So many who don’t like/respect parents

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:All of my friends these days believe their mothers are “narcissists.” I nod along but it’s absolutely silly.

+1

Curious, what started this trend? A particular book or article? My sister is like this about our mother and I was really surprised when I heard her make these claims...

One of my sisters and her DH read a book called "Toxic Parents" about 20 years ago which confirmed in their minds that they were raised by horrible people. I can't really address BIL's upbringing, but my older sister and I have listened to the rants of our other sister and wonder if we were raised in the same house. Her list of grievances is LONG. Older sister and I love and like our mother (father is long dead), and accept that while she wasn't perfect, did her best and was also a good parent much of the time.

And BTW, the toxic shock sis has prickly relationships with her own children. She complains about them not measuring up. She of course has ongoing issues with of course the ILs, various neighbors, the public school system in her town, a former and present boss and the woman who delivers her mail.

+1. I'm not referring to the truly abusive parents, but this vague "toxicity" that is usually nothing more of a personality clash. I've seen this in my own family.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:All of my friends these days believe their mothers are “narcissists.” I nod along but it’s absolutely silly.

+1

Curious, what started this trend? A particular book or article? My sister is like this about our mother and I was really surprised when I heard her make these claims...

One of my sisters and her DH read a book called "Toxic Parents" about 20 years ago which confirmed in their minds that they were raised by horrible people. I can't really address BIL's upbringing, but my older sister and I have listened to the rants of our other sister and wonder if we were raised in the same house. Her list of grievances is LONG. Older sister and I love and like our mother (father is long dead), and accept that while she wasn't perfect, did her best and was also a good parent much of the time.

And BTW, the toxic shock sis has prickly relationships with her own children. She complains about them not measuring up. She of course has ongoing issues with of course the ILs, various neighbors, the public school system in her town, a former and present boss and the woman who delivers her mail.

+1. I'm not referring to the truly abusive parents, but this vague "toxicity" that is usually nothing more of a personality clash. I've seen this in my own family.

I think it’s a personality and gender thing. My grandfather (a long-time widow) loved my dad more - because when he visited, they’d sit down and talk for hours and bond, my dad would also drive my grandfather to his appointments and they’d bond over that too. When my aunt visited, she’d cook, clean, do his laundry - she had no time to sit and talk, she had to run to her own family and do domestic labor there (that’s besides a full-time job). As a result, my dad was clearly a preferred adult child, and my aunt was pretty upset about it and could never figure it out.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:All of my friends these days believe their mothers are “narcissists.” I nod along but it’s absolutely silly.

+1

Curious, what started this trend? A particular book or article? My sister is like this about our mother and I was really surprised when I heard her make these claims...

One of my sisters and her DH read a book called "Toxic Parents" about 20 years ago which confirmed in their minds that they were raised by horrible people. I can't really address BIL's upbringing, but my older sister and I have listened to the rants of our other sister and wonder if we were raised in the same house. Her list of grievances is LONG. Older sister and I love and like our mother (father is long dead), and accept that while she wasn't perfect, did her best and was also a good parent much of the time.

And BTW, the toxic shock sis has prickly relationships with her own children. She complains about them not measuring up. She of course has ongoing issues with of course the ILs, various neighbors, the public school system in her town, a former and present boss and the woman who delivers her mail.

+1. I'm not referring to the truly abusive parents, but this vague "toxicity" that is usually nothing more of a personality clash. I've seen this in my own family.

Toxic means abusive...usually referring to emotional abuse

I am the scapegoat of my family and don't talk to them anymore. But if you'd ask my siblings, they would say we were a perfect family growing up and that nothing was even close to toxic. That's their point of view, and as the golden children I'm sure they had a great time getting the love and support that they needed, while seeing what happens to the scapegoat and staying in line so they will never be the scapegoat. My treatment didn't negatively impact them and if they paid attention I'm sure it was hard to see, so they likely blocked it or changed the narrative in their head. This is part of what makes all of this so hard.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:and cut them off. And many people say that’s ok.

What happens when you don’t like who your children turned out to be?

I don't think there are as many as you think even though DCUM is full of those people. I think it's the same group of parent-haters that keep posting here because they have nothing better to do with their lives. Don't think DCUM reflects real life. Only for some.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:All of my friends these days believe their mothers are “narcissists.” I nod along but it’s absolutely silly.

+1

Curious, what started this trend? A particular book or article? My sister is like this about our mother and I was really surprised when I heard her make these claims...

One of my sisters and her DH read a book called "Toxic Parents" about 20 years ago which confirmed in their minds that they were raised by horrible people. I can't really address BIL's upbringing, but my older sister and I have listened to the rants of our other sister and wonder if we were raised in the same house. Her list of grievances is LONG. Older sister and I love and like our mother (father is long dead), and accept that while she wasn't perfect, did her best and was also a good parent much of the time.

And BTW, the toxic shock sis has prickly relationships with her own children. She complains about them not measuring up. She of course has ongoing issues with of course the ILs, various neighbors, the public school system in her town, a former and present boss and the woman who delivers her mail.

+1. I'm not referring to the truly abusive parents, but this vague "toxicity" that is usually nothing more of a personality clash. I've seen this in my own family.

I think it’s a personality and gender thing. My grandfather (a long-time widow) loved my dad more - because when he visited, they’d sit down and talk for hours and bond, my dad would also drive my grandfather to his appointments and they’d bond over that too. When my aunt visited, she’d cook, clean, do his laundry - she had no time to sit and talk, she had to run to her own family and do domestic labor there (that’s besides a full-time job). As a result, my dad was clearly a preferred adult child, and my aunt was pretty upset about it and could never figure it out.

Oh, so your grandfather treated your dad as a person and equal, and treated your aunt like a maid, and somehow it’s your aunt’s fault that she wasn’t the preferred child?

My dad does this to me, with my brothers and my husband. He talks to them, asks them questions, and ignores me. He expects me to silently busy myself with cooking or cleaning while “the men” enjoy each other’s company.

And now he wonders why we don’t visit more often, and has even speculated to others that it’s because my husband doesn’t like him (my husband dislikes how my father treats me, but has no specific issue with him separate from that — I am the reason we don’t visit). My dad can’t even fathom that I’m enough of a person to care about being ignored and treated like household help.

It’s not a “personality” thing. It’s deeply held misogyny and reflects abusuve parenting patterns. Your aunt should let you grandfather fester in his filth. Your dad, the preferred child, can clean it up.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:All of my friends these days believe their mothers are “narcissists.” I nod along but it’s absolutely silly.

+1

Curious, what started this trend? A particular book or article? My sister is like this about our mother and I was really surprised when I heard her make these claims...

One of my sisters and her DH read a book called "Toxic Parents" about 20 years ago which confirmed in their minds that they were raised by horrible people. I can't really address BIL's upbringing, but my older sister and I have listened to the rants of our other sister and wonder if we were raised in the same house. Her list of grievances is LONG. Older sister and I love and like our mother (father is long dead), and accept that while she wasn't perfect, did her best and was also a good parent much of the time.

And BTW, the toxic shock sis has prickly relationships with her own children. She complains about them not measuring up. She of course has ongoing issues with of course the ILs, various neighbors, the public school system in her town, a former and present boss and the woman who delivers her mail.

+1. I'm not referring to the truly abusive parents, but this vague "toxicity" that is usually nothing more of a personality clash. I've seen this in my own family.

I think it’s a personality and gender thing. My grandfather (a long-time widow) loved my dad more - because when he visited, they’d sit down and talk for hours and bond, my dad would also drive my grandfather to his appointments and they’d bond over that too. When my aunt visited, she’d cook, clean, do his laundry - she had no time to sit and talk, she had to run to her own family and do domestic labor there (that’s besides a full-time job). As a result, my dad was clearly a preferred adult child, and my aunt was pretty upset about it and could never figure it out.

I don’t blame your aunt. She had two households to take care of plus a job while your father sat around and chatted. He could have helped with the chores.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:All of my friends these days believe their mothers are “narcissists.” I nod along but it’s absolutely silly.

+1

Curious, what started this trend? A particular book or article? My sister is like this about our mother and I was really surprised when I heard her make these claims...

One of my sisters and her DH read a book called "Toxic Parents" about 20 years ago which confirmed in their minds that they were raised by horrible people. I can't really address BIL's upbringing, but my older sister and I have listened to the rants of our other sister and wonder if we were raised in the same house. Her list of grievances is LONG. Older sister and I love and like our mother (father is long dead), and accept that while she wasn't perfect, did her best and was also a good parent much of the time.

And BTW, the toxic shock sis has prickly relationships with her own children. She complains about them not measuring up. She of course has ongoing issues with of course the ILs, various neighbors, the public school system in her town, a former and present boss and the woman who delivers her mail.

+1. I'm not referring to the truly abusive parents, but this vague "toxicity" that is usually nothing more of a personality clash. I've seen this in my own family.

Toxic means abusive...usually referring to emotional abuse

I am the scapegoat of my family and don't talk to them anymore. But if you'd ask my siblings, they would say we were a perfect family growing up and that nothing was even close to toxic. That's their point of view, and as the golden children I'm sure they had a great time getting the love and support that they needed, while seeing what happens to the scapegoat and staying in line so they will never be the scapegoat. My treatment didn't negatively impact them and if they paid attention I'm sure it was hard to see, so they likely blocked it or changed the narrative in their head. This is part of what makes all of this so hard.

The problem with the scapegoat vs golden child dynamic is that children on both sides are adversely affected even though it may seem that the golden child lives a charmed life. In my family, I was the scapegoat and my older brother was originally the golden child. Once my sister came along and he no longer lived up to my mother’s expectations, my sister was the new golden child. Pictures of my brother were removed from the walls and now there’s a shrine to my sister and her children. This has stunted both of my siblings. They can’t hold down jobs, maintain relationships, my sister clashes with everyone and they’re incapable of being independent. Based on my experience, I’m glad I was the scapegoat.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:All of my friends these days believe their mothers are “narcissists.” I nod along but it’s absolutely silly.

+1

Curious, what started this trend? A particular book or article? My sister is like this about our mother and I was really surprised when I heard her make these claims...

One of my sisters and her DH read a book called "Toxic Parents" about 20 years ago which confirmed in their minds that they were raised by horrible people. I can't really address BIL's upbringing, but my older sister and I have listened to the rants of our other sister and wonder if we were raised in the same house. Her list of grievances is LONG. Older sister and I love and like our mother (father is long dead), and accept that while she wasn't perfect, did her best and was also a good parent much of the time.

And BTW, the toxic shock sis has prickly relationships with her own children. She complains about them not measuring up. She of course has ongoing issues with of course the ILs, various neighbors, the public school system in her town, a former and present boss and the woman who delivers her mail.

+1. I'm not referring to the truly abusive parents, but this vague "toxicity" that is usually nothing more of a personality clash. I've seen this in my own family.

I think it’s a personality and gender thing. My grandfather (a long-time widow) loved my dad more - because when he visited, they’d sit down and talk for hours and bond, my dad would also drive my grandfather to his appointments and they’d bond over that too. When my aunt visited, she’d cook, clean, do his laundry - she had no time to sit and talk, she had to run to her own family and do domestic labor there (that’s besides a full-time job). As a result, my dad was clearly a preferred adult child, and my aunt was pretty upset about it and could never figure it out.

Oh, so your grandfather treated your dad as a person and equal, and treated your aunt like a maid, and somehow it’s your aunt’s fault that she wasn’t the preferred child?

My dad does this to me, with my brothers and my husband. He talks to them, asks them questions, and ignores me. He expects me to silently busy myself with cooking or cleaning while “the men” enjoy each other’s company.

And now he wonders why we don’t visit more often, and has even speculated to others that it’s because my husband doesn’t like him (my husband dislikes how my father treats me, but has no specific issue with him separate from that — I am the reason we don’t visit). My dad can’t even fathom that I’m enough of a person to care about being ignored and treated like household help.

It’s not a “personality” thing. It’s deeply held misogyny and reflects abusuve parenting patterns. Your aunt should let you grandfather fester in his filth. Your dad, the preferred child, can clean it up.

I never said it was fair to my aunt, quite the opposite.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:All of my friends these days believe their mothers are “narcissists.” I nod along but it’s absolutely silly.

+1

Curious, what started this trend? A particular book or article? My sister is like this about our mother and I was really surprised when I heard her make these claims...

One of my sisters and her DH read a book called "Toxic Parents" about 20 years ago which confirmed in their minds that they were raised by horrible people. I can't really address BIL's upbringing, but my older sister and I have listened to the rants of our other sister and wonder if we were raised in the same house. Her list of grievances is LONG. Older sister and I love and like our mother (father is long dead), and accept that while she wasn't perfect, did her best and was also a good parent much of the time.

And BTW, the toxic shock sis has prickly relationships with her own children. She complains about them not measuring up. She of course has ongoing issues with of course the ILs, various neighbors, the public school system in her town, a former and present boss and the woman who delivers her mail.

+1. I'm not referring to the truly abusive parents, but this vague "toxicity" that is usually nothing more of a personality clash. I've seen this in my own family.

I think it’s a personality and gender thing. My grandfather (a long-time widow) loved my dad more - because when he visited, they’d sit down and talk for hours and bond, my dad would also drive my grandfather to his appointments and they’d bond over that too. When my aunt visited, she’d cook, clean, do his laundry - she had no time to sit and talk, she had to run to her own family and do domestic labor there (that’s besides a full-time job). As a result, my dad was clearly a preferred adult child, and my aunt was pretty upset about it and could never figure it out.

I don’t blame your aunt. She had two households to take care of plus a job while your father sat around and chatted. He could have helped with the chores.

I don't blame her either, although it may seem so from my writing. I do feel bad for her, actually. To be fair, they did not visit at the same time so it's not like she was cooking and serving while they ate and talked. My dad drove his father to the appointments and fixed things around the house, so he helped. Still he was able to provide more companionship, while my aunt just did not have the bandwidth for that - cooking and cleaning is not conducive to talking.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:All of my friends these days believe their mothers are “narcissists.” I nod along but it’s absolutely silly.

+1

Curious, what started this trend? A particular book or article? My sister is like this about our mother and I was really surprised when I heard her make these claims...

One of my sisters and her DH read a book called "Toxic Parents" about 20 years ago which confirmed in their minds that they were raised by horrible people. I can't really address BIL's upbringing, but my older sister and I have listened to the rants of our other sister and wonder if we were raised in the same house. Her list of grievances is LONG. Older sister and I love and like our mother (father is long dead), and accept that while she wasn't perfect, did her best and was also a good parent much of the time.

And BTW, the toxic shock sis has prickly relationships with her own children. She complains about them not measuring up. She of course has ongoing issues with of course the ILs, various neighbors, the public school system in her town, a former and present boss and the woman who delivers her mail.

+1. I'm not referring to the truly abusive parents, but this vague "toxicity" that is usually nothing more of a personality clash. I've seen this in my own family.

Toxic means abusive...usually referring to emotional abuse

I am the scapegoat of my family and don't talk to them anymore. But if you'd ask my siblings, they would say we were a perfect family growing up and that nothing was even close to toxic. That's their point of view, and as the golden children I'm sure they had a great time getting the love and support that they needed, while seeing what happens to the scapegoat and staying in line so they will never be the scapegoat. My treatment didn't negatively impact them and if they paid attention I'm sure it was hard to see, so they likely blocked it or changed the narrative in their head. This is part of what makes all of this so hard.

Yeah some people don't want to refer to being abused as they don't think it's that bad but they can still see that the relationship is toxic and that generally means slightly more than a personality clash. I'm sure my sister would say it's a personality clash between myself and my parents, she would say I am making it all up but then when she goes to my parents house, she is happy seeing all her photo's up, her kids photo's up so she feels included. I'm sure she is happy with the holidays my parents have taken her whole family on, the money they have given her to buy a new car and all the freebies they buy her. I don't get any of that. In fact my parents are so nice to her and wouldn't dare put her down. I don't think she would like to be treated how I am but she can't see it and doesn't acknowledge it because she doesn't want the goodies to end. Its amazing how people can minimise a personality clash so they don't need to acknowledge the truth. I'm sure she doesn't remember her and my mother going to my father and saying how I ugly I was in front of me. That was the start of a dynamic between the two of them that has lasted a lifetime. It's amazing what siblings will forget, their experience is often not the same.

I'm sure none of them would really explain to anyone why I don't visit and have a distant relationship with them it would all seem so silly but only to the person not getting treated that way. That's what people mean by toxic, it's the tapestry within the relationship and family.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:All of my friends these days believe their mothers are “narcissists.” I nod along but it’s absolutely silly.

+1

Curious, what started this trend? A particular book or article? My sister is like this about our mother and I was really surprised when I heard her make these claims...

One of my sisters and her DH read a book called "Toxic Parents" about 20 years ago which confirmed in their minds that they were raised by horrible people. I can't really address BIL's upbringing, but my older sister and I have listened to the rants of our other sister and wonder if we were raised in the same house. Her list of grievances is LONG. Older sister and I love and like our mother (father is long dead), and accept that while she wasn't perfect, did her best and was also a good parent much of the time.

And BTW, the toxic shock sis has prickly relationships with her own children. She complains about them not measuring up. She of course has ongoing issues with of course the ILs, various neighbors, the public school system in her town, a former and present boss and the woman who delivers her mail.

+1. I'm not referring to the truly abusive parents, but this vague "toxicity" that is usually nothing more of a personality clash. I've seen this in my own family.

Toxic means abusive...usually referring to emotional abuse

I am the scapegoat of my family and don't talk to them anymore. But if you'd ask my siblings, they would say we were a perfect family growing up and that nothing was even close to toxic. That's their point of view, and as the golden children I'm sure they had a great time getting the love and support that they needed, while seeing what happens to the scapegoat and staying in line so they will never be the scapegoat. My treatment didn't negatively impact them and if they paid attention I'm sure it was hard to see, so they likely blocked it or changed the narrative in their head. This is part of what makes all of this so hard.

The problem with the scapegoat vs golden child dynamic is that children on both sides are adversely affected even though it may seem that the golden child lives a charmed life. In my family, I was the scapegoat and my older brother was originally the golden child. Once my sister came along and he no longer lived up to my mother’s expectations, my sister was the new golden child. Pictures of my brother were removed from the walls and now there’s a shrine to my sister and her children. This has stunted both of my siblings. They can’t hold down jobs, maintain relationships, my sister clashes with everyone and they’re incapable of being independent. Based on my experience, I’m glad I was the scapegoat.

I'm the PP...and I totally understand your experience. "Unfortunately" the golden children in my FOO haven't had to come to terms with the impacts from all of this because my parents prop them up. They've started businesses for my siblings so the don't have to work for others, bought them houses/car so they don't have to struggle, mostly hang out with each other so no pressure to make friends and rally together every time one of them clashes with anyone outside of the group. I realize this dynamic can't go on forever, but for now it keeps them sheltered. Of course I probably don't need to point it out...but I didn't get an ounce of this "support". And they celebrate every one of these "accomplishments" while I've done some incredible things on my own that they couldn't even care about.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:But if a person doesn't like or respect their parents, isn't that the parents' fault? I'm always reading on here about how children need to be taught to be respectful and grateful, and that parents who don't instill these value in their kids are falling down on the job. So it stands to reason that if you come across an adult who doesn't respect her parents, it must be because her parents failed at parenting, in which case... doesn't she have a reason to dislike and disrespect her parents?

Sorry being a bad parent has consequences, I guess? That's life.

Not always. See example above.

Sometimes with narcissists, one sibling is the golden child, and another is the scapegoat. The golden child grows up being supported, praised, loved, encouraged, so they have a completely different child/parent relationship. The scapegoat is told they are inadequate, sometimes even neglected. There are many, many posts here with people hurt by the discrepancy, which then extends to grandkids.

Of course this can happen. That doesn't mean all rocky parent-child relationships are a result of bad parenting.

DP but while I wouldn't chalk it up to "bad parenting", I do think the parents bear responsibility for all rocky parent-child relationships. Not sole responsibility -- once the children are adults, they can play a role as well. But there's just no such thing as a blameless parent whose children inexplicably hate or resent her. First, there are no blameless parents -- all parents muck it up somewhere. But also, parents have so much authority over their kids for so long. If, after 18 years, your kid is susceptible to being convinced that you are the source of all their problems, then you made some serious errors somewhere. No child of a loving, supportive, non-abusive family suddenly decides they are going to reject it. That's the thing all humans everyone crave (safety, acceptance) and we are hardwired to seek it out.

Not trying to make anyone feel guilty here, I just think people should be realistic. If you're relationship with your adult child is very challenged, you should spend some time looking inward rather than simply blaming others. The fact that so many people in this thread are instinctively blaming their children/siblings for being completely unreasonable, with very little acknowledgment of where it's coming from, is itself evidence of some dysfunctional dynamics.

I think the bolded is the answer. I have never met a peer (I’m in my 30s) who has cut off loving and supportive parents. I know two people of my parents generation who are estranged from their children. Without exception they claim it is for “no reason”. Also without exception, there is a reason that they are fully aware of, that they just don’t agree their actions should have had consequences for them. The first had a DNA test done on her grandchild behind the parents back because she thought her DIL was cheating— has never seen her grandchild or son again, but claims she doesn’t understand why the DIL wasn’t grateful to have “proof” the child was her husbands. The second provided massive financial support to the child who “needed it” (because he never got a job, held a job, or finished college before getting his gf pregnant) to the tune of hundreds of thousands of dollars, and never a penny or an afternoon of babysitting to the older son who did everything right (college, job, etc.) but complains bitterly that the son who did everything right doesn’t make time for her. “I don’t like the reason” is not the same as “there is no reason”

[Anonymous]

Duh. They kick them out when they turn 18.

[Anonymous]

My parents have:
- abused me emotionally and physically
- threatened public figures with death
- called me a communist for not agreeing that all Muslims and illegal aliens should be shot (I'm a conservative Democrat fwiw)
- screamed at me when I got engaged
- threatened to cancel my wedding because my husband's job offer fell through
- told me that antidepressants were terrible and for the weak and convinced me to go off them in college, almost leading to a suicide attempt, and then brought up the antidepressants as a possible cause every single time I had a health problem
- told me not to get attached next time after I cried in front of them over my miscarriages (and yes the antidepressants were brought up as a possible cause of my infertility)
- screamed at me for hours when they heard a rumor I went out with a black guy in high school


I think that's ample justification for cutting someone off.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:and cut them off. And many people say that’s ok.

What happens when you don’t like who your children turned out to be?

I fully get this. Especially now. It’s a result of the everyone gets a trophy mentality. As much as I tried to instill good values in my kids, the schools undid it. I love my kids but they have no clue what it means to fail and therefore have not grown much emotionally. I assume that will change when life kicks them in the a$$ in their later 20s.