"God has a plan"

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Wow...you go way back up and cite creation magazine as it that discredits a legitimate quote. I wasn't even sure it was there. But it is. And no I don't read creation magazine. https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Francis_Crick

Well, I don't suffer foolishness & ignorance...it's a waste of my time.

Modern psychology calls this projection -- perhaps the Bible has a name for it too.

This discussion has highlighted how faulty thinking can contribute to religious belief, but it's also become quite psychologically complex and has gone far beyond its original focus. This thinking is not typical of all deeply religious people, many of whom have a simple faith that sustains them.

I wouldn't call this conversation a waste of time, bur rather a conversation that has gone off track and can no longer serve a useful purpose.

When a person ignores factual information, as you did with Crick's beliefs...and with other points...there is no longer a purpose in continuing. Hence my remark about suffering foolishness and ignorance. So what does a person who wants to continue to project...plenty of that on your part throughout the exchange...do when they are confronted with something they can't deal with...ignore...deflect...anything but acknowledge.

Faulty thinking? Well, I believe in God, I guess you don't...now...that being the case then each can believe the other is guilty of faulty beliefs.

You have attempted to declare a gotcha more than once...problem is...with each challenge...your gotcha's...got ya. Make me feel good? Nope...not at all. I prefer a give and take, not attempts at gotchas or declarative statements. For me...I ask to learn, And I share as a part of that learning...and when wrong...knowledge being as important to me as it is...I don't mind admitting it,

BTW...as to learning...my posting on this thread challenging anyone to give me verses in the bible that says...God has a plan...or that our lives are dictated by a plan...was done because I would like to know as I haven't seen that to be the case. Is it a platitude? Or is it real?

"Information is not knowledge."
Albert Einstein

“I was bold in the pursuit of knowledge, never fearing to follow truth and reason to whatever results they led.”
? Thomas Jefferson

Like TJ...I don't fear what I might find in the pursuit of knowledge. Such a pursuit led me to understand that there is no eternal punishment by hell fire.

I wish you a vigorous pursuit of knowledge.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Taking god out of the equation makes everything so much more simple to understand. Some good and bad things happen by chance; some happen based on human intervention. There's no invisible entity to blame or thank and there's no eternal reward for believing in it. That's the hardest part for people to accept and the main reason that belief in god persists.

I agree, you have to contort your thoughts so much to make any god theory fit with the world we live in. I think the idea persists though because people just can't accept that their lives with all its problems, is all their is. We want some sort of reward for being good.

Belief in God is a matter of faith. I don't believe anyone will ever prove or disprove the existence of God. I happen to believe in a loving Creator, but I can understand that some people just don't buy it. It does sound a little crazy, right? But I look at this world and all the craziness that we just accept as the way things are, the lies we accept as truths, and I think- it isn't any crazier to believe in God. It isn't crazier to believe that the purpose of life is to love and serve others because God loves us and calls us to service.

Belief in the afterlife is a matter of faith too -- and a matter of hope that you will never die. I think that is a main reason why so many people manage to continue to believe in God despite all the evidence to the contrary (e.g. God not helping at times we really need him). Another reason is that in our culture, having faith in God is acceptable - even desirable. When educated, well-spoken people talk about their faith, they are taken seriously -- at least outwardly. It's a social convention. If fact, you're not taken seriously unless you have faith in a less and less likely god.

That's changing, however, as fewer people have or keep their faith in unseen, capricious gods. Young people especially are less and less religious, suggesting that in a couple of generations,the action of proudly expressing one's "faith" as if it is desirable to believe in something unseen, will wane.

Do you believe people are continuing to seek out a spiritual life, though? Only without a deity?

Not PP, but yes, pretty much... people are interested in meaning in their life. We are apes that seek meaning and pattern. If you don't believe in God and you don't belive in the Divine Word or such, then you have to construct meaning for yourself. Religion is one way that people seek meaning. Science and art are other ways to seek meaning.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Taking god out of the equation makes everything so much more simple to understand. Some good and bad things happen by chance; some happen based on human intervention. There's no invisible entity to blame or thank and there's no eternal reward for believing in it. That's the hardest part for people to accept and the main reason that belief in god persists.

I agree, you have to contort your thoughts so much to make any god theory fit with the world we live in. I think the idea persists though because people just can't accept that their lives with all its problems, is all their is. We want some sort of reward for being good.

Belief in God is a matter of faith. I don't believe anyone will ever prove or disprove the existence of God. I happen to believe in a loving Creator, but I can understand that some people just don't buy it. It does sound a little crazy, right? But I look at this world and all the craziness that we just accept as the way things are, the lies we accept as truths, and I think- it isn't any crazier to believe in God. It isn't crazier to believe that the purpose of life is to love and serve others because God loves us and calls us to service.

Belief in the afterlife is a matter of faith too -- and a matter of hope that you will never die. I think that is a main reason why so many people manage to continue to believe in God despite all the evidence to the contrary (e.g. God not helping at times we really need him). Another reason is that in our culture, having faith in God is acceptable - even desirable. When educated, well-spoken people talk about their faith, they are taken seriously -- at least outwardly. It's a social convention. If fact, you're not taken seriously unless you have faith in a less and less likely god.

That's changing, however, as fewer people have or keep their faith in unseen, capricious gods. Young people especially are less and less religious, suggesting that in a couple of generations,the action of proudly expressing one's "faith" as if it is desirable to believe in something unseen, will wane.

Do you believe people are continuing to seek out a spiritual life, though? Only without a deity?

Not PP, but yes, pretty much... people are interested in meaning in their life. We are apes that seek meaning and pattern. If you don't believe in God and you don't belive in the Divine Word or such, then you have to construct meaning for yourself. Religion is one way that people seek meaning. Science and art are other ways to seek meaning.

I'd just levee out the "have to" and say "then you naturally construct meaning for yourself. I think it's natural to contract meaning and religion was the way we did it when we had less information about the natural world.

[Anonymous]

Sorry for typos. Meant to say:

I'd just leave out the "have to" and say "then you naturally construct meaning for yourself." I think it's natural to construct meaning, and religion was the way we did it when we had less information about the natural world.

[Anonymous]

OP -- I can relate to your questioning God and any "plan". My first pregnancy -- child suspected of having a significant heart defect. Got this info. around week 23-ish. Hoped for the best, knowing that surgeries would be in order and child would never be a kid who could go to P.E. or run around. Baby arrived. Things looked good. After a week and a half in hospital, she was cleared to go home on a Friday morning. We got a call on Thurs night to come to the hospital. She had arrested and died. The doctors were shocked. Of course, we were too.

We were regular Catholics at the time (born and bred). We believed that good comes to good people. We were told that many people were praying for our child (like international prayer circles). We actually had her baptized in the nic-u with the godparents on the phone (just in case!).

As you can imagine (especially if you have had failed pregnancies) it felt like a really cruel trick to of fate/God to be like "hey, go through 9 mos of pregnancy build up, and then I'm going to lead you RIGHT TO THE EDGE of your anticipation ... and then I'm going to 'take this child back'". To me, it was inconceivable that a god would play such a joke on me/us. It was also inconceivable and against every moral order I had that God would not give this child a chance to have the sun on her face for even one day; for her to never have a quiet night's sleep (it's noisy in the Nic-U)... it just seemed like if God is all about life, then why didn't he answer these prayers and give life to the most deserving of all creatures?

If God couldn't be bothered to help this child, then I can only conclude that God isn't really involved in life on Earth (this ran contrary to all that I had believed previously).

I could live with a God who sort of generally loved humanity and kept a "hands off", but I couldn't live with people telling me "God has a plan" or things like that. What kind of stupid plan would that be? Apparently, I'm the fool in that plan!

Ever since then, I've found it really abrasive when I see people thanking god for the last touchdown or thanking god for helping them win a singing competition or the like. I know I shouldn't be offended, but the idea that god might have helped someone do X when god obviously didn't help my child live and isn't helping the many children who are being hurt or in need of food just doesn't sit right with me.

Fast forward 10+ yrs.... I'm just not into "God" as an actual entity. For me, God is just the mental connection with have to the world -- it is our highest purpose and best self. It is just fate. It is the universe and nature. We are god. I'm becoming more agnostic/atheist all the time... and I'm o.k. with that. It is very comforting to think that the is A PLAN... and that someone is in control of what's happening.... I sometimes wish I could be like that again... but I can't. There is no big plan. We just live and do the best we can while we're here. The end.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP -- I can relate to your questioning God and any "plan". My first pregnancy -- child suspected of having a significant heart defect. Got this info. around week 23-ish. Hoped for the best, knowing that surgeries would be in order and child would never be a kid who could go to P.E. or run around. Baby arrived. Things looked good. After a week and a half in hospital, she was cleared to go home on a Friday morning. We got a call on Thurs night to come to the hospital. She had arrested and died. The doctors were shocked. Of course, we were too.

We were regular Catholics at the time (born and bred). We believed that good comes to good people. We were told that many people were praying for our child (like international prayer circles). We actually had her baptized in the nic-u with the godparents on the phone (just in case!).

As you can imagine (especially if you have had failed pregnancies) it felt like a really cruel trick to of fate/God to be like "hey, go through 9 mos of pregnancy build up, and then I'm going to lead you RIGHT TO THE EDGE of your anticipation ... and then I'm going to 'take this child back'". To me, it was inconceivable that a god would play such a joke on me/us. It was also inconceivable and against every moral order I had that God would not give this child a chance to have the sun on her face for even one day; for her to never have a quiet night's sleep (it's noisy in the Nic-U)... it just seemed like if God is all about life, then why didn't he answer these prayers and give life to the most deserving of all creatures?

If God couldn't be bothered to help this child, then I can only conclude that God isn't really involved in life on Earth (this ran contrary to all that I had believed previously).

I could live with a God who sort of generally loved humanity and kept a "hands off", but I couldn't live with people telling me "God has a plan" or things like that. What kind of stupid plan would that be? Apparently, I'm the fool in that plan!

Ever since then, I've found it really abrasive when I see people thanking god for the last touchdown or thanking god for helping them win a singing competition or the like. I know I shouldn't be offended, but the idea that god might have helped someone do X when god obviously didn't help my child live and isn't helping the many children who are being hurt or in need of food just doesn't sit right with me.

Fast forward 10+ yrs.... I'm just not into "God" as an actual entity. For me, God is just the mental connection with have to the world -- it is our highest purpose and best self. It is just fate. It is the universe and nature. We are god. I'm becoming more agnostic/atheist all the time... and I'm o.k. with that. It is very comforting to think that the is A PLAN... and that someone is in control of what's happening.... I sometimes wish I could be like that again... but I can't. There is no big plan. We just live and do the best we can while we're here. The end.

NP

I have never lost a child but have two family members that have and a couple of close friends. I believe that I cannot begin to know what you went through but they can. What a tragic loss and I wanted to stop and express my condolences. Also want to thank you for sharing your story.

You and I have something in common when it comes to those thanking God as if...I have been able to work it down to a more benign irritation but it still bugs me. I also don't believe we live within the sphere of a plan and I suspect those that do often don't consider what all that means. Your precious daughter's death is an example.

I am a big believer in challenging traditional teaching and never being content to accept certain things as fact. I have to research for myself and continue to be amazed at what I find.