DCUM, please headshrink my MIL issues

[Anonymous]

OP, I'm an NP on this thread and a parent of a teen.

You've gotten some very good advice (as well as some jerkish "advice"). You also sound like a person who's able to do the very difficult job of stepping back from your emotions and being pretty objective if needed--that's great. And best of all, your DH does deal directly with his mom; I'm a fan of each adult handling his or her own parent in situations like this. Good for your DH.

From the perspective of someone who lived with a grandmother in my parents' home the entire time I was growing up (from before my birth until she died when I was 27!) I can see the issues here. And from the perspective of a parent of a much older kid, I want to add this:

You and DH need to think long-term as well as short-term. And long-term comes up quickly with young kids as they grow up so fast.

I agree with PPs who noted while DH needs to talk to her now, don't start getting into thoughts of her moving out until after the next huge step in your lives, your new baby. Your DD's world is going to be rocked by that sibling, and the huge change of having grandma move out would make the transition even harder for DD; however, you and DH do need to prepare for the possibility that grandmother is going to pretty entirely take DD over even more when the baby comes -- "I thought you'd like time alone with baby so I took DD to ride her bike." "I'll get DD to day care and then pick her up and then we'll do so and so...so you can have time with the baby." And so on.

If you object, she will say she was only trying to help you bond with baby by taking care of DD for you It will be very tempting to let her do those kinds of things, and she's admittedly great with DD, but because she undermines your parenting and teaches DD to walk all over her, you also know you can't let her just take over DD as her own when there's also a baby in the household.

I would go ahead right now and plan your maternity leave so that you have firm time alone with BOTH children at once, and plenty of it, and don't wait for MIL to have a work contract to do that for you. Make a schedule -- I know, tough with an infant and a 2.5 year old child -- but go ahead and plan out those early weeks when you are home. DH will get flak and you will possibly get complaints about how "I could be such a help if you'd let me," but your DD needs to start learning, from the start, that she has to deal with her baby sibling in day to day life. Talk to DH about how this can happen. Maybe have MIL around for the first week, then you and DH send her on a trip (not a surprise! Let her help plan it) as a gift "for all you've done and to give us some time as a couple adjusting to the kids." Don't let her Skype or Facetime when she's gone -- it's not for months! -- and do let her do something special with DD when she returns. But after that, you and DH should do as one PP said and set aside plenty of specific times every week, not negotiable with MIL, for the four of you in your nuclear family to be together.

And then you and DH need to think really longer-term. Your DD is approaching three. Is she going to go to preschool? (Despite some day cares saying they're preschools, many actually are not; kids benefit from a good preschool to get them socially ready for kindergarten.) Will grandma babysit your infant at home full-time while DD goes back to day care and/or preschool? Will both kids go to day care? Do you think MIL will be so happy about two kids that she'll give up her work and want to be the full-time caregiver? (Please do not say yes to this.)

And DD will go to kindergarten before you know it. That will be a watershed for MIL who might then focus on the baby the same way she's focused on DD now. Or grandma could try to be overly involved in DD's school experience.

I would make the start of K, or better, the start of preschool, the time frame by which DH, MIL and you agree that she'll move out somewhere nearby and remain a big part of your kids' lives but not in the home.

It is wonderful to have a healthy, active, involved and capable grandparent. I know, I had one! It's also stressful for a marriage and parent-child relationships to have another adult in the household, especially if that adult does not always adhere to the parents' rules and plays the "spoil the grandchild" part. I think your MIL sounds mostly wonderful, but also sounds as if she is mothering your DD rather than "grandmothering" her. The key thing is her living with you and how to set expectations that her living with you is going to end at a specific point in the fairly near future, if that's what you and DH decide is best for your relationship with your kids. If you need to get some counseling to help you decide how to navigate that discussion, get it, together with DH of course.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Start responding bluntly and maybe she'll back off.
--"I'm enjoying some one-on-one time with my child. You don't need to worry about when I get ready for work."
--"It would be better if you don't jump in to defend her. It doesn't help for you to insert your two cents." You can say this politely or matter-of-factly. At some point you might need to explain to her frankly that she is not a third parent, and she should not insert herself between DD and her parents. Use the phrases "it's not appropriate," "it's not helpful," and "it's not good for Larla."
--Repeat her annoying question back to her. Pause. Then give a non-response. "Why was I vacuuming her room? ... [slightly incredulous facial expression] ... Because. It. Needed. It." Then quickly change topic so she doesn't get the information. Start signaling her questions are unwelcome, don't give her the satisfaction of a substantive response when possible, and give her the feeling that she's not entitled to know all these things.
Don't do anything drastic until after the new baby comes and you see what your new life is like. You are a saint to let her live with you. Does DH have any siblings who can let MIL visit for extended periods, to give you and him a break?

YES. Best response so far.

Ugh, please do not do any of this to a family member who your daughter loves that you need to live with for the foreseeable future. Passive aggressive bullshit is not something you need to model.

How is that passive aggressive? It's pretty to-the-point.

Definitely rude and aggressive suggestions. Talk with MIL when you're NOT angry and explain your feelings and ask for her support. Perhaps work out a nonverbal signal for when you're feeling boundary issues. Grandparent bonding with first grandchild IS very intense. Read up on this. Don't ask her to leave.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:She lives with you. Enough said.

I get sick of my mother / MIL if they stay with us for a week+.

You're a real trooper.

It's trouper, as in a performing troupe.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Start responding bluntly and maybe she'll back off.
--"I'm enjoying some one-on-one time with my child. You don't need to worry about when I get ready for work."
--"It would be better if you don't jump in to defend her. It doesn't help for you to insert your two cents." You can say this politely or matter-of-factly. At some point you might need to explain to her frankly that she is not a third parent, and she should not insert herself between DD and her parents. Use the phrases "it's not appropriate," "it's not helpful," and "it's not good for Larla."
--Repeat her annoying question back to her. Pause. Then give a non-response. "Why was I vacuuming her room? ... [slightly incredulous facial expression] ... Because. It. Needed. It." Then quickly change topic so she doesn't get the information. Start signaling her questions are unwelcome, don't give her the satisfaction of a substantive response when possible, and give her the feeling that she's not entitled to know all these things.
Don't do anything drastic until after the new baby comes and you see what your new life is like. You are a saint to let her live with you. Does DH have any siblings who can let MIL visit for extended periods, to give you and him a break?

YES. Best response so far.

Ugh, please do not do any of this to a family member who your daughter loves that you need to live with for the foreseeable future. Passive aggressive bullshit is not something you need to model.

How is that passive aggressive? It's pretty to-the-point.

Definitely rude and aggressive suggestions. Talk with MIL when you're NOT angry and explain your feelings and ask for her support. Perhaps work out a nonverbal signal for when you're feeling boundary issues. Grandparent bonding with first grandchild IS very intense. Read up on this. Don't ask her to leave.

NP. Totally agree. OP cannot control her MIL's behavior; OP can only control her reactions to MIL's behavior. If OP cannot control her behavior to even the most minimum of polite standards then she has a problem and she will be modeling it for her daughter to pick up as appropriate (i.e., that it is okay to be rude and patronizing to Grandma). IMO, OP sounds insecure and her behaviors reflect it. As someone who has a parent living in the house and another set of parents living about a mile away, OP would be much better off learning to ignore MIL behavior that she doesn't like. As soon as OP stops harping on every little thing MIL does I think that the MIL's behavior will become less grating.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Have you attempted any kind of candid heart to heart with your MIL about WHY you think certain boundaries are important? What does "walking all over her" look like? Is your child rude and defiant? Is she acting very spoiled and not listening? Are there problems and behaviors you want to work to address and can explain without anger and then gain your MIL's help with?

I have not. I've let DH handle her. I think she'll get offended and hold it against me if I talk to her about boundaries; she won't understand my perspective and she'll go off and sulk and be distant for a few days before going back to status quo. She gets offended when DH has said these things, but it's his mom, he can deal with it. She comes around later and apologizes after she's spent a few days sulking and thinking it over. She always pulls the "well in my culture..." card, saying she does it because it's valued in her culture. That's fine and I try to be respectful of that. That's why we go along with her having DD one day during the week. But I am not from that culture and her son does not really identify with it either (he grew up here).

DD sometimes acts spoiled and doesn't listen, not sure how much of that is her being 2 vs a result of MIL indulging her. MIL will go along with DD's insistence on snacking all day instead of having a meal, taking a late nap, basically bossing around MIL all day. I don't think MIL really disciplines her, which isn't a huge deal but it does let DD think she can get away with things like jumping on people's heads when they're not looking or playing too rough. Again, minor stuff, but it just gets tiresome when it's day in and day out and we've addressed it before.

What culture is she from? We need some context to figure out her behavior and how to address it in a culturally sensitive manner.

A culture that expects more kindness and forgiveness than ours.

DH and I were both raised in this country in Indian immigrant families. I have heard all my life about respecting elders and family bonds and what not. I struggled with boundaries for both my mom and my mil when I had my first child. I had the relationship with my mother to tell her to just stop and told her about how hard it was for me to deal with their constant advice. On the other hand, I truly value our family dynamics and if some part of that was based on the cultural norms, I did not want to give them up. My mom was annoyed at first but then told me "remember, you were raised in this country without your extended family around. Your mil and I are talking about the theory of how a joint family works but we really have no idea since we left the old country long ago. Let's find out." She called her cousin in India who lived with her in laws and asked about her experiences. The cousin literally loled and said that the joint family with no boundaries is built on the back of the mom of the family. The kids are generally happy, the dad is ok because he is not around as much, but the women are infantalized in their role in the household. She said that this is a fairly common feeling among (middle class, educated) Indian women. I offer this up so you don't over romanticize "other cultures". Each culture definitely has its good points but nothing is ever free.

[Anonymous]

She lives with you. She is a member of your family and not a roommate. Of course it's annoying and I'd be feeling the same way. There is nothing you can do since she lives with you. You can't make her stay in her room.

[Anonymous]

I think it's the pregnancy hormones talking. Try to breathe through it; you will hopefully appreciate her concern for child-related minutiae when another baby comes into the mix.

Try to frame it like this: everything she does/asks/defends- she thinks she is helping. Go with that value and don't be too hard on her. She lives with you; she would probably like to help more and is trying.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP, I'm an NP on this thread and a parent of a teen.

You've gotten some very good advice (as well as some jerkish "advice"). You also sound like a person who's able to do the very difficult job of stepping back from your emotions and being pretty objective if needed--that's great. And best of all, your DH does deal directly with his mom; I'm a fan of each adult handling his or her own parent in situations like this. Good for your DH.

From the perspective of someone who lived with a grandmother in my parents' home the entire time I was growing up (from before my birth until she died when I was 27!) I can see the issues here. And from the perspective of a parent of a much older kid, I want to add this:

You and DH need to think long-term as well as short-term. And long-term comes up quickly with young kids as they grow up so fast.

I agree with PPs who noted while DH needs to talk to her now, don't start getting into thoughts of her moving out until after the next huge step in your lives, your new baby. Your DD's world is going to be rocked by that sibling, and the huge change of having grandma move out would make the transition even harder for DD; however, you and DH do need to prepare for the possibility that grandmother is going to pretty entirely take DD over even more when the baby comes -- "I thought you'd like time alone with baby so I took DD to ride her bike." "I'll get DD to day care and then pick her up and then we'll do so and so...so you can have time with the baby." And so on.

If you object, she will say she was only trying to help you bond with baby by taking care of DD for you It will be very tempting to let her do those kinds of things, and she's admittedly great with DD, but because she undermines your parenting and teaches DD to walk all over her, you also know you can't let her just take over DD as her own when there's also a baby in the household.

I would go ahead right now and plan your maternity leave so that you have firm time alone with BOTH children at once, and plenty of it, and don't wait for MIL to have a work contract to do that for you. Make a schedule -- I know, tough with an infant and a 2.5 year old child -- but go ahead and plan out those early weeks when you are home. DH will get flak and you will possibly get complaints about how "I could be such a help if you'd let me," but your DD needs to start learning, from the start, that she has to deal with her baby sibling in day to day life. Talk to DH about how this can happen. Maybe have MIL around for the first week, then you and DH send her on a trip (not a surprise! Let her help plan it) as a gift "for all you've done and to give us some time as a couple adjusting to the kids." Don't let her Skype or Facetime when she's gone -- it's not for months! -- and do let her do something special with DD when she returns. But after that, you and DH should do as one PP said and set aside plenty of specific times every week, not negotiable with MIL, for the four of you in your nuclear family to be together.

And then you and DH need to think really longer-term. Your DD is approaching three. Is she going to go to preschool? (Despite some day cares saying they're preschools, many actually are not; kids benefit from a good preschool to get them socially ready for kindergarten.) Will grandma babysit your infant at home full-time while DD goes back to day care and/or preschool? Will both kids go to day care? Do you think MIL will be so happy about two kids that she'll give up her work and want to be the full-time caregiver? (Please do not say yes to this.)

And DD will go to kindergarten before you know it. That will be a watershed for MIL who might then focus on the baby the same way she's focused on DD now. Or grandma could try to be overly involved in DD's school experience.

I would make the start of K, or better, the start of preschool, the time frame by which DH, MIL and you agree that she'll move out somewhere nearby and remain a big part of your kids' lives but not in the home.

It is wonderful to have a healthy, active, involved and capable grandparent. I know, I had one! It's also stressful for a marriage and parent-child relationships to have another adult in the household, especially if that adult does not always adhere to the parents' rules and plays the "spoil the grandchild" part. I think your MIL sounds mostly wonderful, but also sounds as if she is mothering your DD rather than "grandmothering" her. The key thing is her living with you and how to set expectations that her living with you is going to end at a specific point in the fairly near future, if that's what you and DH decide is best for your relationship with your kids. If you need to get some counseling to help you decide how to navigate that discussion, get it, together with DH of course.

I think this is excellent advice.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think it's the pregnancy hormones talking. Try to breathe through it; you will hopefully appreciate her concern for child-related minutiae when another baby comes into the mix.

Try to frame it like this: everything she does/asks/defends- she thinks she is helping. Go with that value and don't be too hard on her. She lives with you; she would probably like to help more and is trying.

+100 Try to see her as a blessing not a curse.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Have you attempted any kind of candid heart to heart with your MIL about WHY you think certain boundaries are important? What does "walking all over her" look like? Is your child rude and defiant? Is she acting very spoiled and not listening? Are there problems and behaviors you want to work to address and can explain without anger and then gain your MIL's help with?

I have not. I've let DH handle her. I think she'll get offended and hold it against me if I talk to her about boundaries; she won't understand my perspective and she'll go off and sulk and be distant for a few days before going back to status quo. She gets offended when DH has said these things, but it's his mom, he can deal with it. She comes around later and apologizes after she's spent a few days sulking and thinking it over. She always pulls the "well in my culture..." card, saying she does it because it's valued in her culture. That's fine and I try to be respectful of that. That's why we go along with her having DD one day during the week. But I am not from that culture and her son does not really identify with it either (he grew up here).

DD sometimes acts spoiled and doesn't listen, not sure how much of that is her being 2 vs a result of MIL indulging her. MIL will go along with DD's insistence on snacking all day instead of having a meal, taking a late nap, basically bossing around MIL all day. I don't think MIL really disciplines her, which isn't a huge deal but it does let DD think she can get away with things like jumping on people's heads when they're not looking or playing too rough. Again, minor stuff, but it just gets tiresome when it's day in and day out and we've addressed it before.

What culture is she from? We need some context to figure out her behavior and how to address it in a culturally sensitive manner.

A culture that expects more kindness and forgiveness than ours.

DH and I were both raised in this country in Indian immigrant families. I have heard all my life about respecting elders and family bonds and what not. I struggled with boundaries for both my mom and my mil when I had my first child. I had the relationship with my mother to tell her to just stop and told her about how hard it was for me to deal with their constant advice. On the other hand, I truly value our family dynamics and if some part of that was based on the cultural norms, I did not want to give them up. My mom was annoyed at first but then told me "remember, you were raised in this country without your extended family around. Your mil and I are talking about the theory of how a joint family works but we really have no idea since we left the old country long ago. Let's find out." She called her cousin in India who lived with her in laws and asked about her experiences. The cousin literally loled and said that the joint family with no boundaries is built on the back of the mom of the family. The kids are generally happy, the dad is ok because he is not around as much, but the women are infantalized in their role in the household. She said that this is a fairly common feeling among (middle class, educated) Indian women. I offer this up so you don't over romanticize "other cultures". Each culture definitely has its good points but nothing is ever free.

This is so true. I'm American and married into a family from another Asian culture with the elder rulers/hierarchy/no boundaries dynamic. I've had to put my foot down a million times and tell them my culture doesn't do things the way their culture does. They think their culture is superior to all others, and automatically gets to overwrite mine also because they're older. They think their way is the only right way.

I have to remind them that my culture sees elders as equal, with all due respect, but not the ruler. And they find it offensive, but it's their problem to sort out and adapt, as this is not the old country. Even as I set boundaries, I empathize. Each side feels their way is right, and finds the others' ways difficult and often hurtful, even if no one means any harm. To compromise and balance, I always have to create the boundaries and lay down the law. If I do not, they want no boundaries to exist, and it's bad for the kids and makes me miserable.

You're going to have to start working on that, OP. I find that everyone has acceptable "excuses" for behavior in my in-laws' culture, that allows them to get around the usual ways of doing things while saving face. You might put it out there that you're very sensitive and grumpy and tired while pregnant, and you must start carving out times where MIL goes to her "dungeon" or goes out and leaves you to have private time with your child and/or husband. Give her the chance to think she's being helpful and nice in doing this. Make it become a habit. Set ground rules for what's done with the child.