Question about Messianic Judaism

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m Christian and there are Magas who claim to be Christian while supporting Trump’s agenda of anti-immigration, tax cuts for the rich, and cutting social services. Mormons claim to be Christian. It’s not for me to say they’re not Christian, even if Maga’s are following the antithesis of Christ’s teachings. I figure maybe they’ll “see the light” one day and embrace the real message.

But they all believe in Christ … saying you don’t think MAGAs are Christian because they don’t support social services is far different from saying someone who believes Christ is the Messiah is Christian, not Jewish.

Sometimes I just think people are really stupid. Would like to believe that is the case here, instead of being this hostile towards Judaism.

Thanks for the insult…. But pp and others have raised questions that nobody here has answered satisfactorily, despite you claiming you “answered.”

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m Christian and there are Magas who claim to be Christian while supporting Trump’s agenda of anti-immigration, tax cuts for the rich, and cutting social services. Mormons claim to be Christian. It’s not for me to say they’re not Christian, even if Maga’s are following the antithesis of Christ’s teachings. I figure maybe they’ll “see the light” one day and embrace the real message.

But they all believe in Christ … saying you don’t think MAGAs are Christian because they don’t support social services is far different from saying someone who believes Christ is the Messiah is Christian, not Jewish.

Sometimes I just think people are really stupid. Would like to believe that is the case here, instead of being this hostile towards Judaism.

I don’t think discussing Judaism is hostile. We see plenty of threads openly hostile to religion here: calling all religious people in a religion pedophiles, sex abusers, bigots, homophobes, implying religious people are less educated, etc, and those threads and comments stand. Remember the multiple threads based on the Yellowstone tv show that were used as evidence of Catholics abusing Native American children? Even after it was proven the United States government was the entity that was responsible for schools like that, ran schools like that, and that many different kind of religious organizations and religious denominations ran such schools, the threads and posters had no problem attacking Catholic people about the schools. ( I am not Catholic.)

I don’t think asking questions about a religion is hostility. Nobody is saying Jewish people can’t have their own rules or their rules are wrong. It just doesn’t make any sense. A large portion of Jewish people are seemingly atheist and accepted as religious Jews. That continues to not make sense and defies logic. Yet Messianic Jews are considered not to be Jews, and face discrimination and persecution in Israel. (I am not a Messianic Jew, I just saw that they are not only not accepted, but are discriminated against and treated as outsiders, outcasts, and aren’t allowed to practice their religion in peace.

Jewish extremists try to interrupt Messianic Jewish event in Jerusalem
Protesters attempt to break into main hall, block participants from getting to convention; police arrest activist for allegedly attacking officer

“Jewish extremists attempted to disrupt a convention of Messianic Jews in Jerusalem on Thursday. Activists from the Lehava organization, which opposes interfaith and interethnic relationships and marriages, and Or l’Achim, an organization that tries to counter Christian proselytization in Israel, tried to block participants from attending the event and attempted to break into the main hall at the Clal Center.

Police were called to the event to disperse the protesters and ensure the safety of the event. One person was arrested for allegedly attacking police at the event.

In a statement, police vowed to preserve freedom of expression and protest, “but not illegal public disturbances and rioting.”

The event at the Clal Center was hosted by the Messianic Jewish Alliance of Israel.

Messianic Judaism is a movement that combines Jewish tradition and practice with the belief that Jesus Christ is the coming messiah. It is considered outside the fold by all mainstream Jewish denominations, who say the ideology directly contradicts many of the religion’s principal tenets.“

https://www.timesofisrael.com/jewish-extremists-try-to-interrupt-messianic-jewish-event-in-jerusalem/amp/

So there are Jewish people who consider interface and inter ethnic marriage in Israel and violently oppose people they disagree with (scary, because there is a thread on this board that says the same thing) and although belief that Jesus is the Son of God is outside the fold and directly contradicts many of the religion’s principal tenets, so does atheism. Believing no God exists is outside the fold and directly contradicts many (if not most) of Jewish religious tenets. Yet atheist Jews are considered Jews. It doesn’t make sense.

+1. Jews in this forum slam Christians and Christianity all the time, with some of identifying yourselves as Jewish as you do it. I don’t see how simply asking this question, and then pressing for answers that make sense, is nearly as hostile.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There is clearly a determined Christian missionary on this thread.

There are actually determined antisemites on DCUM unfortunately.

The thread was started by someone who is Jewish, complaining about Christians.

No it wasn’t. The thread was started by someone spreading a falsehood about Jews (that they sue to stop “Messianic Jewish” congregations).

Jewish people posting here (who don’t speak for all Jewish people) have illogical and inconsistent rules about who they think should be Jewish. The thread was started by a troll (notice op never showed up again) to denigrate Christianity. It ended up discussing topics Jewish people don’t like to discuss or explain, so they start claiming antisemitism. Nobody on this thread has a right to speak for all Jewish people or claim it’s antisemitism when people discuss Judaism.

Wow. so you’re really dug in on how Jews have no right to determine even the most basic rules about their religion? I’m not sure if you actually actively dislike Jewish individuals but you are definitely anti-semitic.

It makes zero sense that a person is considered Jewish if they don’t believe in God, but are called names, disparaged, etc, because they think Jesus was the Son of God. It’s not hateful to ask why Jewish people can declare God does not exist and still be Jewish. It just doesn’t make any sense. It would seem a basic rule would be to acknowledge God exists.

Jews regard Judaism as their means of observing the Mosaic covenant, which was established between God and the Israelites, their ancestors. Judaism is the belief that God is one and is concerned with the actions of mankind. God commanded the nation of Israel to love and worship only one God. God also commanded the Jewish people to love one another; Jews are to imitate God's love for people.

So if a Jewish person is an atheist, how can they do any of these things? The person doesn’t believe the foundation of Judaism exists.

Why do you think you, non-Jewish internet rando, can díctate whay makes zero sense in a religion with a long scholarly tradition of interpreting its own rules? You seem to be attempting to insult or invalidate Judaism as a whole based on some gotcha you think is so clever. Meanwhile as has been explained to you here, Jewish theologians have given careful thought to the question. More broadly, the crisis of faith happens in all religions - the dark night of the soul. Nobody gets upset for example that Mother Teresa had basically no faith for her entire life.

This forum has a plethora of anonymous, non-*insert religious denomination* randos trying to interpret rules and play gotcha with every religion.

It doesn’t make sense that any religion that is based upon belief in a specific God would allow people who don’t believe in that God to be members of that religion. Nobody needs to disrespect or dislike someone that doesn’t have the same religious belief as they do, but including them in the religion when they deny the basis for your religion? Does your religion not have any actual meaning?

Like Satanists who claim to be Satanists, but don’t actually believe in Satan. They say Satan is a “metaphor.” There are Satanists who do believe in Satan, but the Satanic Temple says they don’t and that their religion is based on: “The Mission Of The Satanic Temple Is To Encourage Benevolence And Empathy, Reject Tyrannical Authority, Advocate Practical Common Sense, Oppose Injustice, And Undertake Noble Pursuits.” No belief in a God or gods, so why is that considered a religion?

Religion is the belief in and worship of a superhuman power or powers, especially a God or gods.

So an atheist who has no belief in God is by definition not religious. Yet they are accepted as a Jewish person in the Jewish religion.

The IRS gives religions/churches special rules, and it also seems like if a group is really not religious, they are using the IRS rules incorrectly to gain tax exemptions. It seems unethical and borderline illegal to claim to be a religion or religious and receive tax breaks meant for religious organizations while not actually having religious belief.

Are you suggesting that churches and other religious institutions should be required to expel their members who don’t believe in God or they would lose their tax exempt status?

That is ridiculous. Repeat this to yourself and actually think about what kind of enforcement and intrusion this would entail. Also tell me what tax status a Buddhist entity should receive? Or are you just trying to apply your ridiculous view to Jews?

We are telling you that Reform, Conservative, Orthodox, etc. Jewish entities don’t consider messianic Jews to be Jewish. That’s it. Get over yourself.

Yes, but why do they consider Jews who don’t believe in God, Jewish?

Because, as people have explained over and over, belief in God is not a requirement in Judaism, which mostly involves following commandments to take (or avoid) specific actions. Also, the number of Jews who are actively atheist is small, though not as small as the number of people who say they're Jews who are actually Christians (because they believe Jesus was divine).

You're awfully hung up on this point and on insisting that it hasn't been answered. It has been answered, you just don't seem to like the answers.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There is clearly a determined Christian missionary on this thread.

There are actually determined antisemites on DCUM unfortunately.

The thread was started by someone who is Jewish, complaining about Christians.

No it wasn’t. The thread was started by someone spreading a falsehood about Jews (that they sue to stop “Messianic Jewish” congregations).

Jewish people posting here (who don’t speak for all Jewish people) have illogical and inconsistent rules about who they think should be Jewish. The thread was started by a troll (notice op never showed up again) to denigrate Christianity. It ended up discussing topics Jewish people don’t like to discuss or explain, so they start claiming antisemitism. Nobody on this thread has a right to speak for all Jewish people or claim it’s antisemitism when people discuss Judaism.

Wow. so you’re really dug in on how Jews have no right to determine even the most basic rules about their religion? I’m not sure if you actually actively dislike Jewish individuals but you are definitely anti-semitic.

It makes zero sense that a person is considered Jewish if they don’t believe in God, but are called names, disparaged, etc, because they think Jesus was the Son of God. It’s not hateful to ask why Jewish people can declare God does not exist and still be Jewish. It just doesn’t make any sense. It would seem a basic rule would be to acknowledge God exists.

Jews regard Judaism as their means of observing the Mosaic covenant, which was established between God and the Israelites, their ancestors. Judaism is the belief that God is one and is concerned with the actions of mankind. God commanded the nation of Israel to love and worship only one God. God also commanded the Jewish people to love one another; Jews are to imitate God's love for people.

So if a Jewish person is an atheist, how can they do any of these things? The person doesn’t believe the foundation of Judaism exists.

Why do you think you, non-Jewish internet rando, can díctate whay makes zero sense in a religion with a long scholarly tradition of interpreting its own rules? You seem to be attempting to insult or invalidate Judaism as a whole based on some gotcha you think is so clever. Meanwhile as has been explained to you here, Jewish theologians have given careful thought to the question. More broadly, the crisis of faith happens in all religions - the dark night of the soul. Nobody gets upset for example that Mother Teresa had basically no faith for her entire life.

This forum has a plethora of anonymous, non-*insert religious denomination* randos trying to interpret rules and play gotcha with every religion.

It doesn’t make sense that any religion that is based upon belief in a specific God would allow people who don’t believe in that God to be members of that religion. Nobody needs to disrespect or dislike someone that doesn’t have the same religious belief as they do, but including them in the religion when they deny the basis for your religion? Does your religion not have any actual meaning?

Like Satanists who claim to be Satanists, but don’t actually believe in Satan. They say Satan is a “metaphor.” There are Satanists who do believe in Satan, but the Satanic Temple says they don’t and that their religion is based on: “The Mission Of The Satanic Temple Is To Encourage Benevolence And Empathy, Reject Tyrannical Authority, Advocate Practical Common Sense, Oppose Injustice, And Undertake Noble Pursuits.” No belief in a God or gods, so why is that considered a religion?

Religion is the belief in and worship of a superhuman power or powers, especially a God or gods.

So an atheist who has no belief in God is by definition not religious. Yet they are accepted as a Jewish person in the Jewish religion.

The IRS gives religions/churches special rules, and it also seems like if a group is really not religious, they are using the IRS rules incorrectly to gain tax exemptions. It seems unethical and borderline illegal to claim to be a religion or religious and receive tax breaks meant for religious organizations while not actually having religious belief.

wow that’s a new one - Jewish synagogues should be taxed due to their theology.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There is clearly a determined Christian missionary on this thread.

There are actually determined antisemites on DCUM unfortunately.

The thread was started by someone who is Jewish, complaining about Christians.

No it wasn’t. The thread was started by someone spreading a falsehood about Jews (that they sue to stop “Messianic Jewish” congregations).

Jewish people posting here (who don’t speak for all Jewish people) have illogical and inconsistent rules about who they think should be Jewish. The thread was started by a troll (notice op never showed up again) to denigrate Christianity. It ended up discussing topics Jewish people don’t like to discuss or explain, so they start claiming antisemitism. Nobody on this thread has a right to speak for all Jewish people or claim it’s antisemitism when people discuss Judaism.

Wow. so you’re really dug in on how Jews have no right to determine even the most basic rules about their religion? I’m not sure if you actually actively dislike Jewish individuals but you are definitely anti-semitic.

It makes zero sense that a person is considered Jewish if they don’t believe in God, but are called names, disparaged, etc, because they think Jesus was the Son of God. It’s not hateful to ask why Jewish people can declare God does not exist and still be Jewish. It just doesn’t make any sense. It would seem a basic rule would be to acknowledge God exists.

Jews regard Judaism as their means of observing the Mosaic covenant, which was established between God and the Israelites, their ancestors. Judaism is the belief that God is one and is concerned with the actions of mankind. God commanded the nation of Israel to love and worship only one God. God also commanded the Jewish people to love one another; Jews are to imitate God's love for people.

So if a Jewish person is an atheist, how can they do any of these things? The person doesn’t believe the foundation of Judaism exists.

Why do you think you, non-Jewish internet rando, can díctate whay makes zero sense in a religion with a long scholarly tradition of interpreting its own rules? You seem to be attempting to insult or invalidate Judaism as a whole based on some gotcha you think is so clever. Meanwhile as has been explained to you here, Jewish theologians have given careful thought to the question. More broadly, the crisis of faith happens in all religions - the dark night of the soul. Nobody gets upset for example that Mother Teresa had basically no faith for her entire life.

This forum has a plethora of anonymous, non-*insert religious denomination* randos trying to interpret rules and play gotcha with every religion.

It doesn’t make sense that any religion that is based upon belief in a specific God would allow people who don’t believe in that God to be members of that religion. Nobody needs to disrespect or dislike someone that doesn’t have the same religious belief as they do, but including them in the religion when they deny the basis for your religion? Does your religion not have any actual meaning?

Like Satanists who claim to be Satanists, but don’t actually believe in Satan. They say Satan is a “metaphor.” There are Satanists who do believe in Satan, but the Satanic Temple says they don’t and that their religion is based on: “The Mission Of The Satanic Temple Is To Encourage Benevolence And Empathy, Reject Tyrannical Authority, Advocate Practical Common Sense, Oppose Injustice, And Undertake Noble Pursuits.” No belief in a God or gods, so why is that considered a religion?

Religion is the belief in and worship of a superhuman power or powers, especially a God or gods.

So an atheist who has no belief in God is by definition not religious. Yet they are accepted as a Jewish person in the Jewish religion.

The IRS gives religions/churches special rules, and it also seems like if a group is really not religious, they are using the IRS rules incorrectly to gain tax exemptions. It seems unethical and borderline illegal to claim to be a religion or religious and receive tax breaks meant for religious organizations while not actually having religious belief.

Are you suggesting that churches and other religious institutions should be required to expel their members who don’t believe in God or they would lose their tax exempt status?

That is ridiculous. Repeat this to yourself and actually think about what kind of enforcement and intrusion this would entail. Also tell me what tax status a Buddhist entity should receive? Or are you just trying to apply your ridiculous view to Jews?

We are telling you that Reform, Conservative, Orthodox, etc. Jewish entities don’t consider messianic Jews to be Jewish. That’s it. Get over yourself.

Yes, but why do they consider Jews who don’t believe in God, Jewish?

There have been numerous answers to this question on the thread already. Go back and read. There are centuries of Jewish thought on the subject.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m Christian and there are Magas who claim to be Christian while supporting Trump’s agenda of anti-immigration, tax cuts for the rich, and cutting social services. Mormons claim to be Christian. It’s not for me to say they’re not Christian, even if Maga’s are following the antithesis of Christ’s teachings. I figure maybe they’ll “see the light” one day and embrace the real message.

But they all believe in Christ … saying you don’t think MAGAs are Christian because they don’t support social services is far different from saying someone who believes Christ is the Messiah is Christian, not Jewish.

Sometimes I just think people are really stupid. Would like to believe that is the case here, instead of being this hostile towards Judaism.

I don’t think discussing Judaism is hostile. We see plenty of threads openly hostile to religion here: calling all religious people in a religion pedophiles, sex abusers, bigots, homophobes, implying religious people are less educated, etc, and those threads and comments stand. Remember the multiple threads based on the Yellowstone tv show that were used as evidence of Catholics abusing Native American children? Even after it was proven the United States government was the entity that was responsible for schools like that, ran schools like that, and that many different kind of religious organizations and religious denominations ran such schools, the threads and posters had no problem attacking Catholic people about the schools. ( I am not Catholic.)

I don’t think asking questions about a religion is hostility. Nobody is saying Jewish people can’t have their own rules or their rules are wrong. It just doesn’t make any sense. A large portion of Jewish people are seemingly atheist and accepted as religious Jews. That continues to not make sense and defies logic. Yet Messianic Jews are considered not to be Jews, and face discrimination and persecution in Israel. (I am not a Messianic Jew, I just saw that they are not only not accepted, but are discriminated against and treated as outsiders, outcasts, and aren’t allowed to practice their religion in peace.

Jewish extremists try to interrupt Messianic Jewish event in Jerusalem
Protesters attempt to break into main hall, block participants from getting to convention; police arrest activist for allegedly attacking officer

“Jewish extremists attempted to disrupt a convention of Messianic Jews in Jerusalem on Thursday. Activists from the Lehava organization, which opposes interfaith and interethnic relationships and marriages, and Or l’Achim, an organization that tries to counter Christian proselytization in Israel, tried to block participants from attending the event and attempted to break into the main hall at the Clal Center.

Police were called to the event to disperse the protesters and ensure the safety of the event. One person was arrested for allegedly attacking police at the event.

In a statement, police vowed to preserve freedom of expression and protest, “but not illegal public disturbances and rioting.”

The event at the Clal Center was hosted by the Messianic Jewish Alliance of Israel.

Messianic Judaism is a movement that combines Jewish tradition and practice with the belief that Jesus Christ is the coming messiah. It is considered outside the fold by all mainstream Jewish denominations, who say the ideology directly contradicts many of the religion’s principal tenets.“

https://www.timesofisrael.com/jewish-extremists-try-to-interrupt-messianic-jewish-event-in-jerusalem/amp/

So there are Jewish people who consider interface and inter ethnic marriage in Israel and violently oppose people they disagree with (scary, because there is a thread on this board that says the same thing) and although belief that Jesus is the Son of God is outside the fold and directly contradicts many of the religion’s principal tenets, so does atheism. Believing no God exists is outside the fold and directly contradicts many (if not most) of Jewish religious tenets. Yet atheist Jews are considered Jews. It doesn’t make sense.

+1. Jews in this forum slam Christians and Christianity all the time, with some of identifying yourselves as Jewish as you do it. I don’t see how simply asking this question, and then pressing for answers that make sense, is nearly as hostile.

I have never seen a Jew “slam Christians and Christianity” here, unless you are referring to posts about the historical fact of anti-semitic persecution?

And there have been many thoughtful answers given here, yet PPs are still insisting on making absolutely the most facially absurd attacks on Judaism.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There is clearly a determined Christian missionary on this thread.

There are actually determined antisemites on DCUM unfortunately.

The thread was started by someone who is Jewish, complaining about Christians.

No it wasn’t. The thread was started by someone spreading a falsehood about Jews (that they sue to stop “Messianic Jewish” congregations).

Jewish people posting here (who don’t speak for all Jewish people) have illogical and inconsistent rules about who they think should be Jewish. The thread was started by a troll (notice op never showed up again) to denigrate Christianity. It ended up discussing topics Jewish people don’t like to discuss or explain, so they start claiming antisemitism. Nobody on this thread has a right to speak for all Jewish people or claim it’s antisemitism when people discuss Judaism.

Wow. so you’re really dug in on how Jews have no right to determine even the most basic rules about their religion? I’m not sure if you actually actively dislike Jewish individuals but you are definitely anti-semitic.

It makes zero sense that a person is considered Jewish if they don’t believe in God, but are called names, disparaged, etc, because they think Jesus was the Son of God. It’s not hateful to ask why Jewish people can declare God does not exist and still be Jewish. It just doesn’t make any sense. It would seem a basic rule would be to acknowledge God exists.

Jews regard Judaism as their means of observing the Mosaic covenant, which was established between God and the Israelites, their ancestors. Judaism is the belief that God is one and is concerned with the actions of mankind. God commanded the nation of Israel to love and worship only one God. God also commanded the Jewish people to love one another; Jews are to imitate God's love for people.

So if a Jewish person is an atheist, how can they do any of these things? The person doesn’t believe the foundation of Judaism exists.

Why do you think you, non-Jewish internet rando, can díctate whay makes zero sense in a religion with a long scholarly tradition of interpreting its own rules? You seem to be attempting to insult or invalidate Judaism as a whole based on some gotcha you think is so clever. Meanwhile as has been explained to you here, Jewish theologians have given careful thought to the question. More broadly, the crisis of faith happens in all religions - the dark night of the soul. Nobody gets upset for example that Mother Teresa had basically no faith for her entire life.

This forum has a plethora of anonymous, non-*insert religious denomination* randos trying to interpret rules and play gotcha with every religion.

It doesn’t make sense that any religion that is based upon belief in a specific God would allow people who don’t believe in that God to be members of that religion. Nobody needs to disrespect or dislike someone that doesn’t have the same religious belief as they do, but including them in the religion when they deny the basis for your religion? Does your religion not have any actual meaning?

Like Satanists who claim to be Satanists, but don’t actually believe in Satan. They say Satan is a “metaphor.” There are Satanists who do believe in Satan, but the Satanic Temple says they don’t and that their religion is based on: “The Mission Of The Satanic Temple Is To Encourage Benevolence And Empathy, Reject Tyrannical Authority, Advocate Practical Common Sense, Oppose Injustice, And Undertake Noble Pursuits.” No belief in a God or gods, so why is that considered a religion?

Religion is the belief in and worship of a superhuman power or powers, especially a God or gods.

So an atheist who has no belief in God is by definition not religious. Yet they are accepted as a Jewish person in the Jewish religion.

The IRS gives religions/churches special rules, and it also seems like if a group is really not religious, they are using the IRS rules incorrectly to gain tax exemptions. It seems unethical and borderline illegal to claim to be a religion or religious and receive tax breaks meant for religious organizations while not actually having religious belief.

Are you suggesting that churches and other religious institutions should be required to expel their members who don’t believe in God or they would lose their tax exempt status?

That is ridiculous. Repeat this to yourself and actually think about what kind of enforcement and intrusion this would entail. Also tell me what tax status a Buddhist entity should receive? Or are you just trying to apply your ridiculous view to Jews?

We are telling you that Reform, Conservative, Orthodox, etc. Jewish entities don’t consider messianic Jews to be Jewish. That’s it. Get over yourself.

No, but if an institution isn’t following IRS rules, that’s illegal. I don’t think IRS rules should be applied unfairly or target any specific religion. There are a lot of posters here that don’t believe religious institutions should be allowed any tax exemption and constantly want the government to take away the IRS exemption from religious institutions. I don’t think that is a good idea; religious institutions do so much good in the world. However if there is no religious belief in an organization, how does that follow tax law? The institution that has the tax exemption has to follow the law.

There is more to the Jewish religion than just belief in God. "Faith alone" is a Christian concept.

[Anonymous]

[quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous]I’m Christian and there are Magas who claim to be Christian while supporting Trump’s agenda of anti-immigration, tax cuts for the rich, and cutting social services. Mormons claim to be Christian. It’s not for me to say they’re not Christian, even if Maga’s are following the antithesis of Christ’s teachings. I figure maybe they’ll “see the light” one day and embrace the real message. [/quote]

But they all believe in Christ … saying you don’t think MAGAs are Christian because they don’t support social services is far different from saying someone who believes Christ is the Messiah is Christian, not Jewish.

Sometimes I just think people are really stupid. Would like to believe that is the case here, instead of being this hostile towards Judaism. [/quote]

Thanks for the insult…. But pp and others have raised questions that nobody here has answered satisfactorily, despite you claiming you “answered.”[/quote]
You not understanding how Jewish belief and theology works doesn't mean the question wasn't answered. Your "satisfaction" seems based on the answer fitting your understanding of religion, which clearly is not in line with Judaism. That's not the fault of the Jewish PPs who answered you.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There is clearly a determined Christian missionary on this thread.

There are actually determined antisemites on DCUM unfortunately.

The thread was started by someone who is Jewish, complaining about Christians.

No it wasn’t. The thread was started by someone spreading a falsehood about Jews (that they sue to stop “Messianic Jewish” congregations).

Jewish people posting here (who don’t speak for all Jewish people) have illogical and inconsistent rules about who they think should be Jewish. The thread was started by a troll (notice op never showed up again) to denigrate Christianity. It ended up discussing topics Jewish people don’t like to discuss or explain, so they start claiming antisemitism. Nobody on this thread has a right to speak for all Jewish people or claim it’s antisemitism when people discuss Judaism.

Wow. so you’re really dug in on how Jews have no right to determine even the most basic rules about their religion? I’m not sure if you actually actively dislike Jewish individuals but you are definitely anti-semitic.

It makes zero sense that a person is considered Jewish if they don’t believe in God, but are called names, disparaged, etc, because they think Jesus was the Son of God. It’s not hateful to ask why Jewish people can declare God does not exist and still be Jewish. It just doesn’t make any sense. It would seem a basic rule would be to acknowledge God exists.

Jews regard Judaism as their means of observing the Mosaic covenant, which was established between God and the Israelites, their ancestors. Judaism is the belief that God is one and is concerned with the actions of mankind. God commanded the nation of Israel to love and worship only one God. God also commanded the Jewish people to love one another; Jews are to imitate God's love for people.

So if a Jewish person is an atheist, how can they do any of these things? The person doesn’t believe the foundation of Judaism exists.

Why do you think you, non-Jewish internet rando, can díctate whay makes zero sense in a religion with a long scholarly tradition of interpreting its own rules? You seem to be attempting to insult or invalidate Judaism as a whole based on some gotcha you think is so clever. Meanwhile as has been explained to you here, Jewish theologians have given careful thought to the question. More broadly, the crisis of faith happens in all religions - the dark night of the soul. Nobody gets upset for example that Mother Teresa had basically no faith for her entire life.

This forum has a plethora of anonymous, non-*insert religious denomination* randos trying to interpret rules and play gotcha with every religion.

It doesn’t make sense that any religion that is based upon belief in a specific God would allow people who don’t believe in that God to be members of that religion. Nobody needs to disrespect or dislike someone that doesn’t have the same religious belief as they do, but including them in the religion when they deny the basis for your religion? Does your religion not have any actual meaning?

Like Satanists who claim to be Satanists, but don’t actually believe in Satan. They say Satan is a “metaphor.” There are Satanists who do believe in Satan, but the Satanic Temple says they don’t and that their religion is based on: “The Mission Of The Satanic Temple Is To Encourage Benevolence And Empathy, Reject Tyrannical Authority, Advocate Practical Common Sense, Oppose Injustice, And Undertake Noble Pursuits.” No belief in a God or gods, so why is that considered a religion?

Religion is the belief in and worship of a superhuman power or powers, especially a God or gods.

So an atheist who has no belief in God is by definition not religious. Yet they are accepted as a Jewish person in the Jewish religion.

The IRS gives religions/churches special rules, and it also seems like if a group is really not religious, they are using the IRS rules incorrectly to gain tax exemptions. It seems unethical and borderline illegal to claim to be a religion or religious and receive tax breaks meant for religious organizations while not actually having religious belief.

Are you suggesting that churches and other religious institutions should be required to expel their members who don’t believe in God or they would lose their tax exempt status?

That is ridiculous. Repeat this to yourself and actually think about what kind of enforcement and intrusion this would entail. Also tell me what tax status a Buddhist entity should receive? Or are you just trying to apply your ridiculous view to Jews?

We are telling you that Reform, Conservative, Orthodox, etc. Jewish entities don’t consider messianic Jews to be Jewish. That’s it. Get over yourself.

No, but if an institution isn’t following IRS rules, that’s illegal. I don’t think IRS rules should be applied unfairly or target any specific religion. There are a lot of posters here that don’t believe religious institutions should be allowed any tax exemption and constantly want the government to take away the IRS exemption from religious institutions. I don’t think that is a good idea; religious institutions do so much good in the world. However if there is no religious belief in an organization, how does that follow tax law? The institution that has the tax exemption has to follow the law.

There is more to the Jewish religion than just belief in God. "Faith alone" is a Christian concept.

That’s right. The IRS uses a complex set of criteria to judge the sociological/institutional characteristics that mark a “church,” not any particular type of doctrine or belief. It’s not about the belief in a deity but a group of people forming an institution made up of shared beliefs and traditions.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There is clearly a determined Christian missionary on this thread.

There are actually determined antisemites on DCUM unfortunately.

The thread was started by someone who is Jewish, complaining about Christians.

No it wasn’t. The thread was started by someone spreading a falsehood about Jews (that they sue to stop “Messianic Jewish” congregations).

Jewish people posting here (who don’t speak for all Jewish people) have illogical and inconsistent rules about who they think should be Jewish. The thread was started by a troll (notice op never showed up again) to denigrate Christianity. It ended up discussing topics Jewish people don’t like to discuss or explain, so they start claiming antisemitism. Nobody on this thread has a right to speak for all Jewish people or claim it’s antisemitism when people discuss Judaism.

Wow. so you’re really dug in on how Jews have no right to determine even the most basic rules about their religion? I’m not sure if you actually actively dislike Jewish individuals but you are definitely anti-semitic.

It makes zero sense that a person is considered Jewish if they don’t believe in God, but are called names, disparaged, etc, because they think Jesus was the Son of God. It’s not hateful to ask why Jewish people can declare God does not exist and still be Jewish. It just doesn’t make any sense. It would seem a basic rule would be to acknowledge God exists.

Jews regard Judaism as their means of observing the Mosaic covenant, which was established between God and the Israelites, their ancestors. Judaism is the belief that God is one and is concerned with the actions of mankind. God commanded the nation of Israel to love and worship only one God. God also commanded the Jewish people to love one another; Jews are to imitate God's love for people.

So if a Jewish person is an atheist, how can they do any of these things? The person doesn’t believe the foundation of Judaism exists.

Why do you think you, non-Jewish internet rando, can díctate whay makes zero sense in a religion with a long scholarly tradition of interpreting its own rules? You seem to be attempting to insult or invalidate Judaism as a whole based on some gotcha you think is so clever. Meanwhile as has been explained to you here, Jewish theologians have given careful thought to the question. More broadly, the crisis of faith happens in all religions - the dark night of the soul. Nobody gets upset for example that Mother Teresa had basically no faith for her entire life.

This forum has a plethora of anonymous, non-*insert religious denomination* randos trying to interpret rules and play gotcha with every religion.

It doesn’t make sense that any religion that is based upon belief in a specific God would allow people who don’t believe in that God to be members of that religion. Nobody needs to disrespect or dislike someone that doesn’t have the same religious belief as they do, but including them in the religion when they deny the basis for your religion? Does your religion not have any actual meaning?

Like Satanists who claim to be Satanists, but don’t actually believe in Satan. They say Satan is a “metaphor.” There are Satanists who do believe in Satan, but the Satanic Temple says they don’t and that their religion is based on: “The Mission Of The Satanic Temple Is To Encourage Benevolence And Empathy, Reject Tyrannical Authority, Advocate Practical Common Sense, Oppose Injustice, And Undertake Noble Pursuits.” No belief in a God or gods, so why is that considered a religion?

Religion is the belief in and worship of a superhuman power or powers, especially a God or gods.

So an atheist who has no belief in God is by definition not religious. Yet they are accepted as a Jewish person in the Jewish religion.

The IRS gives religions/churches special rules, and it also seems like if a group is really not religious, they are using the IRS rules incorrectly to gain tax exemptions. It seems unethical and borderline illegal to claim to be a religion or religious and receive tax breaks meant for religious organizations while not actually having religious belief.

Are you suggesting that churches and other religious institutions should be required to expel their members who don’t believe in God or they would lose their tax exempt status?

That is ridiculous. Repeat this to yourself and actually think about what kind of enforcement and intrusion this would entail. Also tell me what tax status a Buddhist entity should receive? Or are you just trying to apply your ridiculous view to Jews?

We are telling you that Reform, Conservative, Orthodox, etc. Jewish entities don’t consider messianic Jews to be Jewish. That’s it. Get over yourself.

No, but if an institution isn’t following IRS rules, that’s illegal. I don’t think IRS rules should be applied unfairly or target any specific religion. There are a lot of posters here that don’t believe religious institutions should be allowed any tax exemption and constantly want the government to take away the IRS exemption from religious institutions. I don’t think that is a good idea; religious institutions do so much good in the world. However if there is no religious belief in an organization, how does that follow tax law? The institution that has the tax exemption has to follow the law.

There is more to the Jewish religion than just belief in God. "Faith alone" is a Christian concept.

That’s right. The IRS uses a complex set of criteria to judge the sociological/institutional characteristics that mark a “church,” not any particular type of doctrine or belief. It’s not about the belief in a deity but a group of people forming an institution made up of shared beliefs and traditions.

Shared religious beliefs and religious traditions. That’s specific. Lots of people share beliefs and traditions but not in a religious context.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There is clearly a determined Christian missionary on this thread.

There are actually determined antisemites on DCUM unfortunately.

The thread was started by someone who is Jewish, complaining about Christians.

No it wasn’t. The thread was started by someone spreading a falsehood about Jews (that they sue to stop “Messianic Jewish” congregations).

Jewish people posting here (who don’t speak for all Jewish people) have illogical and inconsistent rules about who they think should be Jewish. The thread was started by a troll (notice op never showed up again) to denigrate Christianity. It ended up discussing topics Jewish people don’t like to discuss or explain, so they start claiming antisemitism. Nobody on this thread has a right to speak for all Jewish people or claim it’s antisemitism when people discuss Judaism.

Wow. so you’re really dug in on how Jews have no right to determine even the most basic rules about their religion? I’m not sure if you actually actively dislike Jewish individuals but you are definitely anti-semitic.

It makes zero sense that a person is considered Jewish if they don’t believe in God, but are called names, disparaged, etc, because they think Jesus was the Son of God. It’s not hateful to ask why Jewish people can declare God does not exist and still be Jewish. It just doesn’t make any sense. It would seem a basic rule would be to acknowledge God exists.

Jews regard Judaism as their means of observing the Mosaic covenant, which was established between God and the Israelites, their ancestors. Judaism is the belief that God is one and is concerned with the actions of mankind. God commanded the nation of Israel to love and worship only one God. God also commanded the Jewish people to love one another; Jews are to imitate God's love for people.

So if a Jewish person is an atheist, how can they do any of these things? The person doesn’t believe the foundation of Judaism exists.

Why do you think you, non-Jewish internet rando, can díctate whay makes zero sense in a religion with a long scholarly tradition of interpreting its own rules? You seem to be attempting to insult or invalidate Judaism as a whole based on some gotcha you think is so clever. Meanwhile as has been explained to you here, Jewish theologians have given careful thought to the question. More broadly, the crisis of faith happens in all religions - the dark night of the soul. Nobody gets upset for example that Mother Teresa had basically no faith for her entire life.

This forum has a plethora of anonymous, non-*insert religious denomination* randos trying to interpret rules and play gotcha with every religion.

It doesn’t make sense that any religion that is based upon belief in a specific God would allow people who don’t believe in that God to be members of that religion. Nobody needs to disrespect or dislike someone that doesn’t have the same religious belief as they do, but including them in the religion when they deny the basis for your religion? Does your religion not have any actual meaning?

Like Satanists who claim to be Satanists, but don’t actually believe in Satan. They say Satan is a “metaphor.” There are Satanists who do believe in Satan, but the Satanic Temple says they don’t and that their religion is based on: “The Mission Of The Satanic Temple Is To Encourage Benevolence And Empathy, Reject Tyrannical Authority, Advocate Practical Common Sense, Oppose Injustice, And Undertake Noble Pursuits.” No belief in a God or gods, so why is that considered a religion?

Religion is the belief in and worship of a superhuman power or powers, especially a God or gods.

So an atheist who has no belief in God is by definition not religious. Yet they are accepted as a Jewish person in the Jewish religion.

The IRS gives religions/churches special rules, and it also seems like if a group is really not religious, they are using the IRS rules incorrectly to gain tax exemptions. It seems unethical and borderline illegal to claim to be a religion or religious and receive tax breaks meant for religious organizations while not actually having religious belief.

Are you suggesting that churches and other religious institutions should be required to expel their members who don’t believe in God or they would lose their tax exempt status?

That is ridiculous. Repeat this to yourself and actually think about what kind of enforcement and intrusion this would entail. Also tell me what tax status a Buddhist entity should receive? Or are you just trying to apply your ridiculous view to Jews?

We are telling you that Reform, Conservative, Orthodox, etc. Jewish entities don’t consider messianic Jews to be Jewish. That’s it. Get over yourself.

No, but if an institution isn’t following IRS rules, that’s illegal. I don’t think IRS rules should be applied unfairly or target any specific religion. There are a lot of posters here that don’t believe religious institutions should be allowed any tax exemption and constantly want the government to take away the IRS exemption from religious institutions. I don’t think that is a good idea; religious institutions do so much good in the world. However if there is no religious belief in an organization, how does that follow tax law? The institution that has the tax exemption has to follow the law.

There is more to the Jewish religion than just belief in God. "Faith alone" is a Christian concept.

Religious expressions of Judaism believe that God is one, has no form, created the world, is eternal and is still actively involved in world affairs.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There is clearly a determined Christian missionary on this thread.

There are actually determined antisemites on DCUM unfortunately.

The thread was started by someone who is Jewish, complaining about Christians.

No it wasn’t. The thread was started by someone spreading a falsehood about Jews (that they sue to stop “Messianic Jewish” congregations).

Jewish people posting here (who don’t speak for all Jewish people) have illogical and inconsistent rules about who they think should be Jewish. The thread was started by a troll (notice op never showed up again) to denigrate Christianity. It ended up discussing topics Jewish people don’t like to discuss or explain, so they start claiming antisemitism. Nobody on this thread has a right to speak for all Jewish people or claim it’s antisemitism when people discuss Judaism.

Wow. so you’re really dug in on how Jews have no right to determine even the most basic rules about their religion? I’m not sure if you actually actively dislike Jewish individuals but you are definitely anti-semitic.

It makes zero sense that a person is considered Jewish if they don’t believe in God, but are called names, disparaged, etc, because they think Jesus was the Son of God. It’s not hateful to ask why Jewish people can declare God does not exist and still be Jewish. It just doesn’t make any sense. It would seem a basic rule would be to acknowledge God exists.

Jews regard Judaism as their means of observing the Mosaic covenant, which was established between God and the Israelites, their ancestors. Judaism is the belief that God is one and is concerned with the actions of mankind. God commanded the nation of Israel to love and worship only one God. God also commanded the Jewish people to love one another; Jews are to imitate God's love for people.

So if a Jewish person is an atheist, how can they do any of these things? The person doesn’t believe the foundation of Judaism exists.

Why do you think you, non-Jewish internet rando, can díctate whay makes zero sense in a religion with a long scholarly tradition of interpreting its own rules? You seem to be attempting to insult or invalidate Judaism as a whole based on some gotcha you think is so clever. Meanwhile as has been explained to you here, Jewish theologians have given careful thought to the question. More broadly, the crisis of faith happens in all religions - the dark night of the soul. Nobody gets upset for example that Mother Teresa had basically no faith for her entire life.

This forum has a plethora of anonymous, non-*insert religious denomination* randos trying to interpret rules and play gotcha with every religion.

It doesn’t make sense that any religion that is based upon belief in a specific God would allow people who don’t believe in that God to be members of that religion. Nobody needs to disrespect or dislike someone that doesn’t have the same religious belief as they do, but including them in the religion when they deny the basis for your religion? Does your religion not have any actual meaning?

Like Satanists who claim to be Satanists, but don’t actually believe in Satan. They say Satan is a “metaphor.” There are Satanists who do believe in Satan, but the Satanic Temple says they don’t and that their religion is based on: “The Mission Of The Satanic Temple Is To Encourage Benevolence And Empathy, Reject Tyrannical Authority, Advocate Practical Common Sense, Oppose Injustice, And Undertake Noble Pursuits.” No belief in a God or gods, so why is that considered a religion?

Religion is the belief in and worship of a superhuman power or powers, especially a God or gods.

So an atheist who has no belief in God is by definition not religious. Yet they are accepted as a Jewish person in the Jewish religion.

The IRS gives religions/churches special rules, and it also seems like if a group is really not religious, they are using the IRS rules incorrectly to gain tax exemptions. It seems unethical and borderline illegal to claim to be a religion or religious and receive tax breaks meant for religious organizations while not actually having religious belief.

Are you suggesting that churches and other religious institutions should be required to expel their members who don’t believe in God or they would lose their tax exempt status?

That is ridiculous. Repeat this to yourself and actually think about what kind of enforcement and intrusion this would entail. Also tell me what tax status a Buddhist entity should receive? Or are you just trying to apply your ridiculous view to Jews?

We are telling you that Reform, Conservative, Orthodox, etc. Jewish entities don’t consider messianic Jews to be Jewish. That’s it. Get over yourself.

Yes, but why do they consider Jews who don’t believe in God, Jewish?

There have been numerous answers to this question on the thread already. Go back and read. There are centuries of Jewish thought on the subject.

I don’t see an answer. Could you explain how Jewish people who don’t believe in God are accepted as Jewish but Jewish people who believe in God and Jesus are considered not acceptable?

[Anonymous]

There are even bigger gaps when it comes to belief in God. About a quarter of Jews (26%) say they believe in God as described in the Bible, compared with more than half of U.S. adults overall (56%) and eight-in-ten Christians. Jews are more likely than U.S. adults overall (50% vs. 33%) to say they believe in some other spiritual force or higher power, but not in God as described in the Bible. Jewish adults also are twice as likely as the general public to say they do not believe in any kind of higher power or spiritual force in the universe (22% vs. 10%).

Orthodox Jews – who make up 9% of all U.S. Jews – are a notable exception. They are among the most highly religious groups in U.S. society by these measures. For example, 86% of Orthodox Jews say religion is very important in their lives, as do 78% of Black Protestants and 76% of White evangelical Protestants, two of the most highly religious Christian subgroups. Orthodox Jews (93%) also are about as likely as White evangelicals (94%) and Black Protestants (88%) to say they believe in God as described in the Bible.

https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2021/05/13/jews-in-u-s-are-far-less-religious-than-christians-and-americans-overall-at-least-by-traditional-measures/

So Jewish people are less religious, overall. That’s reality, but apparently the Jewish people who believe in Jesus are the only Jewish people that are not accepted by Jewish people and are actively disliked, and considered to be destroying Judaism and “giving the finger” to all Jews present and past.”

It has been explained that Jewish people can be completely atheist and they are fine, and only Orthodox Jewish people are consistently “religious” according to Pew. That’s ok, but once a person believes Jesus is the Son of God, they are disowned and set apart from the Jewish people.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There is clearly a determined Christian missionary on this thread.

There are actually determined antisemites on DCUM unfortunately.

The thread was started by someone who is Jewish, complaining about Christians.

No it wasn’t. The thread was started by someone spreading a falsehood about Jews (that they sue to stop “Messianic Jewish” congregations).

Jewish people posting here (who don’t speak for all Jewish people) have illogical and inconsistent rules about who they think should be Jewish. The thread was started by a troll (notice op never showed up again) to denigrate Christianity. It ended up discussing topics Jewish people don’t like to discuss or explain, so they start claiming antisemitism. Nobody on this thread has a right to speak for all Jewish people or claim it’s antisemitism when people discuss Judaism.

Wow. so you’re really dug in on how Jews have no right to determine even the most basic rules about their religion? I’m not sure if you actually actively dislike Jewish individuals but you are definitely anti-semitic.

It makes zero sense that a person is considered Jewish if they don’t believe in God, but are called names, disparaged, etc, because they think Jesus was the Son of God. It’s not hateful to ask why Jewish people can declare God does not exist and still be Jewish. It just doesn’t make any sense. It would seem a basic rule would be to acknowledge God exists.

Jews regard Judaism as their means of observing the Mosaic covenant, which was established between God and the Israelites, their ancestors. Judaism is the belief that God is one and is concerned with the actions of mankind. God commanded the nation of Israel to love and worship only one God. God also commanded the Jewish people to love one another; Jews are to imitate God's love for people.

So if a Jewish person is an atheist, how can they do any of these things? The person doesn’t believe the foundation of Judaism exists.

Why do you think you, non-Jewish internet rando, can díctate whay makes zero sense in a religion with a long scholarly tradition of interpreting its own rules? You seem to be attempting to insult or invalidate Judaism as a whole based on some gotcha you think is so clever. Meanwhile as has been explained to you here, Jewish theologians have given careful thought to the question. More broadly, the crisis of faith happens in all religions - the dark night of the soul. Nobody gets upset for example that Mother Teresa had basically no faith for her entire life.

This forum has a plethora of anonymous, non-*insert religious denomination* randos trying to interpret rules and play gotcha with every religion.

It doesn’t make sense that any religion that is based upon belief in a specific God would allow people who don’t believe in that God to be members of that religion. Nobody needs to disrespect or dislike someone that doesn’t have the same religious belief as they do, but including them in the religion when they deny the basis for your religion? Does your religion not have any actual meaning?

Like Satanists who claim to be Satanists, but don’t actually believe in Satan. They say Satan is a “metaphor.” There are Satanists who do believe in Satan, but the Satanic Temple says they don’t and that their religion is based on: “The Mission Of The Satanic Temple Is To Encourage Benevolence And Empathy, Reject Tyrannical Authority, Advocate Practical Common Sense, Oppose Injustice, And Undertake Noble Pursuits.” No belief in a God or gods, so why is that considered a religion?

Religion is the belief in and worship of a superhuman power or powers, especially a God or gods.

So an atheist who has no belief in God is by definition not religious. Yet they are accepted as a Jewish person in the Jewish religion.

The IRS gives religions/churches special rules, and it also seems like if a group is really not religious, they are using the IRS rules incorrectly to gain tax exemptions. It seems unethical and borderline illegal to claim to be a religion or religious and receive tax breaks meant for religious organizations while not actually having religious belief.

Are you suggesting that churches and other religious institutions should be required to expel their members who don’t believe in God or they would lose their tax exempt status?

That is ridiculous. Repeat this to yourself and actually think about what kind of enforcement and intrusion this would entail. Also tell me what tax status a Buddhist entity should receive? Or are you just trying to apply your ridiculous view to Jews?

We are telling you that Reform, Conservative, Orthodox, etc. Jewish entities don’t consider messianic Jews to be Jewish. That’s it. Get over yourself.

No, but if an institution isn’t following IRS rules, that’s illegal. I don’t think IRS rules should be applied unfairly or target any specific religion. There are a lot of posters here that don’t believe religious institutions should be allowed any tax exemption and constantly want the government to take away the IRS exemption from religious institutions. I don’t think that is a good idea; religious institutions do so much good in the world. However if there is no religious belief in an organization, how does that follow tax law? The institution that has the tax exemption has to follow the law.

There is more to the Jewish religion than just belief in God. "Faith alone" is a Christian concept.

That’s right. The IRS uses a complex set of criteria to judge the sociological/institutional characteristics that mark a “church,” not any particular type of doctrine or belief. It’s not about the belief in a deity but a group of people forming an institution made up of shared beliefs and traditions.

Shared religious beliefs and religious traditions. That’s specific. Lots of people share beliefs and traditions but not in a religious context.

The IRS doesn’t have a litmus test for “religious” requiring belief in a deity. It certainly would NOT get into the details about how a denomination admits or rejects members based on belief in a particular deity. The key is that there is a set of religious beliefs and standards that determines how a person can join, not the content of those beliefs & standards.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There is clearly a determined Christian missionary on this thread.

There are actually determined antisemites on DCUM unfortunately.

The thread was started by someone who is Jewish, complaining about Christians.

No it wasn’t. The thread was started by someone spreading a falsehood about Jews (that they sue to stop “Messianic Jewish” congregations).

Jewish people posting here (who don’t speak for all Jewish people) have illogical and inconsistent rules about who they think should be Jewish. The thread was started by a troll (notice op never showed up again) to denigrate Christianity. It ended up discussing topics Jewish people don’t like to discuss or explain, so they start claiming antisemitism. Nobody on this thread has a right to speak for all Jewish people or claim it’s antisemitism when people discuss Judaism.

Wow. so you’re really dug in on how Jews have no right to determine even the most basic rules about their religion? I’m not sure if you actually actively dislike Jewish individuals but you are definitely anti-semitic.

It makes zero sense that a person is considered Jewish if they don’t believe in God, but are called names, disparaged, etc, because they think Jesus was the Son of God. It’s not hateful to ask why Jewish people can declare God does not exist and still be Jewish. It just doesn’t make any sense. It would seem a basic rule would be to acknowledge God exists.

Jews regard Judaism as their means of observing the Mosaic covenant, which was established between God and the Israelites, their ancestors. Judaism is the belief that God is one and is concerned with the actions of mankind. God commanded the nation of Israel to love and worship only one God. God also commanded the Jewish people to love one another; Jews are to imitate God's love for people.

So if a Jewish person is an atheist, how can they do any of these things? The person doesn’t believe the foundation of Judaism exists.

Why do you think you, non-Jewish internet rando, can díctate whay makes zero sense in a religion with a long scholarly tradition of interpreting its own rules? You seem to be attempting to insult or invalidate Judaism as a whole based on some gotcha you think is so clever. Meanwhile as has been explained to you here, Jewish theologians have given careful thought to the question. More broadly, the crisis of faith happens in all religions - the dark night of the soul. Nobody gets upset for example that Mother Teresa had basically no faith for her entire life.

This forum has a plethora of anonymous, non-*insert religious denomination* randos trying to interpret rules and play gotcha with every religion.

It doesn’t make sense that any religion that is based upon belief in a specific God would allow people who don’t believe in that God to be members of that religion. Nobody needs to disrespect or dislike someone that doesn’t have the same religious belief as they do, but including them in the religion when they deny the basis for your religion? Does your religion not have any actual meaning?

Like Satanists who claim to be Satanists, but don’t actually believe in Satan. They say Satan is a “metaphor.” There are Satanists who do believe in Satan, but the Satanic Temple says they don’t and that their religion is based on: “The Mission Of The Satanic Temple Is To Encourage Benevolence And Empathy, Reject Tyrannical Authority, Advocate Practical Common Sense, Oppose Injustice, And Undertake Noble Pursuits.” No belief in a God or gods, so why is that considered a religion?

Religion is the belief in and worship of a superhuman power or powers, especially a God or gods.

So an atheist who has no belief in God is by definition not religious. Yet they are accepted as a Jewish person in the Jewish religion.

The IRS gives religions/churches special rules, and it also seems like if a group is really not religious, they are using the IRS rules incorrectly to gain tax exemptions. It seems unethical and borderline illegal to claim to be a religion or religious and receive tax breaks meant for religious organizations while not actually having religious belief.

Are you suggesting that churches and other religious institutions should be required to expel their members who don’t believe in God or they would lose their tax exempt status?

That is ridiculous. Repeat this to yourself and actually think about what kind of enforcement and intrusion this would entail. Also tell me what tax status a Buddhist entity should receive? Or are you just trying to apply your ridiculous view to Jews?

We are telling you that Reform, Conservative, Orthodox, etc. Jewish entities don’t consider messianic Jews to be Jewish. That’s it. Get over yourself.

Yes, but why do they consider Jews who don’t believe in God, Jewish?

There have been numerous answers to this question on the thread already. Go back and read. There are centuries of Jewish thought on the subject.

I don’t see an answer. Could you explain how Jewish people who don’t believe in God are accepted as Jewish but Jewish people who believe in God and Jesus are considered not acceptable?

Read the thread! Belief in Jesus is pretty much the ONE thing that Jews agree make you non-Jewish. This is so basic as for me to believe you are trolling if you claim not to understand. Jews do not believe the Messiah has come.