S/O - insights from professors?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:are students more or less prepared academically than 5.10.20 and 30 years ago?

Vastly less prepared: there are really no words to describe it. The lack of curiosity on their part is what really gets me. Not only do they have less skill and less knowledge coming in, but they don't seem to desire more of either.

This makes sense. My kids go to a top private where they have been forced to learn to write well, analyze text and read countless books. However, they don't have a drive to learn/explore etc. independently like I remember having at their age. I think this is a direct result of social media. They spend their free time absorbing ridiculously stupid and basic content.

[Anonymous]

Individuals mature differently and at different ages. This should be reflected in college application recommendations about the student.

Students need to think, read, and write in order to prepare for college or university study.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:are students more or less prepared academically than 5.10.20 and 30 years ago?

Much less prepared now. Very dependent on computers. Very distracted by everything. Some act like they’ve never been in a library. Many cannot write 2 pages much less 20. When giving a blue book for exams their handwriting is atrocious. They expect retakes and grade changes instead of showing up and doing work. They request notes instead of taking them in class. The list goes on and on.

+100.
So true.

Dependent on computers and having no practice or use for handwriting is what it is for the world now. The rest are problems.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I've actually posted this before, but here it is again because it really does represent what I think.

Here is a professor's wish list for sending a kid off to college. If:

-> they have stable, strong relationships with family and friends that can support them at a distance

-> they are resilient and can set aside minor setbacks and contextualize major ones

-> they are independent and have sufficient executive skills to get up on time, eat decently, care for their health, get where they need to go, and do most of their homework

-> they like themselves and are ok with spending time alone and exploring their world on their own sometimes

-> they have a personal toolbox for initiating connections with new friends and building positive relationships with others

-> they are reasonably responsible and are able to keep themselves and others out of trouble (much of the time)

-> they can take fair criticism without taking it personally and are open to learning from it

-> they know their own limits and are not too afraid or too shy to admit vulnerability and ask for help, repeatedly if necessary

-> they are able to summon (or feign!) curiosity about new things, even when those things may not seem fascinating at first glance

-> they are connected in a healthy way to something bigger than themselves, like faith, nature, an art, or a cause

-> they can summarize prose accurately and pick out items that could be used to support an argument

-> they can write in a mostly correct fashion

-> they can perform mathematical or scientific calculations at the freshman level expected by their future major

...then they will probably do just fine.

Notice how little of my list is academic, and how it says nothing about test scores, APs, or learning differences. Give your DC all of these other things, and we who teach will be able to help them learn.

Weird list. The short version is that you want students who have achieved a certain maturity level.

It's not just about maturity: it's about not falling apart in the face of hard work. There are plenty of adults in this world who are notionally mature but not resilient. If we can't push kids (productively) to be better than they were when they showed up, then that's a huge waste of students' time and families' resources. If all I do is help pick up the shattered pieces of fragile students who can't function away from home because they're just not ready, then I might be supporting the kid in the moment (and believe me, I do lots of this and consider it important), but I am not able to fulfill my larger job as an educator.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:To Professors:

Can you tell which students attended private prep high schools versus those with a public high school background ?

I am familiar with private day & boarding schools throughout the nation and would be shocked if graduates lacked the skills and maturity noted above by several posters.

Not really; not consistently. If I had to draw patterns, I'd say: Private school students tend to have more familiarity with the writing expectations and higher initial skills, but the good public school students are more likely to rapidly improve from feedback. This sometimes results in more growth and more interest which is likely to make them the strongest students. I would say that private school students are more likely to be over-represented in the top quartile of my students, but likely to be slight under-represented in the top 1%. Private school students seem to be more likely to attend office hours and have more composure in that context. They are definitely not, as a group, stronger in intellectual curiosity. If I forced to generalize, I'd say they tend to have less--at least less than the good public students--but the difference isn't noticeable and I could be wrong. The most consequential difference is unsurprising: the private schools students tend not to fall in the "worst" group. So less variability, which makes my job easier.

The private school students who struggle seem tired, set free and/or above it all rather than not capable. My most aggressive, outrageous "grade-grubbing" experiences have happened to have been with private school students, but I don't blame that on their schools rather just a personal sense of entitlement and a belief that everything is negotiable. All students, wherever they went to school, seem to struggle with managing distractions now on their own, and there doesn't seem to be a difference between groups.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:To Professors:

Can you tell which students attended private prep high schools versus those with a public high school background ?

I am familiar with private day & boarding schools throughout the nation and would be shocked if graduates lacked the skills and maturity noted above by several posters.

Not really; not consistently. If I had to draw patterns, I'd say: Private school students tend to have more familiarity with the writing expectations and higher initial skills, but the good public school students are more likely to rapidly improve from feedback. This sometimes results in more growth and more interest which is likely to make them the strongest students. I would say that private school students are more likely to be over-represented in the top quartile of my students, but likely to be slight under-represented in the top 1%. Private school students seem to be more likely to attend office hours and have more composure in that context. They are definitely not, as a group, stronger in intellectual curiosity. If I forced to generalize, I'd say they tend to have less--at least less than the good public students--but the difference isn't noticeable and I could be wrong. The most consequential difference is unsurprising: the private schools students tend not to fall in the "worst" group. So less variability, which makes my job easier.

The private school students who struggle seem tired, set free and/or above it all rather than not capable. My most aggressive, outrageous "grade-grubbing" experiences have happened to have been with private school students, but I don't blame that on their schools rather just a personal sense of entitlement and a belief that everything is negotiable. All students, wherever they went to school, seem to struggle with managing distractions now on their own, and there doesn't seem to be a difference between groups.

Did you send your own kids to public or private schools?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:To Professors:

Can you tell which students attended private prep high schools versus those with a public high school background ?

I am familiar with private day & boarding schools throughout the nation and would be shocked if graduates lacked the skills and maturity noted above by several posters.

Not really; not consistently. If I had to draw patterns, I'd say: Private school students tend to have more familiarity with the writing expectations and higher initial skills, but the good public school students are more likely to rapidly improve from feedback. This sometimes results in more growth and more interest which is likely to make them the strongest students. I would say that private school students are more likely to be over-represented in the top quartile of my students, but likely to be slight under-represented in the top 1%. Private school students seem to be more likely to attend office hours and have more composure in that context. They are definitely not, as a group, stronger in intellectual curiosity. If I forced to generalize, I'd say they tend to have less--at least less than the good public students--but the difference isn't noticeable and I could be wrong. The most consequential difference is unsurprising: the private schools students tend not to fall in the "worst" group. So less variability, which makes my job easier.

The private school students who struggle seem tired, set free and/or above it all rather than not capable. My most aggressive, outrageous "grade-grubbing" experiences have happened to have been with private school students, but I don't blame that on their schools rather just a personal sense of entitlement and a belief that everything is negotiable. All students, wherever they went to school, seem to struggle with managing distractions now on their own, and there doesn't seem to be a difference between groups.

Yikes - I hope you are not my kids professor.

You seem to have a lot of preconceived notions about private HS kids. How can you even tell where they went to school? Or are you basing this more on social economic status than anything else? What are the outward signs of wealth you are basing this on? Type of jacket? Type of shoes?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:To Professors:

Can you tell which students attended private prep high schools versus those with a public high school background ?

I am familiar with private day & boarding schools throughout the nation and would be shocked if graduates lacked the skills and maturity noted above by several posters.

Not really; not consistently. If I had to draw patterns, I'd say: Private school students tend to have more familiarity with the writing expectations and higher initial skills, but the good public school students are more likely to rapidly improve from feedback. This sometimes results in more growth and more interest which is likely to make them the strongest students. I would say that private school students are more likely to be over-represented in the top quartile of my students, but likely to be slight under-represented in the top 1%. Private school students seem to be more likely to attend office hours and have more composure in that context. They are definitely not, as a group, stronger in intellectual curiosity. If I forced to generalize, I'd say they tend to have less--at least less than the good public students--but the difference isn't noticeable and I could be wrong. The most consequential difference is unsurprising: the private schools students tend not to fall in the "worst" group. So less variability, which makes my job easier.

The private school students who struggle seem tired, set free and/or above it all rather than not capable. My most aggressive, outrageous "grade-grubbing" experiences have happened to have been with private school students, but I don't blame that on their schools rather just a personal sense of entitlement and a belief that everything is negotiable. All students, wherever they went to school, seem to struggle with managing distractions now on their own, and there doesn't seem to be a difference between groups.

Yikes - I hope you are not my kids professor.

You seem to have a lot of preconceived notions about private HS kids. How can you even tell where they went to school? Or are you basing this more on social economic status than anything else? What are the outward signs of wealth you are basing this on? Type of jacket? Type of shoes?

They were pretty nice about private school kids. The comment basically said private school students are typically in the top of the class and tend to enter office hours and sometimes suffer from grade grubbing traits. I enjoyed that the professor was quite neutral about the whole ordeal. What do you want them to do? Kiss the feet of private school kids?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:To Professors:

Can you tell which students attended private prep high schools versus those with a public high school background ?

I am familiar with private day & boarding schools throughout the nation and would be shocked if graduates lacked the skills and maturity noted above by several posters.

Not really; not consistently. If I had to draw patterns, I'd say: Private school students tend to have more familiarity with the writing expectations and higher initial skills, but the good public school students are more likely to rapidly improve from feedback. This sometimes results in more growth and more interest which is likely to make them the strongest students. I would say that private school students are more likely to be over-represented in the top quartile of my students, but likely to be slight under-represented in the top 1%. Private school students seem to be more likely to attend office hours and have more composure in that context. They are definitely not, as a group, stronger in intellectual curiosity. If I forced to generalize, I'd say they tend to have less--at least less than the good public students--but the difference isn't noticeable and I could be wrong. The most consequential difference is unsurprising: the private schools students tend not to fall in the "worst" group. So less variability, which makes my job easier.

The private school students who struggle seem tired, set free and/or above it all rather than not capable. My most aggressive, outrageous "grade-grubbing" experiences have happened to have been with private school students, but I don't blame that on their schools rather just a personal sense of entitlement and a belief that everything is negotiable. All students, wherever they went to school, seem to struggle with managing distractions now on their own, and there doesn't seem to be a difference between groups.

Yikes - I hope you are not my kids professor.

You seem to have a lot of preconceived notions about private HS kids. How can you even tell where they went to school? Or are you basing this more on social economic status than anything else? What are the outward signs of wealth you are basing this on? Type of jacket? Type of shoes?

If you notice, I began my answer that I couldn't consistently and reliably generalize, but if forced to I could note some patterns. I tend to teach the advanced seminar undergraduate courses so I know my students and their backgrounds personally. There's a lot of conversation in class and before and after. I regularly work with students on capstone projects. You come to know where they are from, where they went to school, their pets back home etc.
I went to private school myself. One of my kids went to public school and the other is at a private. I made that decision on the environment I thought best suited to them. I am not biased against private schools, but I also don't think they are universally superior to public. I thought PP's question was notably biased in favor of private schools, however, so I may have been tempering that a bit. I tried to give my most accurate representation of my experience with students.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:To Professors:

Can you tell which students attended private prep high schools versus those with a public high school background ?

I am familiar with private day & boarding schools throughout the nation and would be shocked if graduates lacked the skills and maturity noted above by several posters.

Not really; not consistently. If I had to draw patterns, I'd say: Private school students tend to have more familiarity with the writing expectations and higher initial skills, but the good public school students are more likely to rapidly improve from feedback. This sometimes results in more growth and more interest which is likely to make them the strongest students. I would say that private school students are more likely to be over-represented in the top quartile of my students, but likely to be slight under-represented in the top 1%. Private school students seem to be more likely to attend office hours and have more composure in that context. They are definitely not, as a group, stronger in intellectual curiosity. If I forced to generalize, I'd say they tend to have less--at least less than the good public students--but the difference isn't noticeable and I could be wrong. The most consequential difference is unsurprising: the private schools students tend not to fall in the "worst" group. So less variability, which makes my job easier.

The private school students who struggle seem tired, set free and/or above it all rather than not capable. My most aggressive, outrageous "grade-grubbing" experiences have happened to have been with private school students, but I don't blame that on their schools rather just a personal sense of entitlement and a belief that everything is negotiable. All students, wherever they went to school, seem to struggle with managing distractions now on their own, and there doesn't seem to be a difference between groups.

Yikes - I hope you are not my kids professor.

You seem to have a lot of preconceived notions about private HS kids. How can you even tell where they went to school? Or are you basing this more on social economic status than anything else? What are the outward signs of wealth you are basing this on? Type of jacket? Type of shoes?

They were literally ASKED to give these opinions!?! My interpretation is they made these based on the students that did reveal their background and that for many students, they didn't know their background and didn't make assumptions.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:To Professors:

Can you tell which students attended private prep high schools versus those with a public high school background ?

I am familiar with private day & boarding schools throughout the nation and would be shocked if graduates lacked the skills and maturity noted above by several posters.

Not really; not consistently. If I had to draw patterns, I'd say: Private school students tend to have more familiarity with the writing expectations and higher initial skills, but the good public school students are more likely to rapidly improve from feedback. This sometimes results in more growth and more interest which is likely to make them the strongest students. I would say that private school students are more likely to be over-represented in the top quartile of my students, but likely to be slight under-represented in the top 1%. Private school students seem to be more likely to attend office hours and have more composure in that context. They are definitely not, as a group, stronger in intellectual curiosity. If I forced to generalize, I'd say they tend to have less--at least less than the good public students--but the difference isn't noticeable and I could be wrong. The most consequential difference is unsurprising: the private schools students tend not to fall in the "worst" group. So less variability, which makes my job easier.

The private school students who struggle seem tired, set free and/or above it all rather than not capable. My most aggressive, outrageous "grade-grubbing" experiences have happened to have been with private school students, but I don't blame that on their schools rather just a personal sense of entitlement and a belief that everything is negotiable. All students, wherever they went to school, seem to struggle with managing distractions now on their own, and there doesn't seem to be a difference between groups.

Did you send your own kids to public or private schools?

I split the difference--one kid went to public, the other private. Based on their needs/desires.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:To Professors:

Can you tell which students attended private prep high schools versus those with a public high school background ?

I am familiar with private day & boarding schools throughout the nation and would be shocked if graduates lacked the skills and maturity noted above by several posters.

16:19 and 18:30 here. I really cannot tell. Way too many students to get to know one-on-one. Of the ones that end up chatting with me in my office, the topic of what school they went to rarely comes up. But of those kids who I know well, most are from public, but I can't think of any conclusions you can draw from that. I haven't noticed any trend, because there is a huge range of rigor between public schools and there is a huge range of rigor between private schools. My own kid goes to private, but if I lived in a different zip code, I likely would have sent them to public.

If you find that your kid's school, whether private or public, is missing an element in some way, try to supplement those skills if you can. For example, if your kid goes to a private that teaches only the classics, if they want to be a philosophy major, that's great. If they want to be a science major, they should probably self study some AP science courses.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This is so helpful, and I love that these posts give me concrete things to discuss with DC as she moves toward (and isn’t yet) “college ready.” I also find these posts oddly calming — maybe it’s seeing how much you all really care, and are rooting for your students, with a strong sense of what does/doesn’t matter.

Very grateful to the profs who have weighed in here and elsewhere.

Glad you are seeing all of the good advice given so far, OP, and that you are seeing that professors are rooting for the students to do well. I'm now in a pure research role, but when I was a professor (research-heavy but also teaching undergraduates) I definitely wanted to help my students grow and succeed, and enjoyed connecting with them on various levels.

One other thing to note (or re-emphasize) is the point about interacting with professors beyond just asking for extra credit, extensions, or grades - a respectful office-hours visit (or email) from a student is always welcome and also great chance to practice professional interactions with a bit of a safety net (of course we'll help even when the student is not being professional or respectful), especially when it focuses on a concept from the class.

A visit to office hours can be something as simple as 'I think I understand this but can I explain it to you in my own words to see if I've got it?" So coaching DC to make a practice of going to office hours (at least a few times a semester if that's all that is needed) even if just to check in on the material is a good idea. I had students who would come once per semester, and others who would come every single time - they generally got much more out of the class (and better grades) than the students who never interacted with me one on one (though I had students in this category as well!)

[Anonymous]

Ivy League professor here. Sorry, haven't read the entire thread, so I may be repeating.

First, get your kids off their phones. And their other electronic devices. They do not know how to read, or how to digest large volumes of information. It almost seems as if many of them can't. Their attention spans are gone.

Second, probably relatedly, they struggle to engage in deep discussions. They are used to staying quiet and transcribing what they hear from the front of the room, and that's if they're even paying attention/able to pay attention.

Third, encourage balance. The best students find a balance between academics and other activities (that aren't screens). One improvement in the newer generation is an openness to mental health care.

Fourth, fifth, sixth, and beyond: Get them off their damned screens.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Ivy League professor here. Sorry, haven't read the entire thread, so I may be repeating.

First, get your kids off their phones. And their other electronic devices. They do not know how to read, or how to digest large volumes of information. It almost seems as if many of them can't. Their attention spans are gone.

Second, probably relatedly, they struggle to engage in deep discussions. They are used to staying quiet and transcribing what they hear from the front of the room, and that's if they're even paying attention/able to pay attention.

Third, encourage balance. The best students find a balance between academics and other activities (that aren't screens). One improvement in the newer generation is an openness to mental health care.

Fourth, fifth, sixth, and beyond: Get them off their damned screens.

Great post ! Thank you.