Why is it that the higher up you go in the social ladder, the more enforced gender norms are?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not jealous. I never understand this reaction. We’re not jealous, we think you are subservient to the male patriarchy and holding women back from upwards mobility and independence.

Oh, and I’m not fat either. Even if I was, it’s funny you think I’m angry and fat in order to not really admire at all women whom uphold traditional gender stereotypes.

I’m not letting it go. You represent second class citizens happy to be subservient to men’s ambitions and dreams. You’re asolutely pathetic as role models to young women.

Girl, that was an angry post, whether you want to admit it or not. You need to learn to respect other women's choices.

I don’t respect most women who choose to SAH. Many WAHM don’t. We don’t talk about it openly. We pretend, but it’s there. It’s the divide amongst women. Those of us driving gender equality in the workplace don’t for a minute understand your choice. You, SAH, you think we’d all choose your path in life if only we landed a rich husband.

You, who decimated the ambition of your youth to kowtow to a man’s ambition. No, you don’t deserve my respect as someone championing forward better choices for women. You exude privledge living a social lobotomy of your former self.

Wow. So much to say. But I’ll jusk ask this: does this mean you will be supportive of the women who are coming back to work after SAH?

[Anonymous]

I am actually going to say that there is a bit of a reporting bias here. In my experience, a lot of lower class women will report themselves as “still in the workforce “ when they are working 10-15 hours/wk, while most UMC women will report that they have stepped significantly back or even consider themselves SAHMs working similar hours. Having friends and acquaintances in all social classes, I have not noticed a big difference in expectations at home or raising children. In fact, with LC Hispanic women, I would say that gender roles are VERY much enforced.

[Anonymous]

So because I chose to stay at home and take care of my husband and kids, YOU DON'T RESPECT ME? UNBELIEVABLE!

BTW plenty of working class men work very hard & are willing & able to take care of their families (and respect their stay at home wives.)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:So because I chose to stay at home and take care of my husband and kids, YOU DON'T RESPECT ME? UNBELIEVABLE!

BTW plenty of working class men work very hard & are willing & able to take care of their families (and respect their stay at home wives.)

SAHM here, but is this really that unbelievable? Do you feel like you get the same level of respect?

It’s all fine with me. A lot of people are good SAHMs, and it really isn’t that difficult. So it doesn’t come with a ton of respect. But I was a child psychiatrist in a previous life, and it is pretty obvious that if you are a person without mental illness or sadistic tendencies, and being at home doesn’t plunge you into abject poverty, then it is best for children to have a parent at home taking care of them. So I take the hit on the respect I get from strangers.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not jealous. I never understand this reaction. We’re not jealous, we think you are subservient to the male patriarchy and holding women back from upwards mobility and independence.

Oh, and I’m not fat either. Even if I was, it’s funny you think I’m angry and fat in order to not really admire at all women whom uphold traditional gender stereotypes.

I’m not letting it go. You represent second class citizens happy to be subservient to men’s ambitions and dreams. You’re asolutely pathetic as role models to young women.

Girl, that was an angry post, whether you want to admit it or not. You need to learn to respect other women's choices.

I don’t respect most women who choose to SAH. Many WAHM don’t. We don’t talk about it openly. We pretend, but it’s there. It’s the divide amongst women. Those of us driving gender equality in the workplace don’t for a minute understand your choice. You, SAH, you think we’d all choose your path in life if only we landed a rich husband.

You, who decimated the ambition of your youth to kowtow to a man’s ambition. No, you don’t deserve my respect as someone championing forward better choices for women. You exude privledge living a social lobotomy of your former self.

Her body, her choice....unless her choice is different than mine

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:So because I chose to stay at home and take care of my husband and kids, YOU DON'T RESPECT ME? UNBELIEVABLE!

BTW plenty of working class men work very hard & are willing & able to take care of their families (and respect their stay at home wives.)

Nope, just don’t respect you in 2018 choosing not to be independent. You are dependent on a man for his money. You accepted to take a second chair in the relationship. Why is that unbelievable?

I could throw you a bone and state I’m sure you’re a great Mom. But, you could suck at Mom too. Don’t know you.

Let’s not kid ourselves. Ultimate respect is independence. You are a dependent and likely treated as a child in any really big decisions. You chose this path.

This choice appears across economic strata. Some women choose to have less power and independence. Lots of women work very hard, are willing and able to raise families as a single Mom. You’d probably judge her inferior for not finding some man to finance her life.

You are a kept woman when you don’t make you’re own money. And you most definitely kowtow to the money supply.

[Anonymous]

I don’t quit my job and career to SAHM it because gu as who would never appreciate nor respect me?: my husband.

Yes he’d be relieved and further check out of anything about the house or kids or family schedule. He would just take everything for granted more than he already does. I thank his mother AND father for this. And I will never do it because of him. Maybe a different man or husband or father of my children but not this self-centered one. No way. It would be the nail in the coffin of our marriage.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So because I chose to stay at home and take care of my husband and kids, YOU DON'T RESPECT ME? UNBELIEVABLE!

BTW plenty of working class men work very hard & are willing & able to take care of their families (and respect their stay at home wives.)

SAHM here, but is this really that unbelievable? Do you feel like you get the same level of respect?

It’s all fine with me. A lot of people are good SAHMs, and it really isn’t that difficult. So it doesn’t come with a ton of respect. But I was a child psychiatrist in a previous life, and it is pretty obvious that if you are a person without mental illness or sadistic tendencies, and being at home doesn’t plunge you into abject poverty, then it is best for children to have a parent at home taking care of them. So I take the hit on the respect I get from strangers.

My child psychologist father I think felt this way as well and I had an amazing SAHM. I had an idealic childhood, but where does the cycle end, you know? I think my mother does have regrets about giving up career, probably her only regret in life with successful and happy kids and a great marriage. It worked out well for them, but they were lucky. And my SAHM is so, SO proud of our professional accomplishments. She probably feels like she gets to live vicariously through us and the development of our careers since it was something she never had. To make her proud and her sacrifices 'worth it" I will always, always work.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So because I chose to stay at home and take care of my husband and kids, YOU DON'T RESPECT ME? UNBELIEVABLE!

BTW plenty of working class men work very hard & are willing & able to take care of their families (and respect their stay at home wives.)

SAHM here, but is this really that unbelievable? Do you feel like you get the same level of respect?

It’s all fine with me. A lot of people are good SAHMs, and it really isn’t that difficult. So it doesn’t come with a ton of respect. But I was a child psychiatrist in a previous life, and it is pretty obvious that if you are a person without mental illness or sadistic tendencies, and being at home doesn’t plunge you into abject poverty, then it is best for children to have a parent at home taking care of them. So I take the hit on the respect I get from strangers.

My child psychologist father I think felt this way as well and I had an amazing SAHM. I had an idealic childhood, but where does the cycle end, you know? I think my mother does have regrets about giving up career, probably her only regret in life with successful and happy kids and a great marriage. It worked out well for them, but they were lucky. And my SAHM is so, SO proud of our professional accomplishments. She probably feels like she gets to live vicariously through us and the development of our careers since it was something she never had. To make her proud and her sacrifices 'worth it" I will always, always work.

I guess it ends when your kids grow up. I am all for women staying at home as long as it makes them happy. But I don't understand why your mother didn't go back to work after you all were out of the house if it was such a huge regret.
I know a lot of women in my profession who took 15-20 years working very PT following medical school/residency, raised their children, then came back in their late forties and plan to work until they die. I also know a few who didn't adjust to returning to work well, but in my professional opinion, those ladies were cuckoo to begin with.
Is your dad still working?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have noticed this too actually.

In my UMC/UC neighborhood and social circle, the more money the husband makes, the more likely it is to hat the wife doesn’t go back to work after baby #2.

And these are women with elite degrees and professional jobs (lots of lawyers quit).

This post isn't about whether or not women go back to work. It is about "traditional" gender norms and how "feminine" the woman in question is lol. OP is obviously a mid 20's woman who has a lot of growing up to do.

A marriage where the husband brings home the bacon and the wife fries it up is pretty traditional, no?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't know if this is about class and gender roles or more so that "merger" couples (i.e. met at the law firm, med school, or when both were already somewhat accomplished professionally) have trouble sustaining two "big" jobs when they have kids. I've read interesting data that more high earning individuals are marrying other high earning individuals (versus when people got married earlier) and in those circumstances, sometimes one has to scale back or step out when they have kids. Because of, ya know, biology, sometimes its the mom b/c multiple maternity leaves was going to stall her career anyway.

I think if the phenomenon the OP is noticing were a devotion to traditional gender roles you would see this division of labor happen earlier, but I don't know many UMC/UC women who left the workforce upon getting engaged or before having children (which my mother and grandmothers did). Instead I think it's the reality that most families can't make two high-intensity jobs work, and people in high-intensity, high-status jobs marry other people with big jobs.

I agree.

Here is how the dynamic plays out.
Kids start full-time school, kids are in different schools due to age differences, have different sports or music classes after school, the family schedule and logistics explode, one kid starts crying out for attention or having trouble reading or doing math, parents struggle with how to handle this, can't outsource it to tutors or a nanny or au pair, you have more than one kid so Mom can't help both at the same time while spouse is at office until 7pm most days. Mom quits to run the household and help the kids. Husband keeps digging in at the office, or hospital, or law firm, etc. Hopefully he appreciates his SAHW who does everything to keep the family from derailing.

Having only 1 kid would be manageable, but after 2, not so much.

I agree. This happened to our family. However, I will admit that it makes me very uncomfortable as I realize it is a super traditional arrangement and I consider myself a feminist. Those two things are hard, if not impossible, to reconcile. And because I have so much free time during the day, I spend more time working out and on my appearance than I was when I was working full time and had less time.

Isn't this exactly what the OP is talking about?

[Anonymous]

My husband really dislikes his job and is looking forward too early retirement. I think that I have at my job is what makes this an option for us. All of these conversations about what's best for mom and was best for the children neglect the fact that not every man is going to be fulfilled working from his mid-20s until whenever he retires. If you really care about the whole family, then you'll think about what is best for everyone, including your husband

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I do see this phenomenon. At our local public school there are nearly as many dads at dropoff and pickup as moms, there are lots of dads on the PTA, lots of dads coaching sports and running carpool. At our local private there are no dads evident anywhere except evening events like the auction. Wealthy families seem more likely, in my experience car, to have a single income-earner -- nearly always the dad.

My experience is that this is because the really high-paying jobs demand pretty much all of your energy and attention. Two professionals can do extremely well, both with low six-figure jobs and shared domestic responsibilities. High six-figure jobs and seven-figure jobs almost always require so much time that it's really hard to have two of them in the same household. Gender norms, salary discrimination, and the biological realities of pregnancy make it much more likely that couples who started out with 2 careers will "choose" to prioritize the man's career. I also wonder if having grown up being told we can "have it all" makes us more attuned to what we'd be missing on the family side of things if we took the demanding jobs.

+1

This: “High six-figure jobs and seven-figure jobs almost always require so much time that it's really hard to have two of them in the same household.”

Agreed, yet it’s usually the women who capitulates. Rare unicorn female with a SAHD in this scenario. Never a SAHD with a Harvard law degree who said, hey spin class is easier and I’d like to gossip all day long. I’m gonna worry about this season’s nail polish color, how to outdo Susie at the next gala as a true frenemy, and annoy the shit out of you at work over silly things like napkin colors.

Of course I’ll have a hobby, as say a horrible artist, which everyone in my cirrus Siren friend circle will applaud as the next x.

Do men have more time? Do they get an extra 8 hours a day I’m not aware of the Eddie Murphy male gender time machine bus to work? More of a Sarah Silverman SNL sketch. Or is it simply true, there are women who cede to male ambition losing their complete identity and independence in the process of preferring to live a 1950’s gender lifestyle.

Send your girls back to home economics. They won’t be reading the Economist. It’s truth. You’re vapid.

The truth is, things haven't changed that much. It's still much more socially acceptable for women to step out of the workforce than for men to do it. So it's easier and more comfortable. That's why you see more women than men doing it, not that men wouldn't be interested if they thought people would still respect them for it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not jealous. I never understand this reaction. We’re not jealous, we think you are subservient to the male patriarchy and holding women back from upwards mobility and independence.

Oh, and I’m not fat either. Even if I was, it’s funny you think I’m angry and fat in order to not really admire at all women whom uphold traditional gender stereotypes.

I’m not letting it go. You represent second class citizens happy to be subservient to men’s ambitions and dreams. You’re asolutely pathetic as role models to young women.

Girl, that was an angry post, whether you want to admit it or not. You need to learn to respect other women's choices.

I don’t respect most women who choose to SAH. Many WAHM don’t. We don’t talk about it openly. We pretend, but it’s there. It’s the divide amongst women. Those of us driving gender equality in the workplace don’t for a minute understand your choice. You, SAH, you think we’d all choose your path in life if only we landed a rich husband.

You, who decimated the ambition of your youth to kowtow to a man’s ambition. No, you don’t deserve my respect as someone championing forward better choices for women. You exude privledge living a social lobotomy of your former self.

You have issues. Therapy. Seek some.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't know if this is about class and gender roles or more so that "merger" couples (i.e. met at the law firm, med school, or when both were already somewhat accomplished professionally) have trouble sustaining two "big" jobs when they have kids. I've read interesting data that more high earning individuals are marrying other high earning individuals (versus when people got married earlier) and in those circumstances, sometimes one has to scale back or step out when they have kids. Because of, ya know, biology, sometimes its the mom b/c multiple maternity leaves was going to stall her career anyway.

I think if the phenomenon the OP is noticing were a devotion to traditional gender roles you would see this division of labor happen earlier, but I don't know many UMC/UC women who left the workforce upon getting engaged or before having children (which my mother and grandmothers did). Instead I think it's the reality that most families can't make two high-intensity jobs work, and people in high-intensity, high-status jobs marry other people with big jobs.

I agree.

Here is how the dynamic plays out.
Kids start full-time school, kids are in different schools due to age differences, have different sports or music classes after school, the family schedule and logistics explode, one kid starts crying out for attention or having trouble reading or doing math, parents struggle with how to handle this, can't outsource it to tutors or a nanny or au pair, you have more than one kid so Mom can't help both at the same time while spouse is at office until 7pm most days. Mom quits to run the household and help the kids. Husband keeps digging in at the office, or hospital, or law firm, etc. Hopefully he appreciates his SAHW who does everything to keep the family from derailing.

Having only 1 kid would be manageable, but after 2, not so much.

I agree. This happened to our family. However, I will admit that it makes me very uncomfortable as I realize it is a super traditional arrangement and I consider myself a feminist. Those two things are hard, if not impossible, to reconcile. And because I have so much free time during the day, I spend more time working out and on my appearance than I was when I was working full time and had less time.

Isn't this exactly what the OP is talking about?

Seems to me that men still don't understand how to RAISE a child nor RUN a household. Until they realize that, it's all downhill.

Raising a child is not horse-play for 30 minutes at 7pm.

Running a household is not merely putting the garbage cans out once a week when reminded.

This will take 1 or 2 more generations to eradicated the cluelessness. Meanwhile, if YOU are raising YOUR SONS to expect mommy or nanny or whatever female is in the house to do everything, YOU are a major part of the problem. Think about it, how many of your Mom or Dad friends hope their sonny boy will "marry a nice, kind lady who takes care of him, the kids and the house." No 50/50 partnership there.