S/O - insights from professors?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:To Professors:

Can you tell which students attended private prep high schools versus those with a public high school background ?

I am familiar with private day & boarding schools throughout the nation and would be shocked if graduates lacked the skills and maturity noted above by several posters.

That is not something a professor would know or ask (or care about).

+1
why do you think professors know your kid's HS?

My kid’s professors know his high school because some of them have sent their kids there.

Hit sent too soon. Plenty of kids wear stuff with their HS on it.

I doubt it... Who knows all these random high schools anyway? Many professors at top schools are new immigrants and can't relate to any of that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:To Professors:

Can you tell which students attended private prep high schools versus those with a public high school background ?

I am familiar with private day & boarding schools throughout the nation and would be shocked if graduates lacked the skills and maturity noted above by several posters.

That is not something a professor would know or ask (or care about).

+1
why do you think professors know your kid's HS?

My kid’s professors know his high school because some of them have sent their kids there.

Hit sent too soon. Plenty of kids wear stuff with their HS on it.

I doubt it... Who knows all these random high schools anyway? Many professors at top schools are new immigrants and can't relate to any of that.

Freshman year saw a friend with a "Groton" crewneck. I asked him "What's that?" and I could see he was about to tick off. It's hilarious how self important those boarding school kids think their school is.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I find that a lot of kids simply don't know how to study for a test. They will come to office hours after doing poorly on our first test, and my first question is how they studied. Many, many of them say they re-read the powerpoint slides that I put online. I ask if they created any mechanism to quiz themselves (e.g., quizlet, study guide, old fashioned flashcards) and they usually say no.

At least some portion of them also seem unwilling to do these things (though perhaps there have always been lazy students). I often offer to have students come see me before the next test so I can help them work through the material to see where they need to focus, but they should bring their study aids (quizlets, study guides, etc) and they typically don't show up... but do just as badly on the next test.

Teach your kids that re-reading is not studying. They need to have a mechanism to quiz themselves to see if they remember the material. Also, it's tempting to find those resources online (a quizlet someone created for a similar class) but the student will probably learn more from MAKING their study aid than they will learn from drilling through it. Spending the time to write the questions and answers, in itself, teaches the material. So it's much better if they create these things, themselves, even if one is apparently available online.

+100
Surprisingly they are not learning this in middle and high school anymore.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:To Professors:

Can you tell which students attended private prep high schools versus those with a public high school background ?

I am familiar with private day & boarding schools throughout the nation and would be shocked if graduates lacked the skills and maturity noted above by several posters.

That is not something a professor would know or ask (or care about).

+1
why do you think professors know your kid's HS?

My kid’s professors know his high school because some of them have sent their kids there.

Hit sent too soon. Plenty of kids wear stuff with their HS on it.

I doubt it... Who knows all these random high schools anyway? Many professors at top schools are new immigrants and can't relate to any of that.

Freshman year saw a friend with a "Groton" crewneck. I asked him "What's that?" and I could see he was about to tick off. It's hilarious how self important those boarding school kids think their school is.

I went to Andover and have multiple former classmates who got their first jobs through the alumni network. Don't underestimate the value of those names.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:To Professors:

Can you tell which students attended private prep high schools versus those with a public high school background ?

I am familiar with private day & boarding schools throughout the nation and would be shocked if graduates lacked the skills and maturity noted above by several posters.

That is not something a professor would know or ask (or care about).

+1
why do you think professors know your kid's HS?

My kid’s professors know his high school because some of them have sent their kids there.

Hit sent too soon. Plenty of kids wear stuff with their HS on it.

I doubt it... Who knows all these random high schools anyway? Many professors at top schools are new immigrants and can't relate to any of that.

Freshman year saw a friend with a "Groton" crewneck. I asked him "What's that?" and I could see he was about to tick off. It's hilarious how self important those boarding school kids think their school is.

I went to Andover and have multiple former classmates who got their first jobs through the alumni network. Don't underestimate the value of those names.

Works best if you are rich. My dad was an Andover scholarship kid who went into a non-clubby career. He went to school with a lot of people who became famous. But they were all pretty rich to begin with.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This might seem like a dumb question, but when should a student go to office hours vs. going to the tutoring center? Do you wish students went for tutoring before they come to office hours? Or do you prefer assessing where they’re at and then recommending tutoring where necessary?

Before reading these posts I might have discouraged going to office hours for help, but now I’m not so sure.

At my university there is a limited list of classes that are supported by drop-in peer tutoring. These are the very large intro level classes like intro physics, biochemistry, orgo, etc. I think the younger students feel more comfortable asking for help from experienced undergrads than from graduate students or faculty, because they can ask "dumb questions" without feeling self-conscious. Also, it's been quite a while since I had to learn the intro material, so I don't always know how to advise them HOW to study. Their peers might be better at that. But if they have conceptual questions, I am happy to clarify in office hours.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:To Professors:

Can you tell which students attended private prep high schools versus those with a public high school background ?

I am familiar with private day & boarding schools throughout the nation and would be shocked if graduates lacked the skills and maturity noted above by several posters.

That is not something a professor would know or ask (or care about).

+1
why do you think professors know your kid's HS?

My kid’s professors know his high school because some of them have sent their kids there.

Hit sent too soon. Plenty of kids wear stuff with their HS on it.

I doubt it... Who knows all these random high schools anyway? Many professors at top schools are new immigrants and can't relate to any of that.

Freshman year saw a friend with a "Groton" crewneck. I asked him "What's that?" and I could see he was about to tick off. It's hilarious how self important those boarding school kids think their school is.

I went to Andover and have multiple former classmates who got their first jobs through the alumni network. Don't underestimate the value of those names.

I am sure some important people know those names but very few of them are college professors.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:To Professors:

Can you tell which students attended private prep high schools versus those with a public high school background ?

I am familiar with private day & boarding schools throughout the nation and would be shocked if graduates lacked the skills and maturity noted above by several posters.

That is not something a professor would know or ask (or care about).

+1
why do you think professors know your kid's HS?

My kid’s professors know his high school because some of them have sent their kids there.

Hit sent too soon. Plenty of kids wear stuff with their HS on it.

I doubt it... Who knows all these random high schools anyway? Many professors at top schools are new immigrants and can't relate to any of that.

So you don't know of any private high schools in the ares you live? Doubt it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I find that a lot of kids simply don't know how to study for a test. They will come to office hours after doing poorly on our first test, and my first question is how they studied. Many, many of them say they re-read the powerpoint slides that I put online. I ask if they created any mechanism to quiz themselves (e.g., quizlet, study guide, old fashioned flashcards) and they usually say no.

At least some portion of them also seem unwilling to do these things (though perhaps there have always been lazy students). I often offer to have students come see me before the next test so I can help them work through the material to see where they need to focus, but they should bring their study aids (quizlets, study guides, etc) and they typically don't show up... but do just as badly on the next test.

Teach your kids that re-reading is not studying. They need to have a mechanism to quiz themselves to see if they remember the material. Also, it's tempting to find those resources online (a quizlet someone created for a similar class) but the student will probably learn more from MAKING their study aid than they will learn from drilling through it. Spending the time to write the questions and answers, in itself, teaches the material. So it's much better if they create these things, themselves, even if one is apparently available online.

+100
Surprisingly they are not learning this in middle and high school anymore.

They (at least my kids) learn it--they just seem to have sort of an odd resistance to doing it. My HS kid has been taught repeatedly that testing yourself is necessary for memory retrieval which is what you do on tests. I think in some ways it may be overtaught in MS and HS--at least at my kids' schools in FCPS: they have many teachers who require they make a study guide + quizlet before the test to study (and they turn it in for a small grade). So maybe they are compartmentalizing it in their brains as an assignment that they only do when told/assigned for a grade versus being a useful strategy for tests? Or they are sick of doing them? Or think that it's not something you continue doing in college?
I also think 1) it's more work than just re-reading and 2) testing yourself forces you to face what you don't know whereas you can convince yourself you have studied enough if you re-read and say uhhuh that is familiar. So it's less anxiety-inducing and/or you can quit earlier if you don't face reality. Students--like all of us--do things that are less effective because we are ambivalent/anxious.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is so helpful, and I love that these posts give me concrete things to discuss with DC as she moves toward (and isn’t yet) “college ready.” I also find these posts oddly calming — maybe it’s seeing how much you all really care, and are rooting for your students, with a strong sense of what does/doesn’t matter.

Very grateful to the profs who have weighed in here and elsewhere.

+1

+2

Thanks to those professors who've so thoughtful shared their thoughts and observations.

[Anonymous]

SLAC prof. A lot of good points, so I’ll echo a few.

Some students don’t know how to study or understand the importance of it. This is a marked change. They come to class unprepared.

They see grades as transactional, they don’t value learning but just want to get a good grade.

A lot more cheating. They are so focused on getting a good grade that they don’t focus on the learning process. I see this a lot with low stakes homework assignments, which they perceive as busy work and not tools to help them practice the material and get feedback before the exams.

They want to be entertained. They greatly dislike feeling uncomfortable and engaging in debate, critical thinking, and gray areas.

I explicitly forbid the use of phones or laptops in my classes. I cold call on students. Since I’m at an SLAC, classes are small and students are expected to be engaged. Some dislike that, but maybe that is part of the fit- this is a strength of an SLAC.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:To Professors:

Can you tell which students attended private prep high schools versus those with a public high school background ?

I am familiar with private day & boarding schools throughout the nation and would be shocked if graduates lacked the skills and maturity noted above by several posters.

That is not something a professor would know or ask (or care about).

+1
why do you think professors know your kid's HS?

My kid’s professors know his high school because some of them have sent their kids there.

Hit sent too soon. Plenty of kids wear stuff with their HS on it.

I doubt it... Who knows all these random high schools anyway? Many professors at top schools are new immigrants and can't relate to any of that.

So you don't know of any private high schools in the ares you live? Doubt it.

Take the DMV alone. I know a small number of schools, not all, but I certainly don't know how they relate to each other or which ones are 'better' than which other ones (I'm also of the firm belief that the best school for any given student should be independent of prestige indices). I'm pretty sure that anything starting with "St." is religious, anything whose name talks about bucolic landscapes is private, and anything involving the word "prep" is expensive. This affects my teaching and my assessment of my students by a factor of exactly nothing. All I want to do is help them learn and succeed, so I figure out where their skills are and then show them how to work so that they will improve.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:SLAC prof. A lot of good points, so I’ll echo a few.

Some students don’t know how to study or understand the importance of it. This is a marked change. They come to class unprepared.

They see grades as transactional, they don’t value learning but just want to get a good grade.

A lot more cheating. They are so focused on getting a good grade that they don’t focus on the learning process. I see this a lot with low stakes homework assignments, which they perceive as busy work and not tools to help them practice the material and get feedback before the exams.

They want to be entertained. They greatly dislike feeling uncomfortable and engaging in debate, critical thinking, and gray areas.

I explicitly forbid the use of phones or laptops in my classes. I cold call on students. Since I’m at an SLAC, classes are small and students are expected to be engaged. Some dislike that, but maybe that is part of the fit- this is a strength of an SLAC.

Is this the same for courses in one's major or just for required distribution type courses ?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Can I ask a dumb question? Are professors no longer allowed to use class participation as part of a grade?

I took many classes where class participation was like 10% of the grade. Now, not every kid was called in every class, but it was enough of a stick that few skipped the class and most paid attention.

Not a professor but my DC was dinged by attending every weekly discussion session with the TA but not saying anything - it was 10% of grade and the TA gave them a very low grade on that portion. They had thought they were on track for an A based on very high test scores....not so much....maybe they learned it has consequences? Hard to say (I hope so). I think some of their other classes had TA's that were just happy for students to attend those sessions vs speaking and attending.

It is called a “discussion session” so yeah, you are supposed to speak up.

Plus , kids often don’t talk because they have not done the reading.

Sounds like your kid is the “check the box“ type (not truly engaging with the material). That is not uncommon, but it is not A level work.

I agree they should speak up. They are not a check the box type and have done the reading and are very engaged with the material. They are just shy ....which is something they need to improve on. I'm glad the TA dinged them - I just hope DC takes that message and speaks up in the future.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This might seem like a dumb question, but when should a student go to office hours vs. going to the tutoring center? Do you wish students went for tutoring before they come to office hours? Or do you prefer assessing where they’re at and then recommending tutoring where necessary?

Before reading these posts I might have discouraged going to office hours for help, but now I’m not so sure.

At my university there is a limited list of classes that are supported by drop-in peer tutoring. These are the very large intro level classes like intro physics, biochemistry, orgo, etc. I think the younger students feel more comfortable asking for help from experienced undergrads than from graduate students or faculty, because they can ask "dumb questions" without feeling self-conscious. Also, it's been quite a while since I had to learn the intro material, so I don't always know how to advise them HOW to study. Their peers might be better at that. But if they have conceptual questions, I am happy to clarify in office hours.

Yes, this is an important distinction to note. If your large intro class has study sections/review sessions/peer tutoring that is where you go for the first line of support on the day to day work/quiz/test/project support. Every student should use this liberally--it's one of your best resources even if you think you understand well enough. Going will solidify your knowledge or make you realize that you don't now what you thought. Tutor quality may occasionally vary though so if something seems wrong or confusing, ask a different tutor or go to the office hours with your question.

But going to office hours with a bigger conceptual question, for instance about an idea that cuts across multiple tests or at least multiple sections on one test or dominates a project--can generate a great discussion and sometimes meaningfully further your understanding. It's best not to come in with a broad "What is x concept?" as in the time frame as a professor I can't really give you a much better answer than the textbook or a quick internet search. It's better to come in with "I've been wrestling with trying to understand x concept and these are my thoughts and questions." Then I am much more likely to be able to use my expertise to 'diagnose' your understanding-- I often can see a pattern of both good insights and misconceptions built into students' current thinking and I can help them disentangle these. This helps them understand the content and me know and understand them more as a student. Many of my students have had "aha!" moments in these conversations that shifted their understanding in important ways.
I also enjoy these conversations and they indicate to me that a student is engaging in mastering ideas rather than just trying to perform well on tests (not to mention that mastering ideas is what will help them perform well on tests more than anything else).