"God has a plan"

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am (marginally) Catholic. I find it hard to believe that the whole world just appeared from nothing, and that no intelligence was necessary to create it. I converted as an adult but have of late become a spiritual recidivist, backsliding into the agnosticism of my youth and early 20's as I cope with secondary infertility and a child with fairly severe ADHD. I HATE when people say "God has a plan for you." To my ears, it sounds like predeterminism and I firmly do not believe in that. That has never been my conception of God. When people to say this to me, I think they are nuts. That kind of talk sounds like God decided to make me infertile and give me a child with special needs, while the drug addicts and child abusers in my area seem capable of procreating like rabbits based on all of the ads entreating people to foster this growing population of kids. If God is really that involved in our lives, determining what will happen to each of us and when, why the hell would he do this? It defies the intelligence and logic that I believe are a necessary component of creating a world like ours.

So I guess my question is, WHY do people believe in this "God has a plan" stuff? What are they trying to convey when they say it? IME, Catholics will say things like "look to God for strength and guidance," but not "God has a plan." However these days neither camp is working for me. Lately I'm more of the opinion that God exists but is a pure intelligence - a force of biological creation - that is indifferent to the fate of mankind.

OP, you are asking some very intelligent questions here. I am Christian but not Catholic and will provide my POV from that perspective.

First, please understand that when people make statements like this, they are not trying to dismiss your pain. This is just one of those clumsy things that people say when they want to say something to help, but know that no words really can. I know it's grating and hits a horrible hot spot with you, but please try to have a little compassion.

As I'm sure you know, God never promised us a perfect or an easy life. We all have our share of misery, pain and misfortune. What God did promise is that He is with us through those times and that "all things work together" for those that love the Lord and are called according to His purpose. To me, this means that it is actually irrelevant to God if we have no children or fifty - He still calls us to follow Him through Jesus. All of us, and all of our children, are broken in some way -- ADHD or something else. No one gets a pass on the problems of life.

BUT the good news is that these problems, illnesses, hardships, periods of unemployment, depression, addictions, etc etc etc can be used by God to redeem us and to witness His word and His way here on earth. I don't believe that God singled you out for secondary infertility, or your child with ADHD. These things are just factors of life in the less-than-perfect world we live in. But He can use them, and you, for good -- if you will let Him.

This is basically what my friend said. And again, it doesn't sit with me, because I am Type A, and I believe in my own power to get shit done, and I don't want to be "used" by God to make some sort of point about the meaning of the world or life or whatever. I hear what you are saying, and I appreciate it, but as I think more and more about it I just think that the religious notion of God no longer makes any sense to me.

A lot of people come to that conclusion when in a situation like yours. Because it's personal, they concentrate, perhaps for the first time, on how illogical and hurtful it is and can't imagine a gracious god acting in such a way.

Others continue to believe and still others find that their faith is strengthened as they accept that God is working in their lives in ways that they do not understand - at least not yet.

[Anonymous]

I was very agnostic for many years. Recently I have come to believe that perhaps God did have a plan. When I look at all the truly awful things I went through in life and realize that I could only have gotten to this good place with wonderful children, etc. by taking that path.

I hope that you find peace.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I'm a lapsed Catholic and not really a "God has a plan person." That being said, when I hear it, I take it to mean that the situations presented to us help shape who we are and even so-called tragedies can present either opportunities for growth or opportunities to make a contribution. I think about people who have lost children and are able to start charities to find cures for diseases or stop pedophiles or comfort those who experienced similar tragedy.

I see it more as everyone has something to offer regardless of what life hands you. You will have a certain strength and perspective that others don't.

There's also other ways of looking at your situation. Though you may not be able to physically have another child, you could adopt.

How we cope with life's difficulties is an important part of it. I found helping those less fortunate and traveling abroad - particularly to Africa - have helped me escape my past bouts of despair. People there have unimaginable hardship and yet get through the day with a smile.

Coping with ADHD is not easy. You should take care of yourself first so that you can take care of others. Get any help you can within your means. And are you certain about your infertility? I had my first child slightly before 43. Before that I truly thought it wasn't in the cards.

Another good coping strategy is to see what's good and what works in your life.


Does God have a plan? I don't know. But I do think life is a gift.

Thanks, PP. I am certain about my infertility. Both fallopian tubes and about 70% of my uterus is blocked with scarring. Surgery and estrogen did not help. It's over. IVF would be a joke b/c there is a slim chance an embryo could implant anyway (where would it go in that scar infested wasteland?) and even if it did I'd have an extremely high risk of miscarriage. It's pointless. And we are adopting.

And I hear you about other people have it worse. I think about that all the time. And you know what? It really doesn't help. I suppose it should make me feel grateful for what I do have but what it really makes me feel is that the world is a capricious place full of misery and that I don't really see the big metaphysical point of it all. I'm not sure there is a point, or a God that feels/loves/cares. I think we are just here, for reasons we will never really know. And that we just have to do the best we can to survive, like every other animal on this third rock from the sun. I'm starting to feel the story of Genesis though - we are doomed by the power of our own thoughts. I envy animals with small brains who don't have to think about what this life means like we are compelled to do.

[Anonymous]

You are struggling with faith. It's your own journey. And you don't have to have it. But you do control the lens through which you view the world. Maybe read Eckhardt Tolle's a New Earth.

You can equally look for the good as you seem to look for the bad. You are editing the way you want to view the world. Understandable, but it's a cultivated stance. Yep, there's crap. And there's a lot of good stuff too. You control the channel you want to watch.

[Anonymous]

In other words, cherry pick your senses until you can feel good about God again? WTF does God need me to cherry pick.

Why does any of this matter if all anyone ever have to do is accept Jesus and be admitted into heaven. That's the only thing that matters. This life doesn't matter in any sense other than accepting Jesus, if you believe in the teachings.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I was very agnostic for many years. Recently I have come to believe that perhaps God did have a plan. When I look at all the truly awful things I went through in life and realize that I could only have gotten to this good place with wonderful children, etc. by taking that path.

I hope that you find peace.

But are you SURE you could only have gotten there on that path, and no other? Other people seem to have gotten to a good place with very little struggle. I know many people who've just breezed though life so far - decent upbringing, education, marriage, multiple children - without some big setback. Am I to believe that God is just lying in wait, ready to throw something at them? What is the point? Why do some people suffer a lot and others very little? I am aware that I have good things in my life and, I suppose, am grateful for them, but knowing that people starve to death all over this world every day just makes me feel the capriciousness of it all even more. What did I do to "deserve" this and what did those people do to "deserve" a miserable existence?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:In other words, cherry pick your senses until you can feel good about God again? WTF does God need me to cherry pick.

Why does any of this matter if all anyone ever have to do is accept Jesus and be admitted into heaven. That's the only thing that matters. This life doesn't matter in any sense other than accepting Jesus, if you believe in the teachings.

OP here. That's a pretty meaningless existence, IMO. Why give us intelligence and the ability to ask why if it doesn't matter?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am (marginally) Catholic. I find it hard to believe that the whole world just appeared from nothing, and that no intelligence was necessary to create it. I converted as an adult but have of late become a spiritual recidivist, backsliding into the agnosticism of my youth and early 20's as I cope with secondary infertility and a child with fairly severe ADHD. I HATE when people say "God has a plan for you." To my ears, it sounds like predeterminism and I firmly do not believe in that. That has never been my conception of God. When people to say this to me, I think they are nuts. That kind of talk sounds like God decided to make me infertile and give me a child with special needs, while the drug addicts and child abusers in my area seem capable of procreating like rabbits based on all of the ads entreating people to foster this growing population of kids. If God is really that involved in our lives, determining what will happen to each of us and when, why the hell would he do this? It defies the intelligence and logic that I believe are a necessary component of creating a world like ours.

So I guess my question is, WHY do people believe in this "God has a plan" stuff? What are they trying to convey when they say it? IME, Catholics will say things like "look to God for strength and guidance," but not "God has a plan." However these days neither camp is working for me. Lately I'm more of the opinion that God exists but is a pure intelligence - a force of biological creation - that is indifferent to the fate of mankind.

OP, you are asking some very intelligent questions here. I am Christian but not Catholic and will provide my POV from that perspective.

First, please understand that when people make statements like this, they are not trying to dismiss your pain. This is just one of those clumsy things that people say when they want to say something to help, but know that no words really can. I know it's grating and hits a horrible hot spot with you, but please try to have a little compassion.

As I'm sure you know, God never promised us a perfect or an easy life. We all have our share of misery, pain and misfortune. What God did promise is that He is with us through those times and that "all things work together" for those that love the Lord and are called according to His purpose. To me, this means that it is actually irrelevant to God if we have no children or fifty - He still calls us to follow Him through Jesus. All of us, and all of our children, are broken in some way -- ADHD or something else. No one gets a pass on the problems of life.

BUT the good news is that these problems, illnesses, hardships, periods of unemployment, depression, addictions, etc etc etc can be used by God to redeem us and to witness His word and His way here on earth. I don't believe that God singled you out for secondary infertility, or your child with ADHD. These things are just factors of life in the less-than-perfect world we live in. But He can use them, and you, for good -- if you will let Him.

This is basically what my friend said. And again, it doesn't sit with me, because I am Type A, and I believe in my own power to get shit done, and I don't want to be "used" by God to make some sort of point about the meaning of the world or life or whatever. I hear what you are saying, and I appreciate it, but as I think more and more about it I just think that the religious notion of God no longer makes any sense to me.

This is your problem right here, at least as it is viewed by Christianity. Great that you are Type A and believe in "your own power to get shit done," but as you may be getting an inkling here, we cannot save ourselves. That is what Christianity is all about. God made you Type A and appreciates that about your personality but it has nothing to do with your salvation.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm a lapsed Catholic and not really a "God has a plan person." That being said, when I hear it, I take it to mean that the situations presented to us help shape who we are and even so-called tragedies can present either opportunities for growth or opportunities to make a contribution. I think about people who have lost children and are able to start charities to find cures for diseases or stop pedophiles or comfort those who experienced similar tragedy.

I see it more as everyone has something to offer regardless of what life hands you. You will have a certain strength and perspective that others don't.

There's also other ways of looking at your situation. Though you may not be able to physically have another child, you could adopt.

How we cope with life's difficulties is an important part of it. I found helping those less fortunate and traveling abroad - particularly to Africa - have helped me escape my past bouts of despair. People there have unimaginable hardship and yet get through the day with a smile.

Coping with ADHD is not easy. You should take care of yourself first so that you can take care of others. Get any help you can within your means. And are you certain about your infertility? I had my first child slightly before 43. Before that I truly thought it wasn't in the cards.

Another good coping strategy is to see what's good and what works in your life.


Does God have a plan? I don't know. But I do think life is a gift.

Thanks, PP. I am certain about my infertility. Both fallopian tubes and about 70% of my uterus is blocked with scarring. Surgery and estrogen did not help. It's over. IVF would be a joke b/c there is a slim chance an embryo could implant anyway (where would it go in that scar infested wasteland?) and even if it did I'd have an extremely high risk of miscarriage. It's pointless. And we are adopting.

And I hear you about other people have it worse. I think about that all the time. And you know what? It really doesn't help. I suppose it should make me feel grateful for what I do have but what it really makes me feel is that the world is a capricious place full of misery and that I don't really see the big metaphysical point of it all. I'm not sure there is a point, or a God that feels/loves/cares. I think we are just here, for reasons we will never really know. And that we just have to do the best we can to survive, like every other animal on this third rock from the sun. I'm starting to feel the story of Genesis though - we are doomed by the power of our own thoughts. I envy animals with small brains who don't have to think about what this life means like we are compelled to do.

OP, the facts of your biology are just that. They are facts about your broken body that will eventually stop working altogether and you will die. That is just how it is, for all of us.

As to your bolded statement, to a point, this is true. Yes, the world is capricious in many regards and there is certainly much misery. Our purpose as humans is to know God through this and in turn to love others as He has loved us. Of course God cares. He cares so much that He sent His son to redeem us. He is constantly reaching out to us, through the Holy Spirit. And you are on the right track with the book of Genesis, which is a wonderful summary of it all. Read it, again. It is the story of God working through mankind as a whole, and us as individuals.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm a lapsed Catholic and not really a "God has a plan person." That being said, when I hear it, I take it to mean that the situations presented to us help shape who we are and even so-called tragedies can present either opportunities for growth or opportunities to make a contribution. I think about people who have lost children and are able to start charities to find cures for diseases or stop pedophiles or comfort those who experienced similar tragedy.

I see it more as everyone has something to offer regardless of what life hands you. You will have a certain strength and perspective that others don't.

There's also other ways of looking at your situation. Though you may not be able to physically have another child, you could adopt.

How we cope with life's difficulties is an important part of it. I found helping those less fortunate and traveling abroad - particularly to Africa - have helped me escape my past bouts of despair. People there have unimaginable hardship and yet get through the day with a smile.

Coping with ADHD is not easy. You should take care of yourself first so that you can take care of others. Get any help you can within your means. And are you certain about your infertility? I had my first child slightly before 43. Before that I truly thought it wasn't in the cards.

Another good coping strategy is to see what's good and what works in your life.


Does God have a plan? I don't know. But I do think life is a gift.

Thanks, PP. I am certain about my infertility. Both fallopian tubes and about 70% of my uterus is blocked with scarring. Surgery and estrogen did not help. It's over. IVF would be a joke b/c there is a slim chance an embryo could implant anyway (where would it go in that scar infested wasteland?) and even if it did I'd have an extremely high risk of miscarriage. It's pointless. And we are adopting.

And I hear you about other people have it worse. I think about that all the time. And you know what? It really doesn't help. I suppose it should make me feel grateful for what I do have but what it really makes me feel is that the world is a capricious place full of misery and that I don't really see the big metaphysical point of it all. I'm not sure there is a point, or a God that feels/loves/cares. I think we are just here, for reasons we will never really know. And that we just have to do the best we can to survive, like every other animal on this third rock from the sun. I'm starting to feel the story of Genesis though - we are doomed by the power of our own thoughts. I envy animals with small brains who don't have to think about what this life means like we are compelled to do.

OP, the facts of your biology are just that. They are facts about your broken body that will eventually stop working altogether and you will die. That is just how it is, for all of us.

As to your bolded statement, to a point, this is true. Yes, the world is capricious in many regards and there is certainly much misery. Our purpose as humans is to know God through this and in turn to love others as He has loved us. Of course God cares. He cares so much that He sent His son to redeem us. He is constantly reaching out to us, through the Holy Spirit. And you are on the right track with the book of Genesis, which is a wonderful summary of it all. Read it, again. It is the story of God working through mankind as a whole, and us as individuals.

So if God is "working through mankind," what do you believe He working towards? I truly don't get it what people think this "plan" is, or how they can square people living miserable lives as some means to some mysterious and unknowable end.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am (marginally) Catholic. I find it hard to believe that the whole world just appeared from nothing, and that no intelligence was necessary to create it. I converted as an adult but have of late become a spiritual recidivist, backsliding into the agnosticism of my youth and early 20's as I cope with secondary infertility and a child with fairly severe ADHD. I HATE when people say "God has a plan for you." To my ears, it sounds like predeterminism and I firmly do not believe in that. That has never been my conception of God. When people to say this to me, I think they are nuts. That kind of talk sounds like God decided to make me infertile and give me a child with special needs, while the drug addicts and child abusers in my area seem capable of procreating like rabbits based on all of the ads entreating people to foster this growing population of kids. If God is really that involved in our lives, determining what will happen to each of us and when, why the hell would he do this? It defies the intelligence and logic that I believe are a necessary component of creating a world like ours.

So I guess my question is, WHY do people believe in this "God has a plan" stuff? What are they trying to convey when they say it? IME, Catholics will say things like "look to God for strength and guidance," but not "God has a plan." However these days neither camp is working for me. Lately I'm more of the opinion that God exists but is a pure intelligence - a force of biological creation - that is indifferent to the fate of mankind.

OP, you are asking some very intelligent questions here. I am Christian but not Catholic and will provide my POV from that perspective.

First, please understand that when people make statements like this, they are not trying to dismiss your pain. This is just one of those clumsy things that people say when they want to say something to help, but know that no words really can. I know it's grating and hits a horrible hot spot with you, but please try to have a little compassion.

As I'm sure you know, God never promised us a perfect or an easy life. We all have our share of misery, pain and misfortune. What God did promise is that He is with us through those times and that "all things work together" for those that love the Lord and are called according to His purpose. To me, this means that it is actually irrelevant to God if we have no children or fifty - He still calls us to follow Him through Jesus. All of us, and all of our children, are broken in some way -- ADHD or something else. No one gets a pass on the problems of life.

BUT the good news is that these problems, illnesses, hardships, periods of unemployment, depression, addictions, etc etc etc can be used by God to redeem us and to witness His word and His way here on earth. I don't believe that God singled you out for secondary infertility, or your child with ADHD. These things are just factors of life in the less-than-perfect world we live in. But He can use them, and you, for good -- if you will let Him.

This is basically what my friend said. And again, it doesn't sit with me, because I am Type A, and I believe in my own power to get shit done, and I don't want to be "used" by God to make some sort of point about the meaning of the world or life or whatever. I hear what you are saying, and I appreciate it, but as I think more and more about it I just think that the religious notion of God no longer makes any sense to me.

This is your problem right here, at least as it is viewed by Christianity. Great that you are Type A and believe in "your own power to get shit done," but as you may be getting an inkling here, we cannot save ourselves. That is what Christianity is all about. God made you Type A and appreciates that about your personality but it has nothing to do with your salvation.

True. But I'm in the here and now. I'm not focused on my salvation. Maybe I should be, but I'm not. I have too much living to do right now. And worrying about my salvation doesn't answer my question about "God's plan." If God is love and truth and all-knowing and all of that, why make us endure difficult lives and tell us to focus on our death all the time? What does being saved have to do with being infertile despite wanting to be a parent while people who want to shoot heroin all day are allowed to become pregnant? What kind of plan is that? It seems like a pretty effed up plan to me.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I am (marginally) Catholic. I find it hard to believe that the whole world just appeared from nothing, and that no intelligence was necessary to create it. I converted as an adult but have of late become a spiritual recidivist, backsliding into the agnosticism of my youth and early 20's as I cope with secondary infertility and a child with fairly severe ADHD. I HATE when people say "God has a plan for you." To my ears, it sounds like predeterminism and I firmly do not believe in that. That has never been my conception of God. When people to say this to me, I think they are nuts. That kind of talk sounds like God decided to make me infertile and give me a child with special needs, while the drug addicts and child abusers in my area seem capable of procreating like rabbits based on all of the ads entreating people to foster this growing population of kids. If God is really that involved in our lives, determining what will happen to each of us and when, why the hell would he do this? It defies the intelligence and logic that I believe are a necessary component of creating a world like ours.

So I guess my question is, WHY do people believe in this "God has a plan" stuff? What are they trying to convey when they say it? IME, Catholics will say things like "look to God for strength and guidance," but not "God has a plan." However these days neither camp is working for me. Lately I'm more of the opinion that God exists but is a pure intelligence - a force of biological creation - that is indifferent to the fate of mankind.

If God exists, I don't think God is indifferent. I also don't think God sees our hurt and pain in the same way. When a two year old fall down and skins his knee, it feels like the end of the world to him. It's over-whelming to him. To the parent, it is less serious. A parent knows that the skinned knee hurts, but also knows that it is not serious. A parent is willing to console, but isn't going to worry too much about a skinned knee. I think that a lot of the pain that we experience in the material world. We are very over-whelmed by many things, but God knows that those things are transitory or not important.

[Anonymous]

And why does God even need a plan, or even need humans to implement it? He's God-- you'd think if he decided something should be X, he'd just go ahead and Make It So, no need for anything else.

OP, you can't make sense of it because it is nonsensical. You have to be willing to suspend belief in logic (they call that faith) or realize that it's all just a story (they call that atheism). Pick your poison.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

If God exists, I don't think God is indifferent. I also don't think God sees our hurt and pain in the same way. When a two year old fall down and skins his knee, it feels like the end of the world to him. It's over-whelming to him. To the parent, it is less serious. A parent knows that the skinned knee hurts, but also knows that it is not serious. A parent is willing to console, but isn't going to worry too much about a skinned knee. I think that a lot of the pain that we experience in the material world. We are very over-whelmed by many things, but God knows that those things are transitory or not important.

Not OP, but I think analogizing God to a parent is bullshit. Yeah, it's true that I understand my kid's skinned knee isn't that important in the scheme of things, but I also recognize that to my child it is. Therefore, I make my presence known by tangibly comforting him and telling him that it will be ok. I don't stand in a place that I cannot be seen or heard or felt and rely on my kid to figure out for himself that the skinned knee isn't a big deal, maybe by looking at a book I had someone write thousands of years ago. And, I can see infertility being likened to a skinned knee-like (sort of, because it's tough but not the end of the world - I am also an adoptive mom OP so I'm not being flip) but how do you share that skinned knee analogy with a parent whose child was kidnapped, raped and killed?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm a lapsed Catholic and not really a "God has a plan person." That being said, when I hear it, I take it to mean that the situations presented to us help shape who we are and even so-called tragedies can present either opportunities for growth or opportunities to make a contribution. I think about people who have lost children and are able to start charities to find cures for diseases or stop pedophiles or comfort those who experienced similar tragedy.

I see it more as everyone has something to offer regardless of what life hands you. You will have a certain strength and perspective that others don't.

There's also other ways of looking at your situation. Though you may not be able to physically have another child, you could adopt.

How we cope with life's difficulties is an important part of it. I found helping those less fortunate and traveling abroad - particularly to Africa - have helped me escape my past bouts of despair. People there have unimaginable hardship and yet get through the day with a smile.

Coping with ADHD is not easy. You should take care of yourself first so that you can take care of others. Get any help you can within your means. And are you certain about your infertility? I had my first child slightly before 43. Before that I truly thought it wasn't in the cards.

Another good coping strategy is to see what's good and what works in your life.


Does God have a plan? I don't know. But I do think life is a gift.

Thanks, PP. I am certain about my infertility. Both fallopian tubes and about 70% of my uterus is blocked with scarring. Surgery and estrogen did not help. It's over. IVF would be a joke b/c there is a slim chance an embryo could implant anyway (where would it go in that scar infested wasteland?) and even if it did I'd have an extremely high risk of miscarriage. It's pointless. And we are adopting.

And I hear you about other people have it worse. I think about that all the time. And you know what? It really doesn't help. I suppose it should make me feel grateful for what I do have but what it really makes me feel is that the world is a capricious place full of misery and that I don't really see the big metaphysical point of it all. I'm not sure there is a point, or a God that feels/loves/cares. I think we are just here, for reasons we will never really know. And that we just have to do the best we can to survive, like every other animal on this third rock from the sun. I'm starting to feel the story of Genesis though - we are doomed by the power of our own thoughts. I envy animals with small brains who don't have to think about what this life means like we are compelled to do.

OP, the facts of your biology are just that. They are facts about your broken body that will eventually stop working altogether and you will die. That is just how it is, for all of us.

As to your bolded statement, to a point, this is true. Yes, the world is capricious in many regards and there is certainly much misery. Our purpose as humans is to know God through this and in turn to love others as He has loved us. Of course God cares. He cares so much that He sent His son to redeem us. He is constantly reaching out to us, through the Holy Spirit. And you are on the right track with the book of Genesis, which is a wonderful summary of it all. Read it, again. It is the story of God working through mankind as a whole, and us as individuals.

So if God is "working through mankind," what do you believe He working towards? I truly don't get it what people think this "plan" is, or how they can square people living miserable lives as some means to some mysterious and unknowable end.

He is working towards life eternal. The earth will one day die/ disappear/ go away and then we are left with eternity.

People living miserable lives is not a means to this end. It is merely a fact because we live in a broken world, full of sin, in which man has turned away from God. This is not the universe He created -- that was intended for perfection. And that is what eternity can and will be, for those who follow Him.