S/O - insights from professors?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Can I ask a dumb question? Are professors no longer allowed to use class participation as part of a grade?

I took many classes where class participation was like 10% of the grade. Now, not every kid was called in every class, but it was enough of a stick that few skipped the class and most paid attention.

Not a professor but my DC was dinged by attending every weekly discussion session with the TA but not saying anything - it was 10% of grade and the TA gave them a very low grade on that portion. They had thought they were on track for an A based on very high test scores....not so much....maybe they learned it has consequences? Hard to say (I hope so). I think some of their other classes had TA's that were just happy for students to attend those sessions vs speaking and attending.

The rubric should have defined what "participation" meant. Also all TAs for a single course should be grading with similar rubrics.

I can't know whether either of these were done (defined participation and consistency across TAs) but honestly, I'd prefer DC to take it as a "lesson" and speak up in class vs use things like these to explain it away. It's a lesson they should have heard (and remedied) already - the message isn't new. You have many great ideas, we'd like to hear you share those ideas in class.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:SLAC prof. A lot of good points, so I’ll echo a few.

Some students don’t know how to study or understand the importance of it. This is a marked change. They come to class unprepared.

They see grades as transactional, they don’t value learning but just want to get a good grade.

A lot more cheating. They are so focused on getting a good grade that they don’t focus on the learning process. I see this a lot with low stakes homework assignments, which they perceive as busy work and not tools to help them practice the material and get feedback before the exams.

They want to be entertained. They greatly dislike feeling uncomfortable and engaging in debate, critical thinking, and gray areas.

I explicitly forbid the use of phones or laptops in my classes. I cold call on students. Since I’m at an SLAC, classes are small and students are expected to be engaged. Some dislike that, but maybe that is part of the fit- this is a strength of an SLAC.

I had to do this 20 years ago. Only a few students would speak up and it's always obvious after the first test that they are the ones that mostly understood the material. So I cold call on everyone in the class. In my field this often works well - as it allow you to w work through a problem based on a student response that isn't quite right (but whose answer might sound like it makes sense - ie common mistakes) as a way to demonstrate the pathway to why the answer might "seem right" and also identify all the key pieces needed for the full correct answer. Not all fields work that way, but cold calling is surely a way to have students be prepared to be on participate.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:To Professors:

Can you tell which students attended private prep high schools versus those with a public high school background ?

I am familiar with private day & boarding schools throughout the nation and would be shocked if graduates lacked the skills and maturity noted above by several posters.

That is not something a professor would know or ask (or care about).

+1
why do you think professors know your kid's HS?

My kid’s professors know his high school because some of them have sent their kids there.

Hit sent too soon. Plenty of kids wear stuff with their HS on it.

I doubt it... Who knows all these random high schools anyway? Many professors at top schools are new immigrants and can't relate to any of that.

So you don't know of any private high schools in the ares you live? Doubt it.

Take the DMV alone. I know a small number of schools, not all, but I certainly don't know how they relate to each other or which ones are 'better' than which other ones (I'm also of the firm belief that the best school for any given student should be independent of prestige indices). I'm pretty sure that anything starting with "St." is religious, anything whose name talks about bucolic landscapes is private, and anything involving the word "prep" is expensive. This affects my teaching and my assessment of my students by a factor of exactly nothing. All I want to do is help them learn and succeed, so I figure out where their skills are and then show them how to work so that they will improve.

If you live in say, Alexandria, you will see the same car stickers/apparel over and over again in your daily life. If a professor who lives there has no idea about any of the schools in their own area, they must be ostriches.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:To Professors:

Can you tell which students attended private prep high schools versus those with a public high school background ?

I am familiar with private day & boarding schools throughout the nation and would be shocked if graduates lacked the skills and maturity noted above by several posters.

That is not something a professor would know or ask (or care about).

+1
why do you think professors know your kid's HS?

My kid’s professors know his high school because some of them have sent their kids there.

Hit sent too soon. Plenty of kids wear stuff with their HS on it.

I doubt it... Who knows all these random high schools anyway? Many professors at top schools are new immigrants and can't relate to any of that.

So you don't know of any private high schools in the ares you live? Doubt it.

Take the DMV alone. I know a small number of schools, not all, but I certainly don't know how they relate to each other or which ones are 'better' than which other ones (I'm also of the firm belief that the best school for any given student should be independent of prestige indices). I'm pretty sure that anything starting with "St." is religious, anything whose name talks about bucolic landscapes is private, and anything involving the word "prep" is expensive. This affects my teaching and my assessment of my students by a factor of exactly nothing. All I want to do is help them learn and succeed, so I figure out where their skills are and then show them how to work so that they will improve.

If you live in say, Alexandria, you will see the same car stickers/apparel over and over again in your daily life. If a professor who lives there has no idea about any of the schools in their own area, they must be ostriches.

But would you expect them to know the private schools in LA, Boston, Atlanta, Dallas, Seattle, Chicago etc?

[Anonymous]

But honestly - my DC went to a high profile private school and purposely doesn't wear HS shirts at college.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:To Professors:

Can you tell which students attended private prep high schools versus those with a public high school background ?

I am familiar with private day & boarding schools throughout the nation and would be shocked if graduates lacked the skills and maturity noted above by several posters.

That is not something a professor would know or ask (or care about).

+1
why do you think professors know your kid's HS?

My kid’s professors know his high school because some of them have sent their kids there.

Hit sent too soon. Plenty of kids wear stuff with their HS on it.

I doubt it... Who knows all these random high schools anyway? Many professors at top schools are new immigrants and can't relate to any of that.

So you don't know of any private high schools in the ares you live? Doubt it.

Take the DMV alone. I know a small number of schools, not all, but I certainly don't know how they relate to each other or which ones are 'better' than which other ones (I'm also of the firm belief that the best school for any given student should be independent of prestige indices). I'm pretty sure that anything starting with "St." is religious, anything whose name talks about bucolic landscapes is private, and anything involving the word "prep" is expensive. This affects my teaching and my assessment of my students by a factor of exactly nothing. All I want to do is help them learn and succeed, so I figure out where their skills are and then show them how to work so that they will improve.

If you live in say, Alexandria, you will see the same car stickers/apparel over and over again in your daily life. If a professor who lives there has no idea about any of the schools in their own area, they must be ostriches.

Sure, I know _of_ them (more the ones near where I live, as you point out), but I rarely know anything substantive about them or how people game them against each other. They're mostly just names to me.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:SLAC prof. A lot of good points, so I’ll echo a few.

Some students don’t know how to study or understand the importance of it. This is a marked change. They come to class unprepared.

They see grades as transactional, they don’t value learning but just want to get a good grade.

A lot more cheating. They are so focused on getting a good grade that they don’t focus on the learning process. I see this a lot with low stakes homework assignments, which they perceive as busy work and not tools to help them practice the material and get feedback before the exams.

They want to be entertained. They greatly dislike feeling uncomfortable and engaging in debate, critical thinking, and gray areas.

I explicitly forbid the use of phones or laptops in my classes. I cold call on students. Since I’m at an SLAC, classes are small and students are expected to be engaged. Some dislike that, but maybe that is part of the fit- this is a strength of an SLAC.

Is this the same for courses in one's major or just for required distribution type courses ?

I'm the SLAC prof you quoted. In my experience it's both. Majors especially feel entitled to higher grades, which is not always realistic. In both types of courses I assign a lot of reflections and reaction papers, which require synthesis of information, making connections, providing original thoughts on the material, etc. Students would much prefer just to write a summary, they don't want to engage in thinking. I've seen this change a lot over the last 10-15 years, there is little curiosity.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:To Professors:

Can you tell which students attended private prep high schools versus those with a public high school background ?

I am familiar with private day & boarding schools throughout the nation and would be shocked if graduates lacked the skills and maturity noted above by several posters.

That is not something a professor would know or ask (or care about).

+1
why do you think professors know your kid's HS?

My kid’s professors know his high school because some of them have sent their kids there.

Hit sent too soon. Plenty of kids wear stuff with their HS on it.

I doubt it... Who knows all these random high schools anyway? Many professors at top schools are new immigrants and can't relate to any of that.

So you don't know of any private high schools in the ares you live? Doubt it.

Take the DMV alone. I know a small number of schools, not all, but I certainly don't know how they relate to each other or which ones are 'better' than which other ones (I'm also of the firm belief that the best school for any given student should be independent of prestige indices). I'm pretty sure that anything starting with "St." is religious, anything whose name talks about bucolic landscapes is private, and anything involving the word "prep" is expensive. This affects my teaching and my assessment of my students by a factor of exactly nothing. All I want to do is help them learn and succeed, so I figure out where their skills are and then show them how to work so that they will improve.

If you live in say, Alexandria, you will see the same car stickers/apparel over and over again in your daily life. If a professor who lives there has no idea about any of the schools in their own area, they must be ostriches.

But would you expect them to know the private schools in LA, Boston, Atlanta, Dallas, Seattle, Chicago etc?

Because most of the private school students aren't going to college in the town they live in/went to high school in.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Can I ask a dumb question? Are professors no longer allowed to use class participation as part of a grade?

I took many classes where class participation was like 10% of the grade. Now, not every kid was called in every class, but it was enough of a stick that few skipped the class and most paid attention.

Not a professor but my DC was dinged by attending every weekly discussion session with the TA but not saying anything - it was 10% of grade and the TA gave them a very low grade on that portion. They had thought they were on track for an A based on very high test scores....not so much....maybe they learned it has consequences? Hard to say (I hope so). I think some of their other classes had TA's that were just happy for students to attend those sessions vs speaking and attending.

The rubric should have defined what "participation" meant. Also all TAs for a single course should be grading with similar rubrics.

I can't know whether either of these were done (defined participation and consistency across TAs) but honestly, I'd prefer DC to take it as a "lesson" and speak up in class vs use things like these to explain it away. It's a lesson they should have heard (and remedied) already - the message isn't new. You have many great ideas, we'd like to hear you share those ideas in class.

Of course your kid should take it as a lesson.

But a professor should always define what goes into a grade in the rubric. And in reality, should make sure all of their TAs are running their sessions in a similar manner.

Similarly, I strongly dislike profs who change the rubric midway thru the semester. My kid had one who did that (I did as well in college). Initially HW/Participation was only 5%. When majority were doing poorly, they reduced the amount exams accounted for and increased HW/Participation to 25%. That doesn't bode well for kids who calculated they didn't need the HW/Participation portion to get an A/A-, and instead chose to focus their efforts on other courses. IMO, those kids should not be penalized for what was a calculated decision made based on the original rubric. The prof should offer students the choice to use A (original rubric) or B (adjusted rubric) but should not change it for everyone.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Can I ask a dumb question? Are professors no longer allowed to use class participation as part of a grade?

I took many classes where class participation was like 10% of the grade. Now, not every kid was called in every class, but it was enough of a stick that few skipped the class and most paid attention.

Not a professor but my DC was dinged by attending every weekly discussion session with the TA but not saying anything - it was 10% of grade and the TA gave them a very low grade on that portion. They had thought they were on track for an A based on very high test scores....not so much....maybe they learned it has consequences? Hard to say (I hope so). I think some of their other classes had TA's that were just happy for students to attend those sessions vs speaking and attending.

The rubric should have defined what "participation" meant. Also all TAs for a single course should be grading with similar rubrics.

I can't know whether either of these were done (defined participation and consistency across TAs) but honestly, I'd prefer DC to take it as a "lesson" and speak up in class vs use things like these to explain it away. It's a lesson they should have heard (and remedied) already - the message isn't new. You have many great ideas, we'd like to hear you share those ideas in class.

Of course your kid should take it as a lesson.

But a professor should always define what goes into a grade in the rubric. And in reality, should make sure all of their TAs are running their sessions in a similar manner.

Similarly, I strongly dislike profs who change the rubric midway thru the semester. My kid had one who did that (I did as well in college). Initially HW/Participation was only 5%. When majority were doing poorly, they reduced the amount exams accounted for and increased HW/Participation to 25%. That doesn't bode well for kids who calculated they didn't need the HW/Participation portion to get an A/A-, and instead chose to focus their efforts on other courses. IMO, those kids should not be penalized for what was a calculated decision made based on the original rubric. The prof should offer students the choice to use A (original rubric) or B (adjusted rubric) but should not change it for everyone.

I agree with your point that things should not be changed halfway through, or if the professor deems the change important, they should prorate grades accordingly. However, to my point above (I'm one of the profs weighing in), this is a transactional view of grades - they are focused on the grade itself, and not the learning. Homeworks and participation should not be busy work, they are valuable parts of the learning experience. Perhaps the professor did not explain their justification for the change, but they may have wanted to encourage more active learning along the way, which would then lead to better grades on the exams. It's not one or the other - there is cause and effect.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Can I ask a dumb question? Are professors no longer allowed to use class participation as part of a grade?

I took many classes where class participation was like 10% of the grade. Now, not every kid was called in every class, but it was enough of a stick that few skipped the class and most paid attention.

Not a professor but my DC was dinged by attending every weekly discussion session with the TA but not saying anything - it was 10% of grade and the TA gave them a very low grade on that portion. They had thought they were on track for an A based on very high test scores....not so much....maybe they learned it has consequences? Hard to say (I hope so). I think some of their other classes had TA's that were just happy for students to attend those sessions vs speaking and attending.

The rubric should have defined what "participation" meant. Also all TAs for a single course should be grading with similar rubrics.

I can't know whether either of these were done (defined participation and consistency across TAs) but honestly, I'd prefer DC to take it as a "lesson" and speak up in class vs use things like these to explain it away. It's a lesson they should have heard (and remedied) already - the message isn't new. You have many great ideas, we'd like to hear you share those ideas in class.

Of course your kid should take it as a lesson.

But a professor should always define what goes into a grade in the rubric. And in reality, should make sure all of their TAs are running their sessions in a similar manner.

Similarly, I strongly dislike profs who change the rubric midway thru the semester. My kid had one who did that (I did as well in college). Initially HW/Participation was only 5%. When majority were doing poorly, they reduced the amount exams accounted for and increased HW/Participation to 25%. That doesn't bode well for kids who calculated they didn't need the HW/Participation portion to get an A/A-, and instead chose to focus their efforts on other courses. IMO, those kids should not be penalized for what was a calculated decision made based on the original rubric. The prof should offer students the choice to use A (original rubric) or B (adjusted rubric) but should not change it for everyone.

Sure - but I think you are too invested in caring about this as an adult. It's your student's problem and my take on something like this is that they have to learn to deal with things that are thrown at them. Most of work-like of not defined by a rubric, especially evaluations, and you can't choose your boss (aside from quitting or not taking a job offer) or the people you work with. Heck - sometimes work evaluations are all politics and sometimes there is discrimination, whether it be something legal (like gender/race) or not (like whether they like you or think you're fun/cool).

I agree not defining a rubric or changing a rubric is a pain. But the better thing to do is realize that the prof is running the show and in either case - the student should be doing their best on all dimensions of the class.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:To Professors:

Can you tell which students attended private prep high schools versus those with a public high school background ?

I am familiar with private day & boarding schools throughout the nation and would be shocked if graduates lacked the skills and maturity noted above by several posters.

That is not something a professor would know or ask (or care about).

+1
why do you think professors know your kid's HS?

My kid’s professors know his high school because some of them have sent their kids there.

Hit sent too soon. Plenty of kids wear stuff with their HS on it.

I doubt it... Who knows all these random high schools anyway? Many professors at top schools are new immigrants and can't relate to any of that.

So you don't know of any private high schools in the ares you live? Doubt it.

Take the DMV alone. I know a small number of schools, not all, but I certainly don't know how they relate to each other or which ones are 'better' than which other ones (I'm also of the firm belief that the best school for any given student should be independent of prestige indices). I'm pretty sure that anything starting with "St." is religious, anything whose name talks about bucolic landscapes is private, and anything involving the word "prep" is expensive. This affects my teaching and my assessment of my students by a factor of exactly nothing. All I want to do is help them learn and succeed, so I figure out where their skills are and then show them how to work so that they will improve.

If you live in say, Alexandria, you will see the same car stickers/apparel over and over again in your daily life. If a professor who lives there has no idea about any of the schools in their own area, they must be ostriches.

Sure, I know _of_ them (more the ones near where I live, as you point out), but I rarely know anything substantive about them or how people game them against each other. They're mostly just names to me.

+1. I personally have a kid in private school, so yes I am very familiar with the private schools in my area because I had to make a selection. But even if I do know which public or private schools have a good reputation for rigor and which do not, I find it hard to understand why I should care where your kids went to high school once they have been admitted to college. Maybe the admissions office cares when they are evaluating HS rigor. But once you're in college, only your college performance matters. If you get excellent grades in my classes, turn in intelligent work, and are responsible and polite, I will be impressed. This is all that matters. I have never once thought, "I have a bunch of students wanting to work in my lab, but Sally went to Elite Prep, so clearly she has the edge." This would be a ridiculous way to think, since I have talented students from all over the country and they come from a diverse range of high schools.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Can I ask a dumb question? Are professors no longer allowed to use class participation as part of a grade?

I took many classes where class participation was like 10% of the grade. Now, not every kid was called in every class, but it was enough of a stick that few skipped the class and most paid attention.

Not a professor but my DC was dinged by attending every weekly discussion session with the TA but not saying anything - it was 10% of grade and the TA gave them a very low grade on that portion. They had thought they were on track for an A based on very high test scores....not so much....maybe they learned it has consequences? Hard to say (I hope so). I think some of their other classes had TA's that were just happy for students to attend those sessions vs speaking and attending.

The rubric should have defined what "participation" meant. Also all TAs for a single course should be grading with similar rubrics.

I can't know whether either of these were done (defined participation and consistency across TAs) but honestly, I'd prefer DC to take it as a "lesson" and speak up in class vs use things like these to explain it away. It's a lesson they should have heard (and remedied) already - the message isn't new. You have many great ideas, we'd like to hear you share those ideas in class.

Of course your kid should take it as a lesson.

But a professor should always define what goes into a grade in the rubric. And in reality, should make sure all of their TAs are running their sessions in a similar manner.

Similarly, I strongly dislike profs who change the rubric midway thru the semester. My kid had one who did that (I did as well in college). Initially HW/Participation was only 5%. When majority were doing poorly, they reduced the amount exams accounted for and increased HW/Participation to 25%. That doesn't bode well for kids who calculated they didn't need the HW/Participation portion to get an A/A-, and instead chose to focus their efforts on other courses. IMO, those kids should not be penalized for what was a calculated decision made based on the original rubric. The prof should offer students the choice to use A (original rubric) or B (adjusted rubric) but should not change it for everyone.

Sure - but I think you are too invested in caring about this as an adult. It's your student's problem and my take on something like this is that they have to learn to deal with things that are thrown at them. Most of work-like of not defined by a rubric, especially evaluations, and you can't choose your boss (aside from quitting or not taking a job offer) or the people you work with. Heck - sometimes work evaluations are all politics and sometimes there is discrimination, whether it be something legal (like gender/race) or not (like whether they like you or think you're fun/cool).

I agree not defining a rubric or changing a rubric is a pain. But the better thing to do is realize that the prof is running the show and in either case - the student should be doing their best on all dimensions of the class.

PS - I'm the PP above and the one whose student needs to talk more in class. Again - I have zero complaint with what happened and only hope that student will participate. It is an important skill in life to weigh in on conversations, especially when you have valuable input to add. You can have great ideas and deep thought but it does you and others little good if you keep it in your head and on paper.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:To Professors:

Can you tell which students attended private prep high schools versus those with a public high school background ?

I am familiar with private day & boarding schools throughout the nation and would be shocked if graduates lacked the skills and maturity noted above by several posters.

That is not something a professor would know or ask (or care about).

+1
why do you think professors know your kid's HS?

My kid’s professors know his high school because some of them have sent their kids there.

Hit sent too soon. Plenty of kids wear stuff with their HS on it.

I doubt it... Who knows all these random high schools anyway? Many professors at top schools are new immigrants and can't relate to any of that.

So you don't know of any private high schools in the ares you live? Doubt it.

I have heard of some private schools here but don't know in detail which ones are the most prestigious. I have heard of Sidwell, Maret (sp?) and some Cathedral school. I believe they are good but I am not sure whether they are secular or co-ed.

Like a lot of people, we moved to DMV from another area, where we moved from another area. Before we had kids, we paid zero attention to school. Besides, aren't kids in college going to be coming from all over the US? How many students and faculty are going to be familiar with schools in your area? Are you familiar what the best high schools (private - or public) are, in, I dunno, Cincinnati or even San Francisco? Maybe you are, but that is not going to be common. There are so many schools all over.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I've actually posted this before, but here it is again because it really does represent what I think.

Here is a professor's wish list for sending a kid off to college. If:

-> they have stable, strong relationships with family and friends that can support them at a distance

-> they are resilient and can set aside minor setbacks and contextualize major ones

-> they are independent and have sufficient executive skills to get up on time, eat decently, care for their health, get where they need to go, and do most of their homework

-> they like themselves and are ok with spending time alone and exploring their world on their own sometimes

-> they have a personal toolbox for initiating connections with new friends and building positive relationships with others

-> they are reasonably responsible and are able to keep themselves and others out of trouble (much of the time)

-> they can take fair criticism without taking it personally and are open to learning from it

-> they know their own limits and are not too afraid or too shy to admit vulnerability and ask for help, repeatedly if necessary

-> they are able to summon (or feign!) curiosity about new things, even when those things may not seem fascinating at first glance

-> they are connected in a healthy way to something bigger than themselves, like faith, nature, an art, or a cause

-> they can summarize prose accurately and pick out items that could be used to support an argument

-> they can write in a mostly correct fashion

-> they can perform mathematical or scientific calculations at the freshman level expected by their future major

...then they will probably do just fine.

Notice how little of my list is academic, and how it says nothing about test scores, APs, or learning differences. Give your DC all of these other things, and we who teach will be able to help them learn.

Thank you for writing this! I cut and pasted into a google doc for myself. I think that these are such a beautiful encapsulation on what we are aiming for in raising a child who can think and navigate the world and goes way beyond college.