Do you think having sex on the same bed while 13mo child is sleeping consider child abused?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm also a mandated reporter, for the county I live in as well as the county north of where I live. I don't think either of the hotlines I call would end up taking a formal report for this. I'm not saying it's not "weird", hey I couldn't even get in the mood with my dog in the room, but that doesn't mean it's illegal.

"indecent exposure of the genitals to a child"

To the PPs who believe that having sex in the same bed/room as your child (not to mention, while the child is sleeping) qualifies as "indecent exposure of the genitals to a child"- does this mean you also believe it's CSA to walk around the home naked (even if just to walk from the bathroom to the bedroom)? or bathe with a child? I'm honestly wondering, not trying to imply anything.

"displaying pornography to a child"

Wondering, does anyone believe having live sex in front of a child constitutes "displaying porn to a child"? Again, I think I'd feel uncomfortable but I don't believe it's abuse nor do I believe the county would make a report or actively investigate this. This topic came up because of co-sleeping, correct? We're not talking about a couple who built a stage in their living room to have sex on with their kids as the audience.

What is the difference in children watching adults have sex live in front of them and watching adults have sex on TV?

I think a hotline is probably going to look at the overall situation. They might be concerned about parents in a living space so small that there are not enough sleeping areas for everyone to have a private space. They might be concerned about parents cosleeping at all. I think the hotline would be concerned about the story where a woman has incestual sex while her older children watch TV in the same room. But I don't think that they will be as concerned about a couple having sex in the same room as their child, or even the same bed as their sleeping child.

Also, for what it's worth, in order to display genitals OR pornography to a child, the child has to actually be awake. The poster who related the original story states pretty clearly that her child was asleep at the time. I've fooled around with my husband when we all shared a bed on vacation. We didn't have sex, but that was primary because it's pretty hard to get in the mood when your baby is snoring next to you. Was the making out sex abuse too, PPs?

Correct, the hotline will look at the overall situation and usually has the ability to search the database to see if the family has had any formal reports taken and/or investigated.

Keep in mind, the last dozen calls I've made were to do with flat out CSA between parent or sibling and a child (child told me), suspected child sex trafficking, and parents doing drugs with their young children (and by with I don't mean in the same area, I mean doing drugs while their child also does the drug). If I called because of a middle class family (not that this SHOULD have anything to do with it but in the neighborhood I live in, it does) TTC while their infant/toddler peacefully sleeps in the bed next to them, the operator would probably laugh or at least think I was an idiot.

Just because worse things happen doesn't make it right.

Several people have posted that they aren't as shocked or horrified as you are. Several people have said that while they wouldn't do it and don't really understand how a person could find that romantic, they do not find it to be sexual abuse.

Look, sexual abuse is real. I work with traumatized kids and it is absolutely heartbreaking. But you need to put things in perspective. The parent who posted on the other thread (and this one) is not a predator. She and her husband are not involving their child in their sex life. They maybe should go in the other room, but I do not find anything dangerous or predatory about what was described. People who take definitions on Wikipedia, of all places, literally in the way that many on this thread are doing minimize the dangerous actual abuse that happens to children every day.

That said, if what you're really after is to sit around and pat yourself on the back about what a perfect virtuous person you are, and how other people's sliding scale of evil is beneath you, that's entirely up to you. I don't think it does anything for child abuse victims, though.

I just want to point out that there are at least two people posting here (myself and this PP) who seem to work in the field of child abuse/traumatized children. I am the one who posted about the last dozen calls I've made and said the operator would laugh at me if I called about a couple TTC in the same bed as their sleeping infant.

I'm pointing this out because we both seem to agree that this is not considered abuse. The fact that some of you feel "icky" about this is understandable, maybe you just don't understand what ABUSE means, you grew up with a relatively privileged mentality (as I did) and never really experienced abuse. However, I know what abuse is and what it is not. When it comes to CPS and the law, this is not abuse and would not be investigated. Alternately, I wonder if some of the people here who believe it is abuse have been sexually abused/assaulted themselves...seriously not trying to cross the line here, I'm just trying to figure out what's going on...and are hypersensitive when it comes to CSA. Please do not take offense to my post if this is the case.

I'm really not getting the 'there are worse things, so this can't be abuse' mentality.

Are you trying to say that you work in the field of child endangerment, yet make the ENORMOUS leap to think that because someone thinks this situation constitutes abuse, they've been abused themselves?

I'm the other mandated reporter PP. I don't think that's what my (possible) colleague was saying at all. I think her point was that some PPs on this thread seem hypersensitive about child abuse such that they would equate this action of parents who do not demonstrate any other abusive behaviors as "child sexual abuse".

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

I'm really not getting the 'there are worse things, so this can't be abuse' mentality.

Are you trying to say that you work in the field of child endangerment, yet make the ENORMOUS leap to think that because someone thinks this situation constitutes abuse, they've been abused themselves?

It's about the HARM DONE. They are saying that this causes so little harm, even in a worst-case scenario, that it doesn't rise to the level of "something must be done to protect the children." And the one PP said that she wonders if people who think this is a large amount of harm have a perspective altered by victimization.

[Anonymous]

Same bed crosses a line, IMO, but in the same room, while not ideal, isn't anything phone CPS over. Plenty of families living in a single bedroom around the world manage to have multiple children and I wouldn't consider all those parents to have committed child abuse.

[Anonymous]

I have pretty vanilla sex, so I don't see a problem. If kid wakes up we would pause and get baby back to sleep. All this said, we haven't had sex even in same room with kids. But I don't think it is anywhere close to abuse.

I also believe that kids are sexual (I remember my sexual thoughts as young as 5 - no Freudian latent period for me) and protecting them from any participation in adult sexuality (because they can't consent and the power differential is huge) is different than protecting them from sexual knowledge. In fact, I am pretty sure that I was pedophile safe BECAUSE my parents were hippies and very comfortable with us knowing all about sex - no censorship at all.

I also, probably not coincidentally, had sex for the first time much later than my peers (22).

[Anonymous]

As a child, I walked in on my parents having sex a few times. Even while I was in college, home on break, I mis-heard a "wait a minute" as a muffled "come in" and again, I caught my parents in the deed. This is just so not a big deal. I mean they're married and have multiple children - clearly they have sex. It's not something I need to think about or get reminders of, but it is far from traumatizing to catch a glimpse of it. I just shut the door and hurried off. No biggie. You people should lighten up!

[Anonymous]

No.

Geez, go focus on the actual abuse and neglect in the world.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:"Forms of CSA include asking or pressuring a child to engage in sexual activities (regardless of the outcome), indecent exposure of the genitals to a child, [\b] displaying pornography to a child, actual sexual contact with a child, physical contact with the child's genitals, viewing of the child's genitalia without physical contact, or using a child to produce child pornography."

I think having sex in front of a child qualifies as [b]indecent exposure.

This. NO matter what age.

They have to be awake to see it, no?

I vote weird but not abusive.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I have pretty vanilla sex, so I don't see a problem. If kid wakes up we would pause and get baby back to sleep. All this said, we haven't had sex even in same room with kids. But I don't think it is anywhere close to abuse.

I also believe that kids are sexual (I remember my sexual thoughts as young as 5 - no Freudian latent period for me) and protecting them from any participation in adult sexuality (because they can't consent and the power differential is huge) is different than protecting them from sexual knowledge. In fact, I am pretty sure that I was pedophile safe BECAUSE my parents were hippies and very comfortable with us knowing all about sex - no censorship at all.

I also, probably not coincidentally, had sex for the first time much later than my peers (22).

Maybe you were pedophile safe for other reasons, but CSA happens to hippie parents' kids as well. Half of the women I met in a survivors group grew up in families where there was no shame about sex. It was all seen as very natural and good. So natural and good that many felt their abuse was unremarkable until they found out that not everyone had a family member or family friend doing that to them.

I wasn't a hippie kid, but my scientist mother made sure I knew the correct terms and mechanics from an early age. Still didn't protect me from a pedophile relative by marriage.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm also a mandated reporter, for the county I live in as well as the county north of where I live. I don't think either of the hotlines I call would end up taking a formal report for this. I'm not saying it's not "weird", hey I couldn't even get in the mood with my dog in the room, but that doesn't mean it's illegal.

"indecent exposure of the genitals to a child"

To the PPs who believe that having sex in the same bed/room as your child (not to mention, while the child is sleeping) qualifies as "indecent exposure of the genitals to a child"- does this mean you also believe it's CSA to walk around the home naked (even if just to walk from the bathroom to the bedroom)? or bathe with a child? I'm honestly wondering, not trying to imply anything.

"displaying pornography to a child"

Wondering, does anyone believe having live sex in front of a child constitutes "displaying porn to a child"? Again, I think I'd feel uncomfortable but I don't believe it's abuse nor do I believe the county would make a report or actively investigate this. This topic came up because of co-sleeping, correct? We're not talking about a couple who built a stage in their living room to have sex on with their kids as the audience.

What is the difference in children watching adults have sex live in front of them and watching adults have sex on TV?

I think a hotline is probably going to look at the overall situation. They might be concerned about parents in a living space so small that there are not enough sleeping areas for everyone to have a private space. They might be concerned about parents cosleeping at all. I think the hotline would be concerned about the story where a woman has incestual sex while her older children watch TV in the same room. But I don't think that they will be as concerned about a couple having sex in the same room as their child, or even the same bed as their sleeping child.

Also, for what it's worth, in order to display genitals OR pornography to a child, the child has to actually be awake. The poster who related the original story states pretty clearly that her child was asleep at the time. I've fooled around with my husband when we all shared a bed on vacation. We didn't have sex, but that was primary because it's pretty hard to get in the mood when your baby is snoring next to you. Was the making out sex abuse too, PPs?

Correct, the hotline will look at the overall situation and usually has the ability to search the database to see if the family has had any formal reports taken and/or investigated.

Keep in mind, the last dozen calls I've made were to do with flat out CSA between parent or sibling and a child (child told me), suspected child sex trafficking, and parents doing drugs with their young children (and by with I don't mean in the same area, I mean doing drugs while their child also does the drug). If I called because of a middle class family (not that this SHOULD have anything to do with it but in the neighborhood I live in, it does) TTC while their infant/toddler peacefully sleeps in the bed next to them, the operator would probably laugh or at least think I was an idiot.

Just because worse things happen doesn't make it right.

Several people have posted that they aren't as shocked or horrified as you are. Several people have said that while they wouldn't do it and don't really understand how a person could find that romantic, they do not find it to be sexual abuse.

Look, sexual abuse is real. I work with traumatized kids and it is absolutely heartbreaking. But you need to put things in perspective. The parent who posted on the other thread (and this one) is not a predator. She and her husband are not involving their child in their sex life. They maybe should go in the other room, but I do not find anything dangerous or predatory about what was described. People who take definitions on Wikipedia, of all places, literally in the way that many on this thread are doing minimize the dangerous actual abuse that happens to children every day.

That said, if what you're really after is to sit around and pat yourself on the back about what a perfect virtuous person you are, and how other people's sliding scale of evil is beneath you, that's entirely up to you. I don't think it does anything for child abuse victims, though.

I just want to point out that there are at least two people posting here (myself and this PP) who seem to work in the field of child abuse/traumatized children. I am the one who posted about the last dozen calls I've made and said the operator would laugh at me if I called about a couple TTC in the same bed as their sleeping infant.

I'm pointing this out because we both seem to agree that this is not considered abuse. The fact that some of you feel "icky" about this is understandable, maybe you just don't understand what ABUSE means, you grew up with a relatively privileged mentality (as I did) and never really experienced abuse. However, I know what abuse is and what it is not. When it comes to CPS and the law, this is not abuse and would not be investigated. Alternately, I wonder if some of the people here who believe it is abuse have been sexually abused/assaulted themselves...seriously not trying to cross the line here, I'm just trying to figure out what's going on...and are hypersensitive when it comes to CSA. Please do not take offense to my post if this is the case.

I'm really not getting the 'there are worse things, so this can't be abuse' mentality.

Are you trying to say that you work in the field of child endangerment, yet make the ENORMOUS leap to think that because someone thinks this situation constitutes abuse, they've been abused themselves?

I'm the other mandated reporter PP. I don't think that's what my (possible) colleague was saying at all. I think her point was that some PPs on this thread seem hypersensitive about child abuse such that they would equate this action of parents who do not demonstrate any other abusive behaviors as "child sexual abuse".

Other mandated reporter PP, thanks you, from the OTHER mandated reporter PP (lol). I'll call myself "the one who lives out of state".

Anyway, I wasn't trying to imply that everyone who thinks having sex while baby sleeps in the same bed must have been abused. Rather, it's possible that people who are overly sensitive to this could have been abused themselves and are thus, sensitive to children being abused. Not necessarily a bad thing, just a possibility.

"I'm really not getting the 'there are worse things, so this can't be abuse' mentality."

It's really less of a "there are worse things, so this isn't abuse" mentality and more of a "what is actual abuse, what is harming the child to the point that it is considered abuse" mentality. This is something child welfare social workers, and others who work in similar fields, continuously struggle with. This thread is proof that it's complicated. Besides TTC while infant sleeps near by, I've struggled with - is it abuse to force your child to abstain from all drinks, even water, and food all day long because of your religion? similarly, is a complete vegan diet for a toddler considered abuse? what about not vaccinating? taking your kids out shopping in the middle of the night? These are not usually considered abuse unless they are resulting in some kind of negative outcome. If the child is loosing weight and sick, then yes, fasting could be considered abuse/neglect. Same with the vegan diet. Are the kids missing school and/or getting sick from lack of sleep because they are shopping at Walmart in the middle of the night? If so, this COULD be considered abuse/neglect. But on their own, these things are not considered abuse. So, is the 13mo waking too much throughout the night because of her parents' sex thus getting sick, unable to function during the day, seems traumatized? If there are negative outcomes from the 13mo seeing (or just sleeping near by) her parents have sex then I would consider the possibility of abuse (more likely neglect) but definitely not CSA.

[Anonymous]

BWAHAHAHAHAH call CPS on us. We walk naked around the house all day long.

[Anonymous]

Young children very often obviously misinterpret what they are seeing (if they wake up) and think mommy is being hurt. I've had many adults and children in therapy due to inappropriate exposure early in life. Why chance it?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Young children very often obviously misinterpret what they are seeing (if they wake up) and think mommy is being hurt. I've had many adults and children in therapy due to inappropriate exposure early in life. Why chance it?

Oh, please. How many because they woke up and saw something before they were 3-4 years old and capable of forming persistent memories?

We're talking about co-sleeping with infants, not having your 10 year old in bed with you.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:BWAHAHAHAHAH call CPS on us. We walk naked around the house all day long.

why? just curious. do you cook naked?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Get real people. Before you all had 6000sf homes, generations have been living in one room huts. Parents have been fucking in front of sleeping kids for ages.

+1000

What did you think happened in cave man days?

We have had sex a couple of times when ours was little. She slept through it, no problem.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:BWAHAHAHAHAH call CPS on us. We walk naked around the house all day long.

why? just curious. do you cook naked?

Not the PP, but cooking naked invites painful splatter.