Ivies vs. Top 20 schools (after listening to many a podcast on the subject)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:You seem really defensive. It’s always a red flag when people try to shut down a conversation by saying more analysis is not “helpful.”

OK, then I will modify it. Your analysis is neither accurate or helpful.

Anonymous wrote:I’m not arguing that they don’t have control over who they choose. I’m arguing that the criteria they use can be gamed, the students they end up taking are of a certain type, and this is resulting in a change in the way people perceive the institution. However, it may be that the fact that they are being inundated with applications requires a process that makes it difficult to make better decisions.

It can't be gamed because it is not a game. You are essentially claiming that it can be gamed, and you know how, but the people running the colleges don't know it and can't tell who they genuinely want from those who are "gamed". That you know better then they do what they should do. It's presumptuous to the point of preposterous.

Anonymous wrote: I also think the fact that they have changed their stated focus for admissions shows that they must not be pleased with their results. Perhaps I should have said I blame the Common App as well as USNWR.

In what way does changing focus mean you are not pleased with results? That is a false dichotomy. Things change, goals change, and for the objective is to build the best class possible: end period. So change with the times and the priorities. It's not a conspiracy, it's common sense.

Anonymous wrote: Trust me when I say I’m not mad

Yeah, about that...

Anonymous wrote: I had to laugh at the “they’re too smart to apply” argument. Thanks for making my point.

I didn't say they were too smart to apply. Don't put words in my mouth. I said they were smart enough to understand the odds are tiny even for the best, and also smart enough to know if there were better places for them. What I did NOT say and what you falsely imply without evidence, is that they are too smart too participate in a corrupt and fixed game. It isn't one.

Anonymous wrote:However, if you think any of these schools don’t keep an eagle eye on their USNWR ratings, I’ve got a bridge to sell you.

I also never claimed they don't care about USN, so I don't know where you made that up from. Also, did you just admit to being the kind of person who enjoys selling someone else a bridge?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote: And of course it makes sense! It almost made me feel better - the Ivies *should* be for the tippy top students. Why do we want our kids breaking their back to be perfect teenagers unless they truly are superstars? Schools like UVA are still great and doesn't mean you've failed at anything, it just means that you were a normal teenager and they understand and even encourage this. Does anyone else feel the same way?

it's not just superstars getting into those schools, those schools are full of rich entitled preppy kids, just look at what UPenn spit out, yuck
I don't know if I want my kid that driven, always obsessing over work, I know kids that are high-achieving, for different reasons, some to have better life than their struggling parents, many of them are not very happy, I prefer my kid easy-going, spending time playing, not wasting time but some of that happens too, I'm happy if I see my kid being responsible, doing the homework, probably not going to be president or such but having good life ... it's true we help tons with money and other kids do not have that luxury, they have to think about paying their parents' debts

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:So I've been listening to a lot of podcasts about college admissions (mostly Inside the Admissions Office) and after listening to some of the instagram episodes Dean J from UVA, it really jumps out at me how different schools like Ivies look at candidates vs. schools like UVA.

Obviously, the Ivies are amazing. And anyone would be extremely lucky to go there. But listening to some of the Admissions Officers from the top schools on Inside the Admissions Office is really just so different from the way Dean J speaks. The admissions officers from the tippy top schools expect *so much* from the kids (obviously) to the point where listening just made me exhausted. They're talking about filling the entire awards section (with state and national and even international awards preferably) and running your own business or nonprofit and the importance of showing a passion and making a major contribution in that passion, etc. Whereas Dean J is always saying that they know that they're dealing with teenagers who are 17 and have school work to focus on and like to hang out with their friends on the weekend and maybe don't really have a passion yet or are allowed to change their mind if they do something for a year and then decide they don't like it.

And of course it makes sense! It almost made me feel better - the Ivies *should* be for the tippy top students. Why do we want our kids breaking their back to be perfect teenagers unless they truly are superstars? Schools like UVA are still great and doesn't mean you've failed at anything, it just means that you were a normal teenager and they understand and even encourage this. Does anyone else feel the same way?

What you described doesn't necessarily sound like the tippy top students. It sounds like a student who checked off a lot of boxes or got a push from mom and dad, or stressed themselves out or....They may very well be smart and willing to give up a lot of their life for what an Ivy admissions officer wants. Whether that's worth it or wise or anything else is up to each person to decide.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So I've been listening to a lot of podcasts about college admissions (mostly Inside the Admissions Office) and after listening to some of the instagram episodes Dean J from UVA, it really jumps out at me how different schools like Ivies look at candidates vs. schools like UVA.

Obviously, the Ivies are amazing. And anyone would be extremely lucky to go there. But listening to some of the Admissions Officers from the top schools on Inside the Admissions Office is really just so different from the way Dean J speaks. The admissions officers from the tippy top schools expect *so much* from the kids (obviously) to the point where listening just made me exhausted. They're talking about filling the entire awards section (with state and national and even international awards preferably) and running your own business or nonprofit and the importance of showing a passion and making a major contribution in that passion, etc. Whereas Dean J is always saying that they know that they're dealing with teenagers who are 17 and have school work to focus on and like to hang out with their friends on the weekend and maybe don't really have a passion yet or are allowed to change their mind if they do something for a year and then decide they don't like it.

And of course it makes sense! It almost made me feel better - the Ivies *should* be for the tippy top students. Why do we want our kids breaking their back to be perfect teenagers unless they truly are superstars? Schools like UVA are still great and doesn't mean you've failed at anything, it just means that you were a normal teenager and they understand and even encourage this. Does anyone else feel the same way?

What you described doesn't necessarily sound like the tippy top students. It sounds like a student who checked off a lot of boxes or got a push from mom and dad, or stressed themselves out or....They may very well be smart and willing to give up a lot of their life for what an Ivy admissions officer wants. Whether that's worth it or wise or anything else is up to each person to decide.

Or, that's who they are naturally, and it is obvious.

Driven does not equal stressed, even though they sometimes coexist.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote: And of course it makes sense! It almost made me feel better - the Ivies *should* be for the tippy top students. Why do we want our kids breaking their back to be perfect teenagers unless they truly are superstars? Schools like UVA are still great and doesn't mean you've failed at anything, it just means that you were a normal teenager and they understand and even encourage this. Does anyone else feel the same way?

it's not just superstars getting into those schools, those schools are full of rich entitled preppy kids, just look at what UPenn spit out, yuck
I don't know if I want my kid that driven, always obsessing over work, I know kids that are high-achieving, for different reasons, some to have better life than their struggling parents, many of them are not very happy, I prefer my kid easy-going, spending time playing, not wasting time but some of that happens too, I'm happy if I see my kid being responsible, doing the homework, probably not going to be president or such but having good life ... it's true we help tons with money and other kids do not have that luxury, they have to think about paying their parents' debts

Not all kids are that happy "playing". Some are happy studying or writing or researching or practicing an instrument. Different strokes for different folks. There is a fit for different kinds of students and people.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote: Not all kids are that happy "playing". Some are happy studying or writing or researching or practicing an instrument. Different strokes for different folks. There is a fit for different kinds of students and people.

those are not normal kids, those are the superstars OP has been talking about, kids driven by their innate ability to excel at something and their addiction to the rewards it brings, pleasure, recognition, but many of those high-achieving kids I'm talking about do not have any special talent just some ambition to achieve what their parents want from them, or to become rich unlike their parents ... those are not very happy because the reward is not immediate or within them

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You have to play the game these days to get into an Ivy. My daughter is at an Ivy now and very happy. Her goal through HS was to go to one specific Ivy but we are not legacy and have no hooks and she almost had a nervous breakdown trying to check all the boxes to be considered a strong applicant. Other kids at her school aiming for top schools were all the same. You need to game the process as much as possible. I know parents who helped their kids set up non-profits or who used their connections to get their kids fancy internships. I’m amazed how easily admissions officers get impressed by all this crap. Parents involvement is pretty clear but the admissions folks clearly choose to look the other way. Also, the number of incredibly wealthy kids at my kid’s Ivy school is astounding to both of us.

This is what gets me. I guess these kids show that they can handle a busy schedule, but the “accomplishments” are so often clearly parent-generated. I think they’re missing a lot of brilliant kids who just haven’t chosen to play the “game.”

My experience with hiring recent Ivy grads is that they are smart and good at working the system, but are not even close to being the most intellectual & interesting young people I’ve worked with.

I have the impression you've posted the same thing several times on this thread, and perhaps are barely keeping your resentment towards the Ivies in check, but let me just politely throw out the possibility that the most intellectual and interesting young Ivy grads aren't interested in your organization (whereas it may be a comparatively more attractive option for applicants coming from other schools).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The thread is a therapy session.

NP...what are you talking about? I think this is an interesting topic.

It seems like a therapy session to me in the sense that OP and perhaps others seem to like hashing out the admissions process at various schools as a way to reconcile themselves with the notion that their kids not applying to or getting into an Ivy is no great loss and in fact may serve them better in the long run. Many of us were already there without having to dissect the current process or throwing lots of gratuitous shade on recent or current Ivy students in the process.

[Anonymous]

There are a lot of ivy and other high level academic students out there....many thousands.....why stereotype them as they are individuals like every other college student?

[Anonymous]

Our private complied a booklet about various popular colleges. One Dean wrote that in the past Ivy students were upper crust but different in personality. Now he says the personality of the average Ivy student is “driven”.

[Anonymous]

That seems an apt description of a quality that many would have in common. And would a more cautious student even thrive in an environment like that?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Our private complied a booklet about various popular colleges. One Dean wrote that in the past Ivy students were upper crust but different in personality. Now he says the personality of the average Ivy student is “driven”.

You can be driven, but still have a different personality if different things motivate you.

You can also send your kids to a school where administrators try to affect an all-knowing tone. It's not a big revelation to learn the Ivies aren't letting in as many pedigreed slackers as they did 50 years ago.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:In many cases, parents have bulldozed the "achievements" of the successful applicants to the Ivies. There are very few kids who actually start their own non-profits/businesses on their own, like that.

This is so true.

It sometimes makes me think of predestinationism and Calvinism. I feel like there is this belief that some people are born to be graced with an Ivy League education, and those children will, because of their blessed nature, do great works and follow the Will of the Admissions Officer. However, no one really knows who the blessed are, or what they actually do. So, everyone is looking at all the people around them, seeing who other people say is blessed, and attempting to mimic what they are doing. Thereby, no one is doing what comes naturally at all, and the entire thing becomes a farce.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In many cases, parents have bulldozed the "achievements" of the successful applicants to the Ivies. There are very few kids who actually start their own non-profits/businesses on their own, like that.

This is so true.

It sometimes makes me think of predestinationism and Calvinism. I feel like there is this belief that some people are born to be graced with an Ivy League education, and those children will, because of their blessed nature, do great works and follow the Will of the Admissions Officer. However, no one really knows who the blessed are, or what they actually do. So, everyone is looking at all the people around them, seeing who other people say is blessed, and attempting to mimic what they are doing. Thereby, no one is doing what comes naturally at all, and the entire thing becomes a farce.

Weird take. You might be overthinking this a tad.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In many cases, parents have bulldozed the "achievements" of the successful applicants to the Ivies. There are very few kids who actually start their own non-profits/businesses on their own, like that.

This is so true.

It sometimes makes me think of predestinationism and Calvinism. I feel like there is this belief that some people are born to be graced with an Ivy League education, and those children will, because of their blessed nature, do great works and follow the Will of the Admissions Officer. However, no one really knows who the blessed are, or what they actually do. So, everyone is looking at all the people around them, seeing who other people say is blessed, and attempting to mimic what they are doing. Thereby, no one is doing what comes naturally at all, and the entire thing becomes a farce.

Weird take. You might be overthinking this a tad.

Lol...I promise I don’t think about it much. My kids are in elementary school and almost certainly not going to an Ivy League school.
These discussions just always remind me of predestination. I remember learning about it in high school and thinking that the entire Calvinist religion seemed insane. I mean, everyone participating must know that they are kind of faking it in order to prove to their neighbors that they are one of the ones going to Harvard ...sorry, I mean Heaven.

In all of these conversations, there is all of this talk about some kids being “born this way” or “having an innate ability” that others don’t have, and then there is this back and forth about how to determine who really “has” it. It always makes me wonder what it’s like to BE one of these young adults. I mean, part of you has to know that you faked it, or at least some of it. What kind of adult does that make you? How does that shape how you think of yourself? It seems like it would be the supreme recipe for narcissism, right? Feigned grandiosity in the face of a crushing superego. And these are the people running the world. The system doesn’t just find narcissists, it creates them from children.

I don’t know. Maybe I do think about it too much .