Why is it that the higher up you go in the social ladder, the more enforced gender norms are?

[Anonymous]

Not jealous. I never understand this reaction. We’re not jealous, we think you are subservient to the male patriarchy and holding women back from upwards mobility and independence.

Oh, and I’m not fat either. Even if I was, it’s funny you think I’m angry and fat in order to not really admire at all women whom uphold traditional gender stereotypes.

I’m not letting it go. You represent second class citizens happy to be subservient to men’s ambitions and dreams. You’re asolutely pathetic as role models to young women.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Yeah, and I suppose you need a penis to prioritize your career. Way to genuflect SAHMs who left the workforce. You made your choice to be second.

The point is that not everyone wants to prioritize their career to the degree that "big" jobs require. I think the so-called requirements are not actually necessary to perform even at the most demanding jobs, but I'm not foolish enough to believe that they don't actually exist for most careers.

I'm the PP who has stepped back some but still has a high-responsibility position earning $250K. That's not such a bad place to be career-wise at the age of 40. I could be further along and earning a lot more (DH is and does despite only 6 mos difference in when we graduated), but I've come to realize that I truly don't envy DH's career (which is amazing). We would be very happy, probably much happier, if DH could figure out how to get himself into a position similar to mine. My situation is a combination of luck and making a couple of difficult career decisions in the past that prioritized things other than salary and career advancement.

I'm not doing it because of an allegiance to gender norms. I see gender norms as making it somewhat easier for a woman to make the choices I've made...but on balance gender norms hurt me more than they've helped me.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I do see this phenomenon. At our local public school there are nearly as many dads at dropoff and pickup as moms, there are lots of dads on the PTA, lots of dads coaching sports and running carpool. At our local private there are no dads evident anywhere except evening events like the auction. Wealthy families seem more likely, in my experience car, to have a single income-earner -- nearly always the dad.

My experience is that this is because the really high-paying jobs demand pretty much all of your energy and attention. Two professionals can do extremely well, both with low six-figure jobs and shared domestic responsibilities. High six-figure jobs and seven-figure jobs almost always require so much time that it's really hard to have two of them in the same household. Gender norms, salary discrimination, and the biological realities of pregnancy make it much more likely that couples who started out with 2 careers will "choose" to prioritize the man's career. I also wonder if having grown up being told we can "have it all" makes us more attuned to what we'd be missing on the family side of things if we took the demanding jobs.

[Anonymous]

Many LMC and LC women are the heads of single parent households and they have to work hard to put food on the table and a roof over their heads. The fathers of these children are doing who knows what but most are not contributing child support.

[Anonymous]

Nope. In my friend/acquaintance circle, most of sahds or primary parent dads are UMC or UC. They're wealthy enough to not need the second income. They're also wealthy enough to not care what people think so they just did whatever worked for them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Not jealous. I never understand this reaction. We’re not jealous, we think you are subservient to the male patriarchy and holding women back from upwards mobility and independence.

Oh, and I’m not fat either. Even if I was, it’s funny you think I’m angry and fat in order to not really admire at all women whom uphold traditional gender stereotypes.

I’m not letting it go. You represent second class citizens happy to be subservient to men’s ambitions and dreams. You’re asolutely pathetic as role models to young women.

Girl, that was an angry post, whether you want to admit it or not. You need to learn to respect other women's choices.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I do see this phenomenon. At our local public school there are nearly as many dads at dropoff and pickup as moms, there are lots of dads on the PTA, lots of dads coaching sports and running carpool. At our local private there are no dads evident anywhere except evening events like the auction. Wealthy families seem more likely, in my experience car, to have a single income-earner -- nearly always the dad.

My experience is that this is because the really high-paying jobs demand pretty much all of your energy and attention. Two professionals can do extremely well, both with low six-figure jobs and shared domestic responsibilities. High six-figure jobs and seven-figure jobs almost always require so much time that it's really hard to have two of them in the same household. Gender norms, salary discrimination, and the biological realities of pregnancy make it much more likely that couples who started out with 2 careers will "choose" to prioritize the man's career. I also wonder if having grown up being told we can "have it all" makes us more attuned to what we'd be missing on the family side of things if we took the demanding jobs.

+1

This: “High six-figure jobs and seven-figure jobs almost always require so much time that it's really hard to have two of them in the same household.”

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I see two different trends.

On the one hand, a lot of UMC families I know have dual high wage incomes and these relationships are not absolutely not gender typical. In one, he does almost all the cooking and both he and she are light on cleaning and laundry as they have an au pair and weekly housekeeping. In another family, she travels a lot, he has a government job and does more kid pick ups/kid sick days, and they eat out a lot. In a third, she works a lot, he works a lot, they have a nanny, they have a food service (which she says saved their marriage) and their house is a wreck, so even though they have weekly housekeeping, I'm not sure either of them is spending time "picking up." She has told me he does a lot more laundry than she does (mostly because she admits with a laugh that he breaks down sooner than she does), but I've seen her do the yard work...

On the other hand, I know an equal number of UMC families with very gender typical division of labor with high paid executive men whose careers have been furthered by SAH wives who are socially graceful and helping their husbands work a million hours a week by doing all the kid/house duties. In one of these families, he makes several million a year and she is a bombshell, has a personal trainer and a personal shopper, their house is gorgeous (they do have a housekeeper, yard service, and a dogwalker) and she does 100% of the kid and home duties. In another family, he is a high powered lobbyist. She is really fun outgoing, goes to manicurist once a week, goes to hairdresser before each "do" (and they seem like they have 2-3 of them a week), she does all the cooking and shopping (they throw a do about once a week), and they have a nanny who does most of the kid duty. She plays a lot of tennis at a fancy country club. In a third family, she is a SAH mom, he travels a lot for some job in international finance, and I would not be surprised if he truly does not even know how to drive a car (he takes a company car to the airport, etc.) or do anything for himself. She maintains their calendar and he has a personal admin who reminds him about all his work stuff. She told me once that he phones his admin with her birthday/anniversary present lists...!

This is all fine, but I don't think these are representative of UMC families and gender dynamics.

I am highly-educated (PhD), grew up UMC, and am currently UMC. Most of my friends are similar, though not all of them grew up UMC. I would say that the vast majority of us are in dual-income households where the woman takes care of the majority of the traditionally female responsibilities (kids, cleaning, etc) and has also made decisions to limit or slow career advancement in order to support those responsibilities. I can't speak to the reasons for everyone I know, but I can speak to my own. There are some idiosyncracies around finding jobs in the same place for DH and I, which resulted in us ending up in a location that was best for DH's career. My observation is that somehow or another, most of my friends up in a similar situation (location based on DH's career). Because of the geographic transition, DH was out-earning me when we had kids. I have had a couple of opportunities for much higher-paying, more demanding jobs, and I ultimately turned them down. My reasoning was that: 1) we could not both have extremely demanding travel and work schedules, 2) I was not confident that DH would step down as much as needed in his career, 3) I wasn't willing to take that risk with small babies, and 4) truth-be-told my career isn't the most important thing to me. It's not for DH either, but he's not shown himself willing to sacrifice any aspect of it. Details for others' are different, but pretty similar. Unlike some of my friends, I think DH is perfectly capable of handling the home front. I'm just not confident that he will; and I value being able to make some of those day-to-day decisions (esp. since one of my kids has delays). Some of my friends don't even think their DH's could handle the homefront...

I'm doing just fine in my career (Director at a company with very few of them, primarily WAH, ~$250K salary)...but I could be doing much better. I've taken on traditionally feminine responsibilities both by choice and by necessity.

How much does your DH earn. Is it a similar amount?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I have noticed this too actually.

In my UMC/UC neighborhood and social circle, the more money the husband makes, the more likely it is to hat the wife doesn’t go back to work after baby #2.

And these are women with elite degrees and professional jobs (lots of lawyers quit).

Female Lawyer here, SAHM now and I didn't go back after my 1st. No regrets.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I do see this phenomenon. At our local public school there are nearly as many dads at dropoff and pickup as moms, there are lots of dads on the PTA, lots of dads coaching sports and running carpool. At our local private there are no dads evident anywhere except evening events like the auction. Wealthy families seem more likely, in my experience car, to have a single income-earner -- nearly always the dad.

My experience is that this is because the really high-paying jobs demand pretty much all of your energy and attention. Two professionals can do extremely well, both with low six-figure jobs and shared domestic responsibilities. High six-figure jobs and seven-figure jobs almost always require so much time that it's really hard to have two of them in the same household. Gender norms, salary discrimination, and the biological realities of pregnancy make it much more likely that couples who started out with 2 careers will "choose" to prioritize the man's career. I also wonder if having grown up being told we can "have it all" makes us more attuned to what we'd be missing on the family side of things if we took the demanding jobs.

+1

This: “High six-figure jobs and seven-figure jobs almost always require so much time that it's really hard to have two of them in the same household.”

Agreed, yet it’s usually the women who capitulates. Rare unicorn female with a SAHD in this scenario. Never a SAHD with a Harvard law degree who said, hey spin class is easier and I’d like to gossip all day long. I’m gonna worry about this season’s nail polish color, how to outdo Susie at the next gala as a true frenemy, and annoy the shit out of you at work over silly things like napkin colors.

Of course I’ll have a hobby, as say a horrible artist, which everyone in my cirrus Siren friend circle will applaud as the next x.

Do men have more time? Do they get an extra 8 hours a day I’m not aware of the Eddie Murphy male gender time machine bus to work? More of a Sarah Silverman SNL sketch. Or is it simply true, there are women who cede to male ambition losing their complete identity and independence in the process of preferring to live a 1950’s gender lifestyle.

Send your girls back to home economics. They won’t be reading the Economist. It’s truth. You’re vapid.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not jealous. I never understand this reaction. We’re not jealous, we think you are subservient to the male patriarchy and holding women back from upwards mobility and independence.

Oh, and I’m not fat either. Even if I was, it’s funny you think I’m angry and fat in order to not really admire at all women whom uphold traditional gender stereotypes.

I’m not letting it go. You represent second class citizens happy to be subservient to men’s ambitions and dreams. You’re asolutely pathetic as role models to young women.

Girl, that was an angry post, whether you want to admit it or not. You need to learn to respect other women's choices.

I don’t respect most women who choose to SAH. Many WAHM don’t. We don’t talk about it openly. We pretend, but it’s there. It’s the divide amongst women. Those of us driving gender equality in the workplace don’t for a minute understand your choice. You, SAH, you think we’d all choose your path in life if only we landed a rich husband.

You, who decimated the ambition of your youth to kowtow to a man’s ambition. No, you don’t deserve my respect as someone championing forward better choices for women. You exude privledge living a social lobotomy of your former self.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Actually some anthropologists have written about this. Wealthier men prefer more feminine women. Men who struggle prefer women who can take care of themselves.

This is what I've observed...especially with wealthy couples.

The wealthiest couples I know look like this:

Busy career focused husband who golfs.

Very feminine fit wife who manages the house and kids---typically with hired help.

Country clubs and luxury trips.

Private school (natch).

The husband's job is to bring home a big paycheck. He expects the wife to manage all other aspects of their life, but he expects her to recognize that he is still in charge. He tends to be chivalrous...at least in public. She dotes on him and makes his life easy.

It's very 1950s. I certainly couldn't tolerate it, but I suppose it's a trade off some women happily make.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
This is all fine, but I don't think these are representative of UMC families and gender dynamics.

I am highly-educated (PhD), grew up UMC, and am currently UMC. Most of my friends are similar, though not all of them grew up UMC. I would say that the vast majority of us are in dual-income households where the woman takes care of the majority of the traditionally female responsibilities (kids, cleaning, etc) and has also made decisions to limit or slow career advancement in order to support those responsibilities. I can't speak to the reasons for everyone I know, but I can speak to my own. There are some idiosyncracies around finding jobs in the same place for DH and I, which resulted in us ending up in a location that was best for DH's career. My observation is that somehow or another, most of my friends up in a similar situation (location based on DH's career). Because of the geographic transition, DH was out-earning me when we had kids. I have had a couple of opportunities for much higher-paying, more demanding jobs, and I ultimately turned them down. My reasoning was that: 1) we could not both have extremely demanding travel and work schedules, 2) I was not confident that DH would step down as much as needed in his career, 3) I wasn't willing to take that risk with small babies, and 4) truth-be-told my career isn't the most important thing to me. It's not for DH either, but he's not shown himself willing to sacrifice any aspect of it. Details for others' are different, but pretty similar. Unlike some of my friends, I think DH is perfectly capable of handling the home front. I'm just not confident that he will; and I value being able to make some of those day-to-day decisions (esp. since one of my kids has delays). Some of my friends don't even think their DH's could handle the homefront...

I'm doing just fine in my career (Director at a company with very few of them, primarily WAH, ~$250K salary)...but I could be doing much better. I've taken on traditionally feminine responsibilities both by choice and by necessity.

How much does your DH earn. Is it a similar amount?

No, it's about 2x what I earn (harder to say, because his bonus percentage is much higher and can exceed his salary). I know I could stop working, but I really don't want to. DH would actively not support that decision, because he thinks I'd go crazy if I weren't working (he's probably right).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not jealous. I never understand this reaction. We’re not jealous, we think you are subservient to the male patriarchy and holding women back from upwards mobility and independence.

Oh, and I’m not fat either. Even if I was, it’s funny you think I’m angry and fat in order to not really admire at all women whom uphold traditional gender stereotypes.

I’m not letting it go. You represent second class citizens happy to be subservient to men’s ambitions and dreams. You’re asolutely pathetic as role models to young women.

Girl, that was an angry post, whether you want to admit it or not. You need to learn to respect other women's choices.

I don’t respect most women who choose to SAH. Many WAHM don’t. We don’t talk about it openly. We pretend, but it’s there. It’s the divide amongst women. Those of us driving gender equality in the workplace don’t for a minute understand your choice. You, SAH, you think we’d all choose your path in life if only we landed a rich husband.

You, who decimated the ambition of your youth to kowtow to a man’s ambition. No, you don’t deserve my respect as someone championing forward better choices for women. You exude privledge living a social lobotomy of your former self.

People who are confident in their life choices don't write like that. You sound very envious of the SAHM.

[Anonymous]

It’s fair to say I’m disappointed in women in my age range and income bracket. I know so many acquaintances who just seemingly quit their dreams to pursue being moms, being on various board, honcho-ing husbands, attending galas.

I harbor collective feminine guilt over who you may have been? What you could have done, apart from being a great Mom, to contribute to society or have had a moment of extreme pleasure in the workforce when you just aced it at work after months of a grueling intellectual pursuit.

A moment where you were photographed, had skipped your Botox appointment, your grey hair of expertise was showing an 1/8 inch but you still managed to have had perfectly manicured nails as you flipped through your life’s work or something less significant. You didn’t care about your hair, your kids in that moment. You knew it was a major achievement individually.

Men get this experience and raise kids. Women often don’t. And there’s plenty of brilliant women out there who’d be great additions to the workplace who deserve this life affirmation of their brilliant selves, apart from being great wives and Moms.