Why is it that the higher up you go in the social ladder, the more enforced gender norms are?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I am actually going to say that there is a bit of a reporting bias here. In my experience, a lot of lower class women will report themselves as “still in the workforce “ when they are working 10-15 hours/wk, while most UMC women will report that they have stepped significantly back or even consider themselves SAHMs working similar hours. Having friends and acquaintances in all social classes, I have not noticed a big difference in expectations at home or raising children. In fact, with LC Hispanic women, I would say that gender roles are VERY much enforced.

I don't think that OP (and many others) actually know very many LC/LMC/WC families. Gender norms are very much enforced, IME, among people further down the ladder, in terms of clothing, appearance, behavioral expectations, and relationship dynamics. They don't look the same as the gender norms for UMC/UC people, but that's just a class difference in how those roles are expressed.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So because I chose to stay at home and take care of my husband and kids, YOU DON'T RESPECT ME? UNBELIEVABLE!

BTW plenty of working class men work very hard & are willing & able to take care of their families (and respect their stay at home wives.)

Nope, just don’t respect you in 2018 choosing not to be independent. You are dependent on a man for his money. You accepted to take a second chair in the relationship. Why is that unbelievable?

I could throw you a bone and state I’m sure you’re a great Mom. But, you could suck at Mom too. Don’t know you.

Let’s not kid ourselves. Ultimate respect is independence. You are a dependent and likely treated as a child in any really big decisions. You chose this path.

I'd love to know more about your background because your posts are unbelievably filled with anger and demeaning comments--that's not normal for a well-adjusted woman.

This choice appears across economic strata. Some women choose to have less power and independence. Lots of women work very hard, are willing and able to raise families as a single Mom. You’d probably judge her inferior for not finding some man to finance her life.

You are a kept woman when you don’t make you’re own money. And you most definitely kowtow to the money supply.

[Anonymous]

I grew up lower middle class, most of my family still is. The “manly man” is very much something my male relatives strive for. Being buff, not showing emotion, lifting, trucks, football, meat...

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not jealous. I never understand this reaction. We’re not jealous, we think you are subservient to the male patriarchy and holding women back from upwards mobility and independence.

Oh, and I’m not fat either. Even if I was, it’s funny you think I’m angry and fat in order to not really admire at all women whom uphold traditional gender stereotypes.

I’m not letting it go. You represent second class citizens happy to be subservient to men’s ambitions and dreams. You’re asolutely pathetic as role models to young women.

Girl, that was an angry post, whether you want to admit it or not. You need to learn to respect other women's choices.

I don’t respect most women who choose to SAH. Many WAHM don’t. We don’t talk about it openly. We pretend, but it’s there. It’s the divide amongst women. Those of us driving gender equality in the workplace don’t for a minute understand your choice. You, SAH, you think we’d all choose your path in life if only we landed a rich husband.

You, who decimated the ambition of your youth to kowtow to a man’s ambition. No, you don’t deserve my respect as someone championing forward better choices for women. You exude privledge living a social lobotomy of your former self.

I'd love to know more about your background because your posts are unbelievably filled with anger and demeaning comments--that's not normal for a well-adjusted woman.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So because I chose to stay at home and take care of my husband and kids, YOU DON'T RESPECT ME? UNBELIEVABLE!

BTW plenty of working class men work very hard & are willing & able to take care of their families (and respect their stay at home wives.)

Nope, just don’t respect you in 2018 choosing not to be independent. You are dependent on a man for his money. You accepted to take a second chair in the relationship. Why is that unbelievable?

I could throw you a bone and state I’m sure you’re a great Mom. But, you could suck at Mom too. Don’t know you.

Let’s not kid ourselves. Ultimate respect is independence. You are a dependent and likely treated as a child in any really big decisions. You chose this path.

This choice appears across economic strata. Some women choose to have less power and independence. Lots of women work very hard, are willing and able to raise families as a single Mom. You’d probably judge her inferior for not finding some man to finance her life.

You are a kept woman when you don’t make you’re own money. And you most definitely kowtow to the money supply.

It must burn you up when this isn't true.

You know all relationships aren't the same, right? There often is a power differential but it doesn't always have to do with money. Sometimes, yes, money does tilt the balance of power towards the person who makes more. But just as often the catalyst is affection or sex or appearance or personality or mental illness, etc. You never know what goes on behind closed doors. Very often the person who loves more has less power.

In other words, you're ASSuming something that isn't always true.

[Anonymous]

OP, you sound like an angry fat white male who is hiding in your basement getting your licks out of defaming people.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP, you sound like an angry fat white male who is hiding in your basement getting your licks out of defaming people.

OP is some sort of women’s studies major, not a man. An angry man would write something less dispassionate.

[Anonymous]

I don't have kids and wouldn't gladly be a SAHW if I could. Many of my friends are SAHM/W and from my perspective their home lives seem more peaceful and their marriages happier than those of my friends with dual incomes and children.

[Anonymous]

*WOULD gladly SAHW...

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So because I chose to stay at home and take care of my husband and kids, YOU DON'T RESPECT ME? UNBELIEVABLE!

BTW plenty of working class men work very hard & are willing & able to take care of their families (and respect their stay at home wives.)

SAHM here, but is this really that unbelievable? Do you feel like you get the same level of respect?

It’s all fine with me. A lot of people are good SAHMs, and it really isn’t that difficult. So it doesn’t come with a ton of respect. But I was a child psychiatrist in a previous life, and it is pretty obvious that if you are a person without mental illness or sadistic tendencies, and being at home doesn’t plunge you into abject poverty, then it is best for children to have a parent at home taking care of them. So I take the hit on the respect I get from strangers.

My child psychologist father I think felt this way as well and I had an amazing SAHM. I had an idealic childhood, but where does the cycle end, you know? I think my mother does have regrets about giving up career, probably her only regret in life with successful and happy kids and a great marriage. It worked out well for them, but they were lucky. And my SAHM is so, SO proud of our professional accomplishments. She probably feels like she gets to live vicariously through us and the development of our careers since it was something she never had. To make her proud and her sacrifices 'worth it" I will always, always work.

I guess it ends when your kids grow up. I am all for women staying at home as long as it makes them happy. But I don't understand why your mother didn't go back to work after you all were out of the house if it was such a huge regret.
I know a lot of women in my profession who took 15-20 years working very PT following medical school/residency, raised their children, then came back in their late forties and plan to work until they die. I also know a few who didn't adjust to returning to work well, but in my professional opinion, those ladies were cuckoo to begin with.
Is your dad still working?

NP
Re-entering your professional career after 20 years of leave, you will most probably have to start training all over again at the very bottom.
Curious- which specialities are your MD friends in?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So because I chose to stay at home and take care of my husband and kids, YOU DON'T RESPECT ME? UNBELIEVABLE!

BTW plenty of working class men work very hard & are willing & able to take care of their families (and respect their stay at home wives.)

SAHM here, but is this really that unbelievable? Do you feel like you get the same level of respect?

It’s all fine with me. A lot of people are good SAHMs, and it really isn’t that difficult. So it doesn’t come with a ton of respect. But I was a child psychiatrist in a previous life, and it is pretty obvious that if you are a person without mental illness or sadistic tendencies, and being at home doesn’t plunge you into abject poverty, then it is best for children to have a parent at home taking care of them. So I take the hit on the respect I get from strangers.

My child psychologist father I think felt this way as well and I had an amazing SAHM. I had an idealic childhood, but where does the cycle end, you know? I think my mother does have regrets about giving up career, probably her only regret in life with successful and happy kids and a great marriage. It worked out well for them, but they were lucky. And my SAHM is so, SO proud of our professional accomplishments. She probably feels like she gets to live vicariously through us and the development of our careers since it was something she never had. To make her proud and her sacrifices 'worth it" I will always, always work.

I guess it ends when your kids grow up. I am all for women staying at home as long as it makes them happy. But I don't understand why your mother didn't go back to work after you all were out of the house if it was such a huge regret.
I know a lot of women in my profession who took 15-20 years working very PT following medical school/residency, raised their children, then came back in their late forties and plan to work until they die. I also know a few who didn't adjust to returning to work well, but in my professional opinion, those ladies were cuckoo to begin with.
Is your dad still working?

PP here. She did start working when we were older, but after a significant number of years out of the workforce (re-entering mid-late 40s), options were more limited. She definitely has held multiple jobs, but less of a developed career if that makes sense. I don't even know that this would be such a huge regret per se as I know she enjoyed being home with us, but it also isn't what she raised us to be or do as adults. She is pretty proud of our more "high status" jobs and I don't think would be thrilled to see us drop out of them.

Dad retired last year! Mom is still working in something she enjoys.

[Anonymous]

Man here, big law partner, and two observations for what it's worth.

First, most of my partners are male, most of them married to highly educated women who dropped out of the workforce when the kids came. No one needs the money at this level, and something has to give. Honestly, this is the big advantage men have over women in the upper ranks of professions: we have someone at home that handles everything so we can focus on client development.

Second, it saddens me that society so demeans SAHMs. My wife is my co-equal. But more astonishingly, how so many working women tear down SAHMs, like your only worth in life is feeding into the capitalist machine and earning ever so much more money. Dare I say it, my wife's life surrounded by our children is far more rewarding and in retrospect than the endless commercial litigation between fortune 100s over patent disputes that I deal with.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So because I chose to stay at home and take care of my husband and kids, YOU DON'T RESPECT ME? UNBELIEVABLE!

BTW plenty of working class men work very hard & are willing & able to take care of their families (and respect their stay at home wives.)

SAHM here, but is this really that unbelievable? Do you feel like you get the same level of respect?

It’s all fine with me. A lot of people are good SAHMs, and it really isn’t that difficult. So it doesn’t come with a ton of respect. But I was a child psychiatrist in a previous life, and it is pretty obvious that if you are a person without mental illness or sadistic tendencies, and being at home doesn’t plunge you into abject poverty, then it is best for children to have a parent at home taking care of them. So I take the hit on the respect I get from strangers.

My child psychologist father I think felt this way as well and I had an amazing SAHM. I had an idealic childhood, but where does the cycle end, you know? I think my mother does have regrets about giving up career, probably her only regret in life with successful and happy kids and a great marriage. It worked out well for them, but they were lucky. And my SAHM is so, SO proud of our professional accomplishments. She probably feels like she gets to live vicariously through us and the development of our careers since it was something she never had. To make her proud and her sacrifices 'worth it" I will always, always work.

I guess it ends when your kids grow up. I am all for women staying at home as long as it makes them happy. But I don't understand why your mother didn't go back to work after you all were out of the house if it was such a huge regret.
I know a lot of women in my profession who took 15-20 years working very PT following medical school/residency, raised their children, then came back in their late forties and plan to work until they die. I also know a few who didn't adjust to returning to work well, but in my professional opinion, those ladies were cuckoo to begin with.
Is your dad still working?

NP
Re-entering your professional career after 20 years of leave, you will most probably have to start training all over again at the very bottom.
Curious- which specialities are your MD friends in?

Child psychiatry.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So because I chose to stay at home and take care of my husband and kids, YOU DON'T RESPECT ME? UNBELIEVABLE!

BTW plenty of working class men work very hard & are willing & able to take care of their families (and respect their stay at home wives.)

SAHM here, but is this really that unbelievable? Do you feel like you get the same level of respect?

It’s all fine with me. A lot of people are good SAHMs, and it really isn’t that difficult. So it doesn’t come with a ton of respect. But I was a child psychiatrist in a previous life, and it is pretty obvious that if you are a person without mental illness or sadistic tendencies, and being at home doesn’t plunge you into abject poverty, then it is best for children to have a parent at home taking care of them. So I take the hit on the respect I get from strangers.

My child psychologist father I think felt this way as well and I had an amazing SAHM. I had an idealic childhood, but where does the cycle end, you know? I think my mother does have regrets about giving up career, probably her only regret in life with successful and happy kids and a great marriage. It worked out well for them, but they were lucky. And my SAHM is so, SO proud of our professional accomplishments. She probably feels like she gets to live vicariously through us and the development of our careers since it was something she never had. To make her proud and her sacrifices 'worth it" I will always, always work.

I guess it ends when your kids grow up. I am all for women staying at home as long as it makes them happy. But I don't understand why your mother didn't go back to work after you all were out of the house if it was such a huge regret.
I know a lot of women in my profession who took 15-20 years working very PT following medical school/residency, raised their children, then came back in their late forties and plan to work until they die. I also know a few who didn't adjust to returning to work well, but in my professional opinion, those ladies were cuckoo to begin with.
Is your dad still working?

PP here. She did start working when we were older, but after a significant number of years out of the workforce (re-entering mid-late 40s), options were more limited. She definitely has held multiple jobs, but less of a developed career if that makes sense. I don't even know that this would be such a huge regret per se as I know she enjoyed being home with us, but it also isn't what she raised us to be or do as adults. She is pretty proud of our more "high status" jobs and I don't think would be thrilled to see us drop out of them.

Dad retired last year! Mom is still working in something she enjoys.

You can’t live your life to please your mother. Just because she wouldn’t be thrilled to see you leave your high status job doesn’t mean that you can’t do what you think is best for your self and YOUR family.

[Anonymous]

I had my 10 year MBA reunion in the fall at Northwestern Kellogg. Out of my female classmates I would say 1/3 of them aren't working 1/3 of them are working in non MBA type jobs and only 1/3 are actually using their degree. The 1/3 that are using their degree generally are single or don't have kids. Plenty of males aren't using the degree either including myself. I'm just a government consultant.