"God has a plan"

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am (marginally) Catholic. I find it hard to believe that the whole world just appeared from nothing, and that no intelligence was necessary to create it. I converted as an adult but have of late become a spiritual recidivist, backsliding into the agnosticism of my youth and early 20's as I cope with secondary infertility and a child with fairly severe ADHD. I HATE when people say "God has a plan for you." To my ears, it sounds like predeterminism and I firmly do not believe in that. That has never been my conception of God. When people to say this to me, I think they are nuts. That kind of talk sounds like God decided to make me infertile and give me a child with special needs, while the drug addicts and child abusers in my area seem capable of procreating like rabbits based on all of the ads entreating people to foster this growing population of kids. If God is really that involved in our lives, determining what will happen to each of us and when, why the hell would he do this? It defies the intelligence and logic that I believe are a necessary component of creating a world like ours.

So I guess my question is, WHY do people believe in this "God has a plan" stuff? What are they trying to convey when they say it? IME, Catholics will say things like "look to God for strength and guidance," but not "God has a plan." However these days neither camp is working for me. Lately I'm more of the opinion that God exists but is a pure intelligence - a force of biological creation - that is indifferent to the fate of mankind.

You lost my sympathy there. Parents whose children end up in foster care are suffering a whole lot, and probably questioning why "God's plan" for them is to have a crippling addiction or a history of abuse/neglect that they aren't strong enough to overcome. Also, the foster population isn't growing - there has been significant decline since 2008 (almost 50% in our area). I would suggest that maybe you should foster since you clearly want children and have the ability to care for them, but these kids don't need people disparaging their birth family and identity, so please don't and don't adopt either.

- Foster parent

Some of them are suffering. Not all of them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is what people have to tell themselves to weather bad things, to believe there is some point to their suffering. Personally, I don't buy it either. When people say this to you, you are supposed to accept your infertility as part of some larger, greater scheme and be ok with it. It is supposed to make you feel better, that this isn't random bad luck. Personally, I'd rather believe in random bad luck than that the one being who is supposed to love me and everyone else more than anything allowed/caused some of my bad stuff to happen, but that's just me. I'm sorry things are difficult for you right now.

Thanks, PP. And the bolded is EXACTLY how I feel. If God is love, I'm sure as shit not feeling loved right now. My other favorite is "God doesn't give us more than we can handle." I'm begging to differ at the moment.

Exactly that, and that's the reason I backed away from religion. I haven't read through the whole thread. OP, I wish you all the best.

Thanks. I'm not seeing anything here that speaks to me, to be honest. I think the reality is is that I truly am an agnostic who really wanted to believe. I just don't believe in the God of Christian faith right now. So saying "turn to your faith" or "God has a plan" just rings very hollow to me these days.

I assume this is OP?

I understand that you feel this way and think that most people go through phases like this in their faith journey. You are searching for something much deeper than gratuitous platitudes about God will provide.

But I go back to something that I posted earlier, in response to other glimpses you have given us into your life. You are still trying to "save yourself." You think that there is something that you, as a Type A person, can and should be able to do to figure this out, make it seem reasonable, and embrace on your terms. That is simply not the way that Christianity works. Jesus asked us to give everything up to follow Him, and that includes our dreams and plans for our own lives. That is when we will receive the blessing and gift of faith. It sounds like you're not there yet, which is fine, but I think you need to recognize that.

No, I am not. I am pissed beyond belief. And I still fail to see what the hell eternal salvation has to do with my dreams and plans for my life here on earth. Everything on this earth seems kinda pointless to me at the moment. I firmly do not believe that God made me infertile b/c there is some bastard child out there somewhere waiting to be born who just couldn't make it on this earth without me as a mother. It's a pretty twisted view, as I think about it, because it means some poor soul has to end up pregnant with a child they don't want. It's pretty sick to wish that on someone, and I don't. If an adoption happens for us, great. But I'm not going to wish an unplanned pregnancy on someone just so I can be a mother again. And I can't see how a benevolent and caring God would want that either. I CAN see how an indifferent one (I.E. pure intelligence) couldn't care less and has nothing to do with it either way.

I think I just need to go be a Unitarian Universalist since they don't traffic in platitudes or absolutes or claim to know what is true. I can respect that.

God did not "make you" infertile. You are infertile because of the biological truths that you detailed earlier... scarring on uterine lining, I think you said? God did not plant that there. It happened because your body failed. You've also gotten sick from time to time, I assume, and your body is wrinkling. Your body is designed to fail, to fall a part. It is not perfect nor everlasting.

That God can take your strong desire to parent again and turn it into the blessing of an adoption is a reality. It should be a blessing for all involved -- you, your DH, your current child, the new child, the biological parents. It's not wishing an unplanned pregnancy on someone.

As per usual among true believers, God is responsible for the good stuff and not the bad stuff. It's a real talent to be able to think this way. It doesn't come naturally to many people.

OP here. That is exactly my struggle. If I am being asked to believe that God has some "plan" for me, then I have to accept that I am infertile because there is some predestined plan for me to become the mother of a child borne of another woman. I can't make that leap, folks. I really don't think he has anything to do with any of it. I truly believe he is indifferent.

I'm up above agreeing with you that there is no plan. But, even if you believe in a plan, it doesn't have to be the one you laid out. Perhaps the infertility is about planning to give you free time to discvoer the cure for cancer in the future, or perhaps you would have birthed the next hitler so the plan frees all of us from that, or perhaps the you gave birth to would have had a terrible illness keeping him sick for 3 years then killing him and the infertility spares you from that. Not that I believe in the plan but not sure why your vision of it is so narrow. Obviously every infertile person is not able to adopt, so that can't be the plan for all infertile couples.

This is exactly OP's problem. She can't yet see past her own hopes and dreams. Sometimes we truly have to lose it all before we see God.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am (marginally) Catholic. I find it hard to believe that the whole world just appeared from nothing, and that no intelligence was necessary to create it. I converted as an adult but have of late become a spiritual recidivist, backsliding into the agnosticism of my youth and early 20's as I cope with secondary infertility and a child with fairly severe ADHD. I HATE when people say "God has a plan for you." To my ears, it sounds like predeterminism and I firmly do not believe in that. That has never been my conception of God. When people to say this to me, I think they are nuts. That kind of talk sounds like God decided to make me infertile and give me a child with special needs, while the drug addicts and child abusers in my area seem capable of procreating like rabbits based on all of the ads entreating people to foster this growing population of kids. If God is really that involved in our lives, determining what will happen to each of us and when, why the hell would he do this? It defies the intelligence and logic that I believe are a necessary component of creating a world like ours.

So I guess my question is, WHY do people believe in this "God has a plan" stuff? What are they trying to convey when they say it? IME, Catholics will say things like "look to God for strength and guidance," but not "God has a plan." However these days neither camp is working for me. Lately I'm more of the opinion that God exists but is a pure intelligence - a force of biological creation - that is indifferent to the fate of mankind.

You lost my sympathy there. Parents whose children end up in foster care are suffering a whole lot, and probably questioning why "God's plan" for them is to have a crippling addiction or a history of abuse/neglect that they aren't strong enough to overcome. Also, the foster population isn't growing - there has been significant decline since 2008 (almost 50% in our area). I would suggest that maybe you should foster since you clearly want children and have the ability to care for them, but these kids don't need people disparaging their birth family and identity, so please don't and don't adopt either.

- Foster parent

birth family and identity, so please don't and don't adopt either.

- Foster parent

I'm not looking for sympathy.

The foster population IS growing in my area, which is rife with heroin and meth addicts in the inner-city core and the rural outskirts. I don't think God has a plan to make people struggle with addiction anymore than he has a plan for me. I think they made life choices, like I did, and there's also a lot of complete chance and randomness thrown in, and they ended up where they are and I ended up here. And I find it hard to believe that any God would plan that for these people to be addicts or plan for their children to be born addicted to heroin anymore than God would plan for me to be infertile. I think that saying it's "God's plan" makes people feel better about the crap that goes down in this life and helps rationalize terrible things happen.

And no, I am not going to foster b/c my life is not set up to support a child that has had a terrible start with neglect and abuse and who knows what else. I admire you for doing it, but not all of us are cut out for that. I am certainly not.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is what people have to tell themselves to weather bad things, to believe there is some point to their suffering. Personally, I don't buy it either. When people say this to you, you are supposed to accept your infertility as part of some larger, greater scheme and be ok with it. It is supposed to make you feel better, that this isn't random bad luck. Personally, I'd rather believe in random bad luck than that the one being who is supposed to love me and everyone else more than anything allowed/caused some of my bad stuff to happen, but that's just me. I'm sorry things are difficult for you right now.

Thanks, PP. And the bolded is EXACTLY how I feel. If God is love, I'm sure as shit not feeling loved right now. My other favorite is "God doesn't give us more than we can handle." I'm begging to differ at the moment.

Exactly that, and that's the reason I backed away from religion. I haven't read through the whole thread. OP, I wish you all the best.

Thanks. I'm not seeing anything here that speaks to me, to be honest. I think the reality is is that I truly am an agnostic who really wanted to believe. I just don't believe in the God of Christian faith right now. So saying "turn to your faith" or "God has a plan" just rings very hollow to me these days.

I assume this is OP?

I understand that you feel this way and think that most people go through phases like this in their faith journey. You are searching for something much deeper than gratuitous platitudes about God will provide.

But I go back to something that I posted earlier, in response to other glimpses you have given us into your life. You are still trying to "save yourself." You think that there is something that you, as a Type A person, can and should be able to do to figure this out, make it seem reasonable, and embrace on your terms. That is simply not the way that Christianity works. Jesus asked us to give everything up to follow Him, and that includes our dreams and plans for our own lives. That is when we will receive the blessing and gift of faith. It sounds like you're not there yet, which is fine, but I think you need to recognize that.

No, I am not. I am pissed beyond belief. And I still fail to see what the hell eternal salvation has to do with my dreams and plans for my life here on earth. Everything on this earth seems kinda pointless to me at the moment. I firmly do not believe that God made me infertile b/c there is some bastard child out there somewhere waiting to be born who just couldn't make it on this earth without me as a mother. It's a pretty twisted view, as I think about it, because it means some poor soul has to end up pregnant with a child they don't want. It's pretty sick to wish that on someone, and I don't. If an adoption happens for us, great. But I'm not going to wish an unplanned pregnancy on someone just so I can be a mother again. And I can't see how a benevolent and caring God would want that either. I CAN see how an indifferent one (I.E. pure intelligence) couldn't care less and has nothing to do with it either way.

I think I just need to go be a Unitarian Universalist since they don't traffic in platitudes or absolutes or claim to know what is true. I can respect that.

God did not "make you" infertile. You are infertile because of the biological truths that you detailed earlier... scarring on uterine lining, I think you said? God did not plant that there. It happened because your body failed. You've also gotten sick from time to time, I assume, and your body is wrinkling. Your body is designed to fail, to fall a part. It is not perfect nor everlasting.

That God can take your strong desire to parent again and turn it into the blessing of an adoption is a reality. It should be a blessing for all involved -- you, your DH, your current child, the new child, the biological parents. It's not wishing an unplanned pregnancy on someone.

As per usual among true believers, God is responsible for the good stuff and not the bad stuff. It's a real talent to be able to think this way. It doesn't come naturally to many people.

OP here. That is exactly my struggle. If I am being asked to believe that God has some "plan" for me, then I have to accept that I am infertile because there is some predestined plan for me to become the mother of a child borne of another woman. I can't make that leap, folks. I really don't think he has anything to do with any of it. I truly believe he is indifferent.

I'm up above agreeing with you that there is no plan. But, even if you believe in a plan, it doesn't have to be the one you laid out. Perhaps the infertility is about planning to give you free time to discvoer the cure for cancer in the future, or perhaps you would have birthed the next hitler so the plan frees all of us from that, or perhaps the you gave birth to would have had a terrible illness keeping him sick for 3 years then killing him and the infertility spares you from that. Not that I believe in the plan but not sure why your vision of it is so narrow. Obviously every infertile person is not able to adopt, so that can't be the plan for all infertile couples.

This is exactly OP's problem. She can't yet see past her own hopes and dreams. Sometimes we truly have to lose it all before we see God.

Or it could just be that the "plan" of adoption is a choice I have made because I have the intelligence and free will to do so and not the result of anything to do with God other than the gift of free will.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is what people have to tell themselves to weather bad things, to believe there is some point to their suffering. Personally, I don't buy it either. When people say this to you, you are supposed to accept your infertility as part of some larger, greater scheme and be ok with it. It is supposed to make you feel better, that this isn't random bad luck. Personally, I'd rather believe in random bad luck than that the one being who is supposed to love me and everyone else more than anything allowed/caused some of my bad stuff to happen, but that's just me. I'm sorry things are difficult for you right now.

Thanks, PP. And the bolded is EXACTLY how I feel. If God is love, I'm sure as shit not feeling loved right now. My other favorite is "God doesn't give us more than we can handle." I'm begging to differ at the moment.

Exactly that, and that's the reason I backed away from religion. I haven't read through the whole thread. OP, I wish you all the best.

Thanks. I'm not seeing anything here that speaks to me, to be honest. I think the reality is is that I truly am an agnostic who really wanted to believe. I just don't believe in the God of Christian faith right now. So saying "turn to your faith" or "God has a plan" just rings very hollow to me these days.

I assume this is OP?

I understand that you feel this way and think that most people go through phases like this in their faith journey. You are searching for something much deeper than gratuitous platitudes about God will provide.

But I go back to something that I posted earlier, in response to other glimpses you have given us into your life. You are still trying to "save yourself." You think that there is something that you, as a Type A person, can and should be able to do to figure this out, make it seem reasonable, and embrace on your terms. That is simply not the way that Christianity works. Jesus asked us to give everything up to follow Him, and that includes our dreams and plans for our own lives. That is when we will receive the blessing and gift of faith. It sounds like you're not there yet, which is fine, but I think you need to recognize that.

No, I am not. I am pissed beyond belief. And I still fail to see what the hell eternal salvation has to do with my dreams and plans for my life here on earth. Everything on this earth seems kinda pointless to me at the moment. I firmly do not believe that God made me infertile b/c there is some bastard child out there somewhere waiting to be born who just couldn't make it on this earth without me as a mother. It's a pretty twisted view, as I think about it, because it means some poor soul has to end up pregnant with a child they don't want. It's pretty sick to wish that on someone, and I don't. If an adoption happens for us, great. But I'm not going to wish an unplanned pregnancy on someone just so I can be a mother again. And I can't see how a benevolent and caring God would want that either. I CAN see how an indifferent one (I.E. pure intelligence) couldn't care less and has nothing to do with it either way.

I think I just need to go be a Unitarian Universalist since they don't traffic in platitudes or absolutes or claim to know what is true. I can respect that.

God did not "make you" infertile. You are infertile because of the biological truths that you detailed earlier... scarring on uterine lining, I think you said? God did not plant that there. It happened because your body failed. You've also gotten sick from time to time, I assume, and your body is wrinkling. Your body is designed to fail, to fall a part. It is not perfect nor everlasting.

That God can take your strong desire to parent again and turn it into the blessing of an adoption is a reality. It should be a blessing for all involved -- you, your DH, your current child, the new child, the biological parents. It's not wishing an unplanned pregnancy on someone.

As per usual among true believers, God is responsible for the good stuff and not the bad stuff. It's a real talent to be able to think this way. It doesn't come naturally to many people.

OP here. That is exactly my struggle. If I am being asked to believe that God has some "plan" for me, then I have to accept that I am infertile because there is some predestined plan for me to become the mother of a child borne of another woman. I can't make that leap, folks. I really don't think he has anything to do with any of it. I truly believe he is indifferent.

I'm up above agreeing with you that there is no plan. But, even if you believe in a plan, it doesn't have to be the one you laid out. Perhaps the infertility is about planning to give you free time to discvoer the cure for cancer in the future, or perhaps you would have birthed the next hitler so the plan frees all of us from that, or perhaps the you gave birth to would have had a terrible illness keeping him sick for 3 years then killing him and the infertility spares you from that. Not that I believe in the plan but not sure why your vision of it is so narrow. Obviously every infertile person is not able to adopt, so that can't be the plan for all infertile couples.

This is exactly OP's problem. She can't yet see past her own hopes and dreams. Sometimes we truly have to lose it all before we see God.

Or it could just be that the "plan" of adoption is a choice I have made because I have the intelligence and free will to do so and not the result of anything to do with God other than the gift of free will.

Exactly. And this adoption could turn out to be the greatest blessing of your life, far more than you could have ever imagined or planned for yourself.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is what people have to tell themselves to weather bad things, to believe there is some point to their suffering. Personally, I don't buy it either. When people say this to you, you are supposed to accept your infertility as part of some larger, greater scheme and be ok with it. It is supposed to make you feel better, that this isn't random bad luck. Personally, I'd rather believe in random bad luck than that the one being who is supposed to love me and everyone else more than anything allowed/caused some of my bad stuff to happen, but that's just me. I'm sorry things are difficult for you right now.

Thanks, PP. And the bolded is EXACTLY how I feel. If God is love, I'm sure as shit not feeling loved right now. My other favorite is "God doesn't give us more than we can handle." I'm begging to differ at the moment.

Exactly that, and that's the reason I backed away from religion. I haven't read through the whole thread. OP, I wish you all the best.

Thanks. I'm not seeing anything here that speaks to me, to be honest. I think the reality is is that I truly am an agnostic who really wanted to believe. I just don't believe in the God of Christian faith right now. So saying "turn to your faith" or "God has a plan" just rings very hollow to me these days.

I assume this is OP?

I understand that you feel this way and think that most people go through phases like this in their faith journey. You are searching for something much deeper than gratuitous platitudes about God will provide.

But I go back to something that I posted earlier, in response to other glimpses you have given us into your life. You are still trying to "save yourself." You think that there is something that you, as a Type A person, can and should be able to do to figure this out, make it seem reasonable, and embrace on your terms. That is simply not the way that Christianity works. Jesus asked us to give everything up to follow Him, and that includes our dreams and plans for our own lives. That is when we will receive the blessing and gift of faith. It sounds like you're not there yet, which is fine, but I think you need to recognize that.

No, I am not. I am pissed beyond belief. And I still fail to see what the hell eternal salvation has to do with my dreams and plans for my life here on earth. Everything on this earth seems kinda pointless to me at the moment. I firmly do not believe that God made me infertile b/c there is some bastard child out there somewhere waiting to be born who just couldn't make it on this earth without me as a mother. It's a pretty twisted view, as I think about it, because it means some poor soul has to end up pregnant with a child they don't want. It's pretty sick to wish that on someone, and I don't. If an adoption happens for us, great. But I'm not going to wish an unplanned pregnancy on someone just so I can be a mother again. And I can't see how a benevolent and caring God would want that either. I CAN see how an indifferent one (I.E. pure intelligence) couldn't care less and has nothing to do with it either way.

I think I just need to go be a Unitarian Universalist since they don't traffic in platitudes or absolutes or claim to know what is true. I can respect that.

God did not "make you" infertile. You are infertile because of the biological truths that you detailed earlier... scarring on uterine lining, I think you said? God did not plant that there. It happened because your body failed. You've also gotten sick from time to time, I assume, and your body is wrinkling. Your body is designed to fail, to fall a part. It is not perfect nor everlasting.

That God can take your strong desire to parent again and turn it into the blessing of an adoption is a reality. It should be a blessing for all involved -- you, your DH, your current child, the new child, the biological parents. It's not wishing an unplanned pregnancy on someone.

As per usual among true believers, God is responsible for the good stuff and not the bad stuff. It's a real talent to be able to think this way. It doesn't come naturally to many people.

OP here. That is exactly my struggle. If I am being asked to believe that God has some "plan" for me, then I have to accept that I am infertile because there is some predestined plan for me to become the mother of a child borne of another woman. I can't make that leap, folks. I really don't think he has anything to do with any of it. I truly believe he is indifferent.

I'm up above agreeing with you that there is no plan. But, even if you believe in a plan, it doesn't have to be the one you laid out. Perhaps the infertility is about planning to give you free time to discvoer the cure for cancer in the future, or perhaps you would have birthed the next hitler so the plan frees all of us from that, or perhaps the you gave birth to would have had a terrible illness keeping him sick for 3 years then killing him and the infertility spares you from that. Not that I believe in the plan but not sure why your vision of it is so narrow. Obviously every infertile person is not able to adopt, so that can't be the plan for all infertile couples.

This is exactly OP's problem. She can't yet see past her own hopes and dreams. Sometimes we truly have to lose it all before we see God.

Or it could just be that the "plan" of adoption is a choice I have made because I have the intelligence and free will to do so and not the result of anything to do with God other than the gift of free will.

Exactly. And this adoption could turn out to be the greatest blessing of your life, far more than you could have ever imagined or planned for yourself.

And you may be right. And I may be right that it has nothing to do with some big, grand divine plan for my life. It could all just be one big coincidence. Because once again this line of argument is asking me to ascribe the bad stuff to "bodies break down" and the good stuff to God. If God is who Catholic Christians say he is, then he is responsible for all of it. And I find that a hard pill to swallow.

I know someone dying of terminal cancer. What should I tell him of God's plan? What good is coming to his life as he slowly dies from a metasticizing cancer?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is what people have to tell themselves to weather bad things, to believe there is some point to their suffering. Personally, I don't buy it either. When people say this to you, you are supposed to accept your infertility as part of some larger, greater scheme and be ok with it. It is supposed to make you feel better, that this isn't random bad luck. Personally, I'd rather believe in random bad luck than that the one being who is supposed to love me and everyone else more than anything allowed/caused some of my bad stuff to happen, but that's just me. I'm sorry things are difficult for you right now.

Thanks, PP. And the bolded is EXACTLY how I feel. If God is love, I'm sure as shit not feeling loved right now. My other favorite is "God doesn't give us more than we can handle." I'm begging to differ at the moment.

Exactly that, and that's the reason I backed away from religion. I haven't read through the whole thread. OP, I wish you all the best.

Thanks. I'm not seeing anything here that speaks to me, to be honest. I think the reality is is that I truly am an agnostic who really wanted to believe. I just don't believe in the God of Christian faith right now. So saying "turn to your faith" or "God has a plan" just rings very hollow to me these days.

I assume this is OP?

I understand that you feel this way and think that most people go through phases like this in their faith journey. You are searching for something much deeper than gratuitous platitudes about God will provide.

But I go back to something that I posted earlier, in response to other glimpses you have given us into your life. You are still trying to "save yourself." You think that there is something that you, as a Type A person, can and should be able to do to figure this out, make it seem reasonable, and embrace on your terms. That is simply not the way that Christianity works. Jesus asked us to give everything up to follow Him, and that includes our dreams and plans for our own lives. That is when we will receive the blessing and gift of faith. It sounds like you're not there yet, which is fine, but I think you need to recognize that.

No, I am not. I am pissed beyond belief. And I still fail to see what the hell eternal salvation has to do with my dreams and plans for my life here on earth. Everything on this earth seems kinda pointless to me at the moment. I firmly do not believe that God made me infertile b/c there is some bastard child out there somewhere waiting to be born who just couldn't make it on this earth without me as a mother. It's a pretty twisted view, as I think about it, because it means some poor soul has to end up pregnant with a child they don't want. It's pretty sick to wish that on someone, and I don't. If an adoption happens for us, great. But I'm not going to wish an unplanned pregnancy on someone just so I can be a mother again. And I can't see how a benevolent and caring God would want that either. I CAN see how an indifferent one (I.E. pure intelligence) couldn't care less and has nothing to do with it either way.

I think I just need to go be a Unitarian Universalist since they don't traffic in platitudes or absolutes or claim to know what is true. I can respect that.

God did not "make you" infertile. You are infertile because of the biological truths that you detailed earlier... scarring on uterine lining, I think you said? God did not plant that there. It happened because your body failed. You've also gotten sick from time to time, I assume, and your body is wrinkling. Your body is designed to fail, to fall a part. It is not perfect nor everlasting.

That God can take your strong desire to parent again and turn it into the blessing of an adoption is a reality. It should be a blessing for all involved -- you, your DH, your current child, the new child, the biological parents. It's not wishing an unplanned pregnancy on someone.

As per usual among true believers, God is responsible for the good stuff and not the bad stuff. It's a real talent to be able to think this way. It doesn't come naturally to many people.

OP here. That is exactly my struggle. If I am being asked to believe that God has some "plan" for me, then I have to accept that I am infertile because there is some predestined plan for me to become the mother of a child borne of another woman. I can't make that leap, folks. I really don't think he has anything to do with any of it. I truly believe he is indifferent.

I'm up above agreeing with you that there is no plan. But, even if you believe in a plan, it doesn't have to be the one you laid out. Perhaps the infertility is about planning to give you free time to discvoer the cure for cancer in the future, or perhaps you would have birthed the next hitler so the plan frees all of us from that, or perhaps the you gave birth to would have had a terrible illness keeping him sick for 3 years then killing him and the infertility spares you from that. Not that I believe in the plan but not sure why your vision of it is so narrow. Obviously every infertile person is not able to adopt, so that can't be the plan for all infertile couples.

Wow - what an imagination! Then again, the child they adopt may be the next Hitler

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
This is exactly OP's problem. She can't yet see past her own hopes and dreams. Sometimes we truly have to lose it all before we see God.

And sometimes when we lose it all is when we figure out that no god is in control. Seeing other people lose it all is not as effective, but when it happens to us it's easier to put together.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
I believe I said I did not believe God made me infertile, anymore than I believe he gives people unplanned pregnancies so that infertile women can become mothers. God, IMO, is not "doing" anything here. And I am leaning on the side that He is not doing anything because he does not have a plan for nor intervene directly in our lives.

Or doesn't exist at all.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
I believe I said I did not believe God made me infertile, anymore than I believe he gives people unplanned pregnancies so that infertile women can become mothers. God, IMO, is not "doing" anything here. And I am leaning on the side that He is not doing anything because he does not have a plan for nor intervene directly in our lives.

Or doesn't exist at all.

+1 Believers excuse all the shit that happens to them as "part of God's plan," because otherwise their faith in that invisible puppeteer in the sky who loves them dearly makes no sense. Classic cognitive dissonance.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
I believe I said I did not believe God made me infertile, anymore than I believe he gives people unplanned pregnancies so that infertile women can become mothers. God, IMO, is not "doing" anything here. And I am leaning on the side that He is not doing anything because he does not have a plan for nor intervene directly in our lives.

Or doesn't exist at all.

+1 Believers excuse all the shit that happens to them as "part of God's plan," because otherwise their faith in that invisible puppeteer in the sky who loves them dearly makes no sense. Classic cognitive dissonance.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
I believe I said I did not believe God made me infertile, anymore than I believe he gives people unplanned pregnancies so that infertile women can become mothers. God, IMO, is not "doing" anything here. And I am leaning on the side that He is not doing anything because he does not have a plan for nor intervene directly in our lives.

Or doesn't exist at all.

+1 Believers excuse all the shit that happens to them as "part of God's plan," because otherwise their faith in that invisible puppeteer in the sky who loves them dearly makes no sense. Classic cognitive dissonance.

"All the shit that happens" is in no way part of God's plan. He wanted perfection for us.

[Anonymous]

He wants all of us to eventually repent and come to him

He gives us free will to decide if we want to or not (from our perspective)

At the same time He also knows whats going to happen (God's plan/predestination)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Maybe God does have a plan, it is just a very fucked up, shitty one?

And your plan is to cruise forums that deal with religion and post banal and profane statements.

[Anonymous]

Someone put a NT verse on here that says God has a plan for each person.

Also, you can put a verse on here that says that God causes people to die. For example...one that would show that when someone says something like...God decided to call them home....it's scripturally sound.

This is a serious request. Because I cannot find that in the NT.

His will? Yep. Desire? Yep. Hope? Yep. Goal? Yep. Even a way to live? Yep.

So...where are the verses? And if you know where the one that says...God won't give you more...or tempt you...or try you...include those too.