rules in Judaism. There are lots of ways to be Jewish. We love to argue and debate. Two Jews, Three Opinions. Rabbis disagreeing with each other about Jewish Law across the centuries (see: the Talmud) is one of the major texts of our faith. That's not "making up rules about being Jewish;" it's a core component of Judaism.

But Jesus NOT being the messiah is one of the things that Jews agree on.

DP. I hope you understand how unconvincing this sounds. As pp said, these guys think they’re Jewish, so apparently self-described Jews don’t all agree on the messiah thing.

[Anonymous]

Any other actual Jews getting the feeling there's no point in continuing to discuss this with whomever is pushing here for us to recognize Jews for Jesus as Jews? They clearly don't want to understand.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s not true. They feel extra persecuted because they’re Christians who claim they’re Jewish and they don’t understand why Jews find that obnoxious and offensive.

This sounds anti-semitic. Who gets to decide who is Jewish?

Well... Jewish law has a lot of discussion about this actually. Jews get to decide who is Jewish, and Christian missionary groups that try to offer "Messianic Judaism" as a culturally sensitive way to become Christian are, in fact, antisemitic.

The Jews they are able to convert to this everything bagel-scented Christianity had weak Jewish affiliations to begin with or have psychological problems.

They see themselves as Jewish, so if you agree that Jews get to decide, then they’ve decided they’re Jews, right? You repeatedly trying to just write them off as psychologically disturbed says more about you than about them.

Jews have rules and courts where rules get decided. People don't get to just declare themselves Jewish. By definition, people who accept Jesus as the Messiah are Christians, and Christians are, by definition, not Jews.

NP. I'm curious, where and who are these courts? I can see a problem with a Messianic Jew showing up at a synagogue and proclaiming himself Jewish in front of the presiding rabbi. But control over the designation would seem to be in the hands of a group that calls itself Jewish, no? There's no Jewish pope, is there? Is there a structure like bishops?

Also, Jesus, his 12 disciples, Paul, and many others considered themselves Jewish even as they promulgated Jesus' message.

Anyone can call themselves Jewish because unlike other religions, Jews are not going to try to kill them for blasphemy. But everyone who is acting in good faith knows that someone who professes that Jesus is the Messiah is … Christian, not Jewish.

Again, who gets to decide? Who are these "everyone who is acting in good faith" who decide that some people are Jewish and others aren't?

Who gets to decide? Jews. There are rabbinical courts in Jewish communities that oversee/decide on matters of halacha (including conversions to Judaism, marriage and divorce, etc). While someone's Jewishness can't be revoked or invalidated, a Jew who rejects Judaism is an apostate. While they would be welcome to return to Judaism someday, nobody in the Jewish community is entertaining the idea that an apostate is still part of the Jewish community while they're over on the side worshipping Jesus as their Lord and Savior.

In the case of Messianic "rabbis," they shouldn't call themselves that without being ordained by a Jewish institution - there are many rabbinical schools and rabbinic councils. Ordination can be revoked for a bunch of reasons (depending on the rules of the specific council/body), including proselytizing about Jesus. If a Messianic "rabbi" was ordained outside of a Jewish movement (and no Jewish movement is going to ordain someone who professes faith in Jesus as the messiah), then they shouldn't be using the title "rabbi." That would be like me going to art school and then putting M.D. on the end of my name and trying to practice medicine.

Maybe it’s time for all religions to modernize and get with the times. The ancient rules and traditions from thousands of years ago don’t necessarily apply or fit in our modern culture and world. Especially since it seems like a lot of Jewish people are atheists and don’t even believe in God, why all the rules?

In what ways should Judaism (and "all religions") modernize? I'm a Conservative (denomination, not politics) Jew living without much problem in the modern, secular US. If your vision of "modernization" really just means throwing out traditions and basic tenets of our faith (like the fact that worshipping Jesus isn't compatible with Jewish theology), then I wholeheartedly reject that.

Not believing in God is compatible with Jewish theology, so why is belief in Jesus not compatible? At least the Jewish people who believe in JC believe in God.

I don't think you understand religion or theology. Certainly, you don't understand Judaism specifically, which, to be fair, is a complex web of religion/culture/ethnicity that many people struggle to comprehend. But I really don't know why the basics of religion in general are so difficult for you.

A person can be Jewish and atheist. There are plenty of Jewish atheists today who view God as a metaphor or see the concept of God reflected in humanity, rather than a real Creator/Deity. They find value and wisdom in the Torah and Jewish Law, even if God is not real. I attended a Shabbat service at a Conservative synagogue once where a member was invited to give the sermon and his sermon was about how he is an atheist, but belonged to the synagogue and attended regularly for the communal connection. There are many ways to plug into Judaism.

But, again, belief in Jesus as the Messiah is not Judaism. It's Christianity. Jesus has his whole own religion, so people who worship Jesus shouldn't go around pretending to be practicing Judaism.

It’s nonsensical to allow some Jewish people to make up their own rules about being Jewish, but not others.

Look, there are very few hard and fast rules in Judaism. There are lots of ways to be Jewish. We love to argue and debate. Two Jews, Three Opinions. Rabbis disagreeing with each other about Jewish Law across the centuries (see: the Talmud) is one of the major texts of our faith. That's not "making up rules about being Jewish;" it's a core component of Judaism.

But Jesus NOT being the messiah is one of the things that Jews agree on.

Judaism is based upon God, God is the #1 core component of Judaism. How is denying the God of the Jews existing compatible with Judaism?

Because Judaism isn’t especially focused on belief, the mitzvot are about actions. If you say the blessings before you eat something, for example, it doesn’t matter whether you do or don’t believe in the God you’re praising. This is not really even a particularly controversial opinion among Jews, I don’t think.

“Jesus is the Messiah and we have to accept his divinity to be saved,” however, IS a very controversial opinion among Jews. We don’t really believe in salvation or original sin the way Christianity does, so even ignoring the fact that believing Jesus is divine would violate the first commandment, the whole idea of Jesus dying for our sins is inherently non-Jewish.

Then of course you add in the fact that Jews have been slaughtered and persecuted for centuries for not believing Jesus is divine, and that just makes Jews for Jesus all the more galling. But theologically, their movement is extremely not Jewish regardless of the semiotics of it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s not true. They feel extra persecuted because they’re Christians who claim they’re Jewish and they don’t understand why Jews find that obnoxious and offensive.

This sounds anti-semitic. Who gets to decide who is Jewish?

Well... Jewish law has a lot of discussion about this actually. Jews get to decide who is Jewish, and Christian missionary groups that try to offer "Messianic Judaism" as a culturally sensitive way to become Christian are, in fact, antisemitic.

The Jews they are able to convert to this everything bagel-scented Christianity had weak Jewish affiliations to begin with or have psychological problems.

They see themselves as Jewish, so if you agree that Jews get to decide, then they’ve decided they’re Jews, right? You repeatedly trying to just write them off as psychologically disturbed says more about you than about them.

Jews have rules and courts where rules get decided. People don't get to just declare themselves Jewish. By definition, people who accept Jesus as the Messiah are Christians, and Christians are, by definition, not Jews.

NP. I'm curious, where and who are these courts? I can see a problem with a Messianic Jew showing up at a synagogue and proclaiming himself Jewish in front of the presiding rabbi. But control over the designation would seem to be in the hands of a group that calls itself Jewish, no? There's no Jewish pope, is there? Is there a structure like bishops?

Also, Jesus, his 12 disciples, Paul, and many others considered themselves Jewish even as they promulgated Jesus' message.

Anyone can call themselves Jewish because unlike other religions, Jews are not going to try to kill them for blasphemy. But everyone who is acting in good faith knows that someone who professes that Jesus is the Messiah is … Christian, not Jewish.

Again, who gets to decide? Who are these "everyone who is acting in good faith" who decide that some people are Jewish and others aren't?

Who gets to decide? Jews. There are rabbinical courts in Jewish communities that oversee/decide on matters of halacha (including conversions to Judaism, marriage and divorce, etc). While someone's Jewishness can't be revoked or invalidated, a Jew who rejects Judaism is an apostate. While they would be welcome to return to Judaism someday, nobody in the Jewish community is entertaining the idea that an apostate is still part of the Jewish community while they're over on the side worshipping Jesus as their Lord and Savior.

In the case of Messianic "rabbis," they shouldn't call themselves that without being ordained by a Jewish institution - there are many rabbinical schools and rabbinic councils. Ordination can be revoked for a bunch of reasons (depending on the rules of the specific council/body), including proselytizing about Jesus. If a Messianic "rabbi" was ordained outside of a Jewish movement (and no Jewish movement is going to ordain someone who professes faith in Jesus as the messiah), then they shouldn't be using the title "rabbi." That would be like me going to art school and then putting M.D. on the end of my name and trying to practice medicine.

Maybe it’s time for all religions to modernize and get with the times. The ancient rules and traditions from thousands of years ago don’t necessarily apply or fit in our modern culture and world. Especially since it seems like a lot of Jewish people are atheists and don’t even believe in God, why all the rules?

In what ways should Judaism (and "all religions") modernize? I'm a Conservative (denomination, not politics) Jew living without much problem in the modern, secular US. If your vision of "modernization" really just means throwing out traditions and basic tenets of our faith (like the fact that worshipping Jesus isn't compatible with Jewish theology), then I wholeheartedly reject that.

Not believing in God is compatible with Jewish theology, so why is belief in Jesus not compatible? At least the Jewish people who believe in JC believe in God.

I don't think you understand religion or theology. Certainly, you don't understand Judaism specifically, which, to be fair, is a complex web of religion/culture/ethnicity that many people struggle to comprehend. But I really don't know why the basics of religion in general are so difficult for you.

A person can be Jewish and atheist. There are plenty of Jewish atheists today who view God as a metaphor or see the concept of God reflected in humanity, rather than a real Creator/Deity. They find value and wisdom in the Torah and Jewish Law, even if God is not real. I attended a Shabbat service at a Conservative synagogue once where a member was invited to give the sermon and his sermon was about how he is an atheist, but belonged to the synagogue and attended regularly for the communal connection. There are many ways to plug into Judaism.

But, again, belief in Jesus as the Messiah is not Judaism. It's Christianity. Jesus has his whole own religion, so people who worship Jesus shouldn't go around pretending to be practicing Judaism.

It’s nonsensical to allow some Jewish people to make up their own rules about being Jewish, but not others.

Look, there are very few hard and fast rules in Judaism. There are lots of ways to be Jewish. We love to argue and debate. Two Jews, Three Opinions. Rabbis disagreeing with each other about Jewish Law across the centuries (see: the Talmud) is one of the major texts of our faith. That's not "making up rules about being Jewish;" it's a core component of Judaism.

But Jesus NOT being the messiah is one of the things that Jews agree on.

Judaism is based upon God, God is the #1 core component of Judaism. How is denying the God of the Jews existing compatible with Judaism?

It is very easy to Google "Jewish atheism" and find examples of Jewish thought on the subject. I'll include a few good sources below if you'd like to read more about it.

My Jewish Learning: https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/must-a-jew-believe-in-god/
The Jewish Chronicle: https://www.thejc.com/lets-talk/thank-god-im-an-atheist-and-so-is-my-rabbi-grteqge3
Haaretz: https://www.haaretz.com/jewish/2015-08-04/ty-article/.premium/i-found-atheism-through-judaism/0000017f-f4b3-d887-a7ff-fcf7963b0000
Tablet Magazine: https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/community/articles/the-minyan-jewish-atheists

Some highlights from those articles:
-Jewish atheists feel that their participation in Jewish communal life and Jewish rituals is enough, without need for belief in God.
-Jewish atheists see the concept of God in the Torah as symbolic, not a literal Being. The religious concepts and imagery can have meaning, even without a supernatural deity behind them.
-Judaism is a religion that focuses more on action than belief.
-Jewish law and ritual provides structure and purpose for our lives, regardless of belief in a real God.

But, again, Jewish theology allows for a lot of debate and differing viewpoints. One of the very few sticking points is belief in Jesus as the messiah and savior.

It doesn’t make sense to accept people who deny God exists. Without God, there is no Judaism. People who don’t believe in God don’t believe that God is a symbol or metaphor, because they don’t believe God exists. You can’t get something from nothing.

Nothing is nothing. You can’t have it both ways; He either exists or he doesn’t.

May I ask: Are you Jewish? You have a lot of opinions about Jewish belief in God, but I’m curious where they come from.

[Anonymous]

The people I know raised in this community were from families of non-Messianic Jews three generations ago and often devoutly so. They seemed to all have close knit faith communities, but not necessarily a physical house of worship. Some siblings converted to mainstream Judaism as adults.

Judaism can have multiple messiahs. There are also Jews who believe their rabbi is the messiah, which I imagine causes some confusion in marketing.

[Anonymous]

Yitzhak Kaduri (Hebrew: יצחק כדורי, Arabic: إسحاق قدوري), also spelled Kadouri, Kadourie, Kedourie; "Yitzhak" (c. 1898 – 28 January 2006), was a renowned Mizrahi Haredi rabbi and kabbalist who devoted his life to Torah study and prayer on behalf of the Jewish people. He taught and practiced the kavanot of the Rashash. His blessings and amulets were also widely sought to cure people of illnesses and infertility. In his life, he published no religious articles or books. At the time of his death, estimates of his age ranged from 103 to 108, and his birth year is still disputed.


In January 2006, Rabbi Kaduri was hospitalized with pneumonia in the Bikur Holim Hospital in Jerusalem. He died at around 10 p.m. January 28, 2006 (29 Tevet 5766). He was alert and lucid until his last day.

An estimated 500,000 people took part in his funeral procession on January 29, which started from the Nachalat Yitzchak Yeshivah and wound its way through the streets of Jerusalem to the Givat Shaul cemetery (also known as Har HaMenuchot) near the entrance to the city of Jerusalem.



Before his death, Kaduri had said that he expected the Mashiach, the Jewish Messiah, to arrive soon, and that he had met him a year earlier. Some of his followers claimed that he left them a hand-written note and they were reportedly instructed to only open the note after Rabbi Kaduri had been dead for one year. After this time period had passed, the note was supposedly opened by these followers and was found to read, "ירים העם ויוכיח שדברו ותורתו עומדים‎" (Yarim ha-am veyokhiakh shedvaro vetorato omdim; translated as "he will raise the people and confirm that his word and law are standing"), which, by taking the first letter of each word, reads יהושוע‎, "Yehoshua". Such acrostics are a well recognised phenomenon in the Tanakh.

Many religious Jews and counter missionaries discredit the note as a Messianic Jewish forgery.[citation needed]

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s not true. They feel extra persecuted because they’re Christians who claim they’re Jewish and they don’t understand why Jews find that obnoxious and offensive.

This sounds anti-semitic. Who gets to decide who is Jewish?

Well... Jewish law has a lot of discussion about this actually. Jews get to decide who is Jewish, and Christian missionary groups that try to offer "Messianic Judaism" as a culturally sensitive way to become Christian are, in fact, antisemitic.

The Jews they are able to convert to this everything bagel-scented Christianity had weak Jewish affiliations to begin with or have psychological problems.

They see themselves as Jewish, so if you agree that Jews get to decide, then they’ve decided they’re Jews, right? You repeatedly trying to just write them off as psychologically disturbed says more about you than about them.

Jews have rules and courts where rules get decided. People don't get to just declare themselves Jewish. By definition, people who accept Jesus as the Messiah are Christians, and Christians are, by definition, not Jews.

NP. I'm curious, where and who are these courts? I can see a problem with a Messianic Jew showing up at a synagogue and proclaiming himself Jewish in front of the presiding rabbi. But control over the designation would seem to be in the hands of a group that calls itself Jewish, no? There's no Jewish pope, is there? Is there a structure like bishops?

Also, Jesus, his 12 disciples, Paul, and many others considered themselves Jewish even as they promulgated Jesus' message.

Anyone can call themselves Jewish because unlike other religions, Jews are not going to try to kill them for blasphemy. But everyone who is acting in good faith knows that someone who professes that Jesus is the Messiah is … Christian, not Jewish.

Again, who gets to decide? Who are these "everyone who is acting in good faith" who decide that some people are Jewish and others aren't?

Who gets to decide? Jews. There are rabbinical courts in Jewish communities that oversee/decide on matters of halacha (including conversions to Judaism, marriage and divorce, etc). While someone's Jewishness can't be revoked or invalidated, a Jew who rejects Judaism is an apostate. While they would be welcome to return to Judaism someday, nobody in the Jewish community is entertaining the idea that an apostate is still part of the Jewish community while they're over on the side worshipping Jesus as their Lord and Savior.

In the case of Messianic "rabbis," they shouldn't call themselves that without being ordained by a Jewish institution - there are many rabbinical schools and rabbinic councils. Ordination can be revoked for a bunch of reasons (depending on the rules of the specific council/body), including proselytizing about Jesus. If a Messianic "rabbi" was ordained outside of a Jewish movement (and no Jewish movement is going to ordain someone who professes faith in Jesus as the messiah), then they shouldn't be using the title "rabbi." That would be like me going to art school and then putting M.D. on the end of my name and trying to practice medicine.

Maybe it’s time for all religions to modernize and get with the times. The ancient rules and traditions from thousands of years ago don’t necessarily apply or fit in our modern culture and world. Especially since it seems like a lot of Jewish people are atheists and don’t even believe in God, why all the rules?

In what ways should Judaism (and "all religions") modernize? I'm a Conservative (denomination, not politics) Jew living without much problem in the modern, secular US. If your vision of "modernization" really just means throwing out traditions and basic tenets of our faith (like the fact that worshipping Jesus isn't compatible with Jewish theology), then I wholeheartedly reject that.

Not believing in God is compatible with Jewish theology, so why is belief in Jesus not compatible? At least the Jewish people who believe in JC believe in God.

I don't think you understand religion or theology. Certainly, you don't understand Judaism specifically, which, to be fair, is a complex web of religion/culture/ethnicity that many people struggle to comprehend. But I really don't know why the basics of religion in general are so difficult for you.

A person can be Jewish and atheist. There are plenty of Jewish atheists today who view God as a metaphor or see the concept of God reflected in humanity, rather than a real Creator/Deity. They find value and wisdom in the Torah and Jewish Law, even if God is not real. I attended a Shabbat service at a Conservative synagogue once where a member was invited to give the sermon and his sermon was about how he is an atheist, but belonged to the synagogue and attended regularly for the communal connection. There are many ways to plug into Judaism.

But, again, belief in Jesus as the Messiah is not Judaism. It's Christianity. Jesus has his whole own religion, so people who worship Jesus shouldn't go around pretending to be practicing Judaism.

It’s nonsensical to allow some Jewish people to make up their own rules about being Jewish, but not others.

Look, there are very few hard and fast rules in Judaism. There are lots of ways to be Jewish. We love to argue and debate. Two Jews, Three Opinions. Rabbis disagreeing with each other about Jewish Law across the centuries (see: the Talmud) is one of the major texts of our faith. That's not "making up rules about being Jewish;" it's a core component of Judaism.

But Jesus NOT being the messiah is one of the things that Jews agree on.

DP. I hope you understand how unconvincing this sounds. As pp said, these guys think they’re Jewish, so apparently self-described Jews don’t all agree on the messiah thing.

It’s unconvincing to say that you’re not Jewish if you believe Jesus is the Messiah? Huh? Are you brain damaged? How about Christians who don’t believe in Jesus? Muslims for Jesus? Mohammed is just optional and makes a great t-shirt image?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s not true. They feel extra persecuted because they’re Christians who claim they’re Jewish and they don’t understand why Jews find that obnoxious and offensive.

This sounds anti-semitic. Who gets to decide who is Jewish?

Well... Jewish law has a lot of discussion about this actually. Jews get to decide who is Jewish, and Christian missionary groups that try to offer "Messianic Judaism" as a culturally sensitive way to become Christian are, in fact, antisemitic.

The Jews they are able to convert to this everything bagel-scented Christianity had weak Jewish affiliations to begin with or have psychological problems.

They see themselves as Jewish, so if you agree that Jews get to decide, then they’ve decided they’re Jews, right? You repeatedly trying to just write them off as psychologically disturbed says more about you than about them.

Jews have rules and courts where rules get decided. People don't get to just declare themselves Jewish. By definition, people who accept Jesus as the Messiah are Christians, and Christians are, by definition, not Jews.

NP. I'm curious, where and who are these courts? I can see a problem with a Messianic Jew showing up at a synagogue and proclaiming himself Jewish in front of the presiding rabbi. But control over the designation would seem to be in the hands of a group that calls itself Jewish, no? There's no Jewish pope, is there? Is there a structure like bishops?

Also, Jesus, his 12 disciples, Paul, and many others considered themselves Jewish even as they promulgated Jesus' message.

Anyone can call themselves Jewish because unlike other religions, Jews are not going to try to kill them for blasphemy. But everyone who is acting in good faith knows that someone who professes that Jesus is the Messiah is … Christian, not Jewish.

Again, who gets to decide? Who are these "everyone who is acting in good faith" who decide that some people are Jewish and others aren't?

Who gets to decide? Jews. There are rabbinical courts in Jewish communities that oversee/decide on matters of halacha (including conversions to Judaism, marriage and divorce, etc). While someone's Jewishness can't be revoked or invalidated, a Jew who rejects Judaism is an apostate. While they would be welcome to return to Judaism someday, nobody in the Jewish community is entertaining the idea that an apostate is still part of the Jewish community while they're over on the side worshipping Jesus as their Lord and Savior.

In the case of Messianic "rabbis," they shouldn't call themselves that without being ordained by a Jewish institution - there are many rabbinical schools and rabbinic councils. Ordination can be revoked for a bunch of reasons (depending on the rules of the specific council/body), including proselytizing about Jesus. If a Messianic "rabbi" was ordained outside of a Jewish movement (and no Jewish movement is going to ordain someone who professes faith in Jesus as the messiah), then they shouldn't be using the title "rabbi." That would be like me going to art school and then putting M.D. on the end of my name and trying to practice medicine.

Maybe it’s time for all religions to modernize and get with the times. The ancient rules and traditions from thousands of years ago don’t necessarily apply or fit in our modern culture and world. Especially since it seems like a lot of Jewish people are atheists and don’t even believe in God, why all the rules?

In what ways should Judaism (and "all religions") modernize? I'm a Conservative (denomination, not politics) Jew living without much problem in the modern, secular US. If your vision of "modernization" really just means throwing out traditions and basic tenets of our faith (like the fact that worshipping Jesus isn't compatible with Jewish theology), then I wholeheartedly reject that.

Not believing in God is compatible with Jewish theology, so why is belief in Jesus not compatible? At least the Jewish people who believe in JC believe in God.

I don't think you understand religion or theology. Certainly, you don't understand Judaism specifically, which, to be fair, is a complex web of religion/culture/ethnicity that many people struggle to comprehend. But I really don't know why the basics of religion in general are so difficult for you.

A person can be Jewish and atheist. There are plenty of Jewish atheists today who view God as a metaphor or see the concept of God reflected in humanity, rather than a real Creator/Deity. They find value and wisdom in the Torah and Jewish Law, even if God is not real. I attended a Shabbat service at a Conservative synagogue once where a member was invited to give the sermon and his sermon was about how he is an atheist, but belonged to the synagogue and attended regularly for the communal connection. There are many ways to plug into Judaism.

But, again, belief in Jesus as the Messiah is not Judaism. It's Christianity. Jesus has his whole own religion, so people who worship Jesus shouldn't go around pretending to be practicing Judaism.

It’s nonsensical to allow some Jewish people to make up their own rules about being Jewish, but not others.

Look, there are very few hard and fast rules in Judaism. There are lots of ways to be Jewish. We love to argue and debate. Two Jews, Three Opinions. Rabbis disagreeing with each other about Jewish Law across the centuries (see: the Talmud) is one of the major texts of our faith. That's not "making up rules about being Jewish;" it's a core component of Judaism.

But Jesus NOT being the messiah is one of the things that Jews agree on.

DP. I hope you understand how unconvincing this sounds. As pp said, these guys think they’re Jewish, so apparently self-described Jews don’t all agree on the messiah thing.

It’s unconvincing to say that you’re not Jewish if you believe Jesus is the Messiah? Huh? Are you brain damaged? How about Christians who don’t believe in Jesus? Muslims for Jesus? Mohammed is just optional and makes a great t-shirt image?

There are plenty of Jewish people who don’t even believe in their own God, how do you keep missing the point?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Any other actual Jews getting the feeling there's no point in continuing to discuss this with whomever is pushing here for us to recognize Jews for Jesus as Jews? They clearly don't want to understand.

Yep. I'm out.