"God has a plan"

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm a lapsed Catholic and not really a "God has a plan person." That being said, when I hear it, I take it to mean that the situations presented to us help shape who we are and even so-called tragedies can present either opportunities for growth or opportunities to make a contribution. I think about people who have lost children and are able to start charities to find cures for diseases or stop pedophiles or comfort those who experienced similar tragedy.

I see it more as everyone has something to offer regardless of what life hands you. You will have a certain strength and perspective that others don't.

There's also other ways of looking at your situation. Though you may not be able to physically have another child, you could adopt.

How we cope with life's difficulties is an important part of it. I found helping those less fortunate and traveling abroad - particularly to Africa - have helped me escape my past bouts of despair. People there have unimaginable hardship and yet get through the day with a smile.

Coping with ADHD is not easy. You should take care of yourself first so that you can take care of others. Get any help you can within your means. And are you certain about your infertility? I had my first child slightly before 43. Before that I truly thought it wasn't in the cards.

Another good coping strategy is to see what's good and what works in your life.


Does God have a plan? I don't know. But I do think life is a gift.

Thanks, PP. I am certain about my infertility. Both fallopian tubes and about 70% of my uterus is blocked with scarring. Surgery and estrogen did not help. It's over. IVF would be a joke b/c there is a slim chance an embryo could implant anyway (where would it go in that scar infested wasteland?) and even if it did I'd have an extremely high risk of miscarriage. It's pointless. And we are adopting.

And I hear you about other people have it worse. I think about that all the time. And you know what? It really doesn't help. I suppose it should make me feel grateful for what I do have but what it really makes me feel is that the world is a capricious place full of misery and that I don't really see the big metaphysical point of it all. I'm not sure there is a point, or a God that feels/loves/cares. I think we are just here, for reasons we will never really know. And that we just have to do the best we can to survive, like every other animal on this third rock from the sun. I'm starting to feel the story of Genesis though - we are doomed by the power of our own thoughts. I envy animals with small brains who don't have to think about what this life means like we are compelled to do.

OP, the facts of your biology are just that. They are facts about your broken body that will eventually stop working altogether and you will die. That is just how it is, for all of us.

As to your bolded statement, to a point, this is true. Yes, the world is capricious in many regards and there is certainly much misery. Our purpose as humans is to know God through this and in turn to love others as He has loved us. Of course God cares. He cares so much that He sent His son to redeem us. He is constantly reaching out to us, through the Holy Spirit. And you are on the right track with the book of Genesis, which is a wonderful summary of it all. Read it, again. It is the story of God working through mankind as a whole, and us as individuals.

So if God is "working through mankind," what do you believe He working towards? I truly don't get it what people think this "plan" is, or how they can square people living miserable lives as some means to some mysterious and unknowable end.

He is working towards life eternal. The earth will one day die/ disappear/ go away and then we are left with eternity.

People living miserable lives is not a means to this end. It is merely a fact because we live in a broken world, full of sin, in which man has turned away from God. This is not the universe He created -- that was intended for perfection. And that is what eternity can and will be, for those who follow Him.

And so what is "eternity" to you?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am (marginally) Catholic. I find it hard to believe that the whole world just appeared from nothing, and that no intelligence was necessary to create it. I converted as an adult but have of late become a spiritual recidivist, backsliding into the agnosticism of my youth and early 20's as I cope with secondary infertility and a child with fairly severe ADHD. I HATE when people say "God has a plan for you." To my ears, it sounds like predeterminism and I firmly do not believe in that. That has never been my conception of God. When people to say this to me, I think they are nuts. That kind of talk sounds like God decided to make me infertile and give me a child with special needs, while the drug addicts and child abusers in my area seem capable of procreating like rabbits based on all of the ads entreating people to foster this growing population of kids. If God is really that involved in our lives, determining what will happen to each of us and when, why the hell would he do this? It defies the intelligence and logic that I believe are a necessary component of creating a world like ours.

So I guess my question is, WHY do people believe in this "God has a plan" stuff? What are they trying to convey when they say it? IME, Catholics will say things like "look to God for strength and guidance," but not "God has a plan." However these days neither camp is working for me. Lately I'm more of the opinion that God exists but is a pure intelligence - a force of biological creation - that is indifferent to the fate of mankind.

OP, you are asking some very intelligent questions here. I am Christian but not Catholic and will provide my POV from that perspective.

First, please understand that when people make statements like this, they are not trying to dismiss your pain. This is just one of those clumsy things that people say when they want to say something to help, but know that no words really can. I know it's grating and hits a horrible hot spot with you, but please try to have a little compassion.

As I'm sure you know, God never promised us a perfect or an easy life. We all have our share of misery, pain and misfortune. What God did promise is that He is with us through those times and that "all things work together" for those that love the Lord and are called according to His purpose. To me, this means that it is actually irrelevant to God if we have no children or fifty - He still calls us to follow Him through Jesus. All of us, and all of our children, are broken in some way -- ADHD or something else. No one gets a pass on the problems of life.

BUT the good news is that these problems, illnesses, hardships, periods of unemployment, depression, addictions, etc etc etc can be used by God to redeem us and to witness His word and His way here on earth. I don't believe that God singled you out for secondary infertility, or your child with ADHD. These things are just factors of life in the less-than-perfect world we live in. But He can use them, and you, for good -- if you will let Him.

This is basically what my friend said. And again, it doesn't sit with me, because I am Type A, and I believe in my own power to get shit done, and I don't want to be "used" by God to make some sort of point about the meaning of the world or life or whatever. I hear what you are saying, and I appreciate it, but as I think more and more about it I just think that the religious notion of God no longer makes any sense to me.

This is your problem right here, at least as it is viewed by Christianity. Great that you are Type A and believe in "your own power to get shit done," but as you may be getting an inkling here, we cannot save ourselves. That is what Christianity is all about. God made you Type A and appreciates that about your personality but it has nothing to do with your salvation.

True. But I'm in the here and now. I'm not focused on my salvation. Maybe I should be, but I'm not. I have too much living to do right now. And worrying about my salvation doesn't answer my question about "God's plan." If God is love and truth and all-knowing and all of that, why make us endure difficult lives and tell us to focus on our death all the time? What does being saved have to do with being infertile despite wanting to be a parent while people who want to shoot heroin all day are allowed to become pregnant? What kind of plan is that? It seems like a pretty effed up plan to me.

Well, that's all very nice that that is your plan, but you have no idea what the future holds. You could be hit by a bus tonight or DXed with cancer tomorrow.

I do not believe that we are put on earth to focus on death. We endure difficult lives because we sin and we make bad choices. That does not explain it all of the time, of course, but it is a large part of the reason that destruction, illness and pain are in the world. I think you are angry because your body failed you; perfectly understandable. But news flash: Your body is going to fail you again and again. It's not meant to last forever. Your soul, however, is.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

He is working towards life eternal. The earth will one day die/ disappear/ go away and then we are left with eternity.

People living miserable lives is not a means to this end. It is merely a fact because we live in a broken world, full of sin, in which man has turned away from God. This is not the universe He created -- that was intended for perfection. And that is what eternity can and will be, for those who follow Him.

But if he created the world one way, and it turned into something else, doesn't that mean he failed? And if, it is actually the failure of humans (Eve, et al), but, since he knows everything, he knew that whole apple thing would happen and still he put it there, knowing she wasn't strong enough to handle it. It just sounds like a set up to me!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm a lapsed Catholic and not really a "God has a plan person." That being said, when I hear it, I take it to mean that the situations presented to us help shape who we are and even so-called tragedies can present either opportunities for growth or opportunities to make a contribution. I think about people who have lost children and are able to start charities to find cures for diseases or stop pedophiles or comfort those who experienced similar tragedy.

I see it more as everyone has something to offer regardless of what life hands you. You will have a certain strength and perspective that others don't.

There's also other ways of looking at your situation. Though you may not be able to physically have another child, you could adopt.

How we cope with life's difficulties is an important part of it. I found helping those less fortunate and traveling abroad - particularly to Africa - have helped me escape my past bouts of despair. People there have unimaginable hardship and yet get through the day with a smile.

Coping with ADHD is not easy. You should take care of yourself first so that you can take care of others. Get any help you can within your means. And are you certain about your infertility? I had my first child slightly before 43. Before that I truly thought it wasn't in the cards.

Another good coping strategy is to see what's good and what works in your life.


Does God have a plan? I don't know. But I do think life is a gift.

Thanks, PP. I am certain about my infertility. Both fallopian tubes and about 70% of my uterus is blocked with scarring. Surgery and estrogen did not help. It's over. IVF would be a joke b/c there is a slim chance an embryo could implant anyway (where would it go in that scar infested wasteland?) and even if it did I'd have an extremely high risk of miscarriage. It's pointless. And we are adopting.

And I hear you about other people have it worse. I think about that all the time. And you know what? It really doesn't help. I suppose it should make me feel grateful for what I do have but what it really makes me feel is that the world is a capricious place full of misery and that I don't really see the big metaphysical point of it all. I'm not sure there is a point, or a God that feels/loves/cares. I think we are just here, for reasons we will never really know. And that we just have to do the best we can to survive, like every other animal on this third rock from the sun. I'm starting to feel the story of Genesis though - we are doomed by the power of our own thoughts. I envy animals with small brains who don't have to think about what this life means like we are compelled to do.

OP, the facts of your biology are just that. They are facts about your broken body that will eventually stop working altogether and you will die. That is just how it is, for all of us.

As to your bolded statement, to a point, this is true. Yes, the world is capricious in many regards and there is certainly much misery. Our purpose as humans is to know God through this and in turn to love others as He has loved us. Of course God cares. He cares so much that He sent His son to redeem us. He is constantly reaching out to us, through the Holy Spirit. And you are on the right track with the book of Genesis, which is a wonderful summary of it all. Read it, again. It is the story of God working through mankind as a whole, and us as individuals.

So if God is "working through mankind," what do you believe He working towards? I truly don't get it what people think this "plan" is, or how they can square people living miserable lives as some means to some mysterious and unknowable end.

He is working towards life eternal. The earth will one day die/ disappear/ go away and then we are left with eternity.

People living miserable lives is not a means to this end. It is merely a fact because we live in a broken world, full of sin, in which man has turned away from God. This is not the universe He created -- that was intended for perfection. And that is what eternity can and will be, for those who follow Him.

And so what is "eternity" to you?

To Christians, eternal life can be thought of as something that we can experience now. Believers don’t have to “wait” for eternal life, because it’s not something that starts when they die. Rather, eternal life begins the moment a person exercises faith in Christ. It is our current possession. John 3:36 says, “Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life.” Note that the believer “has” (present tense) this life (the verb is present tense in the Greek, too). We find similar present-tense constructions in John 5:24 and John 6:47. The focus of eternal life is not on our future, but on our current standing in Christ.

In eternity, time is not measured as we know it now - hours, days, years. It is simply a state of always being and will be forever more.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am (marginally) Catholic. I find it hard to believe that the whole world just appeared from nothing, and that no intelligence was necessary to create it. I converted as an adult but have of late become a spiritual recidivist, backsliding into the agnosticism of my youth and early 20's as I cope with secondary infertility and a child with fairly severe ADHD. I HATE when people say "God has a plan for you." To my ears, it sounds like predeterminism and I firmly do not believe in that. That has never been my conception of God. When people to say this to me, I think they are nuts. That kind of talk sounds like God decided to make me infertile and give me a child with special needs, while the drug addicts and child abusers in my area seem capable of procreating like rabbits based on all of the ads entreating people to foster this growing population of kids. If God is really that involved in our lives, determining what will happen to each of us and when, why the hell would he do this? It defies the intelligence and logic that I believe are a necessary component of creating a world like ours.

So I guess my question is, WHY do people believe in this "God has a plan" stuff? What are they trying to convey when they say it? IME, Catholics will say things like "look to God for strength and guidance," but not "God has a plan." However these days neither camp is working for me. Lately I'm more of the opinion that God exists but is a pure intelligence - a force of biological creation - that is indifferent to the fate of mankind.

OP, you are asking some very intelligent questions here. I am Christian but not Catholic and will provide my POV from that perspective.

First, please understand that when people make statements like this, they are not trying to dismiss your pain. This is just one of those clumsy things that people say when they want to say something to help, but know that no words really can. I know it's grating and hits a horrible hot spot with you, but please try to have a little compassion.

As I'm sure you know, God never promised us a perfect or an easy life. We all have our share of misery, pain and misfortune. What God did promise is that He is with us through those times and that "all things work together" for those that love the Lord and are called according to His purpose. To me, this means that it is actually irrelevant to God if we have no children or fifty - He still calls us to follow Him through Jesus. All of us, and all of our children, are broken in some way -- ADHD or something else. No one gets a pass on the problems of life.

BUT the good news is that these problems, illnesses, hardships, periods of unemployment, depression, addictions, etc etc etc can be used by God to redeem us and to witness His word and His way here on earth. I don't believe that God singled you out for secondary infertility, or your child with ADHD. These things are just factors of life in the less-than-perfect world we live in. But He can use them, and you, for good -- if you will let Him.

This is basically what my friend said. And again, it doesn't sit with me, because I am Type A, and I believe in my own power to get shit done, and I don't want to be "used" by God to make some sort of point about the meaning of the world or life or whatever. I hear what you are saying, and I appreciate it, but as I think more and more about it I just think that the religious notion of God no longer makes any sense to me.

This is your problem right here, at least as it is viewed by Christianity. Great that you are Type A and believe in "your own power to get shit done," but as you may be getting an inkling here, we cannot save ourselves. That is what Christianity is all about. God made you Type A and appreciates that about your personality but it has nothing to do with your salvation.

True. But I'm in the here and now. I'm not focused on my salvation. Maybe I should be, but I'm not. I have too much living to do right now. And worrying about my salvation doesn't answer my question about "God's plan." If God is love and truth and all-knowing and all of that, why make us endure difficult lives and tell us to focus on our death all the time? What does being saved have to do with being infertile despite wanting to be a parent while people who want to shoot heroin all day are allowed to become pregnant? What kind of plan is that? It seems like a pretty effed up plan to me.

There are people who feel incredibly freed once they stop trying to fit everything into some kind of plan from a supposedly caring God. True, they have no supreme being to pray to or to thank when something goes well or to expect everlasting life from, but they gain something too. They gain an appreciation for the here and now and for what they do have and for being born at all -- an incredibly unlikely chance for all of us who have ever been born. Everything seems to make more sense when not seen from the perspective of some divine plan which works for some people sometimes but seems horribly unjust to others.

You are depressed and angry now because "the plan" as it's playing out doesn't make any sense to you. Once you discard the idea of a plan coming from a divine, benevolent force, I predict you will start feeling better.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

He is working towards life eternal. The earth will one day die/ disappear/ go away and then we are left with eternity.

People living miserable lives is not a means to this end. It is merely a fact because we live in a broken world, full of sin, in which man has turned away from God. This is not the universe He created -- that was intended for perfection. And that is what eternity can and will be, for those who follow Him.

But if he created the world one way, and it turned into something else, doesn't that mean he failed? And if, it is actually the failure of humans (Eve, et al), but, since he knows everything, he knew that whole apple thing would happen and still he put it there, knowing she wasn't strong enough to handle it. It just sounds like a set up to me!

No. It means WE failed. We failed as a human race and we fail individually, all the time. Look at it this way: You have your sweet Little One who is "perfect" as a baby. Then one day, she mysteriously morphs into a Terrible Two who talks back to you and rebels. Are you "surprised?"

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am (marginally) Catholic. I find it hard to believe that the whole world just appeared from nothing, and that no intelligence was necessary to create it. I converted as an adult but have of late become a spiritual recidivist, backsliding into the agnosticism of my youth and early 20's as I cope with secondary infertility and a child with fairly severe ADHD. I HATE when people say "God has a plan for you." To my ears, it sounds like predeterminism and I firmly do not believe in that. That has never been my conception of God. When people to say this to me, I think they are nuts. That kind of talk sounds like God decided to make me infertile and give me a child with special needs, while the drug addicts and child abusers in my area seem capable of procreating like rabbits based on all of the ads entreating people to foster this growing population of kids. If God is really that involved in our lives, determining what will happen to each of us and when, why the hell would he do this? It defies the intelligence and logic that I believe are a necessary component of creating a world like ours.

So I guess my question is, WHY do people believe in this "God has a plan" stuff? What are they trying to convey when they say it? IME, Catholics will say things like "look to God for strength and guidance," but not "God has a plan." However these days neither camp is working for me. Lately I'm more of the opinion that God exists but is a pure intelligence - a force of biological creation - that is indifferent to the fate of mankind.

If God exists, I don't think God is indifferent. I also don't think God sees our hurt and pain in the same way. When a two year old fall down and skins his knee, it feels like the end of the world to him. It's over-whelming to him. To the parent, it is less serious. A parent knows that the skinned knee hurts, but also knows that it is not serious. A parent is willing to console, but isn't going to worry too much about a skinned knee. I think that a lot of the pain that we experience in the material world. We are very over-whelmed by many things, but God knows that those things are transitory or not important.

Nice rationalization -- and here's another one -- God will eventually reveal his plan to us -- after we die -- as long as we've accepted his son, Jesus Christ, as our savior.

[Anonymous]

Religion is the opiate of the masses.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am (marginally) Catholic. I find it hard to believe that the whole world just appeared from nothing, and that no intelligence was necessary to create it. I converted as an adult but have of late become a spiritual recidivist, backsliding into the agnosticism of my youth and early 20's as I cope with secondary infertility and a child with fairly severe ADHD. I HATE when people say "God has a plan for you." To my ears, it sounds like predeterminism and I firmly do not believe in that. That has never been my conception of God. When people to say this to me, I think they are nuts. That kind of talk sounds like God decided to make me infertile and give me a child with special needs, while the drug addicts and child abusers in my area seem capable of procreating like rabbits based on all of the ads entreating people to foster this growing population of kids. If God is really that involved in our lives, determining what will happen to each of us and when, why the hell would he do this? It defies the intelligence and logic that I believe are a necessary component of creating a world like ours.

So I guess my question is, WHY do people believe in this "God has a plan" stuff? What are they trying to convey when they say it? IME, Catholics will say things like "look to God for strength and guidance," but not "God has a plan." However these days neither camp is working for me. Lately I'm more of the opinion that God exists but is a pure intelligence - a force of biological creation - that is indifferent to the fate of mankind.

If God exists, I don't think God is indifferent. I also don't think God sees our hurt and pain in the same way. When a two year old fall down and skins his knee, it feels like the end of the world to him. It's over-whelming to him. To the parent, it is less serious. A parent knows that the skinned knee hurts, but also knows that it is not serious. A parent is willing to console, but isn't going to worry too much about a skinned knee. I think that a lot of the pain that we experience in the material world. We are very over-whelmed by many things, but God knows that those things are transitory or not important.

Nice rationalization -- and here's another one -- God will eventually reveal his plan to us -- after we die -- as long as we've accepted his son, Jesus Christ, as our savior.

Well, I don't think we always have to wait until after we die to understand God or His role in our lives. But yes, in order to spend eternity with Him, we must accept and follow Jesus Christ as our savior. He is the only One who can take us to God.

[Anonymous]

You need to get some perspective, for starters. You are presumably married to the love of your life, with a child and another (by adoption) on the way. It may be that the child you adopt will be the best thing that ever happened to you, and you wouldn't imagine life any other way. That would be nice, wouldn't it? There are others whose window for reproducing passed because they never met anyone. There are people laying on their deathbeds with cancer right now who won't live to see their children grow up. Like the pp said, you could be hit by a bus. None of us has a life that works out exactly as we planned. We have to make peace with it. That's where the therapy comes in. I think therapy is far more valuable than any bargaining with god.

I don't believe "god has a plan" and I wish I did because it would make life a lot easier. My mom is a big believer and she said to me once "god has something special planned for you" Umm, if that were the case I'd be flying up above the clouds in a private jet by now. Suffering is suffering, there is no reward for it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm a lapsed Catholic and not really a "God has a plan person." That being said, when I hear it, I take it to mean that the situations presented to us help shape who we are and even so-called tragedies can present either opportunities for growth or opportunities to make a contribution. I think about people who have lost children and are able to start charities to find cures for diseases or stop pedophiles or comfort those who experienced similar tragedy.

I see it more as everyone has something to offer regardless of what life hands you. You will have a certain strength and perspective that others don't.

There's also other ways of looking at your situation. Though you may not be able to physically have another child, you could adopt.

How we cope with life's difficulties is an important part of it. I found helping those less fortunate and traveling abroad - particularly to Africa - have helped me escape my past bouts of despair. People there have unimaginable hardship and yet get through the day with a smile.

Coping with ADHD is not easy. You should take care of yourself first so that you can take care of others. Get any help you can within your means. And are you certain about your infertility? I had my first child slightly before 43. Before that I truly thought it wasn't in the cards.

Another good coping strategy is to see what's good and what works in your life.


Does God have a plan? I don't know. But I do think life is a gift.

Thanks, PP. I am certain about my infertility. Both fallopian tubes and about 70% of my uterus is blocked with scarring. Surgery and estrogen did not help. It's over. IVF would be a joke b/c there is a slim chance an embryo could implant anyway (where would it go in that scar infested wasteland?) and even if it did I'd have an extremely high risk of miscarriage. It's pointless. And we are adopting.

And I hear you about other people have it worse. I think about that all the time. And you know what? It really doesn't help. I suppose it should make me feel grateful for what I do have but what it really makes me feel is that the world is a capricious place full of misery and that I don't really see the big metaphysical point of it all. I'm not sure there is a point, or a God that feels/loves/cares. I think we are just here, for reasons we will never really know. And that we just have to do the best we can to survive, like every other animal on this third rock from the sun. I'm starting to feel the story of Genesis though - we are doomed by the power of our own thoughts. I envy animals with small brains who don't have to think about what this life means like we are compelled to do.

OP, the facts of your biology are just that. They are facts about your broken body that will eventually stop working altogether and you will die. That is just how it is, for all of us.

As to your bolded statement, to a point, this is true. Yes, the world is capricious in many regards and there is certainly much misery. Our purpose as humans is to know God through this and in turn to love others as He has loved us. Of course God cares. He cares so much that He sent His son to redeem us. He is constantly reaching out to us, through the Holy Spirit. And you are on the right track with the book of Genesis, which is a wonderful summary of it all. Read it, again. It is the story of God working through mankind as a whole, and us as individuals.

So if God is "working through mankind," what do you believe He working towards? I truly don't get it what people think this "plan" is, or how they can square people living miserable lives as some means to some mysterious and unknowable end.

He is working towards life eternal. The earth will one day die/ disappear/ go away and then we are left with eternity.

People living miserable lives is not a means to this end. It is merely a fact because we live in a broken world, full of sin, in which man has turned away from God. This is not the universe He created -- that was intended for perfection. And that is what eternity can and will be, for those who follow Him.

Sorry, if there is a god, then this IS the world he made - for whatever reasons he had (if God even needs reasons)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

He is working towards life eternal. The earth will one day die/ disappear/ go away and then we are left with eternity.

People living miserable lives is not a means to this end. It is merely a fact because we live in a broken world, full of sin, in which man has turned away from God. This is not the universe He created -- that was intended for perfection. And that is what eternity can and will be, for those who follow Him.

But if he created the world one way, and it turned into something else, doesn't that mean he failed? And if, it is actually the failure of humans (Eve, et al), but, since he knows everything, he knew that whole apple thing would happen and still he put it there, knowing she wasn't strong enough to handle it. It just sounds like a set up to me!

No. It means WE failed. We failed as a human race and we fail individually, all the time. Look at it this way: You have your sweet Little One who is "perfect" as a baby. Then one day, she mysteriously morphs into a Terrible Two who talks back to you and rebels. Are you "surprised?"

I'm not surprised, and also don't heap any sort of horrible punishment (eternal damnation) for it. That is my point precisely.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

He is working towards life eternal. The earth will one day die/ disappear/ go away and then we are left with eternity.

People living miserable lives is not a means to this end. It is merely a fact because we live in a broken world, full of sin, in which man has turned away from God. This is not the universe He created -- that was intended for perfection. And that is what eternity can and will be, for those who follow Him.

But if he created the world one way, and it turned into something else, doesn't that mean he failed? And if, it is actually the failure of humans (Eve, et al), but, since he knows everything, he knew that whole apple thing would happen and still he put it there, knowing she wasn't strong enough to handle it. It just sounds like a set up to me!

No. It means WE failed. We failed as a human race and we fail individually, all the time. Look at it this way: You have your sweet Little One who is "perfect" as a baby. Then one day, she mysteriously morphs into a Terrible Two who talks back to you and rebels. Are you "surprised?"

People with strong faith in God see God as right and people as failing. When things are right, it's a blessing from God. When things go wrong, it's your own fault and/or part of God's plan. It doesn't make sense to some people, but it simplifies things for people with the gift of faith.

[Anonymous]

You don't make people that you know are imperfect then punish them for being imperfect with bad lives or hell. This is what I'm trying to say.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is what people have to tell themselves to weather bad things, to believe there is some point to their suffering. Personally, I don't buy it either. When people say this to you, you are supposed to accept your infertility as part of some larger, greater scheme and be ok with it. It is supposed to make you feel better, that this isn't random bad luck. Personally, I'd rather believe in random bad luck than that the one being who is supposed to love me and everyone else more than anything allowed/caused some of my bad stuff to happen, but that's just me. I'm sorry things are difficult for you right now.

Thanks, PP. And the bolded is EXACTLY how I feel. If God is love, I'm sure as shit not feeling loved right now. My other favorite is "God doesn't give us more than we can handle." I'm begging to differ at the moment.

Exactly that, and that's the reason I backed away from religion. I haven't read through the whole thread. OP, I wish you all the best.