Why are kids with problematic behavior left in mainstream classes

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:They closed the Mark Twain alternative school about 15 years ago. It was basically a failing school with mostly minorities. Not a good look.

They have also mostly shut down the METS programs where ESL students with limited, unstable education were assigned to focus on their specific needs. Now these kids are more mainstreamed in the general Ed programs with less support basically due to the race optics. I consider a new form of racism. Functionally, they are not getting help because of their race/ethnicity. It makes equity about optics to me instead of actually putting kids in the programs they need to be successful. We would just rather lower standards and move them along.

How did the Mark Twain population differ from the RICA population?

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:It’s because of parents who refuse to believe their “little angels” are the problem and instead blame schools and teachers for their kids’ bad behavior and the admins and school boards who enable and coddle those parents.

No it isn't. There is nowhere else for those parents to put their kids unless they can afford a lawyer.

I’m a school counselor. This PP is correct. There used to be more options. Now it’s the “home school” model. Only they didn’t allocate enough resources to the home school, so it’s a set up for failure.

NP- can you talk about what other options there used to be? I'm very interested in learning more. I know we didn't have problem behaviors when I was in school, but I was a kid and wasn't aware of other places or where they went.

DP here. So people have raised this multiple times.. why can't virtual school be an option for those kids who misbehave, bully, etc? Seems to me that it's the most appropriate and less expensive choice. If your kid is a bully, causes fights, is disrespectful, causes harm to others, etc. then they should be "kicked out" of in-person school and provided virtual schooling for x amount of time depending on the severity of the case.

The problem with this approach is that we live in a society. Yes, it would be better for my individual kid for the other individual kid to get kicked out of school. However, on a population level, it is BAD to effectively condemn a huge swathe of our youth to finishing their education at 3rd grade, or 7th grade, or whatever. The same issues (whether they are related to disability, trauma, or home life) that keep a child from learning in the classroom are going to keep them from learning at home. So then what. In 10 years we have a feral gang of children who were sent home to finish their education online back when they were 9?

So the other option is the return of special schools that used to accommodate these types of students; but that's no longer on the table. If virtual schooling is also not a viable option, then the only other option is to leave the kids in the mainstream classroom; which is fine but if the system eliminates discipline and drastically reduce suspensions (which they have), then that too is unacceptable. So what's more important? To pacify a small group that causes harm or to ensure that the majority of students are getting a decent and equitable education?

It’s not that specialized schools, classes and programs are no longer in the table, but funding and program model don’t seem to be. Specialized schools and classes requirement space, people and funding. Also, kids should not be regulated there once they are able to exhibit changes in their behavior. There should be a model to reintegrate and stabilize them into a Gen Ed classroom.

Everyone cries as if we spend no money on special ed. Hiring individual aides to accompany kids around all day is already expensive. Holding endless IEP meetings where nothing is accomplished is expensive. Hiring and training new teachers to replace the ones who are driven out by bad behavior is expensive. Declining skills and knowledge in our kids is expensive. Money is not the reason why special schools went away, and it won't be the reason why they won't come back. These administrators do not want to bring back special "rooms" or "schools" filled with black and brown kids. That's the reason.

Are you really not aware of the existing special education programs within MCPS?

Are you really not aware of the limiting of programs that has occurred- especially in elementary? LAD programs used to be 6 kid classrooms, now they are gone and in their place is full inclusion in the home school model. SESES used to be around 6 kids- now they are up to 11 with less support. Newcomers with interrupted education used to have separate schools- now they are fully mainstreamed with 0 support (don’t even get me started about the horrible SLIFE program). Learning Center programs used to be small self contained classes filled with diploma bound students- no more. Now they are a mix of diploma and certificate students and with class sizes up to 18!! 18 all with insane IEP’s. Autism programs used to have close to a 1-1 ratio. NOPE. Now they’re a 1-2 people trying to corral 5-6 highly impacted students.

Now combine all this with the behavior issues we are seeing with our NT children, and we have quite the mess.

A classroom can be managed when there are 1-2 challenging children. But there’s no hope with our current classroom compositions. Things have gone too far and we need to return to more options for education. One size does not fit all!

The previous poster claimed MCPS got rid of self-contained programs in favor of full inclusion. As your post demonstrates, MCPS didn't do that. There are a fairly large number of self-contained and partially integrated options. But MCPS isn't funding them appropriately because it is cheaper to keep students in gen ed classrooms without even provided proper supports.

Adding to that, schools make it worse by grouping kids with IEPs in common gen ed classrooms. And even then the school tries to provide the bare minimum special education supports to those students and teachers.

MCPS has a limited pie. They can't fund everything. (Time to kill Bocce!)

Why kill Bocce, why not baseball? Or football as we know the harsh injuries and mental problems that can create? At least Bocce has the benefits of being inclusive and taking up less space.

Damn you, Poe's Law!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They closed the Mark Twain alternative school about 15 years ago. It was basically a failing school with mostly minorities. Not a good look.

They have also mostly shut down the METS programs where ESL students with limited, unstable education were assigned to focus on their specific needs. Now these kids are more mainstreamed in the general Ed programs with less support basically due to the race optics. I consider a new form of racism. Functionally, they are not getting help because of their race/ethnicity. It makes equity about optics to me instead of actually putting kids in the programs they need to be successful. We would just rather lower standards and move them along.

How did the Mark Twain population differ from the RICA population?

I’ve been told that RICA students have mental health issues that cause their behavior while MT students made the choice to act the way they did.

[Anonymous]

A lot of these comments on the thread area confusing "problematic behavior" with special needs. We're not talking about autistic kids, deaf kids or even kids with ADHD. These are violent, disruptive kids who can't learn in the classroom. Maybe they possibly have ADHD, but it's not the problem.

The kids I know with severe special needs (non verbal or Down Syndrome) are getting the help they need.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:A lot of these comments on the thread area confusing "problematic behavior" with special needs. We're not talking about autistic kids, deaf kids or even kids with ADHD. These are violent, disruptive kids who can't learn in the classroom. Maybe they possibly have ADHD, but it's not the problem.

The kids I know with severe special needs (non verbal or Down Syndrome) are getting the help they need.

Many, but not all, of the children with autism and/or ADHD are violent and disruptive in a classroom setting. These are the ones who need to be moved.

By definition, they are lacking social awareness and emotional management skills. And it gets worse as they hit puberty.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They closed the Mark Twain alternative school about 15 years ago. It was basically a failing school with mostly minorities. Not a good look.

They have also mostly shut down the METS programs where ESL students with limited, unstable education were assigned to focus on their specific needs. Now these kids are more mainstreamed in the general Ed programs with less support basically due to the race optics. I consider a new form of racism. Functionally, they are not getting help because of their race/ethnicity. It makes equity about optics to me instead of actually putting kids in the programs they need to be successful. We would just rather lower standards and move them along.

How did the Mark Twain population differ from the RICA population?

I’ve been told that RICA students have mental health issues that cause their behavior while MT students made the choice to act the way they did.

Good thing it closed down, then. They probably ran out of students who choose to act badly, now that everyone is diagnosed with something.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They closed the Mark Twain alternative school about 15 years ago. It was basically a failing school with mostly minorities. Not a good look.

They have also mostly shut down the METS programs where ESL students with limited, unstable education were assigned to focus on their specific needs. Now these kids are more mainstreamed in the general Ed programs with less support basically due to the race optics. I consider a new form of racism. Functionally, they are not getting help because of their race/ethnicity. It makes equity about optics to me instead of actually putting kids in the programs they need to be successful. We would just rather lower standards and move them along.

How did the Mark Twain population differ from the RICA population?

This. I have EML (formerly called ESOL) kids in my classroom who barely speak a word of English. I’m not sure how to help them as I don’t speak Spanish and I teach Honors math/science. It is a hard class and the poor kids have no idea what is going on. And I have 30 other kids in the classroom so I can’t give them much help. It sucks but our school has decided to mainstream them so it is what it is

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They closed the Mark Twain alternative school about 15 years ago. It was basically a failing school with mostly minorities. Not a good look.

They have also mostly shut down the METS programs where ESL students with limited, unstable education were assigned to focus on their specific needs. Now these kids are more mainstreamed in the general Ed programs with less support basically due to the race optics. I consider a new form of racism. Functionally, they are not getting help because of their race/ethnicity. It makes equity about optics to me instead of actually putting kids in the programs they need to be successful. We would just rather lower standards and move them along.

How did the Mark Twain population differ from the RICA population?

I’ve been told that RICA students have mental health issues that cause their behavior while MT students made the choice to act the way they did.

Good thing it closed down, then. They probably ran out of students who choose to act badly, now that everyone is diagnosed with something.

Mark Twain was not for badly behaved kids. Mark Twain was at school for kids with learning disabilities. Kids went there when they were dyslexic or had other learning disabilities. When the law was passed that these children needed to be mainstreamed, parents knew the law had the mainstreamed. Mark Twain became a school for kids that were misbehaving, because teachers wanted to get rid of certain students because they were hard to teach so they sent them to Mark Twain.. That went on for about eight years and then they closed it.

[Anonymous]

An interesting read about MT

https://files.eric.ed.gov/fulltext/ED256801.pdf

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:A lot of these comments on the thread area confusing "problematic behavior" with special needs. We're not talking about autistic kids, deaf kids or even kids with ADHD. These are violent, disruptive kids who can't learn in the classroom. Maybe they possibly have ADHD, but it's not the problem.

The kids I know with severe special needs (non verbal or Down Syndrome) are getting the help they need.

Based on two family members, I think some of the out of control kids were lead exposed before preschool or exposed to street drugs in utero.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Stop blaming Covid. School has been in person two full years. It’s a parenting and school issue. It’s rare a teacher has good full control and most give up and do nothing as the parents don’t care. And, those of us who do, it’s a constant battle.

This is way too simplistic. IME, the most problematic kids have something else going on- be it developmental or a learning disability.

100%. The kids who can’t control their behavior have special needs. Autism, ADHD, bipolar, ODD, etc. Many have been evaluated and are medicated but still need support at school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Stop blaming Covid. School has been in person two full years. It’s a parenting and school issue. It’s rare a teacher has good full control and most give up and do nothing as the parents don’t care. And, those of us who do, it’s a constant battle.

This is way too simplistic. IME, the most problematic kids have something else going on- be it developmental or a learning disability.

100%. The kids who can’t control their behavior have special needs. Autism, ADHD, bipolar, ODD, etc. Many have been evaluated and are medicated but still need support at school.

you have no idea what you're talking about. Sure, some SN kids can't control their behavior. Tons of gen ed kids can't, either.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:An interesting read about MT

https://files.eric.ed.gov/fulltext/ED256801.pdf

Interesting read from 1984. 300 students. Majority white male. Emotional disturbance. About 1/3 also learning disabled. Typical alternative program for a public school system to have.

In imagine flash forward to 2010 and the school is now majority minority black and brown male creating very negative optics for MCPS and inviting possible investigations. So the kids are assigned to alt 1 and 2 programs or to more specialized SESES programs in middle schools and high schools.

[Anonymous]

My son was in the Asbergers program and now in Bridge. His class has been mostly white males for the last 5 yrs. There have been 1 or 2 white females over the years.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Stop blaming Covid. School has been in person two full years. It’s a parenting and school issue. It’s rare a teacher has good full control and most give up and do nothing as the parents don’t care. And, those of us who do, it’s a constant battle.

This is way too simplistic. IME, the most problematic kids have something else going on- be it developmental or a learning disability.

100%. The kids who can’t control their behavior have special needs. Autism, ADHD, bipolar, ODD, etc. Many have been evaluated and are medicated but still need support at school.

you have no idea what you're talking about. Sure, some SN kids can't control their behavior. Tons of gen ed kids can't, either.

I work in public schools. Many special needs are not obvious. These kids are super bright, socially motivated, and have involved parents… but they cannot stay regulated in a mainstream classroom.