Why are kids with problematic behavior left in mainstream classes

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Sometimes the best placement is online school

In other words, the streets

School is not daycare or a prison. It can be delivered online effectively.

Clearly you live in a bubble. Who is making the kid do the work?

Teachers can’t make them do it in class either. They can choose to do the work or they can choose to fail. At least they aren’t disrupting the students who are there to actually learn. It’s not fair to the other kids.

I suppose the kids would kill each other in the inner city before reaching adulthood.

Let them do online school instead

+1. If you are violent or disruptive to other students, you should be put into online self-study away from the other students. Online learning can be very effective.

This is just a silly argument. Who's going to supervise the student at home? Most families can't afford to not work or hire a babysitter.

It's extremely effective for the other 29 students who won't be constantly disrupted and attacked.

Still an absurd premise.

Why do you assume they would be sent home?! Students could do their online studies in a supervised study hall with coaches on-site to help facilitate online learning. Online studies are actually highly effective because the software dynamically adjusts to the level where the particular student is at. Millions of kids already do online learning to great success.

Keep digging- you're not quite to China yet.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:It’s because of parents who refuse to believe their “little angels” are the problem and instead blame schools and teachers for their kids’ bad behavior and the admins and school boards who enable and coddle those parents.

No it isn't. There is nowhere else for those parents to put their kids unless they can afford a lawyer.

I’m a school counselor. This PP is correct. There used to be more options. Now it’s the “home school” model. Only they didn’t allocate enough resources to the home school, so it’s a set up for failure.

NP- can you talk about what other options there used to be? I'm very interested in learning more. I know we didn't have problem behaviors when I was in school, but I was a kid and wasn't aware of other places or where they went.

DP here. So people have raised this multiple times.. why can't virtual school be an option for those kids who misbehave, bully, etc? Seems to me that it's the most appropriate and less expensive choice. If your kid is a bully, causes fights, is disrespectful, causes harm to others, etc. then they should be "kicked out" of in-person school and provided virtual schooling for x amount of time depending on the severity of the case.

The problem with this approach is that we live in a society. Yes, it would be better for my individual kid for the other individual kid to get kicked out of school. However, on a population level, it is BAD to effectively condemn a huge swathe of our youth to finishing their education at 3rd grade, or 7th grade, or whatever. The same issues (whether they are related to disability, trauma, or home life) that keep a child from learning in the classroom are going to keep them from learning at home. So then what. In 10 years we have a feral gang of children who were sent home to finish their education online back when they were 9?

So the other option is the return of special schools that used to accommodate these types of students; but that's no longer on the table. If virtual schooling is also not a viable option, then the only other option is to leave the kids in the mainstream classroom; which is fine but if the system eliminates discipline and drastically reduce suspensions (which they have), then that too is unacceptable. So what's more important? To pacify a small group that causes harm or to ensure that the majority of students are getting a decent and equitable education?

It’s not that specialized schools, classes and programs are no longer in the table, but funding and program model don’t seem to be. Specialized schools and classes requirement space, people and funding. Also, kids should not be regulated there once they are able to exhibit changes in their behavior. There should be a model to reintegrate and stabilize them into a Gen Ed classroom.

Everyone cries as if we spend no money on special ed. Hiring individual aides to accompany kids around all day is already expensive. Holding endless IEP meetings where nothing is accomplished is expensive. Hiring and training new teachers to replace the ones who are driven out by bad behavior is expensive. Declining skills and knowledge in our kids is expensive. Money is not the reason why special schools went away, and it won't be the reason why they won't come back. These administrators do not want to bring back special "rooms" or "schools" filled with black and brown kids. That's the reason.

Are you really not aware of the existing special education programs within MCPS?

Are you really not aware of the limiting of programs that has occurred- especially in elementary? LAD programs used to be 6 kid classrooms, now they are gone and in their place is full inclusion in the home school model. SESES used to be around 6 kids- now they are up to 11 with less support. Newcomers with interrupted education used to have separate schools- now they are fully mainstreamed with 0 support (don’t even get me started about the horrible SLIFE program). Learning Center programs used to be small self contained classes filled with diploma bound students- no more. Now they are a mix of diploma and certificate students and with class sizes up to 18!! 18 all with insane IEP’s. Autism programs used to have close to a 1-1 ratio. NOPE. Now they’re a 1-2 people trying to corral 5-6 highly impacted students.

Now combine all this with the behavior issues we are seeing with our NT children, and we have quite the mess.

A classroom can be managed when there are 1-2 challenging children. But there’s no hope with our current classroom compositions. Things have gone too far and we need to return to more options for education. One size does not fit all!

The previous poster claimed MCPS got rid of self-contained programs in favor of full inclusion. As your post demonstrates, MCPS didn't do that. There are a fairly large number of self-contained and partially integrated options. But MCPS isn't funding them appropriately because it is cheaper to keep students in gen ed classrooms without even provided proper supports.

Adding to that, schools make it worse by grouping kids with IEPs in common gen ed classrooms. And even then the school tries to provide the bare minimum special education supports to those students and teachers.

No, there is nothing in my post that says MCPS totally got rid of self-contained programs, but they closed special schools related to behavior. And now folks are wringing their hands as if there is no solution to kids with bad behavior being in classrooms.

They closed special schools related to behavior not for budgetary reasons, but because they were overwhelmingly segregated.

DS would be perfect for such a school. And we're not a minority.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:https://jri.org/services/educational-and-residential/day-schools

Massachusetts has four day schools that function as therapeutic schools, without the boarding element.

Capacity: 30- 50 students.

How is it not cheaper to run a therapeutic day school than a boarding school?

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here. There are similar programs in Maryland. But it is very hard to get private placement and the programs are very expensive.

That's because these programs are all or nothing. What is needed is an in between space.

What does that mean? It's true that private programs generally cater to those with the highest needs. There are MCPS programs that target children with less significant needs, although many are still self-contained. What sort of other "in-between" option is missing in your mind?

Better integrated options would be nice, but MCPS seems to really fight attempts to get additional supports in gen-ed environments. You might be able to get it if both the parents and the principal are willing to put pressure on central for those resources, but it takes a lot of work and luck.

Why do you think mcps fights against integrated options and additional supports in Gen ed environments?

There's an entire failure process that has to end with.... An even more expensive placement

Of course it comes down to money. But the favorite proposal of this thread-- more segregated options-- is even more expensive.

Why do you think more segregated options are more expensive than what we have now??????

Which is failing kids out into private placement and traumatizing everyone else in the classroom?????

Very, very few students get private placement, even when parents fight hard for it. Private placement isn't what we have now. We have a system where schools group kids with IEPs into one or two classrooms in an attempt to minimize the number of special educators and paraeducators they need. Self-contained programs that are appropriately staffed are absolutely more expensive than that.

You’re forgetting about all the other kids in the class who are being prevented from learning because of these disruptions. That learning loss (not to mention the trauma in some cases) also needs to be addressed eventually, which also costs money - way more than getting kids who can’t behave appropriately out of the mainstream classrooms.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Here’s your answer OP. This is so freakin’ on point:

https://fb.watch/nRyJ_N5-rL/?mibextid=v7YzmG

Wow.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:It’s because of parents who refuse to believe their “little angels” are the problem and instead blame schools and teachers for their kids’ bad behavior and the admins and school boards who enable and coddle those parents.

No it isn't. There is nowhere else for those parents to put their kids unless they can afford a lawyer.

I’m a school counselor. This PP is correct. There used to be more options. Now it’s the “home school” model. Only they didn’t allocate enough resources to the home school, so it’s a set up for failure.

NP- can you talk about what other options there used to be? I'm very interested in learning more. I know we didn't have problem behaviors when I was in school, but I was a kid and wasn't aware of other places or where they went.

DP here. So people have raised this multiple times.. why can't virtual school be an option for those kids who misbehave, bully, etc? Seems to me that it's the most appropriate and less expensive choice. If your kid is a bully, causes fights, is disrespectful, causes harm to others, etc. then they should be "kicked out" of in-person school and provided virtual schooling for x amount of time depending on the severity of the case.

The problem with this approach is that we live in a society. Yes, it would be better for my individual kid for the other individual kid to get kicked out of school. However, on a population level, it is BAD to effectively condemn a huge swathe of our youth to finishing their education at 3rd grade, or 7th grade, or whatever. The same issues (whether they are related to disability, trauma, or home life) that keep a child from learning in the classroom are going to keep them from learning at home. So then what. In 10 years we have a feral gang of children who were sent home to finish their education online back when they were 9?

So the other option is the return of special schools that used to accommodate these types of students; but that's no longer on the table. If virtual schooling is also not a viable option, then the only other option is to leave the kids in the mainstream classroom; which is fine but if the system eliminates discipline and drastically reduce suspensions (which they have), then that too is unacceptable. So what's more important? To pacify a small group that causes harm or to ensure that the majority of students are getting a decent and equitable education?

It’s not that specialized schools, classes and programs are no longer in the table, but funding and program model don’t seem to be. Specialized schools and classes requirement space, people and funding. Also, kids should not be regulated there once they are able to exhibit changes in their behavior. There should be a model to reintegrate and stabilize them into a Gen Ed classroom.

Everyone cries as if we spend no money on special ed. Hiring individual aides to accompany kids around all day is already expensive. Holding endless IEP meetings where nothing is accomplished is expensive. Hiring and training new teachers to replace the ones who are driven out by bad behavior is expensive. Declining skills and knowledge in our kids is expensive. Money is not the reason why special schools went away, and it won't be the reason why they won't come back. These administrators do not want to bring back special "rooms" or "schools" filled with black and brown kids. That's the reason.

Are you really not aware of the existing special education programs within MCPS?

Are you really not aware of the limiting of programs that has occurred- especially in elementary? LAD programs used to be 6 kid classrooms, now they are gone and in their place is full inclusion in the home school model. SESES used to be around 6 kids- now they are up to 11 with less support. Newcomers with interrupted education used to have separate schools- now they are fully mainstreamed with 0 support (don’t even get me started about the horrible SLIFE program). Learning Center programs used to be small self contained classes filled with diploma bound students- no more. Now they are a mix of diploma and certificate students and with class sizes up to 18!! 18 all with insane IEP’s. Autism programs used to have close to a 1-1 ratio. NOPE. Now they’re a 1-2 people trying to corral 5-6 highly impacted students.

Now combine all this with the behavior issues we are seeing with our NT children, and we have quite the mess.

A classroom can be managed when there are 1-2 challenging children. But there’s no hope with our current classroom compositions. Things have gone too far and we need to return to more options for education. One size does not fit all!

The previous poster claimed MCPS got rid of self-contained programs in favor of full inclusion. As your post demonstrates, MCPS didn't do that. There are a fairly large number of self-contained and partially integrated options. But MCPS isn't funding them appropriately because it is cheaper to keep students in gen ed classrooms without even provided proper supports.

Adding to that, schools make it worse by grouping kids with IEPs in common gen ed classrooms. And even then the school tries to provide the bare minimum special education supports to those students and teachers.

MCPS has a limited pie. They can't fund everything. (Time to kill Bocce!)

I haven't read this whole thread, but keep seeing posts like these and cannot believe how unbelievably uninformed parents are. It's called IDEA. It's been around since 1975. It means everybody is entitled to a fair and equitable education. Practice understanding and tolerance, please.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s because of parents who refuse to believe their “little angels” are the problem and instead blame schools and teachers for their kids’ bad behavior and the admins and school boards who enable and coddle those parents.

No it isn't. There is nowhere else for those parents to put their kids unless they can afford a lawyer.

I’m a school counselor. This PP is correct. There used to be more options. Now it’s the “home school” model. Only they didn’t allocate enough resources to the home school, so it’s a set up for failure.

NP- can you talk about what other options there used to be? I'm very interested in learning more. I know we didn't have problem behaviors when I was in school, but I was a kid and wasn't aware of other places or where they went.

DP here. So people have raised this multiple times.. why can't virtual school be an option for those kids who misbehave, bully, etc? Seems to me that it's the most appropriate and less expensive choice. If your kid is a bully, causes fights, is disrespectful, causes harm to others, etc. then they should be "kicked out" of in-person school and provided virtual schooling for x amount of time depending on the severity of the case.

The problem with this approach is that we live in a society. Yes, it would be better for my individual kid for the other individual kid to get kicked out of school. However, on a population level, it is BAD to effectively condemn a huge swathe of our youth to finishing their education at 3rd grade, or 7th grade, or whatever. The same issues (whether they are related to disability, trauma, or home life) that keep a child from learning in the classroom are going to keep them from learning at home. So then what. In 10 years we have a feral gang of children who were sent home to finish their education online back when they were 9?

So the other option is the return of special schools that used to accommodate these types of students; but that's no longer on the table. If virtual schooling is also not a viable option, then the only other option is to leave the kids in the mainstream classroom; which is fine but if the system eliminates discipline and drastically reduce suspensions (which they have), then that too is unacceptable. So what's more important? To pacify a small group that causes harm or to ensure that the majority of students are getting a decent and equitable education?

It’s not that specialized schools, classes and programs are no longer in the table, but funding and program model don’t seem to be. Specialized schools and classes requirement space, people and funding. Also, kids should not be regulated there once they are able to exhibit changes in their behavior. There should be a model to reintegrate and stabilize them into a Gen Ed classroom.

Everyone cries as if we spend no money on special ed. Hiring individual aides to accompany kids around all day is already expensive. Holding endless IEP meetings where nothing is accomplished is expensive. Hiring and training new teachers to replace the ones who are driven out by bad behavior is expensive. Declining skills and knowledge in our kids is expensive. Money is not the reason why special schools went away, and it won't be the reason why they won't come back. These administrators do not want to bring back special "rooms" or "schools" filled with black and brown kids. That's the reason.

Are you really not aware of the existing special education programs within MCPS?

Are you really not aware of the limiting of programs that has occurred- especially in elementary? LAD programs used to be 6 kid classrooms, now they are gone and in their place is full inclusion in the home school model. SESES used to be around 6 kids- now they are up to 11 with less support. Newcomers with interrupted education used to have separate schools- now they are fully mainstreamed with 0 support (don’t even get me started about the horrible SLIFE program). Learning Center programs used to be small self contained classes filled with diploma bound students- no more. Now they are a mix of diploma and certificate students and with class sizes up to 18!! 18 all with insane IEP’s. Autism programs used to have close to a 1-1 ratio. NOPE. Now they’re a 1-2 people trying to corral 5-6 highly impacted students.

Now combine all this with the behavior issues we are seeing with our NT children, and we have quite the mess.

A classroom can be managed when there are 1-2 challenging children. But there’s no hope with our current classroom compositions. Things have gone too far and we need to return to more options for education. One size does not fit all!

The previous poster claimed MCPS got rid of self-contained programs in favor of full inclusion. As your post demonstrates, MCPS didn't do that. There are a fairly large number of self-contained and partially integrated options. But MCPS isn't funding them appropriately because it is cheaper to keep students in gen ed classrooms without even provided proper supports.

Adding to that, schools make it worse by grouping kids with IEPs in common gen ed classrooms. And even then the school tries to provide the bare minimum special education supports to those students and teachers.

MCPS has a limited pie. They can't fund everything. (Time to kill Bocce!)

I haven't read this whole thread, but keep seeing posts like these and cannot believe how unbelievably uninformed parents are. It's called IDEA. It's been around since 1975. It means everybody is entitled to a fair and equitable education. Practice understanding and tolerance, please.

And yet the implementation of this has changed massively in the last 10-15 years. It has not been like this since 1975.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s because of parents who refuse to believe their “little angels” are the problem and instead blame schools and teachers for their kids’ bad behavior and the admins and school boards who enable and coddle those parents.

No it isn't. There is nowhere else for those parents to put their kids unless they can afford a lawyer.

I’m a school counselor. This PP is correct. There used to be more options. Now it’s the “home school” model. Only they didn’t allocate enough resources to the home school, so it’s a set up for failure.

NP- can you talk about what other options there used to be? I'm very interested in learning more. I know we didn't have problem behaviors when I was in school, but I was a kid and wasn't aware of other places or where they went.

DP here. So people have raised this multiple times.. why can't virtual school be an option for those kids who misbehave, bully, etc? Seems to me that it's the most appropriate and less expensive choice. If your kid is a bully, causes fights, is disrespectful, causes harm to others, etc. then they should be "kicked out" of in-person school and provided virtual schooling for x amount of time depending on the severity of the case.

The problem with this approach is that we live in a society. Yes, it would be better for my individual kid for the other individual kid to get kicked out of school. However, on a population level, it is BAD to effectively condemn a huge swathe of our youth to finishing their education at 3rd grade, or 7th grade, or whatever. The same issues (whether they are related to disability, trauma, or home life) that keep a child from learning in the classroom are going to keep them from learning at home. So then what. In 10 years we have a feral gang of children who were sent home to finish their education online back when they were 9?

So the other option is the return of special schools that used to accommodate these types of students; but that's no longer on the table. If virtual schooling is also not a viable option, then the only other option is to leave the kids in the mainstream classroom; which is fine but if the system eliminates discipline and drastically reduce suspensions (which they have), then that too is unacceptable. So what's more important? To pacify a small group that causes harm or to ensure that the majority of students are getting a decent and equitable education?

It’s not that specialized schools, classes and programs are no longer in the table, but funding and program model don’t seem to be. Specialized schools and classes requirement space, people and funding. Also, kids should not be regulated there once they are able to exhibit changes in their behavior. There should be a model to reintegrate and stabilize them into a Gen Ed classroom.

Everyone cries as if we spend no money on special ed. Hiring individual aides to accompany kids around all day is already expensive. Holding endless IEP meetings where nothing is accomplished is expensive. Hiring and training new teachers to replace the ones who are driven out by bad behavior is expensive. Declining skills and knowledge in our kids is expensive. Money is not the reason why special schools went away, and it won't be the reason why they won't come back. These administrators do not want to bring back special "rooms" or "schools" filled with black and brown kids. That's the reason.

Are you really not aware of the existing special education programs within MCPS?

Are you really not aware of the limiting of programs that has occurred- especially in elementary? LAD programs used to be 6 kid classrooms, now they are gone and in their place is full inclusion in the home school model. SESES used to be around 6 kids- now they are up to 11 with less support. Newcomers with interrupted education used to have separate schools- now they are fully mainstreamed with 0 support (don’t even get me started about the horrible SLIFE program). Learning Center programs used to be small self contained classes filled with diploma bound students- no more. Now they are a mix of diploma and certificate students and with class sizes up to 18!! 18 all with insane IEP’s. Autism programs used to have close to a 1-1 ratio. NOPE. Now they’re a 1-2 people trying to corral 5-6 highly impacted students.

Now combine all this with the behavior issues we are seeing with our NT children, and we have quite the mess.

A classroom can be managed when there are 1-2 challenging children. But there’s no hope with our current classroom compositions. Things have gone too far and we need to return to more options for education. One size does not fit all!

The previous poster claimed MCPS got rid of self-contained programs in favor of full inclusion. As your post demonstrates, MCPS didn't do that. There are a fairly large number of self-contained and partially integrated options. But MCPS isn't funding them appropriately because it is cheaper to keep students in gen ed classrooms without even provided proper supports.

Adding to that, schools make it worse by grouping kids with IEPs in common gen ed classrooms. And even then the school tries to provide the bare minimum special education supports to those students and teachers.

MCPS has a limited pie. They can't fund everything. (Time to kill Bocce!)

Why kill Bocce, why not baseball? Or football as we know the harsh injuries and mental problems that can create? At least Bocce has the benefits of being inclusive and taking up less space.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s because of parents who refuse to believe their “little angels” are the problem and instead blame schools and teachers for their kids’ bad behavior and the admins and school boards who enable and coddle those parents.

No it isn't. There is nowhere else for those parents to put their kids unless they can afford a lawyer.

I’m a school counselor. This PP is correct. There used to be more options. Now it’s the “home school” model. Only they didn’t allocate enough resources to the home school, so it’s a set up for failure.

NP- can you talk about what other options there used to be? I'm very interested in learning more. I know we didn't have problem behaviors when I was in school, but I was a kid and wasn't aware of other places or where they went.

DP here. So people have raised this multiple times.. why can't virtual school be an option for those kids who misbehave, bully, etc? Seems to me that it's the most appropriate and less expensive choice. If your kid is a bully, causes fights, is disrespectful, causes harm to others, etc. then they should be "kicked out" of in-person school and provided virtual schooling for x amount of time depending on the severity of the case.

The problem with this approach is that we live in a society. Yes, it would be better for my individual kid for the other individual kid to get kicked out of school. However, on a population level, it is BAD to effectively condemn a huge swathe of our youth to finishing their education at 3rd grade, or 7th grade, or whatever. The same issues (whether they are related to disability, trauma, or home life) that keep a child from learning in the classroom are going to keep them from learning at home. So then what. In 10 years we have a feral gang of children who were sent home to finish their education online back when they were 9?

So the other option is the return of special schools that used to accommodate these types of students; but that's no longer on the table. If virtual schooling is also not a viable option, then the only other option is to leave the kids in the mainstream classroom; which is fine but if the system eliminates discipline and drastically reduce suspensions (which they have), then that too is unacceptable. So what's more important? To pacify a small group that causes harm or to ensure that the majority of students are getting a decent and equitable education?

It’s not that specialized schools, classes and programs are no longer in the table, but funding and program model don’t seem to be. Specialized schools and classes requirement space, people and funding. Also, kids should not be regulated there once they are able to exhibit changes in their behavior. There should be a model to reintegrate and stabilize them into a Gen Ed classroom.

Everyone cries as if we spend no money on special ed. Hiring individual aides to accompany kids around all day is already expensive. Holding endless IEP meetings where nothing is accomplished is expensive. Hiring and training new teachers to replace the ones who are driven out by bad behavior is expensive. Declining skills and knowledge in our kids is expensive. Money is not the reason why special schools went away, and it won't be the reason why they won't come back. These administrators do not want to bring back special "rooms" or "schools" filled with black and brown kids. That's the reason.

Are you really not aware of the existing special education programs within MCPS?

Are you really not aware of the limiting of programs that has occurred- especially in elementary? LAD programs used to be 6 kid classrooms, now they are gone and in their place is full inclusion in the home school model. SESES used to be around 6 kids- now they are up to 11 with less support. Newcomers with interrupted education used to have separate schools- now they are fully mainstreamed with 0 support (don’t even get me started about the horrible SLIFE program). Learning Center programs used to be small self contained classes filled with diploma bound students- no more. Now they are a mix of diploma and certificate students and with class sizes up to 18!! 18 all with insane IEP’s. Autism programs used to have close to a 1-1 ratio. NOPE. Now they’re a 1-2 people trying to corral 5-6 highly impacted students.

Now combine all this with the behavior issues we are seeing with our NT children, and we have quite the mess.

A classroom can be managed when there are 1-2 challenging children. But there’s no hope with our current classroom compositions. Things have gone too far and we need to return to more options for education. One size does not fit all!

The previous poster claimed MCPS got rid of self-contained programs in favor of full inclusion. As your post demonstrates, MCPS didn't do that. There are a fairly large number of self-contained and partially integrated options. But MCPS isn't funding them appropriately because it is cheaper to keep students in gen ed classrooms without even provided proper supports.

Adding to that, schools make it worse by grouping kids with IEPs in common gen ed classrooms. And even then the school tries to provide the bare minimum special education supports to those students and teachers.

No, there is nothing in my post that says MCPS totally got rid of self-contained programs, but they closed special schools related to behavior. And now folks are wringing their hands as if there is no solution to kids with bad behavior being in classrooms.

They closed special schools related to behavior not for budgetary reasons, but because they were overwhelmingly segregated.

DS would be perfect for such a school. And we're not a minority.

What programs were closed, rather than moved to be colocated with other schools, or replaced with other programs?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s because of parents who refuse to believe their “little angels” are the problem and instead blame schools and teachers for their kids’ bad behavior and the admins and school boards who enable and coddle those parents.

No it isn't. There is nowhere else for those parents to put their kids unless they can afford a lawyer.

I’m a school counselor. This PP is correct. There used to be more options. Now it’s the “home school” model. Only they didn’t allocate enough resources to the home school, so it’s a set up for failure.

NP- can you talk about what other options there used to be? I'm very interested in learning more. I know we didn't have problem behaviors when I was in school, but I was a kid and wasn't aware of other places or where they went.

DP here. So people have raised this multiple times.. why can't virtual school be an option for those kids who misbehave, bully, etc? Seems to me that it's the most appropriate and less expensive choice. If your kid is a bully, causes fights, is disrespectful, causes harm to others, etc. then they should be "kicked out" of in-person school and provided virtual schooling for x amount of time depending on the severity of the case.

The problem with this approach is that we live in a society. Yes, it would be better for my individual kid for the other individual kid to get kicked out of school. However, on a population level, it is BAD to effectively condemn a huge swathe of our youth to finishing their education at 3rd grade, or 7th grade, or whatever. The same issues (whether they are related to disability, trauma, or home life) that keep a child from learning in the classroom are going to keep them from learning at home. So then what. In 10 years we have a feral gang of children who were sent home to finish their education online back when they were 9?

So the other option is the return of special schools that used to accommodate these types of students; but that's no longer on the table. If virtual schooling is also not a viable option, then the only other option is to leave the kids in the mainstream classroom; which is fine but if the system eliminates discipline and drastically reduce suspensions (which they have), then that too is unacceptable. So what's more important? To pacify a small group that causes harm or to ensure that the majority of students are getting a decent and equitable education?

It’s not that specialized schools, classes and programs are no longer in the table, but funding and program model don’t seem to be. Specialized schools and classes requirement space, people and funding. Also, kids should not be regulated there once they are able to exhibit changes in their behavior. There should be a model to reintegrate and stabilize them into a Gen Ed classroom.

Everyone cries as if we spend no money on special ed. Hiring individual aides to accompany kids around all day is already expensive. Holding endless IEP meetings where nothing is accomplished is expensive. Hiring and training new teachers to replace the ones who are driven out by bad behavior is expensive. Declining skills and knowledge in our kids is expensive. Money is not the reason why special schools went away, and it won't be the reason why they won't come back. These administrators do not want to bring back special "rooms" or "schools" filled with black and brown kids. That's the reason.

Are you really not aware of the existing special education programs within MCPS?

Are you really not aware of the limiting of programs that has occurred- especially in elementary? LAD programs used to be 6 kid classrooms, now they are gone and in their place is full inclusion in the home school model. SESES used to be around 6 kids- now they are up to 11 with less support. Newcomers with interrupted education used to have separate schools- now they are fully mainstreamed with 0 support (don’t even get me started about the horrible SLIFE program). Learning Center programs used to be small self contained classes filled with diploma bound students- no more. Now they are a mix of diploma and certificate students and with class sizes up to 18!! 18 all with insane IEP’s. Autism programs used to have close to a 1-1 ratio. NOPE. Now they’re a 1-2 people trying to corral 5-6 highly impacted students.

Now combine all this with the behavior issues we are seeing with our NT children, and we have quite the mess.

A classroom can be managed when there are 1-2 challenging children. But there’s no hope with our current classroom compositions. Things have gone too far and we need to return to more options for education. One size does not fit all!

The previous poster claimed MCPS got rid of self-contained programs in favor of full inclusion. As your post demonstrates, MCPS didn't do that. There are a fairly large number of self-contained and partially integrated options. But MCPS isn't funding them appropriately because it is cheaper to keep students in gen ed classrooms without even provided proper supports.

Adding to that, schools make it worse by grouping kids with IEPs in common gen ed classrooms. And even then the school tries to provide the bare minimum special education supports to those students and teachers.

No, there is nothing in my post that says MCPS totally got rid of self-contained programs, but they closed special schools related to behavior. And now folks are wringing their hands as if there is no solution to kids with bad behavior being in classrooms.

They closed special schools related to behavior not for budgetary reasons, but because they were overwhelmingly segregated.

DS would be perfect for such a school. And we're not a minority.

What programs were closed, rather than moved to be colocated with other schools, or replaced with other programs?

You think the other schools had all this extra space just to absorb a colocated school? What do you think happened?

Colocated is a good word, I'll remember it. When you put two schools in a building that formerly housed 1 school, nothing changes for anyone, except they are now colocated.

And the programs replacing them are much smaller.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:It’s because of parents who refuse to believe their “little angels” are the problem and instead blame schools and teachers for their kids’ bad behavior and the admins and school boards who enable and coddle those parents.

No it isn't. There is nowhere else for those parents to put their kids unless they can afford a lawyer.

I’m a school counselor. This PP is correct. There used to be more options. Now it’s the “home school” model. Only they didn’t allocate enough resources to the home school, so it’s a set up for failure.

NP- can you talk about what other options there used to be? I'm very interested in learning more. I know we didn't have problem behaviors when I was in school, but I was a kid and wasn't aware of other places or where they went.

DP here. So people have raised this multiple times.. why can't virtual school be an option for those kids who misbehave, bully, etc? Seems to me that it's the most appropriate and less expensive choice. If your kid is a bully, causes fights, is disrespectful, causes harm to others, etc. then they should be "kicked out" of in-person school and provided virtual schooling for x amount of time depending on the severity of the case.

The problem with this approach is that we live in a society. Yes, it would be better for my individual kid for the other individual kid to get kicked out of school. However, on a population level, it is BAD to effectively condemn a huge swathe of our youth to finishing their education at 3rd grade, or 7th grade, or whatever. The same issues (whether they are related to disability, trauma, or home life) that keep a child from learning in the classroom are going to keep them from learning at home. So then what. In 10 years we have a feral gang of children who were sent home to finish their education online back when they were 9?

So the other option is the return of special schools that used to accommodate these types of students; but that's no longer on the table. If virtual schooling is also not a viable option, then the only other option is to leave the kids in the mainstream classroom; which is fine but if the system eliminates discipline and drastically reduce suspensions (which they have), then that too is unacceptable. So what's more important? To pacify a small group that causes harm or to ensure that the majority of students are getting a decent and equitable education?

It’s not that specialized schools, classes and programs are no longer in the table, but funding and program model don’t seem to be. Specialized schools and classes requirement space, people and funding. Also, kids should not be regulated there once they are able to exhibit changes in their behavior. There should be a model to reintegrate and stabilize them into a Gen Ed classroom.

Everyone cries as if we spend no money on special ed. Hiring individual aides to accompany kids around all day is already expensive. Holding endless IEP meetings where nothing is accomplished is expensive. Hiring and training new teachers to replace the ones who are driven out by bad behavior is expensive. Declining skills and knowledge in our kids is expensive. Money is not the reason why special schools went away, and it won't be the reason why they won't come back. These administrators do not want to bring back special "rooms" or "schools" filled with black and brown kids. That's the reason.

Are you really not aware of the existing special education programs within MCPS?

Are you really not aware of the limiting of programs that has occurred- especially in elementary? LAD programs used to be 6 kid classrooms, now they are gone and in their place is full inclusion in the home school model. SESES used to be around 6 kids- now they are up to 11 with less support. Newcomers with interrupted education used to have separate schools- now they are fully mainstreamed with 0 support (don’t even get me started about the horrible SLIFE program). Learning Center programs used to be small self contained classes filled with diploma bound students- no more. Now they are a mix of diploma and certificate students and with class sizes up to 18!! 18 all with insane IEP’s. Autism programs used to have close to a 1-1 ratio. NOPE. Now they’re a 1-2 people trying to corral 5-6 highly impacted students.

Now combine all this with the behavior issues we are seeing with our NT children, and we have quite the mess.

A classroom can be managed when there are 1-2 challenging children. But there’s no hope with our current classroom compositions. Things have gone too far and we need to return to more options for education. One size does not fit all!

The previous poster claimed MCPS got rid of self-contained programs in favor of full inclusion. As your post demonstrates, MCPS didn't do that. There are a fairly large number of self-contained and partially integrated options. But MCPS isn't funding them appropriately because it is cheaper to keep students in gen ed classrooms without even provided proper supports.

Adding to that, schools make it worse by grouping kids with IEPs in common gen ed classrooms. And even then the school tries to provide the bare minimum special education supports to those students and teachers.

No, there is nothing in my post that says MCPS totally got rid of self-contained programs, but they closed special schools related to behavior. And now folks are wringing their hands as if there is no solution to kids with bad behavior being in classrooms.

They closed special schools related to behavior not for budgetary reasons, but because they were overwhelmingly segregated.

DS would be perfect for such a school. And we're not a minority.

What programs were closed, rather than moved to be colocated with other schools, or replaced with other programs?

You think the other schools had all this extra space just to absorb a colocated school? What do you think happened?

Colocated is a good word, I'll remember it. When you put two schools in a building that formerly housed 1 school, nothing changes for anyone, except they are now colocated.

And the programs replacing them are much smaller.

Again, which schools closed and were replaced with "much smaller" programs? Carl Sandburg, I believe, has always been colocated. Rock Terrace moved, but enrollment isn't much smaller than it was. The autism and SESES programs have always been located in community schools.

[Anonymous]

They closed the Mark Twain alternative school about 15 years ago. It was basically a failing school with mostly minorities. Not a good look.

They have also mostly shut down the METS programs where ESL students with limited, unstable education were assigned to focus on their specific needs. Now these kids are more mainstreamed in the general Ed programs with less support basically due to the race optics. I consider a new form of racism. Functionally, they are not getting help because of their race/ethnicity. It makes equity about optics to me instead of actually putting kids in the programs they need to be successful. We would just rather lower standards and move them along.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:They closed the Mark Twain alternative school about 15 years ago. It was basically a failing school with mostly minorities. Not a good look.

They have also mostly shut down the METS programs where ESL students with limited, unstable education were assigned to focus on their specific needs. Now these kids are more mainstreamed in the general Ed programs with less support basically due to the race optics. I consider a new form of racism. Functionally, they are not getting help because of their race/ethnicity. It makes equity about optics to me instead of actually putting kids in the programs they need to be successful. We would just rather lower standards and move them along.

How is MCPS supposed to fix broken homes, which is often the root cause for a lot of the behavioral issues that landed kids in Mark Twain in the first place?

The problem is we expect schools to fix what parents, families and communities are responsible for.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:They closed the Mark Twain alternative school about 15 years ago. It was basically a failing school with mostly minorities. Not a good look.

They have also mostly shut down the METS programs where ESL students with limited, unstable education were assigned to focus on their specific needs. Now these kids are more mainstreamed in the general Ed programs with less support basically due to the race optics. I consider a new form of racism. Functionally, they are not getting help because of their race/ethnicity. It makes equity about optics to me instead of actually putting kids in the programs they need to be successful. We would just rather lower standards and move them along.

Exactly.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They closed the Mark Twain alternative school about 15 years ago. It was basically a failing school with mostly minorities. Not a good look.

They have also mostly shut down the METS programs where ESL students with limited, unstable education were assigned to focus on their specific needs. Now these kids are more mainstreamed in the general Ed programs with less support basically due to the race optics. I consider a new form of racism. Functionally, they are not getting help because of their race/ethnicity. It makes equity about optics to me instead of actually putting kids in the programs they need to be successful. We would just rather lower standards and move them along.

How is MCPS supposed to fix broken homes, which is often the root cause for a lot of the behavioral issues that landed kids in Mark Twain in the first place?

The problem is we expect schools to fix what parents, families and communities are responsible for.

Pretending they don't exist doesn't help either

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They closed the Mark Twain alternative school about 15 years ago. It was basically a failing school with mostly minorities. Not a good look.

They have also mostly shut down the METS programs where ESL students with limited, unstable education were assigned to focus on their specific needs. Now these kids are more mainstreamed in the general Ed programs with less support basically due to the race optics. I consider a new form of racism. Functionally, they are not getting help because of their race/ethnicity. It makes equity about optics to me instead of actually putting kids in the programs they need to be successful. We would just rather lower standards and move them along.

How is MCPS supposed to fix broken homes, which is often the root cause for a lot of the behavioral issues that landed kids in Mark Twain in the first place?

The problem is we expect schools to fix what parents, families and communities are responsible for.

Pretending they don't exist doesn't help either

You're not answering the question. No one is pretending these things don't exist. But expecting teachers or principals to fill in the gaps caused by parents who abuse substances, traumatic divorces or neglectful parents is unfair to teachers and admin who are there to teach academic material to your kids. You can't keep stretching the school system to solve problems it was never built to solve.