Ivies vs. Top 20 schools (after listening to many a podcast on the subject)

[Anonymous]

You people crack me with your silly devotion to rankings made by a newspaper, as if it’s truth.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:You have to play the game these days to get into an Ivy. My daughter is at an Ivy now and very happy. Her goal through HS was to go to one specific Ivy but we are not legacy and have no hooks and she almost had a nervous breakdown trying to check all the boxes to be considered a strong applicant. Other kids at her school aiming for top schools were all the same. You need to game the process as much as possible. I know parents who helped their kids set up non-profits or who used their connections to get their kids fancy internships. I’m amazed how easily admissions officers get impressed by all this crap. Parents involvement is pretty clear but the admissions folks clearly choose to look the other way. Also, the number of incredibly wealthy kids at my kid’s Ivy school is astounding to both of us.

This is what gets me. I guess these kids show that they can handle a busy schedule, but the “accomplishments” are so often clearly parent-generated. I think they’re missing a lot of brilliant kids who just haven’t chosen to play the “game.”

My experience with hiring recent Ivy grads is that they are smart and good at working the system, but are not even close to being the most intellectual & interesting young people I’ve worked with.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:When I was a kid I thought college choice was incredibly important but as an adult I realize it really wasn't. What you do when you get there matters more. At my job we have someone who went to Yale and someone who went to Florida State. Same job.

One would equally say at her job an ivy grad and a two-year vocational school grad are doing the same job. So no college needed? You have to look at a large picture with a mind of statistics when making those arguments. What percentage of Yale grads made to the top and what percentage of FL State grads did the same? That 's what tells apart school from school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You have to play the game these days to get into an Ivy. My daughter is at an Ivy now and very happy. Her goal through HS was to go to one specific Ivy but we are not legacy and have no hooks and she almost had a nervous breakdown trying to check all the boxes to be considered a strong applicant. Other kids at her school aiming for top schools were all the same. You need to game the process as much as possible. I know parents who helped their kids set up non-profits or who used their connections to get their kids fancy internships. I’m amazed how easily admissions officers get impressed by all this crap. Parents involvement is pretty clear but the admissions folks clearly choose to look the other way. Also, the number of incredibly wealthy kids at my kid’s Ivy school is astounding to both of us.

This is what gets me. I guess these kids show that they can handle a busy schedule, but the “accomplishments” are so often clearly parent-generated. I think they’re missing a lot of brilliant kids who just haven’t chosen to play the “game.”

My experience with hiring recent Ivy grads is that they are smart and good at working the system, but are not even close to being the most intellectual & interesting young people I’ve worked with.

I see plenty trying to game the system but mostly the real deal seems to get through. And recruited athletes get through because for whatever reason, college sports are important here. The athletes I know that got through are very good athletes. I don't know what that has to do with academics but that ship has sailed.

[Anonymous]

How do you compare a public school to a private school? Private schools will always be more stringent and picky than public's. Even the UCs don't look at test scores anymore.

[Anonymous]

I want my kids to have fun, great teenage years with low pressure. I don’t want them to be little workaholics.

So we’re not trying for the ivies at all. It seems like an unappealing rat race unless the kid really is a superstar. Mine aren’t.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In many cases, parents have bulldozed the "achievements" of the successful applicants to the Ivies. There are very few kids who actually start their own non-profits/businesses on their own, like that.

You think this is a real thing?

You think you can spot these kids and admissions officers at ivy league schools can't?

Yes, there are def. parents who do this.

Please answer the entire question: You think they are successful, and that you can spot them, but Ivy league adcoms can't spot them?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You have to play the game these days to get into an Ivy. My daughter is at an Ivy now and very happy. Her goal through HS was to go to one specific Ivy but we are not legacy and have no hooks and she almost had a nervous breakdown trying to check all the boxes to be considered a strong applicant. Other kids at her school aiming for top schools were all the same. You need to game the process as much as possible. I know parents who helped their kids set up non-profits or who used their connections to get their kids fancy internships. I’m amazed how easily admissions officers get impressed by all this crap. Parents involvement is pretty clear but the admissions folks clearly choose to look the other way. Also, the number of incredibly wealthy kids at my kid’s Ivy school is astounding to both of us.

This is what gets me. I guess these kids show that they can handle a busy schedule, but the “accomplishments” are so often clearly parent-generated. I think they’re missing a lot of brilliant kids who just haven’t chosen to play the “game.”

My experience with hiring recent Ivy grads is that they are smart and good at working the system, but are not even close to being the most intellectual & interesting young people I’ve worked with.

I see plenty trying to game the system but mostly the real deal seems to get through. And recruited athletes get through because for whatever reason, college sports are important here. The athletes I know that got through are very good athletes. I don't know what that has to do with academics but that ship has sailed.

I guess it depends on what you think the “real deal” is. This is hard to describe, but I’ll try — in the distant past, H/Y/P etc were the domain of NE prep school kids and we few ultra smart kids from public school (mainly in the NE). At that time, their cachet mostly devolved out of their connections to rich and powerful, whose kids they educated. Eventually they were under pressure to increase racial and geographic diversity, and that effort, along with the common app, made them seem accessible to everyone (with good stats) which led to a massive increase in applications. They dealt with that by sorting for the most “qualified” applicants academically, which led to kids becoming focused on checking a series of very specific boxes. I think the admissions folks saw that, and realized it wasn’t good, hence the more recent focus on kids with “passion” for *something*. I do see a few truly unique and brilliant kids get in, but “passion” has just become another box to check for many (usually with the help of Mom and Dad). I would cite examples, but they’re pretty specific and would probably out me and the kids. Honestly, I blame USNWR and that ilk, as the schools can’t really take too many of those really focused, quirky kids who may not have perfect SATs or grades in every subject and 15 APs, because they were really focusing on their “passion.” I’m not mad about this; it’s just the way it is, but I do see that many brilliant, interesting, intellectual kids aren’t even applying to the Ivies because they see who is applying and who gets in, and are just not interested. I’m sure the Ivies don’t care, as they are still being inundated with applications, and their USNWR rankings will still look good, but I wonder if some of the shine is going to come off, eventually, from an academic perspective?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I want my kids to have fun, great teenage years with low pressure. I don’t want them to be little workaholics.

So we’re not trying for the ivies at all. It seems like an unappealing rat race unless the kid really is a superstar. Mine aren’t.

Hmm. And yet here you are on this thread?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Honestly, I blame USNWR and that ilk, as the schools can’t really take too many of those really focused, quirky kids who may not have perfect SATs or grades in every subject and 15 APs, because they were really focusing on their “passion.”

And yet they still do. They take every kid they want. They get to pick who that is.

Anonymous wrote:I’m not mad about this;

Could have fooled me.

Anonymous wrote:but I do see that many brilliant, interesting, intellectual kids aren’t even applying to the Ivies because they see who is applying and who gets in, and are just not interested.

Maybe they are not applying because since their brilliance allows them to understand math and that there are 20,000 ivy seats for 3.7 million graduating students, so even if they are in the top 1% it is about a 5% chance?

Anonymous wrote:I’m sure the Ivies don’t care, as they are still being inundated with applications, and their USNWR rankings will still look good

They DO care, and put a lot of effort into building the class they want to have. Are you suggesting they compromise that in some way? You have exactly zero evidence of that.

Anonymous wrote:I wonder if some of the shine is going to come off, eventually, from an academic perspective?

I will concede your thoughts are probably well intentioned, and you are likely a thoughtful person. But your general hypothesis: That Ivy League schools don't pick who they want or they should because of outside forces -- it completely false and unsupported by any data or testimony.

They pick who they want. They get to pick from a cohort that is largely comprised of the top performers. They always have, and they always will, pick exactly who they want to build the best class they can.

That's it.

There is no more analysis necessary, nor would it be helpful if there was.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You have to play the game these days to get into an Ivy. My daughter is at an Ivy now and very happy. Her goal through HS was to go to one specific Ivy but we are not legacy and have no hooks and she almost had a nervous breakdown trying to check all the boxes to be considered a strong applicant. Other kids at her school aiming for top schools were all the same. You need to game the process as much as possible. I know parents who helped their kids set up non-profits or who used their connections to get their kids fancy internships. I’m amazed how easily admissions officers get impressed by all this crap. Parents involvement is pretty clear but the admissions folks clearly choose to look the other way. Also, the number of incredibly wealthy kids at my kid’s Ivy school is astounding to both of us.

This is what gets me. I guess these kids show that they can handle a busy schedule, but the “accomplishments” are so often clearly parent-generated. I think they’re missing a lot of brilliant kids who just haven’t chosen to play the “game.”

My experience with hiring recent Ivy grads is that they are smart and good at working the system, but are not even close to being the most intellectual & interesting young people I’ve worked with.

I see plenty trying to game the system but mostly the real deal seems to get through. And recruited athletes get through because for whatever reason, college sports are important here. The athletes I know that got through are very good athletes. I don't know what that has to do with academics but that ship has sailed.

I guess it depends on what you think the “real deal” is. This is hard to describe, but I’ll try — in the distant past, H/Y/P etc were the domain of NE prep school kids and we few ultra smart kids from public school (mainly in the NE). At that time, their cachet mostly devolved out of their connections to rich and powerful, whose kids they educated. Eventually they were under pressure to increase racial and geographic diversity, and that effort, along with the common app, made them seem accessible to everyone (with good stats) which led to a massive increase in applications. They dealt with that by sorting for the most “qualified” applicants academically, which led to kids becoming focused on checking a series of very specific boxes. I think the admissions folks saw that, and realized it wasn’t good, hence the more recent focus on kids with “passion” for *something*. I do see a few truly unique and brilliant kids get in, but “passion” has just become another box to check for many (usually with the help of Mom and Dad). I would cite examples, but they’re pretty specific and would probably out me and the kids. Honestly, I blame USNWR and that ilk, as the schools can’t really take too many of those really focused, quirky kids who may not have perfect SATs or grades in every subject and 15 APs, because they were really focusing on their “passion.” I’m not mad about this; it’s just the way it is, but I do see that many brilliant, interesting, intellectual kids aren’t even applying to the Ivies because they see who is applying and who gets in, and are just not interested. I’m sure the Ivies don’t care, as they are still being inundated with applications, and their USNWR rankings will still look good, but I wonder if some of the shine is going to come off, eventually, from an academic perspective?

I think people just need a narrative to make themselves feel better about the fact that admissions to these schools have become so competitive and there are some incredibly bright kids who’ll be turned away. There have always been overtly intellectually kids who favored schools like Chicago or Oberlin over the Ivies, and kids who won’t apply to any schools they aren’t reasonably sure will accept them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You have to play the game these days to get into an Ivy. My daughter is at an Ivy now and very happy. Her goal through HS was to go to one specific Ivy but we are not legacy and have no hooks and she almost had a nervous breakdown trying to check all the boxes to be considered a strong applicant. Other kids at her school aiming for top schools were all the same. You need to game the process as much as possible. I know parents who helped their kids set up non-profits or who used their connections to get their kids fancy internships. I’m amazed how easily admissions officers get impressed by all this crap. Parents involvement is pretty clear but the admissions folks clearly choose to look the other way. Also, the number of incredibly wealthy kids at my kid’s Ivy school is astounding to both of us.

This is what gets me. I guess these kids show that they can handle a busy schedule, but the “accomplishments” are so often clearly parent-generated. I think they’re missing a lot of brilliant kids who just haven’t chosen to play the “game.”

My experience with hiring recent Ivy grads is that they are smart and good at working the system, but are not even close to being the most intellectual & interesting young people I’ve worked with.

I see plenty trying to game the system but mostly the real deal seems to get through. And recruited athletes get through because for whatever reason, college sports are important here. The athletes I know that got through are very good athletes. I don't know what that has to do with academics but that ship has sailed.

I guess it depends on what you think the “real deal” is. This is hard to describe, but I’ll try — in the distant past, H/Y/P etc were the domain of NE prep school kids and we few ultra smart kids from public school (mainly in the NE). At that time, their cachet mostly devolved out of their connections to rich and powerful, whose kids they educated. Eventually they were under pressure to increase racial and geographic diversity, and that effort, along with the common app, made them seem accessible to everyone (with good stats) which led to a massive increase in applications. They dealt with that by sorting for the most “qualified” applicants academically, which led to kids becoming focused on checking a series of very specific boxes. I think the admissions folks saw that, and realized it wasn’t good, hence the more recent focus on kids with “passion” for *something*. I do see a few truly unique and brilliant kids get in, but “passion” has just become another box to check for many (usually with the help of Mom and Dad). I would cite examples, but they’re pretty specific and would probably out me and the kids. Honestly, I blame USNWR and that ilk, as the schools can’t really take too many of those really focused, quirky kids who may not have perfect SATs or grades in every subject and 15 APs, because they were really focusing on their “passion.” I’m not mad about this; it’s just the way it is, but I do see that many brilliant, interesting, intellectual kids aren’t even applying to the Ivies because they see who is applying and who gets in, and are just not interested. I’m sure the Ivies don’t care, as they are still being inundated with applications, and their USNWR rankings will still look good, but I wonder if some of the shine is going to come off, eventually, from an academic perspective?

How will the shine come off if the average Ivy grades and test scores are so high/95th+ percentile? Also, if the passionate kids end up as stars in their fields, the shine continues.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:How will the shine come off if the average Ivy grades and test scores are so high/95th+ percentile?

It won't. Ever. Unless you believe the following:

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I want my kids to have fun, great teenage years with low pressure. I don’t want them to be little workaholics.

So we’re not trying for the ivies at all. It seems like an unappealing rat race unless the kid really is a superstar. Mine aren’t.

Hmm. And yet here you are on this thread?

Bc I click on recent topics for threads that sound interesting.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Honestly, I blame USNWR and that ilk, as the schools can’t really take too many of those really focused, quirky kids who may not have perfect SATs or grades in every subject and 15 APs, because they were really focusing on their “passion.”

And yet they still do. They take every kid they want. They get to pick who that is.

Anonymous wrote:I’m not mad about this;

Could have fooled me.

Anonymous wrote:but I do see that many brilliant, interesting, intellectual kids aren’t even applying to the Ivies because they see who is applying and who gets in, and are just not interested.

Maybe they are not applying because since their brilliance allows them to understand math and that there are 20,000 ivy seats for 3.7 million graduating students, so even if they are in the top 1% it is about a 5% chance?

Anonymous wrote:I’m sure the Ivies don’t care, as they are still being inundated with applications, and their USNWR rankings will still look good

They DO care, and put a lot of effort into building the class they want to have. Are you suggesting they compromise that in some way? You have exactly zero evidence of that.

Anonymous wrote:I wonder if some of the shine is going to come off, eventually, from an academic perspective?

I will concede your thoughts are probably well intentioned, and you are likely a thoughtful person. But your general hypothesis: That Ivy League schools don't pick who they want or they should because of outside forces -- it completely false and unsupported by any data or testimony.

They pick who they want. They get to pick from a cohort that is largely comprised of the top performers. They always have, and they always will, pick exactly who they want to build the best class they can.

That's it.

There is no more analysis necessary, nor would it be helpful if there was.

You seem really defensive. It’s always a red flag when people try to shut down a conversation by saying more analysis is not “helpful.”

I’m not arguing that they don’t have control over who they choose. I’m arguing that the criteria they use can be gamed, the students they end up taking are of a certain type, and this is resulting in a change in the way people perceive the institution. Maybe that is exactly what Harvard (et al) want. For all I know, that may be their goal. However, it may be that the fact that they are being inundated with applications requires a process that makes it difficult to make better decisions. I’ve seen multiple interviews with admissions officers who don’t seem happy about how the process works these days. I also think the fact that they have changed their stated focus for admissions shows that they must not be pleased with their results. Perhaps I should have said I blame the Common App as well as USNWR.

Trust me when I say I’m not mad — people who care are busy playing the game. I’m just saying that, whether it’s their goal or not, many brilliant/thoughtful kids who would have been greatly desired by Harvard, et al, in the past are taking a look at who gets in, and why, and opting out.

I had to laugh at the “they’re too smart to apply” argument. Thanks for making my point.

However, if you think any of these schools don’t keep an eagle eye on their USNWR ratings, I’ve got a bridge to sell you.