What is the desired outcome?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I feel so bad for their kids, being treated like glitter sparkle achievement ponies so the parents get some bragging rights. Let's just be honest about it. College admissions has become all about the parents, not their kids. The problem is that the kids figure it out eventually, if they haven't already. Then they collapse into a puddle of goo.

Not sure if its just the parent in this particular case. The way she talked about it seemed like her kid was equally upset about getting denied in ED1 and ED2 and now dealing with the fact that if nothing changes on Ivy Day then their achievement will only be acceptance to UVA.

Only?

WTF?!?!?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The problem is kids sacrifice so much that had they known that they could sacrifice much less and enjoy their high school experience and have a similar or comparable college outcome. I think they would do it differently.

Grinding away to get into a top school and then to end up at your Flagship can feel disappointing when you would’ve gotten into the Flagship with 50% of the effort.

This. It doesn’t mean the kid falls apart if the state flagship is where he ends up, but it is not where the kid wanted and - as said above - could have likely been achieved with much less effort over many years.

This is how my kids felt about uva even though it’s a great school. It’s not uva they didn’t want, they didn’t want that to be the result of their effort or they would have modified their effort.

Again, had they “modified their effort” they wouldn’t have gotten in.

I don’t think that’s really true. There is a different level of working commitment needed to be in the running for a top 10 school versus UVA. You can still be well academically without having to kill yourself on the research and extracurricular funds in creating worldwide impact. And still get into UVA. I say this is someone from out of state. The kids from our private who get into UVA and end up there do not have other top tier options.
Same for Michigan.

Since this is anonymous I will just say this frankly. The sub-set of kids that are very smart, popular, non-geeky, social, and sporty choose Michigan or UVA over “top tier” options due to fit. They want top academics, Greek life, parties, huge sports events in a fun college town. That just isn’t happening at most top schools these days. People say Duke or Northwestern are still like this, but that is not we are hearing from kids that currently attend.

They aren’t “choosing” uva over a top tier school, they are either applying there (to go with a safer top choice rather than risking throwing away an ed at a highly rejective school) OR were rejected from a better ranked school (and still not choosing uva).

It’s a great school, but the kids who worked really hard in HS often want the chance at a better ranked school, esp if cost is not a factor.

Not choosing to apply is, in fact, choosing. Your premise is that they are only applying to UVA or Michigan because it is safer or they couldn’t get into anything better. The arrogance is insane here. Some kids PREFER a large state school. Smart kids that have just as much of a chance at an Ivy as the kids getting into Ivies.

My DC's counselor encouraged him to apply to an ivy, but he declined. He wanted to go to UM because he's been obsessed with college football and tracking statistics since he was in elementary school. His notebooks turned into massive spreadsheets. Only applied to football heavy schools.

[Anonymous]

Enjoy the process, people. And encourage your kids to do the same.

College admissions is unpredictable - especially for schools that are highly selective (rejective).

Targets are called “targets” and not “safeties” for reason. Same for reach schools. An 18% acceptance rate seems promising compared to a 7% acceptance rate … but it’s not actually high. There’s a TON of rejection and disappointment baked in to the process.

It’s called “assuming the risk” of disappointment - and it’s part of life, for kids and adults, alike. This is a CHOICE. And to me, experiencing it first-hand is part of the “point” of the process.

For a teen to learn that they can always control their part (how high to aim, how much time and effort to invest along the way) but not the outcome is a HUGE learning opportunity. Sometimes all the effort pays off (achieving their goal) sometimes it doesn’t. Sometimes, in retrospect, we realize it wasn’t worth the effort after all - either because it didn’t pay off or because it didn’t actually matter that much to us in the end (the “good enough” outcome turned out to be plenty good.)

When it comes to college admissions, we need to be clear with our kids - hard work and sacrifice do not guarantee admission to highly selective (rejective) schools. If all that leads to the type of achievement colleges value, yes, it increases the odds! But there’s just no certainty to be had. And certainly no entitlement - no matter how hard a kid works and how much they’ve achieved. The odds are not in favor of acceptance.

To me, this is the point: Understanding a situation, being intentional about which risks to take, experiencing and surviving disappointment, reflecting and learning from it, and finally, moving forward with an open mind and positive outlook.

Embrace the process and do what you can to learn and grow along the way.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Enjoy the process, people. And encourage your kids to do the same.

College admissions is unpredictable - especially for schools that are highly selective (rejective).

Targets are called “targets” and not “safeties” for reason. Same for reach schools. An 18% acceptance rate seems promising compared to a 7% acceptance rate … but it’s not actually high. There’s a TON of rejection and disappointment baked in to the process.

It’s called “assuming the risk” of disappointment - and it’s part of life, for kids and adults, alike. This is a CHOICE. And to me, experiencing it first-hand is part of the “point” of the process.

For a teen to learn that they can always control their part (how high to aim, how much time and effort to invest along the way) but not the outcome is a HUGE learning opportunity. Sometimes all the effort pays off (achieving their goal) sometimes it doesn’t. Sometimes, in retrospect, we realize it wasn’t worth the effort after all - either because it didn’t pay off or because it didn’t actually matter that much to us in the end (the “good enough” outcome turned out to be plenty good.)

When it comes to college admissions, we need to be clear with our kids - hard work and sacrifice do not guarantee admission to highly selective (rejective) schools. If all that leads to the type of achievement colleges value, yes, it increases the odds! But there’s just no certainty to be had. And certainly no entitlement - no matter how hard a kid works and how much they’ve achieved. The odds are not in favor of acceptance.

To me, this is the point: Understanding a situation, being intentional about which risks to take, experiencing and surviving disappointment, reflecting and learning from it, and finally, moving forward with an open mind and positive outlook.

Embrace the process and do what you can to learn and grow along the way.

You are right but...

Many educated parents are already aware of this. Unfortunately knowing it is one thing but explaining why is another. There is unfairness. It discourages people from even trying and leaves them feeling bitter. If you have a talented or really smart child, it’s difficult to accept that someone else can gain an advantage simply because of money or cheating. That kind of system sends the wrong message. It’s especially frustrating for families who follow the rules, yet see others succeed through backdoor opportunities.

[Anonymous]

Our goal was strong program for intended major, campus vibe that DC likes, our ability to pay for it. We have never chased prestige, though the school DC decided on is highly regarded for their intended major.

[Anonymous]

Unfortunately teenagers are susceptible to peer pressure. So a kid can be pretty happy with an outcome, until someone in his peers with lower grades/scores got into a higher-ranking college!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The problem is kids sacrifice so much that had they known that they could sacrifice much less and enjoy their high school experience and have a similar or comparable college outcome. I think they would do it differently.

Grinding away to get into a top school and then to end up at your Flagship can feel disappointing when you would’ve gotten into the Flagship with 50% of the effort.

Depending on which state you’re in just getting into the state flagship or other state schools several spots lower may require this same degree of grinding, with still lottery like chances of getting in (California in particular with UC Berkeley, UCLA, even UC Irvine and San Diego)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The problem is kids sacrifice so much that had they known that they could sacrifice much less and enjoy their high school experience and have a similar or comparable college outcome. I think they would do it differently.

Grinding away to get into a top school and then to end up at your Flagship can feel disappointing when you would’ve gotten into the Flagship with 50% of the effort.

Depending on which state you’re in just getting into the state flagship or other state schools several spots lower may require this same degree of grinding, with still lottery like chances of getting in (California in particular with UC Berkeley, UCLA, even UC Irvine and San Diego)

It is not the same gunning for UVA as it is gunning for Northwestern, an ivy, UChicago, JHU, etc.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I feel so bad for their kids, being treated like glitter sparkle achievement ponies so the parents get some bragging rights. Let's just be honest about it. College admissions has become all about the parents, not their kids. The problem is that the kids figure it out eventually, if they haven't already. Then they collapse into a puddle of goo.

Not sure if its just the parent in this particular case. The way she talked about it seemed like her kid was equally upset about getting denied in ED1 and ED2 and now dealing with the fact that if nothing changes on Ivy Day then their achievement will only be acceptance to UVA.

Only?

WTF?!?!?

Different people, different target.

[Anonymous]

Our priority has been 8 hours sleep, free time for friends/family, only do what you enjoy. But no slacking on homework or in school as in not preparing for tests. But otherwise FU to college admissions.

We had this on repeat at home "T20 is a lottery. People spend optimizing their whole 4 years of HS for getting into T20. Since we are not doing that, your chances are even less than most. Plenty of good colleges to choose from outside of T50."

Made sure we visited safest of the safety college, even though it does not track demonstrated interest.

Ended up at HYPSM.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Our priority has been 8 hours sleep, free time for friends/family, only do what you enjoy. But no slacking on homework or in school as in not preparing for tests. But otherwise FU to college admissions.

We had this on repeat at home "T20 is a lottery. People spend optimizing their whole 4 years of HS for getting into T20. Since we are not doing that, your chances are even less than most. Plenty of good colleges to choose from outside of T50."

Made sure we visited safest of the safety college, even though it does not track demonstrated interest.

Ended up at HYPSM.

Grades alone cannot do it unless heavily hooked. Please don’t sell crap as fact.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The problem is kids sacrifice so much that had they known that they could sacrifice much less and enjoy their high school experience and have a similar or comparable college outcome. I think they would do it differently.

Grinding away to get into a top school and then to end up at your Flagship can feel disappointing when you would’ve gotten into the Flagship with 50% of the effort.

This is really false though as they wouldn’t have still gotten into UVA with lower stats. If the kid is ending up at NOVA or Towson or Salisbury on the MD side then sure but it’s becoming extremely hard to get into your state flagship from a high performing school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The problem is kids sacrifice so much that had they known that they could sacrifice much less and enjoy their high school experience and have a similar or comparable college outcome. I think they would do it differently.

Grinding away to get into a top school and then to end up at your Flagship can feel disappointing when you would’ve gotten into the Flagship with 50% of the effort.

This is really false though as they wouldn’t have still gotten into UVA with lower stats. If the kid is ending up at NOVA or Towson or Salisbury on the MD side then sure but it’s becoming extremely hard to get into your state flagship from a high performing school.

Are you suggesting a kid who is admitted to an ivy or top 10, would not have gotten into UVA with lower stats? This makes no sense. Of course, it isn't a free for all (the max rigor v. the lowest rigor) but certainly there is a step down between being at the top of the class and the next tier.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Enjoy the process, people. And encourage your kids to do the same.

College admissions is unpredictable - especially for schools that are highly selective (rejective).

Targets are called “targets” and not “safeties” for reason. Same for reach schools. An 18% acceptance rate seems promising compared to a 7% acceptance rate … but it’s not actually high. There’s a TON of rejection and disappointment baked in to the process.

It’s called “assuming the risk” of disappointment - and it’s part of life, for kids and adults, alike. This is a CHOICE. And to me, experiencing it first-hand is part of the “point” of the process.

For a teen to learn that they can always control their part (how high to aim, how much time and effort to invest along the way) but not the outcome is a HUGE learning opportunity. Sometimes all the effort pays off (achieving their goal) sometimes it doesn’t. Sometimes, in retrospect, we realize it wasn’t worth the effort after all - either because it didn’t pay off or because it didn’t actually matter that much to us in the end (the “good enough” outcome turned out to be plenty good.)

When it comes to college admissions, we need to be clear with our kids - hard work and sacrifice do not guarantee admission to highly selective (rejective) schools. If all that leads to the type of achievement colleges value, yes, it increases the odds! But there’s just no certainty to be had. And certainly no entitlement - no matter how hard a kid works and how much they’ve achieved. The odds are not in favor of acceptance.

To me, this is the point: Understanding a situation, being intentional about which risks to take, experiencing and surviving disappointment, reflecting and learning from it, and finally, moving forward with an open mind and positive outlook.

Embrace the process and do what you can to learn and grow along the way.

You are right but...

Many educated parents are already aware of this. Unfortunately knowing it is one thing but explaining why is another. There is unfairness. It discourages people from even trying and leaves them feeling bitter. If you have a talented or really smart child, it’s difficult to accept that someone else can gain an advantage simply because of money or cheating. That kind of system sends the wrong message. It’s especially frustrating for families who follow the rules, yet see others succeed through backdoor opportunities.

I'm the PP. It's actually not hard at all for us - or for our "talented" and "really smart child" - to explain and accept this without bitterness.

For context, DC was deferred from their first-choice T10 school, is in at a couple of targets, and is waiting to hear from 6 more reaches. They have all the stats you could possibly have (highest rigor, perfect GPA, 1580 SAT) AND at this point in the process, they are 100% mentally prepared to go to one of their two targets. Why? Because those are what the odds say.

As for your post, I'm struck by how much you've chosen to focus on "unfairness," "cheating," "someone else gain[ing] advantage," and "backdoor opportunities." No wonder you're left "feeling bitter"!!

Seriously, I don't get it. If my highly-qualified DC doesn't get in to their reach schools, it won't be because the world is unfair or becuase everyone else is cheating. It's would be because there's a ridiculous amount of talent out there and a very limited number of spots. Again, the numbers are what they are.

Thankfully, DC has a similarly glass-half-full mindset. They work hard, enjoy their friends and their ECs, and don't spend time worrying about how everyone else is living their lives. This is one of many reasons I'm confident they'll flourish wherever they land, both in college and beyond.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Our goal is a job offer and zero student debt in an environment they enjoyed for 4 years. That’s it.

This, but enjoy their experience and go to grad school debt free.