"God has a plan"

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am (marginally) Catholic. I find it hard to believe that the whole world just appeared from nothing, and that no intelligence was necessary to create it. I converted as an adult but have of late become a spiritual recidivist, backsliding into the agnosticism of my youth and early 20's as I cope with secondary infertility and a child with fairly severe ADHD. I HATE when people say "God has a plan for you." To my ears, it sounds like predeterminism and I firmly do not believe in that. That has never been my conception of God. When people to say this to me, I think they are nuts. That kind of talk sounds like God decided to make me infertile and give me a child with special needs, while the drug addicts and child abusers in my area seem capable of procreating like rabbits based on all of the ads entreating people to foster this growing population of kids. If God is really that involved in our lives, determining what will happen to each of us and when, why the hell would he do this? It defies the intelligence and logic that I believe are a necessary component of creating a world like ours.

So I guess my question is, WHY do people believe in this "God has a plan" stuff? What are they trying to convey when they say it? IME, Catholics will say things like "look to God for strength and guidance," but not "God has a plan." However these days neither camp is working for me. Lately I'm more of the opinion that God exists but is a pure intelligence - a force of biological creation - that is indifferent to the fate of mankind.

If God exists, I don't think God is indifferent. I also don't think God sees our hurt and pain in the same way. When a two year old fall down and skins his knee, it feels like the end of the world to him. It's over-whelming to him. To the parent, it is less serious. A parent knows that the skinned knee hurts, but also knows that it is not serious. A parent is willing to console, but isn't going to worry too much about a skinned knee. I think that a lot of the pain that we experience in the material world. We are very over-whelmed by many things, but God knows that those things are transitory or not important.

Nice rationalization -- and here's another one -- God will eventually reveal his plan to us -- after we die -- as long as we've accepted his son, Jesus Christ, as our savior.

What you said is almost the exact opposite of what I said. You seem very defensive. What's the matter? Did I ping something in you? Get through throough those militant atheist, internet tough guy defenses?

Plenty of Christians don't believe that accepting Jesus as the savior is necessary to get to heaven. Mormons don't. Unitarian Universalists don't. Pope Francis doesn't which suggests that Catholics shouldn't. Some evangelicals with large ministries have taught that nearly everyone, including non-Christians go to heaven.

Just because lots of people believe something doesn't make it true.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:God does not have a plan. Life is in motion, a chain of reactions with no plan.

OP here. That is pretty much what it feels like from the POV of my own life and from observing the world that we live in. I can see there being an intelligence that started the motion in the first place. But to ascribe meaning to specific actions in that chain just isn't ringing true to me.

[Anonymous]

^^I should say ascribing meaning in the context of some holy metaphysical plan.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is what people have to tell themselves to weather bad things, to believe there is some point to their suffering. Personally, I don't buy it either. When people say this to you, you are supposed to accept your infertility as part of some larger, greater scheme and be ok with it. It is supposed to make you feel better, that this isn't random bad luck. Personally, I'd rather believe in random bad luck than that the one being who is supposed to love me and everyone else more than anything allowed/caused some of my bad stuff to happen, but that's just me. I'm sorry things are difficult for you right now.

Thanks, PP. And the bolded is EXACTLY how I feel. If God is love, I'm sure as shit not feeling loved right now. My other favorite is "God doesn't give us more than we can handle." I'm begging to differ at the moment.

Exactly that, and that's the reason I backed away from religion. I haven't read through the whole thread. OP, I wish you all the best.

Thanks. I'm not seeing anything here that speaks to me, to be honest. I think the reality is is that I truly am an agnostic who really wanted to believe. I just don't believe in the God of Christian faith right now. So saying "turn to your faith" or "God has a plan" just rings very hollow to me these days.

I assume this is OP?

I understand that you feel this way and think that most people go through phases like this in their faith journey. You are searching for something much deeper than gratuitous platitudes about God will provide.

But I go back to something that I posted earlier, in response to other glimpses you have given us into your life. You are still trying to "save yourself." You think that there is something that you, as a Type A person, can and should be able to do to figure this out, make it seem reasonable, and embrace on your terms. That is simply not the way that Christianity works. Jesus asked us to give everything up to follow Him, and that includes our dreams and plans for our own lives. That is when we will receive the blessing and gift of faith. It sounds like you're not there yet, which is fine, but I think you need to recognize that.

and some people come out the other side without religious faith. It's happening more and more these days, perhaps because there are more open channels of communication besides reading the bible and conferring with one's pastor.

Maybe you need to recognize that what you call "the gift of faith" is not for everyone.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is what people have to tell themselves to weather bad things, to believe there is some point to their suffering. Personally, I don't buy it either. When people say this to you, you are supposed to accept your infertility as part of some larger, greater scheme and be ok with it. It is supposed to make you feel better, that this isn't random bad luck. Personally, I'd rather believe in random bad luck than that the one being who is supposed to love me and everyone else more than anything allowed/caused some of my bad stuff to happen, but that's just me. I'm sorry things are difficult for you right now.

Thanks, PP. And the bolded is EXACTLY how I feel. If God is love, I'm sure as shit not feeling loved right now. My other favorite is "God doesn't give us more than we can handle." I'm begging to differ at the moment.

Exactly that, and that's the reason I backed away from religion. I haven't read through the whole thread. OP, I wish you all the best.

Thanks. I'm not seeing anything here that speaks to me, to be honest. I think the reality is is that I truly am an agnostic who really wanted to believe. I just don't believe in the God of Christian faith right now. So saying "turn to your faith" or "God has a plan" just rings very hollow to me these days.

I assume this is OP?

I understand that you feel this way and think that most people go through phases like this in their faith journey. You are searching for something much deeper than gratuitous platitudes about God will provide.

But I go back to something that I posted earlier, in response to other glimpses you have given us into your life. You are still trying to "save yourself." You think that there is something that you, as a Type A person, can and should be able to do to figure this out, make it seem reasonable, and embrace on your terms. That is simply not the way that Christianity works. Jesus asked us to give everything up to follow Him, and that includes our dreams and plans for our own lives. That is when we will receive the blessing and gift of faith. It sounds like you're not there yet, which is fine, but I think you need to recognize that.

No, I am not. I am pissed beyond belief. And I still fail to see what the hell eternal salvation has to do with my dreams and plans for my life here on earth. Everything on this earth seems kinda pointless to me at the moment. I firmly do not believe that God made me infertile b/c there is some bastard child out there somewhere waiting to be born who just couldn't make it on this earth without me as a mother. It's a pretty twisted view, as I think about it, because it means some poor soul has to end up pregnant with a child they don't want. It's pretty sick to wish that on someone, and I don't. If an adoption happens for us, great. But I'm not going to wish an unplanned pregnancy on someone just so I can be a mother again. And I can't see how a benevolent and caring God would want that either. I CAN see how an indifferent one (I.E. pure intelligence) couldn't care less and has nothing to do with it either way.

I think I just need to go be a Unitarian Universalist since they don't traffic in platitudes or absolutes or claim to know what is true. I can respect that.

God did not "make you" infertile. You are infertile because of the biological truths that you detailed earlier... scarring on uterine lining, I think you said? God did not plant that there. It happened because your body failed. You've also gotten sick from time to time, I assume, and your body is wrinkling. Your body is designed to fail, to fall a part. It is not perfect nor everlasting.

That God can take your strong desire to parent again and turn it into the blessing of an adoption is a reality. It should be a blessing for all involved -- you, your DH, your current child, the new child, the biological parents. It's not wishing an unplanned pregnancy on someone.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You don't make people that you know are imperfect then punish them for being imperfect with bad lives or hell. This is what I'm trying to say.

But He DID make us perfect. When originally created, Man had it all. Life in the Garden of Eden is a metaphor for that. No pain, no sickness, no suffering, no death -- and free choice to boot.

Free choice to live in caves or be eaten by wild animals until Man figured out how to make tools, unless you believe The Garden of Eden is not just a story and that Adam and Eve were the first humans made by god.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is what people have to tell themselves to weather bad things, to believe there is some point to their suffering. Personally, I don't buy it either. When people say this to you, you are supposed to accept your infertility as part of some larger, greater scheme and be ok with it. It is supposed to make you feel better, that this isn't random bad luck. Personally, I'd rather believe in random bad luck than that the one being who is supposed to love me and everyone else more than anything allowed/caused some of my bad stuff to happen, but that's just me. I'm sorry things are difficult for you right now.

Thanks, PP. And the bolded is EXACTLY how I feel. If God is love, I'm sure as shit not feeling loved right now. My other favorite is "God doesn't give us more than we can handle." I'm begging to differ at the moment.

Exactly that, and that's the reason I backed away from religion. I haven't read through the whole thread. OP, I wish you all the best.

Thanks. I'm not seeing anything here that speaks to me, to be honest. I think the reality is is that I truly am an agnostic who really wanted to believe. I just don't believe in the God of Christian faith right now. So saying "turn to your faith" or "God has a plan" just rings very hollow to me these days.

I assume this is OP?

I understand that you feel this way and think that most people go through phases like this in their faith journey. You are searching for something much deeper than gratuitous platitudes about God will provide.

But I go back to something that I posted earlier, in response to other glimpses you have given us into your life. You are still trying to "save yourself." You think that there is something that you, as a Type A person, can and should be able to do to figure this out, make it seem reasonable, and embrace on your terms. That is simply not the way that Christianity works. Jesus asked us to give everything up to follow Him, and that includes our dreams and plans for our own lives. That is when we will receive the blessing and gift of faith. It sounds like you're not there yet, which is fine, but I think you need to recognize that.

No, I am not. I am pissed beyond belief. And I still fail to see what the hell eternal salvation has to do with my dreams and plans for my life here on earth. Everything on this earth seems kinda pointless to me at the moment. I firmly do not believe that God made me infertile b/c there is some bastard child out there somewhere waiting to be born who just couldn't make it on this earth without me as a mother. It's a pretty twisted view, as I think about it, because it means some poor soul has to end up pregnant with a child they don't want. It's pretty sick to wish that on someone, and I don't. If an adoption happens for us, great. But I'm not going to wish an unplanned pregnancy on someone just so I can be a mother again. And I can't see how a benevolent and caring God would want that either. I CAN see how an indifferent one (I.E. pure intelligence) couldn't care less and has nothing to do with it either way.

I think I just need to go be a Unitarian Universalist since they don't traffic in platitudes or absolutes or claim to know what is true. I can respect that.

God did not "make you" infertile. You are infertile because of the biological truths that you detailed earlier... scarring on uterine lining, I think you said? God did not plant that there. It happened because your body failed. You've also gotten sick from time to time, I assume, and your body is wrinkling. Your body is designed to fail, to fall a part. It is not perfect nor everlasting.

That God can take your strong desire to parent again and turn it into the blessing of an adoption is a reality. It should be a blessing for all involved -- you, your DH, your current child, the new child, the biological parents. It's not wishing an unplanned pregnancy on someone.

As per usual among true believers, God is responsible for the good stuff and not the bad stuff. It's a real talent to be able to think this way. It doesn't come naturally to many people.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You don't make people that you know are imperfect then punish them for being imperfect with bad lives or hell. This is what I'm trying to say.

But He DID make us perfect. When originally created, Man had it all. Life in the Garden of Eden is a metaphor for that. No pain, no sickness, no suffering, no death -- and free choice to boot.

Free choice to live in caves or be eaten by wild animals until Man figured out how to make tools, unless you believe The Garden of Eden is not just a story and that Adam and Eve were the first humans made by god.

I believe that the Adam and Eve story is a metaphor for God's relationship with all of us. We were all created with the intent to be perfect, but we all sin and turn away from God.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is what people have to tell themselves to weather bad things, to believe there is some point to their suffering. Personally, I don't buy it either. When people say this to you, you are supposed to accept your infertility as part of some larger, greater scheme and be ok with it. It is supposed to make you feel better, that this isn't random bad luck. Personally, I'd rather believe in random bad luck than that the one being who is supposed to love me and everyone else more than anything allowed/caused some of my bad stuff to happen, but that's just me. I'm sorry things are difficult for you right now.

Thanks, PP. And the bolded is EXACTLY how I feel. If God is love, I'm sure as shit not feeling loved right now. My other favorite is "God doesn't give us more than we can handle." I'm begging to differ at the moment.

Exactly that, and that's the reason I backed away from religion. I haven't read through the whole thread. OP, I wish you all the best.

Thanks. I'm not seeing anything here that speaks to me, to be honest. I think the reality is is that I truly am an agnostic who really wanted to believe. I just don't believe in the God of Christian faith right now. So saying "turn to your faith" or "God has a plan" just rings very hollow to me these days.

I assume this is OP?

I understand that you feel this way and think that most people go through phases like this in their faith journey. You are searching for something much deeper than gratuitous platitudes about God will provide.

But I go back to something that I posted earlier, in response to other glimpses you have given us into your life. You are still trying to "save yourself." You think that there is something that you, as a Type A person, can and should be able to do to figure this out, make it seem reasonable, and embrace on your terms. That is simply not the way that Christianity works. Jesus asked us to give everything up to follow Him, and that includes our dreams and plans for our own lives. That is when we will receive the blessing and gift of faith. It sounds like you're not there yet, which is fine, but I think you need to recognize that.

No, I am not. I am pissed beyond belief. And I still fail to see what the hell eternal salvation has to do with my dreams and plans for my life here on earth. Everything on this earth seems kinda pointless to me at the moment. I firmly do not believe that God made me infertile b/c there is some bastard child out there somewhere waiting to be born who just couldn't make it on this earth without me as a mother. It's a pretty twisted view, as I think about it, because it means some poor soul has to end up pregnant with a child they don't want. It's pretty sick to wish that on someone, and I don't. If an adoption happens for us, great. But I'm not going to wish an unplanned pregnancy on someone just so I can be a mother again. And I can't see how a benevolent and caring God would want that either. I CAN see how an indifferent one (I.E. pure intelligence) couldn't care less and has nothing to do with it either way.

I think I just need to go be a Unitarian Universalist since they don't traffic in platitudes or absolutes or claim to know what is true. I can respect that.

God did not "make you" infertile. You are infertile because of the biological truths that you detailed earlier... scarring on uterine lining, I think you said? God did not plant that there. It happened because your body failed. You've also gotten sick from time to time, I assume, and your body is wrinkling. Your body is designed to fail, to fall a part. It is not perfect nor everlasting.

That God can take your strong desire to parent again and turn it into the blessing of an adoption is a reality. It should be a blessing for all involved -- you, your DH, your current child, the new child, the biological parents. It's not wishing an unplanned pregnancy on someone.

I believe I said I did not believe God made me infertile, anymore than I believe he gives people unplanned pregnancies so that infertile women can become mothers. God, IMO, is not "doing" anything here. And I am leaning on the side that He is not doing anything because he does not have a plan for nor intervene directly in our lives.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is what people have to tell themselves to weather bad things, to believe there is some point to their suffering. Personally, I don't buy it either. When people say this to you, you are supposed to accept your infertility as part of some larger, greater scheme and be ok with it. It is supposed to make you feel better, that this isn't random bad luck. Personally, I'd rather believe in random bad luck than that the one being who is supposed to love me and everyone else more than anything allowed/caused some of my bad stuff to happen, but that's just me. I'm sorry things are difficult for you right now.

Thanks, PP. And the bolded is EXACTLY how I feel. If God is love, I'm sure as shit not feeling loved right now. My other favorite is "God doesn't give us more than we can handle." I'm begging to differ at the moment.

Exactly that, and that's the reason I backed away from religion. I haven't read through the whole thread. OP, I wish you all the best.

Thanks. I'm not seeing anything here that speaks to me, to be honest. I think the reality is is that I truly am an agnostic who really wanted to believe. I just don't believe in the God of Christian faith right now. So saying "turn to your faith" or "God has a plan" just rings very hollow to me these days.

I assume this is OP?

I understand that you feel this way and think that most people go through phases like this in their faith journey. You are searching for something much deeper than gratuitous platitudes about God will provide.

But I go back to something that I posted earlier, in response to other glimpses you have given us into your life. You are still trying to "save yourself." You think that there is something that you, as a Type A person, can and should be able to do to figure this out, make it seem reasonable, and embrace on your terms. That is simply not the way that Christianity works. Jesus asked us to give everything up to follow Him, and that includes our dreams and plans for our own lives. That is when we will receive the blessing and gift of faith. It sounds like you're not there yet, which is fine, but I think you need to recognize that.

No, I am not. I am pissed beyond belief. And I still fail to see what the hell eternal salvation has to do with my dreams and plans for my life here on earth. Everything on this earth seems kinda pointless to me at the moment. I firmly do not believe that God made me infertile b/c there is some bastard child out there somewhere waiting to be born who just couldn't make it on this earth without me as a mother. It's a pretty twisted view, as I think about it, because it means some poor soul has to end up pregnant with a child they don't want. It's pretty sick to wish that on someone, and I don't. If an adoption happens for us, great. But I'm not going to wish an unplanned pregnancy on someone just so I can be a mother again. And I can't see how a benevolent and caring God would want that either. I CAN see how an indifferent one (I.E. pure intelligence) couldn't care less and has nothing to do with it either way.

I think I just need to go be a Unitarian Universalist since they don't traffic in platitudes or absolutes or claim to know what is true. I can respect that.

God did not "make you" infertile. You are infertile because of the biological truths that you detailed earlier... scarring on uterine lining, I think you said? God did not plant that there. It happened because your body failed. You've also gotten sick from time to time, I assume, and your body is wrinkling. Your body is designed to fail, to fall a part. It is not perfect nor everlasting.

That God can take your strong desire to parent again and turn it into the blessing of an adoption is a reality. It should be a blessing for all involved -- you, your DH, your current child, the new child, the biological parents. It's not wishing an unplanned pregnancy on someone.

As per usual among true believers, God is responsible for the good stuff and not the bad stuff. It's a real talent to be able to think this way. It doesn't come naturally to many people.

OP here. That is exactly my struggle. If I am being asked to believe that God has some "plan" for me, then I have to accept that I am infertile because there is some predestined plan for me to become the mother of a child borne of another woman. I can't make that leap, folks. I really don't think he has anything to do with any of it. I truly believe he is indifferent.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is what people have to tell themselves to weather bad things, to believe there is some point to their suffering. Personally, I don't buy it either. When people say this to you, you are supposed to accept your infertility as part of some larger, greater scheme and be ok with it. It is supposed to make you feel better, that this isn't random bad luck. Personally, I'd rather believe in random bad luck than that the one being who is supposed to love me and everyone else more than anything allowed/caused some of my bad stuff to happen, but that's just me. I'm sorry things are difficult for you right now.

Thanks, PP. And the bolded is EXACTLY how I feel. If God is love, I'm sure as shit not feeling loved right now. My other favorite is "God doesn't give us more than we can handle." I'm begging to differ at the moment.

Exactly that, and that's the reason I backed away from religion. I haven't read through the whole thread. OP, I wish you all the best.

Thanks. I'm not seeing anything here that speaks to me, to be honest. I think the reality is is that I truly am an agnostic who really wanted to believe. I just don't believe in the God of Christian faith right now. So saying "turn to your faith" or "God has a plan" just rings very hollow to me these days.

I assume this is OP?

I understand that you feel this way and think that most people go through phases like this in their faith journey. You are searching for something much deeper than gratuitous platitudes about God will provide.

But I go back to something that I posted earlier, in response to other glimpses you have given us into your life. You are still trying to "save yourself." You think that there is something that you, as a Type A person, can and should be able to do to figure this out, make it seem reasonable, and embrace on your terms. That is simply not the way that Christianity works. Jesus asked us to give everything up to follow Him, and that includes our dreams and plans for our own lives. That is when we will receive the blessing and gift of faith. It sounds like you're not there yet, which is fine, but I think you need to recognize that.

No, I am not. I am pissed beyond belief. And I still fail to see what the hell eternal salvation has to do with my dreams and plans for my life here on earth. Everything on this earth seems kinda pointless to me at the moment. I firmly do not believe that God made me infertile b/c there is some bastard child out there somewhere waiting to be born who just couldn't make it on this earth without me as a mother. It's a pretty twisted view, as I think about it, because it means some poor soul has to end up pregnant with a child they don't want. It's pretty sick to wish that on someone, and I don't. If an adoption happens for us, great. But I'm not going to wish an unplanned pregnancy on someone just so I can be a mother again. And I can't see how a benevolent and caring God would want that either. I CAN see how an indifferent one (I.E. pure intelligence) couldn't care less and has nothing to do with it either way.

I think I just need to go be a Unitarian Universalist since they don't traffic in platitudes or absolutes or claim to know what is true. I can respect that.

God did not "make you" infertile. You are infertile because of the biological truths that you detailed earlier... scarring on uterine lining, I think you said? God did not plant that there. It happened because your body failed. You've also gotten sick from time to time, I assume, and your body is wrinkling. Your body is designed to fail, to fall a part. It is not perfect nor everlasting.

That God can take your strong desire to parent again and turn it into the blessing of an adoption is a reality. It should be a blessing for all involved -- you, your DH, your current child, the new child, the biological parents. It's not wishing an unplanned pregnancy on someone.

I believe I said I did not believe God made me infertile, anymore than I believe he gives people unplanned pregnancies so that infertile women can become mothers. God, IMO, is not "doing" anything here. And I am leaning on the side that He is not doing anything because he does not have a plan for nor intervene directly in our lives.

What, exactly, do you expect Him to "do?" Swoop down and solve all of your problems? Make you pregnant tomorrow? I have a feeling if that happened, you would be happy for X amount of time and then would find something else on which to doubt His existence.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is what people have to tell themselves to weather bad things, to believe there is some point to their suffering. Personally, I don't buy it either. When people say this to you, you are supposed to accept your infertility as part of some larger, greater scheme and be ok with it. It is supposed to make you feel better, that this isn't random bad luck. Personally, I'd rather believe in random bad luck than that the one being who is supposed to love me and everyone else more than anything allowed/caused some of my bad stuff to happen, but that's just me. I'm sorry things are difficult for you right now.

Thanks, PP. And the bolded is EXACTLY how I feel. If God is love, I'm sure as shit not feeling loved right now. My other favorite is "God doesn't give us more than we can handle." I'm begging to differ at the moment.

Exactly that, and that's the reason I backed away from religion. I haven't read through the whole thread. OP, I wish you all the best.

Thanks. I'm not seeing anything here that speaks to me, to be honest. I think the reality is is that I truly am an agnostic who really wanted to believe. I just don't believe in the God of Christian faith right now. So saying "turn to your faith" or "God has a plan" just rings very hollow to me these days.

I assume this is OP?

I understand that you feel this way and think that most people go through phases like this in their faith journey. You are searching for something much deeper than gratuitous platitudes about God will provide.

But I go back to something that I posted earlier, in response to other glimpses you have given us into your life. You are still trying to "save yourself." You think that there is something that you, as a Type A person, can and should be able to do to figure this out, make it seem reasonable, and embrace on your terms. That is simply not the way that Christianity works. Jesus asked us to give everything up to follow Him, and that includes our dreams and plans for our own lives. That is when we will receive the blessing and gift of faith. It sounds like you're not there yet, which is fine, but I think you need to recognize that.

No, I am not. I am pissed beyond belief. And I still fail to see what the hell eternal salvation has to do with my dreams and plans for my life here on earth. Everything on this earth seems kinda pointless to me at the moment. I firmly do not believe that God made me infertile b/c there is some bastard child out there somewhere waiting to be born who just couldn't make it on this earth without me as a mother. It's a pretty twisted view, as I think about it, because it means some poor soul has to end up pregnant with a child they don't want. It's pretty sick to wish that on someone, and I don't. If an adoption happens for us, great. But I'm not going to wish an unplanned pregnancy on someone just so I can be a mother again. And I can't see how a benevolent and caring God would want that either. I CAN see how an indifferent one (I.E. pure intelligence) couldn't care less and has nothing to do with it either way.

I think I just need to go be a Unitarian Universalist since they don't traffic in platitudes or absolutes or claim to know what is true. I can respect that.

God did not "make you" infertile. You are infertile because of the biological truths that you detailed earlier... scarring on uterine lining, I think you said? God did not plant that there. It happened because your body failed. You've also gotten sick from time to time, I assume, and your body is wrinkling. Your body is designed to fail, to fall a part. It is not perfect nor everlasting.

That God can take your strong desire to parent again and turn it into the blessing of an adoption is a reality. It should be a blessing for all involved -- you, your DH, your current child, the new child, the biological parents. It's not wishing an unplanned pregnancy on someone.

As per usual among true believers, God is responsible for the good stuff and not the bad stuff. It's a real talent to be able to think this way. It doesn't come naturally to many people.

OP here. That is exactly my struggle. If I am being asked to believe that God has some "plan" for me, then I have to accept that I am infertile because there is some predestined plan for me to become the mother of a child borne of another woman. I can't make that leap, folks. I really don't think he has anything to do with any of it. I truly believe he is indifferent.

I'm up above agreeing with you that there is no plan. But, even if you believe in a plan, it doesn't have to be the one you laid out. Perhaps the infertility is about planning to give you free time to discvoer the cure for cancer in the future, or perhaps you would have birthed the next hitler so the plan frees all of us from that, or perhaps the you gave birth to would have had a terrible illness keeping him sick for 3 years then killing him and the infertility spares you from that. Not that I believe in the plan but not sure why your vision of it is so narrow. Obviously every infertile person is not able to adopt, so that can't be the plan for all infertile couples.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is what people have to tell themselves to weather bad things, to believe there is some point to their suffering. Personally, I don't buy it either. When people say this to you, you are supposed to accept your infertility as part of some larger, greater scheme and be ok with it. It is supposed to make you feel better, that this isn't random bad luck. Personally, I'd rather believe in random bad luck than that the one being who is supposed to love me and everyone else more than anything allowed/caused some of my bad stuff to happen, but that's just me. I'm sorry things are difficult for you right now.

Thanks, PP. And the bolded is EXACTLY how I feel. If God is love, I'm sure as shit not feeling loved right now. My other favorite is "God doesn't give us more than we can handle." I'm begging to differ at the moment.

Exactly that, and that's the reason I backed away from religion. I haven't read through the whole thread. OP, I wish you all the best.

Thanks. I'm not seeing anything here that speaks to me, to be honest. I think the reality is is that I truly am an agnostic who really wanted to believe. I just don't believe in the God of Christian faith right now. So saying "turn to your faith" or "God has a plan" just rings very hollow to me these days.

I assume this is OP?

I understand that you feel this way and think that most people go through phases like this in their faith journey. You are searching for something much deeper than gratuitous platitudes about God will provide.

But I go back to something that I posted earlier, in response to other glimpses you have given us into your life. You are still trying to "save yourself." You think that there is something that you, as a Type A person, can and should be able to do to figure this out, make it seem reasonable, and embrace on your terms. That is simply not the way that Christianity works. Jesus asked us to give everything up to follow Him, and that includes our dreams and plans for our own lives. That is when we will receive the blessing and gift of faith. It sounds like you're not there yet, which is fine, but I think you need to recognize that.

No, I am not. I am pissed beyond belief. And I still fail to see what the hell eternal salvation has to do with my dreams and plans for my life here on earth. Everything on this earth seems kinda pointless to me at the moment. I firmly do not believe that God made me infertile b/c there is some bastard child out there somewhere waiting to be born who just couldn't make it on this earth without me as a mother. It's a pretty twisted view, as I think about it, because it means some poor soul has to end up pregnant with a child they don't want. It's pretty sick to wish that on someone, and I don't. If an adoption happens for us, great. But I'm not going to wish an unplanned pregnancy on someone just so I can be a mother again. And I can't see how a benevolent and caring God would want that either. I CAN see how an indifferent one (I.E. pure intelligence) couldn't care less and has nothing to do with it either way.

I think I just need to go be a Unitarian Universalist since they don't traffic in platitudes or absolutes or claim to know what is true. I can respect that.

God did not "make you" infertile. You are infertile because of the biological truths that you detailed earlier... scarring on uterine lining, I think you said? God did not plant that there. It happened because your body failed. You've also gotten sick from time to time, I assume, and your body is wrinkling. Your body is designed to fail, to fall a part. It is not perfect nor everlasting.

That God can take your strong desire to parent again and turn it into the blessing of an adoption is a reality. It should be a blessing for all involved -- you, your DH, your current child, the new child, the biological parents. It's not wishing an unplanned pregnancy on someone.

I believe I said I did not believe God made me infertile, anymore than I believe he gives people unplanned pregnancies so that infertile women can become mothers. God, IMO, is not "doing" anything here. And I am leaning on the side that He is not doing anything because he does not have a plan for nor intervene directly in our lives.

What, exactly, do you expect Him to "do?" Swoop down and solve all of your problems? Make you pregnant tomorrow? I have a feeling if that happened, you would be happy for X amount of time and then would find something else on which to doubt His existence.

That's just it - I don't expect him to do anything. Which is why the "God has a plan for you" kind of talk doesn't fly for me.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I am (marginally) Catholic. I find it hard to believe that the whole world just appeared from nothing, and that no intelligence was necessary to create it. I converted as an adult but have of late become a spiritual recidivist, backsliding into the agnosticism of my youth and early 20's as I cope with secondary infertility and a child with fairly severe ADHD. I HATE when people say "God has a plan for you." To my ears, it sounds like predeterminism and I firmly do not believe in that. That has never been my conception of God. When people to say this to me, I think they are nuts. That kind of talk sounds like God decided to make me infertile and give me a child with special needs, while the drug addicts and child abusers in my area seem capable of procreating like rabbits based on all of the ads entreating people to foster this growing population of kids. If God is really that involved in our lives, determining what will happen to each of us and when, why the hell would he do this? It defies the intelligence and logic that I believe are a necessary component of creating a world like ours.

So I guess my question is, WHY do people believe in this "God has a plan" stuff? What are they trying to convey when they say it? IME, Catholics will say things like "look to God for strength and guidance," but not "God has a plan." However these days neither camp is working for me. Lately I'm more of the opinion that God exists but is a pure intelligence - a force of biological creation - that is indifferent to the fate of mankind.

You lost my sympathy there. Parents whose children end up in foster care are suffering a whole lot, and probably questioning why "God's plan" for them is to have a crippling addiction or a history of abuse/neglect that they aren't strong enough to overcome. Also, the foster population isn't growing - there has been significant decline since 2008 (almost 50% in our area). I would suggest that maybe you should foster since you clearly want children and have the ability to care for them, but these kids don't need people disparaging their birth family and identity, so please don't and don't adopt either.

- Foster parent

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is what people have to tell themselves to weather bad things, to believe there is some point to their suffering. Personally, I don't buy it either. When people say this to you, you are supposed to accept your infertility as part of some larger, greater scheme and be ok with it. It is supposed to make you feel better, that this isn't random bad luck. Personally, I'd rather believe in random bad luck than that the one being who is supposed to love me and everyone else more than anything allowed/caused some of my bad stuff to happen, but that's just me. I'm sorry things are difficult for you right now.

Thanks, PP. And the bolded is EXACTLY how I feel. If God is love, I'm sure as shit not feeling loved right now. My other favorite is "God doesn't give us more than we can handle." I'm begging to differ at the moment.

Exactly that, and that's the reason I backed away from religion. I haven't read through the whole thread. OP, I wish you all the best.

Thanks. I'm not seeing anything here that speaks to me, to be honest. I think the reality is is that I truly am an agnostic who really wanted to believe. I just don't believe in the God of Christian faith right now. So saying "turn to your faith" or "God has a plan" just rings very hollow to me these days.

I assume this is OP?

I understand that you feel this way and think that most people go through phases like this in their faith journey. You are searching for something much deeper than gratuitous platitudes about God will provide.

But I go back to something that I posted earlier, in response to other glimpses you have given us into your life. You are still trying to "save yourself." You think that there is something that you, as a Type A person, can and should be able to do to figure this out, make it seem reasonable, and embrace on your terms. That is simply not the way that Christianity works. Jesus asked us to give everything up to follow Him, and that includes our dreams and plans for our own lives. That is when we will receive the blessing and gift of faith. It sounds like you're not there yet, which is fine, but I think you need to recognize that.

No, I am not. I am pissed beyond belief. And I still fail to see what the hell eternal salvation has to do with my dreams and plans for my life here on earth. Everything on this earth seems kinda pointless to me at the moment. I firmly do not believe that God made me infertile b/c there is some bastard child out there somewhere waiting to be born who just couldn't make it on this earth without me as a mother. It's a pretty twisted view, as I think about it, because it means some poor soul has to end up pregnant with a child they don't want. It's pretty sick to wish that on someone, and I don't. If an adoption happens for us, great. But I'm not going to wish an unplanned pregnancy on someone just so I can be a mother again. And I can't see how a benevolent and caring God would want that either. I CAN see how an indifferent one (I.E. pure intelligence) couldn't care less and has nothing to do with it either way.

I think I just need to go be a Unitarian Universalist since they don't traffic in platitudes or absolutes or claim to know what is true. I can respect that.

God did not "make you" infertile. You are infertile because of the biological truths that you detailed earlier... scarring on uterine lining, I think you said? God did not plant that there. It happened because your body failed. You've also gotten sick from time to time, I assume, and your body is wrinkling. Your body is designed to fail, to fall a part. It is not perfect nor everlasting.

That God can take your strong desire to parent again and turn it into the blessing of an adoption is a reality. It should be a blessing for all involved -- you, your DH, your current child, the new child, the biological parents. It's not wishing an unplanned pregnancy on someone.

As per usual among true believers, God is responsible for the good stuff and not the bad stuff. It's a real talent to be able to think this way. It doesn't come naturally to many people.

OP here. That is exactly my struggle. If I am being asked to believe that God has some "plan" for me, then I have to accept that I am infertile because there is some predestined plan for me to become the mother of a child borne of another woman. I can't make that leap, folks. I really don't think he has anything to do with any of it. I truly believe he is indifferent.

I'm up above agreeing with you that there is no plan. But, even if you believe in a plan, it doesn't have to be the one you laid out. Perhaps the infertility is about planning to give you free time to discvoer the cure for cancer in the future, or perhaps you would have birthed the next hitler so the plan frees all of us from that, or perhaps the you gave birth to would have had a terrible illness keeping him sick for 3 years then killing him and the infertility spares you from that. Not that I believe in the plan but not sure why your vision of it is so narrow. Obviously every infertile person is not able to adopt, so that can't be the plan for all infertile couples.

This is the old there's a reason for everything argument. Not sure I buy this one either. Some things happen for no apparent reason at all - or at least, no reason I can make sense of other than that we have free will and some people use it to do shitty things or that biology is complex and incomprehensible or that people are imperfect and make mistakes. If I want to be real precise I am infertile b/c the OB who did the c-section for my only child screwed it up because of his imperfect man brain. Taking the "God has a plan for you" to its logical conclusion means that God decided for me to become pregnant at a specific time so that 9 months later I would go into labor when this specific doctor was on-call and that my baby would be turned the wrong way so his head couldn't get out necessitating a c-section that this specific doctor would botch b/c of whatever plan God had for that doctor. That ideas just doesn't make sense. God is truly the world's best micro-manager if he can orchestrate all of the little interconnected things it would take for circumstances to play out exactly so. And using the old non-religious "everything happens for a reason" argument to its conclusion leads me to the same place. What reason was there for all of these circumstances to converge into this situation for little old cosmically unimportant me?

I assure you I will not be curing cancer, of that much I can assure you.