Who is the narcissist in this scenario?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think that Brenda thought that it could be a mutually beneficial arrangement, but now that it's gone south, Brenda needs to move out and then Joan can figure things out on her own.

It's difficult for both. I can't imagine how incredibly hard it would be for your daughter to call you a troll to your face in front of her friends. It must be humiliating.

Perhaps Joan will not be able to live on her own. Perhaps her needs will mean that she will have to move into a nursing home. But, regardless, Brenda needs to move out with her family. There is no amount of boundary setting that will work until they don't live together.

Brenda is not direct. She has never been openly mean to her mom or to anyone, she just complains and says these things about her behind her back. One of Brenda's faults is that she has never been able to say anything directly to Joan for fear of upsetting her, and this bleeds into all areas of her life. So she gets resentful, and she ends up complaining to everyone around her about her situation.

I agree with everyone that this is a bad situation without a great solution. I think that's why Brenda thinks the best case scenario is if Joan just dies peacefully in her sleep. It sounds very harsh to me to hear her say that, but I can also empathize with why she feels that way. Joan takes no responsibility for her own health and has put that burden on Brenda for most of her life. There are many things Joan could have done to be healthier, but she was unwilling to do it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think that Brenda thought that it could be a mutually beneficial arrangement, but now that it's gone south, Brenda needs to move out and then Joan can figure things out on her own.

It's difficult for both. I can't imagine how incredibly hard it would be for your daughter to call you a troll to your face in front of her friends. It must be humiliating.

Perhaps Joan will not be able to live on her own. Perhaps her needs will mean that she will have to move into a nursing home. But, regardless, Brenda needs to move out with her family. There is no amount of boundary setting that will work until they don't live together.

Brenda is not direct. She has never been openly mean to her mom or to anyone, she just complains and says these things about her behind her back. One of Brenda's faults is that she has never been able to say anything directly to Joan for fear of upsetting her, and this bleeds into all areas of her life. So she gets resentful, and she ends up complaining to everyone around her about her situation.

I agree with everyone that this is a bad situation without a great solution. I think that's why Brenda thinks the best case scenario is if Joan just dies peacefully in her sleep. It sounds very harsh to me to hear her say that, but I can also empathize with why she feels that way. Joan takes no responsibility for her own health and has put that burden on Brenda for most of her life. There are many things Joan could have done to be healthier, but she was unwilling to do it.

Okay, but surely both can see that this situation is bad. If you truly are neither Brenda nor Joan, then try to have empathy for both and help in the little ways you can. Perhaps visit Joan and tell Brenda to take some time away. Until you've been a caretaker for a depressed elder, it's hard to understand how suffocating it can be.

Also, even though they've been enmeshed for a long time, it is possible to step away. Brenda needs therapy. Joan is likely unwilling to get therapy, but Brenda can get some help, still.

Even if Brenda thinks that Joan should slip away in her sleep, she really doesn't have the perspective to see whether this would be the best ending or not. And, given this lack of perspective, the ethical thing to do, both for her mother and for her family, is to exit the scenario and let the chips fall where they may.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think that Brenda thought that it could be a mutually beneficial arrangement, but now that it's gone south, Brenda needs to move out and then Joan can figure things out on her own.

It's difficult for both. I can't imagine how incredibly hard it would be for your daughter to call you a troll to your face in front of her friends. It must be humiliating.

Perhaps Joan will not be able to live on her own. Perhaps her needs will mean that she will have to move into a nursing home. But, regardless, Brenda needs to move out with her family. There is no amount of boundary setting that will work until they don't live together.

Brenda is not direct. She has never been openly mean to her mom or to anyone, she just complains and says these things about her behind her back. One of Brenda's faults is that she has never been able to say anything directly to Joan for fear of upsetting her, and this bleeds into all areas of her life. So she gets resentful, and she ends up complaining to everyone around her about her situation.

I agree with everyone that this is a bad situation without a great solution. I think that's why Brenda thinks the best case scenario is if Joan just dies peacefully in her sleep. It sounds very harsh to me to hear her say that, but I can also empathize with why she feels that way. Joan takes no responsibility for her own health and has put that burden on Brenda for most of her life. There are many things Joan could have done to be healthier, but she was unwilling to do it.

No one forced anyone to move in with anyone, enmeshment or not.

Joan’s disability was not even mentioned by you until posters consistently critiqued Brenda’s behavior.

If Joan is being treated as poorly as you’ve stated, then Brenda is hardly afraid of upsetting her, as you’re now claiming.

Your updates just get creepier and more concerning for Joan, and make Brenda sound sociopathic.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think that Brenda thought that it could be a mutually beneficial arrangement, but now that it's gone south, Brenda needs to move out and then Joan can figure things out on her own.

It's difficult for both. I can't imagine how incredibly hard it would be for your daughter to call you a troll to your face in front of her friends. It must be humiliating.

Perhaps Joan will not be able to live on her own. Perhaps her needs will mean that she will have to move into a nursing home. But, regardless, Brenda needs to move out with her family. There is no amount of boundary setting that will work until they don't live together.

Brenda is not direct. She has never been openly mean to her mom or to anyone, she just complains and says these things about her behind her back. One of Brenda's faults is that she has never been able to say anything directly to Joan for fear of upsetting her, and this bleeds into all areas of her life. So she gets resentful, and she ends up complaining to everyone around her about her situation.

I agree with everyone that this is a bad situation without a great solution. I think that's why Brenda thinks the best case scenario is if Joan just dies peacefully in her sleep. It sounds very harsh to me to hear her say that, but I can also empathize with why she feels that way. Joan takes no responsibility for her own health and has put that burden on Brenda for most of her life. There are many things Joan could have done to be healthier, but she was unwilling to do it.

I think you should re-read your OP. Brenda cut her mom off, told her kids too as well, they openly fight, she tells people she wishes her mom would die, etc. I’m paraphrasing, but that is incongruent with what you’re saying about long suffering Brenda in this post.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think that Brenda thought that it could be a mutually beneficial arrangement, but now that it's gone south, Brenda needs to move out and then Joan can figure things out on her own.

It's difficult for both. I can't imagine how incredibly hard it would be for your daughter to call you a troll to your face in front of her friends. It must be humiliating.

Perhaps Joan will not be able to live on her own. Perhaps her needs will mean that she will have to move into a nursing home. But, regardless, Brenda needs to move out with her family. There is no amount of boundary setting that will work until they don't live together.

Brenda is not direct. She has never been openly mean to her mom or to anyone, she just complains and says these things about her behind her back. One of Brenda's faults is that she has never been able to say anything directly to Joan for fear of upsetting her, and this bleeds into all areas of her life. So she gets resentful, and she ends up complaining to everyone around her about her situation.

I agree with everyone that this is a bad situation without a great solution. I think that's why Brenda thinks the best case scenario is if Joan just dies peacefully in her sleep. It sounds very harsh to me to hear her say that, but I can also empathize with why she feels that way. Joan takes no responsibility for her own health and has put that burden on Brenda for most of her life. There are many things Joan could have done to be healthier, but she was unwilling to do it.

I think you should re-read your OP. Brenda cut her mom off, told her kids too as well, they openly fight, she tells people she wishes her mom would die, etc. I’m paraphrasing, but that is incongruent with what you’re saying about long suffering Brenda in this post.

There’s nothing incongruent in my OP. Maybe I misworded when I said Brenda has never been openly mean to Joan. I meant she’s never been mean to her face. I agree that saying those things behind her back is pretty mean, but if anything, the way she talks about Joan, it makes Brenda look bad, not Joan.

[Anonymous]

Surely, hoping that mom dies cannot be the solution??? If she's 80, she can live another 20 years with current medical advances. These people should not be living under one roof. Since Brenda moved in and took over, and mom is 80, it's up to Brenda to move out, if needed, sell the house, and go from there. Enmeshment or not, the whole situation is unsafe and unhealthy. Nobody else is going to come help Joan if Brenda is there standing in the way, both literally and figuratively.

[Anonymous]

You wrote: “Brenda talks badly about Joan to friends and family, saying she is mentally ill, and tells her friends and family to avoid talking to her. Now Joan is disabled, alone, depressed, and isolated and says she doesn't know what she did wrong to deserve this treatment.”

Brenda is not cut out to be a caregiver to an elderly person. She’s been and is abusive, both emotionally and financially.

OP, you should call adult protective services.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:'Brenda' gets married and needs a house. Brenda and her mom 'Joan' talk and decide that instead of buying a new home, she and her husband can build a 2nd story addition to Joan's house, and they can all live under one roof. Joan lives through a bit of a nightmarish year long renovation, while she remains living in the house. Brenda and her husband move in to the 2nd story. They have multiple children. They build more to make room for their growing family. They share the first floor kitchen, dining room, enclosed patio, and yard. They host many large parties at the house. Joan helps with hosting parties, but is not very social, and tends to get stressed out by the social events. They both fight over control over hosting duties. Whenever Brenda's friends come over, she often instructs them to ignore Joan and characterizes her as a grumpy troll.

Joan is aging and has increasing health issues, and Brenda gets resentful as the designated caregiver, and says she has been tricked by her mom into sharing a house. Brenda is often the default family member who takes care of Joan when she is incapacitated or ends up in the hospital, and she and her family often help her out with things she can't physically manage. After many years, Brenda decides Joan is a narcissist and cuts her off, by ignoring her and letting family and friends know that she is no longer going to be the designated caregiver. Joan gets very upset by this. Family holiday gatherings get very awkward, since they mostly avoid talking to each other. Brenda tells her kids not to talk to Joan or do things for her anymore, because she doesn't want them to be "used".

Joan confronts her mom for ignoring her. Brenda blames Joan for not being a good conversationalist. Brenda is fed up with her mom and openly wishes to her friends that her mom would die. Both Joan and Brenda claim they need to walk on eggshells with each other, and they both claim the other flips out and gets angry. Joan feels Brenda has turned everyone against her and feels alone. Brenda feels Joan has brought it on herself. She starts confronting her for all her bad behaviors (things like asking her teen to pick her up from somewhere, or getting upset at a party, or moving one of her yard decor items without asking) and is resentful that she cannot apologize and take accountability for her bad behaviors.

Based on your own statements Brenda has been in direct conflict with Joan and Joan knows it. Maybe the only thing Joan hasn’t heard is that Brenda wishes she’d die sooner rather than later.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:You wrote: “Brenda talks badly about Joan to friends and family, saying she is mentally ill, and tells her friends and family to avoid talking to her. Now Joan is disabled, alone, depressed, and isolated and says she doesn't know what she did wrong to deserve this treatment.”

Brenda is not cut out to be a caregiver to an elderly person. She’s been and is abusive, both emotionally and financially.

OP, you should call adult protective services.

I can't know for sure, but I think Joan would be in the same boat even if Brenda were not in the picture. Or more likely, Joan would have died a long time ago. There have been many times that Joan has fallen and has been unable to get up, to call or get help. Brenda got her a watch to detect falls that would notify her.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You wrote: “Brenda talks badly about Joan to friends and family, saying she is mentally ill, and tells her friends and family to avoid talking to her. Now Joan is disabled, alone, depressed, and isolated and says she doesn't know what she did wrong to deserve this treatment.”

Brenda is not cut out to be a caregiver to an elderly person. She’s been and is abusive, both emotionally and financially.

OP, you should call adult protective services.

I can't know for sure, but I think Joan would be in the same boat even if Brenda were not in the picture. Or more likely, Joan would have died a long time ago. There have been many times that Joan has fallen and has been unable to get up, to call or get help. Brenda got her a watch to detect falls that would notify her.

It seems that people like telling or hearing this so they can keep the status quo. But if Joan didn’t have anyone to help in the home the first time, the social workers in the hospital would’ve made other arrangements for her, possibly a stay in rehab to start. She might’ve been in assisted living or a nursing home already.

It shouldn't excuse Brenda’s behavior. If you’re a family member, it’s time to call a family meeting. People need to acknowledge that Brenda should not continue being the caregiver and people need to look into all other possible options for Joan’s care. And Brenda owes her mother money for the house.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You wrote: “Brenda talks badly about Joan to friends and family, saying she is mentally ill, and tells her friends and family to avoid talking to her. Now Joan is disabled, alone, depressed, and isolated and says she doesn't know what she did wrong to deserve this treatment.”

Brenda is not cut out to be a caregiver to an elderly person. She’s been and is abusive, both emotionally and financially.

OP, you should call adult protective services.

I can't know for sure, but I think Joan would be in the same boat even if Brenda were not in the picture. Or more likely, Joan would have died a long time ago. There have been many times that Joan has fallen and has been unable to get up, to call or get help. Brenda got her a watch to detect falls that would notify her.

Joan can also get this kind of help in a retirement home which would possibly be better for her than living with an abusive daughter.