Why are kids with problematic behavior left in mainstream classes

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Least Restrictive Environment.

Everyone else suffers for it.

This. The schools would rather see the victims leave the school. I know a parent who was very actively engaged and volunteered at the school. Her kid was constantly bullied to the point that even cops were involved. The school did nothing more than a kumbaya circle between the bully and the victim. Victim lashed out and did it again. He got a couple days of suspension but was back at it within a few days. Because the school barely did anything, the victim's mom ended up filing a COSA so that her child could transfer to a different school. How messed up is that? Why does the victim have to be the one inconvenienced by leaving the school? I know of 2 other families with the same situation; 1 got a COSA and 1 left for private school.

What is a COSA?

Change of School Assignment

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am a parent of such a child. No thanks to the school system, she's never hurt anyone.

They refuse to make classes for these kids.

It is not a funding issue!

It is not a staffing issue!

It's a combination of hoping kids will age out (hence the long delays at every step)

And misplaced concerns about equity.

(My child is white, and I'd be thrilled for them to be in a self contained class with anyone of any color. Don't believe me? Find out how long the waiting list for such classes is in your district.)

How many classes should they make? Self contained classes can have 5-15 students. How many classes that small can be made in a district where schools are already over crowded. Do you expect Gen Ed classes to now hold 50+ kids??

I would love to see 2 self contained classes per elem school. My kid was in the Asperger’s program. His class was mixed grades. It would be great if there was a k-2 and a 3-5 class.

[Anonymous]

I am a teacher and things are out of control. I have a student flipping a desk on almost a daily basis because he gets frustrated with his math (compacted). He screams and sets off other students. The other students are scared and I’m frustrated. Everyone refuses to be his partner which further enrages him.

I have 4 other students with hefty IEP’s and 3 with 504 plans. This 7 kids ALL have preferential seating.

Plenty others will not stop talking.

I am a 20 year veteran teacher who has always been highly rated and requested by parents. It has never been this bad.

My primary responsibility seems to have changed from providing high quality education to being a babysitter and just trying to keep kids safe. I hate teaching now. It used to be fun for students and teachers but the behaviors and lack of discipline/ consequences have made it a daily hell.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
Another agreement that it makes sense, and that I agree. NP

And the research demonstrating otherwise?

Feel free to cite a recent, solid source, if you like.

30 years experience in the classroom. Listen to the people actually in the buildings, doing the work. Research means nothing when these people havent stepped foot in a classroom in years, or usually, ever.

I don't quite know how to say this without causing offense, but that is exactly not research -- and research was the topic at hand.

But if you want to indirectly state that your evidence is purely anecdotal, then fair enough. State away.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I am a parent of such a child. No thanks to the school system, she's never hurt anyone.

They refuse to make classes for these kids.

It is not a funding issue!

It is not a staffing issue!

It's a combination of hoping kids will age out (hence the long delays at every step)

And misplaced concerns about equity.

(My child is white, and I'd be thrilled for them to be in a self contained class with anyone of any color. Don't believe me? Find out how long the waiting list for such classes is in your district.)

Schools have been fighting these things longer than the word equity has existed. It's 100% about money.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I am a teacher and things are out of control. I have a student flipping a desk on almost a daily basis because he gets frustrated with his math (compacted). He screams and sets off other students. The other students are scared and I’m frustrated. Everyone refuses to be his partner which further enrages him.

I have 4 other students with hefty IEP’s and 3 with 504 plans. This 7 kids ALL have preferential seating.

Plenty others will not stop talking.

I am a 20 year veteran teacher who has always been highly rated and requested by parents. It has never been this bad.

My primary responsibility seems to have changed from providing high quality education to being a babysitter and just trying to keep kids safe. I hate teaching now. It used to be fun for students and teachers but the behaviors and lack of discipline/ consequences have made it a daily hell.

What can parents do? What will make the administration take action?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am a parent of such a child. No thanks to the school system, she's never hurt anyone.

They refuse to make classes for these kids.

It is not a funding issue!

It is not a staffing issue!

It's a combination of hoping kids will age out (hence the long delays at every step)

And misplaced concerns about equity.

(My child is white, and I'd be thrilled for them to be in a self contained class with anyone of any color. Don't believe me? Find out how long the waiting list for such classes is in your district.)

Schools have been fighting these things longer than the word equity has existed. It's 100% about money.

Wrong
It is about test scores and optics

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't have a dog in this fight but you all should be so very grateful that you do not have a child who has these challenges. Take just a moment and think what it must be like for those parents.

One can feel sympathy for the families dealing with these issues, and also recognize that the current policies don’t work. Kids should not have to evacuate a classroom because their classmate is throwing furniture. Students who throw things or otherwise abuse their teachers or classmates should not be in mainstream classrooms. Sympathy for their parents doesn’t change that.

Shouldn’t this be called attempted murder?!

throwing a tub of playdoh is attempted murder?

Throwing chairs and tables, not “Play-Doh,” but then, you already knew that.

"Throwing" tables? That's impressive. How high and how far?

My kid was in a class in 4th grade where the student would flip desks over, throw chairs and threw the trash can. Some of these 4th and 5th grade students can be pretty strong.

OK. The PP said students were throwing tables. I'd like to see that. From a distance, of course. Flipping over tables isn't as impressive. Or dangerous.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't have a dog in this fight but you all should be so very grateful that you do not have a child who has these challenges. Take just a moment and think what it must be like for those parents.

One can feel sympathy for the families dealing with these issues, and also recognize that the current policies don’t work. Kids should not have to evacuate a classroom because their classmate is throwing furniture. Students who throw things or otherwise abuse their teachers or classmates should not be in mainstream classrooms. Sympathy for their parents doesn’t change that.

Shouldn’t this be called attempted murder?!

throwing a tub of playdoh is attempted murder?

Throwing chairs and tables, not “Play-Doh,” but then, you already knew that.

"Throwing" tables? That's impressive. How high and how far?

My kid was in a class in 4th grade where the student would flip desks over, throw chairs and threw the trash can. Some of these 4th and 5th grade students can be pretty strong.

OK. The PP said students were throwing tables. I'd like to see that. From a distance, of course. Flipping over tables isn't as impressive. Or dangerous.

Nobody cares about what impresses you and your sense of danger is misplaced. You as a grown adult are better equipped to deal with and defend yourself from violence. Kids, not so much. This type of activity has no place in a classroom

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am a parent of such a child. No thanks to the school system, she's never hurt anyone.

They refuse to make classes for these kids.

It is not a funding issue!

It is not a staffing issue!

It's a combination of hoping kids will age out (hence the long delays at every step)

And misplaced concerns about equity.

(My child is white, and I'd be thrilled for them to be in a self contained class with anyone of any color. Don't believe me? Find out how long the waiting list for such classes is in your district.)

How many classes should they make? Self contained classes can have 5-15 students. How many classes that small can be made in a district where schools are already over crowded. Do you expect Gen Ed classes to now hold 50+ kids??

I would love to see 2 self contained classes per elem school. My kid was in the Asperger’s program. His class was mixed grades. It would be great if there was a k-2 and a 3-5 class.

For what people are suggesting here, two self-contained classrooms wouldn't be enough. Besides the fact that you wouldn't be able to appropriately accommodate their disabilities by simply grouping them all together, there would be too many students to fit into two classrooms.

And you'd also run out of physical classrooms.

While some parents don't want their kids to go into self-contained classrooms, that's not nearly the limiting factor on the size/number of self-contained classrooms in MCPS. There are lots of parents that want their kids in special education programs, but can't get placement. The main issue is that it is cheaper to teach kids with disabilities in general education classrooms. And it is even cheaper to teach them in general education classrooms without the necessary special education supports and services. So that's what MCPS does whenever they can get away with it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't have a dog in this fight but you all should be so very grateful that you do not have a child who has these challenges. Take just a moment and think what it must be like for those parents.

One can feel sympathy for the families dealing with these issues, and also recognize that the current policies don’t work. Kids should not have to evacuate a classroom because their classmate is throwing furniture. Students who throw things or otherwise abuse their teachers or classmates should not be in mainstream classrooms. Sympathy for their parents doesn’t change that.

Shouldn’t this be called attempted murder?!

throwing a tub of playdoh is attempted murder?

Throwing chairs and tables, not “Play-Doh,” but then, you already knew that.

"Throwing" tables? That's impressive. How high and how far?

My kid was in a class in 4th grade where the student would flip desks over, throw chairs and threw the trash can. Some of these 4th and 5th grade students can be pretty strong.

OK. The PP said students were throwing tables. I'd like to see that. From a distance, of course. Flipping over tables isn't as impressive. Or dangerous.

Nobody cares about what impresses you and your sense of danger is misplaced. You as a grown adult are better equipped to deal with and defend yourself from violence. Kids, not so much. This type of activity has no place in a classroom

Nor is it OK to lie or exaggerate about what kids are and are not doing in classrooms.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't have a dog in this fight but you all should be so very grateful that you do not have a child who has these challenges. Take just a moment and think what it must be like for those parents.

One can feel sympathy for the families dealing with these issues, and also recognize that the current policies don’t work. Kids should not have to evacuate a classroom because their classmate is throwing furniture. Students who throw things or otherwise abuse their teachers or classmates should not be in mainstream classrooms. Sympathy for their parents doesn’t change that.

Shouldn’t this be called attempted murder?!

throwing a tub of playdoh is attempted murder?

Throwing chairs and tables, not “Play-Doh,” but then, you already knew that.

"Throwing" tables? That's impressive. How high and how far?

My kid was in a class in 4th grade where the student would flip desks over, throw chairs and threw the trash can. Some of these 4th and 5th grade students can be pretty strong.

OK. The PP said students were throwing tables. I'd like to see that. From a distance, of course. Flipping over tables isn't as impressive. Or dangerous.

Nobody cares about what impresses you and your sense of danger is misplaced. You as a grown adult are better equipped to deal with and defend yourself from violence. Kids, not so much. This type of activity has no place in a classroom

Nor is it OK to lie or exaggerate about what kids are and are not doing in classrooms.

Fair enough. So can we agree that it is highly unlikely (if not impossible) that the children in question were throwing actual tables, but they may have been throwing chairs, waste cans, office equipment, or other less heavy objects, as well as being disruptive or frightening to classmates verbally and physically, and move on? I am more than happy to grant that.

DP

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Unpopular opinion but LRE is not beneficial for the students its in place for. So many children need to be in a resource room in order to receive the support and services they need. This is both academically and behaviorally. In theory, it looks great on paper and it sounds great for equity. However, in practice, it is not best practice for all of the students in the classroom.

I think this as well.

That post doesn't even make sense. How can you think that as well?

It most assuredly does make sense, and I agree with it also. DP

Another agreement that it makes sense, and that I agree. NP

And the research demonstrating otherwise?

Feel free to cite a recent, solid source, if you like.

30 years experience in the classroom. Listen to the people actually in the buildings, doing the work. Research means nothing when these people havent stepped foot in a classroom in years, or usually, ever.

I'm really curious how you're able to get a broad view of long-term outcomes of students placed in different settings as a classroom teacher. How do you know how your students would have performed if some were placed in a different classroom and teacher? And how do you know about long-term outcomes after they leave your classroom and school? Care to explain?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't have a dog in this fight but you all should be so very grateful that you do not have a child who has these challenges. Take just a moment and think what it must be like for those parents.

One can feel sympathy for the families dealing with these issues, and also recognize that the current policies don’t work. Kids should not have to evacuate a classroom because their classmate is throwing furniture. Students who throw things or otherwise abuse their teachers or classmates should not be in mainstream classrooms. Sympathy for their parents doesn’t change that.

Shouldn’t this be called attempted murder?!

throwing a tub of playdoh is attempted murder?

Throwing chairs and tables, not “Play-Doh,” but then, you already knew that.

"Throwing" tables? That's impressive. How high and how far?

My kid was in a class in 4th grade where the student would flip desks over, throw chairs and threw the trash can. Some of these 4th and 5th grade students can be pretty strong.

OK. The PP said students were throwing tables. I'd like to see that. From a distance, of course. Flipping over tables isn't as impressive. Or dangerous.

Nobody cares about what impresses you and your sense of danger is misplaced. You as a grown adult are better equipped to deal with and defend yourself from violence. Kids, not so much. This type of activity has no place in a classroom

Nor is it OK to lie or exaggerate about what kids are and are not doing in classrooms.

Fair enough. So can we agree that it is highly unlikely (if not impossible) that the children in question were throwing actual tables, but they may have been throwing chairs, waste cans, office equipment, or other less heavy objects, as well as being disruptive or frightening to classmates verbally and physically, and move on? I am more than happy to grant that.

DP

Yes, that sounds quite plausible. But there's an ongoing issue with exaggeration in these discussions, and I doubt your post is going to change that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't have a dog in this fight but you all should be so very grateful that you do not have a child who has these challenges. Take just a moment and think what it must be like for those parents.

One can feel sympathy for the families dealing with these issues, and also recognize that the current policies don’t work. Kids should not have to evacuate a classroom because their classmate is throwing furniture. Students who throw things or otherwise abuse their teachers or classmates should not be in mainstream classrooms. Sympathy for their parents doesn’t change that.

Shouldn’t this be called attempted murder?!

throwing a tub of playdoh is attempted murder?

Throwing chairs and tables, not “Play-Doh,” but then, you already knew that.[/quote


"Throwing" tables? That's impressive. How high and how far?

My kid was in a class in 4th grade where the student would flip desks over, throw chairs and threw the trash can. Some of these 4th and 5th grade students can be pretty strong.

OK. The PP said students were throwing tables. I'd like to see that. From a distance, of course. Flipping over tables isn't as impressive. Or dangerous.

Nobody cares about what impresses you and your sense of danger is misplaced. You as a grown adult are better equipped to deal with and defend yourself from violence. Kids, not so much. This type of activity has no place in a classroom

Nor is it OK to lie or exaggerate about what kids are and are not doing in classrooms.

When we start talking about the weight and speed of the thrown object to determine what the threat amounts to, I think the plot has been lost. For most people, throwing objects is wrong and it doesn't much matter if the trash can was empty or full at the time it was launched.