Kids in high achieving schools

[Anonymous]

As I’ve gotten more senior in my career (former Biglaw), I’ve realized that all the striving leads to a dead end. We have enough money now to sustain our relatively modest life. I ask myself whether I want my kids to follow a similar path.

In other words do they bust their butts to do well academically, work in a high-pressure, thankless job, and then get disillusioned with their lives thus far? Or do they take the long view even from high school, and realized that a balanced life, well lived is better than a high-achieving burst that burns out after 15 years.

And I’m also Asian, second generation American with parents who grew up in a country with a national test for college.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:As I’ve gotten more senior in my career (former Biglaw), I’ve realized that all the striving leads to a dead end. We have enough money now to sustain our relatively modest life. I ask myself whether I want my kids to follow a similar path.

In other words do they bust their butts to do well academically, work in a high-pressure, thankless job, and then get disillusioned with their lives thus far? Or do they take the long view even from high school, and realized that a balanced life, well lived is better than a high-achieving burst that burns out after 15 years.

And I’m also Asian, second generation American with parents who grew up in a country with a national test for college.

+1. My spouse could have written this exact comment. He is not from biglaw but worked really hard during his early career and feels burnt out and doesn’t want this path for our kids.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:As I’ve gotten more senior in my career (former Biglaw), I’ve realized that all the striving leads to a dead end. We have enough money now to sustain our relatively modest life. I ask myself whether I want my kids to follow a similar path.

In other words do they bust their butts to do well academically, work in a high-pressure, thankless job, and then get disillusioned with their lives thus far? Or do they take the long view even from high school, and realized that a balanced life, well lived is better than a high-achieving burst that burns out after 15 years.

And I’m also Asian, second generation American with parents who grew up in a country with a national test for college.

"We have enough money now to sustain our relatively modest life" is key here. Median income is 70K in the DMV. Would you be happy with 70K? Or is 200K+ your definition of "relatively" modest?

If my DC didn't have to "strive" to guarantee themselves an UMC lifestyle, let me know how to achieve that. I do know many "nonstrivers" from my high school that are struggling with their bills and dealing with much more stressful LMC and MC problems, rather than DCUM's relatively banal UMC problems.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As I’ve gotten more senior in my career (former Biglaw), I’ve realized that all the striving leads to a dead end. We have enough money now to sustain our relatively modest life. I ask myself whether I want my kids to follow a similar path.

In other words do they bust their butts to do well academically, work in a high-pressure, thankless job, and then get disillusioned with their lives thus far? Or do they take the long view even from high school, and realized that a balanced life, well lived is better than a high-achieving burst that burns out after 15 years.

And I’m also Asian, second generation American with parents who grew up in a country with a national test for college.

+1. My spouse could have written this exact comment. He is not from biglaw but worked really hard during his early career and feels burnt out and doesn’t want this path for our kids.

Another Asian American here. DH is a surgeon who worked extremely hard to get where he is. We are a very Americanized family and value health and happiness over all. I still expect my kids to get good grades and try their best.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My kid is at a magnet school in Moco and I'm not seeing this at all, at least not as a widespread phenomenon. The college admissions rat race can be awful, but a lot of it depends on how the parents support their kids and manage expectations. Is my kid grinding through and sleep deprived at times? Yes, but not all the time thankfully. Most importantly, DC feels satisfied and fulfilled by engaging with a curriculum that is appropriately challenging. DC sets their pace, not me, and we don't force any ECs they don't enjoy. So, even with very high stats and rigor, they probably won't get into HYPMS, but their college readiness will be outstanding and I feel confident they will do very well wherever they land. Most of the parents I know have the same attitude. There are a few extreme "Harvard, MIT or bust" parents who make their kids' lives miserable but that is the exception not the rule ime. Of course, mental health issues have intensified since the pandemic. I could see the combo of high-pressure schools, high-pressure parents, and that creating a toxic stew but, again, I haven't seen much of that in my kid's circles.

Must be at a different magnet. Kids at DC's magnet are crazy stressed out.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As I’ve gotten more senior in my career (former Biglaw), I’ve realized that all the striving leads to a dead end. We have enough money now to sustain our relatively modest life. I ask myself whether I want my kids to follow a similar path.

In other words do they bust their butts to do well academically, work in a high-pressure, thankless job, and then get disillusioned with their lives thus far? Or do they take the long view even from high school, and realized that a balanced life, well lived is better than a high-achieving burst that burns out after 15 years.

And I’m also Asian, second generation American with parents who grew up in a country with a national test for college.

"We have enough money now to sustain our relatively modest life" is key here. Median income is 70K in the DMV. Would you be happy with 70K? Or is 200K+ your definition of "relatively" modest?

If my DC didn't have to "strive" to guarantee themselves an UMC lifestyle, let me know how to achieve that. I do know many "nonstrivers" from my high school that are struggling with their bills and dealing with much more stressful LMC and MC problems, rather than DCUM's relatively banal UMC problems.

The key is "UMC lifestyle." What does that entail?

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I was friends with someone who did part-time work at one of the competitive (but not big three) schools in MoCo. She ended up leaving because she said the kids were so stressed out and fearful of anything short of perfection. She was a high achiever herself and from a highly competitive public school in the Northeast. She thought it was not the DMV but more the times.

It’s definitely the times. I live elsewhere and am involved in independent school leadership. We hear parents during admissions season say they want a supportive community, a low-pressure school focused on individuals, not achievement, and a place where their child is valued for who they are. And these parents genuinely want this- it’s not fake. But once their child is in school the script flips and they want to know why we aren’t testing, why exmissions weren’t “better”, comparisons to other area schools, and explanations for why their 2nd grader is doing pre-calc.

It is ALL fear and insecurity and it comes from parents who don’t actually know their own values and what they hold important. They are scared to be in touch with or even discuss what they’re trying to get out of in life, and they fall back on the safety of external validation and “achievement” once their children are old enough to be compared to others or have to compete for resources.

It’s probably the biggest problem facing schools, parents, and kids. And I have no idea how it can get fixed because so few people dare to walk away from the game- and those that do are often so privileged that they are actually the ones running the game and making the rules.

I think you ended up inadvertently nailing the point here --

But this definitely isn't the case in this day and age. The external markers of adulthood -- buying a house in a good pyramid, saving for your kids' college while also paying for daycare, medical expenses, and retirement, have all gotten incredibly expensive. Income inequality is at an all-time high.

To survive in this world, kids need to be at the top of their game economically. And that means that they have to CRUSH IT in their schoolwork and ECs in high school, get accepted into a reputable college (not necessarily an elite one, but at the very least a solid school like VA Tech), and major in CS or Finance or do pre-med.

After college graduation, young adults these days MUST go into tech or finance or into med school (with hopes of matching into a lucrative speciality, not something like pediatrics) if they want to be UMC (not rich, just comfortable) in this day and age.

DP. Fwiw, this is incorrect. Income inequality is at an all time high but that's a red herring. Aside from the 0.0001%, the MC is shrinking because the UMC/UC is increasing. The size of the LC is not growing, the MC are moving up. Gen Z has figured out that a college degree is not worth it for many people and companies/employers are dropping these requirements. While doctors and lawyers can be lucrative stable careers (or not), there are plenty of other avenues to UMC/UC lives for our kids.

It may be hard to see in the Bay Area, and it may be hard to see in the DMV, but we don't need to fight over Ivy/top tier schools for our kids. The pressure and insecurity is false.

PP here. No, you’re totally wrong. There are NOT a lot of other avenues to the UMC for kids these days except for tech, finance, medicine, consulting, or corporate law. And where you go to college matters — full stop.

You seem like a deluded privileged person. You’re probably in the first or third category of what the PP described:

============

There are not a lot of other avenues for YOUR kids outside of what you've listed, because you've made them believe that. But that is not true for all other UMC kids.

NP. But I just wanted to tell the Bay Area Asian parent to maybe consider not closing off their kids' options. I am 2nd gen Indian American and in my mid 40s; while my dh/I do fit your profile (medicine, law, tech,etc) quite a number of our cousins on both sides do not (generally a bit younger than us) and have been completely successful in other careers - psychology, journalist, fashion, architecture. I am very proud of them and am glad my aunts/uncles encouraged them! They are all living comfortable UMC lives (and in some cases are richer than this MD-Tech family).

With that being said, none of them would be where they are today without their parents. They encouraged them to take big risks (unpaid internships, low paid starter jobs etc), and in many cases financed this risk taking. It obviously paid off. Maybe your hard work can also help your kids take risks with a landing pad, PP.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My kid is at a magnet school in Moco and I'm not seeing this at all, at least not as a widespread phenomenon. The college admissions rat race can be awful, but a lot of it depends on how the parents support their kids and manage expectations. Is my kid grinding through and sleep deprived at times? Yes, but not all the time thankfully. Most importantly, DC feels satisfied and fulfilled by engaging with a curriculum that is appropriately challenging. DC sets their pace, not me, and we don't force any ECs they don't enjoy. So, even with very high stats and rigor, they probably won't get into HYPMS, but their college readiness will be outstanding and I feel confident they will do very well wherever they land. Most of the parents I know have the same attitude. There are a few extreme "Harvard, MIT or bust" parents who make their kids' lives miserable but that is the exception not the rule ime. Of course, mental health issues have intensified since the pandemic. I could see the combo of high-pressure schools, high-pressure parents, and that creating a toxic stew but, again, I haven't seen much of that in my kid's circles.

You seem pretty clueless if you think magnet kids are not pressured or just happy to be stimulated. That is what they want you to see. Your kid is probably the one popping Adderall. Usually $5-10 a pill. Helps you study. RM students sell them like candy.

[Anonymous]

This is just silly. Of course there are still many paths to success in America that aren’t Princeton and investment banking. The fact that posters on here don’t know this just means they live in a bubble. And how ironic that they shout “privilege!” to those who disagree.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As I’ve gotten more senior in my career (former Biglaw), I’ve realized that all the striving leads to a dead end. We have enough money now to sustain our relatively modest life. I ask myself whether I want my kids to follow a similar path.

In other words do they bust their butts to do well academically, work in a high-pressure, thankless job, and then get disillusioned with their lives thus far? Or do they take the long view even from high school, and realized that a balanced life, well lived is better than a high-achieving burst that burns out after 15 years.

And I’m also Asian, second generation American with parents who grew up in a country with a national test for college.

"We have enough money now to sustain our relatively modest life" is key here. Median income is 70K in the DMV. Would you be happy with 70K? Or is 200K+ your definition of "relatively" modest?

If my DC didn't have to "strive" to guarantee themselves an UMC lifestyle, let me know how to achieve that. I do know many "nonstrivers" from my high school that are struggling with their bills and dealing with much more stressful LMC and MC problems, rather than DCUM's relatively banal UMC problems.

Agree. UMC is expensive. Your income and your lifestyle are a direct reflection of you working very hard for many years. It builds character to apply your maximum effort and develop a stellar work ethic in the process. The grass isn’t greener on the average/middle class side. There are plenty of them wishing they would have worked harder, had more parental support with academics, etc. so they could have had the ability to obtain a higher paying career- while their life may be “balanced” they are shut out of a lot of opportunities and experiences for themselves and their children bc they can’t afford them, not to mention if a disaster happens and they don’t have enough savings to cover.

How hard you work in high school, college, and the early years of your career definitely sets the trajectory for the rest of your adult life. Slack off early on and it is hard to recover. If you front load all the work, mid career you can start stepping back.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As I’ve gotten more senior in my career (former Biglaw), I’ve realized that all the striving leads to a dead end. We have enough money now to sustain our relatively modest life. I ask myself whether I want my kids to follow a similar path.

In other words do they bust their butts to do well academically, work in a high-pressure, thankless job, and then get disillusioned with their lives thus far? Or do they take the long view even from high school, and realized that a balanced life, well lived is better than a high-achieving burst that burns out after 15 years.

And I’m also Asian, second generation American with parents who grew up in a country with a national test for college.

"We have enough money now to sustain our relatively modest life" is key here. Median income is 70K in the DMV. Would you be happy with 70K? Or is 200K+ your definition of "relatively" modest?

If my DC didn't have to "strive" to guarantee themselves an UMC lifestyle, let me know how to achieve that. I do know many "nonstrivers" from my high school that are struggling with their bills and dealing with much more stressful LMC and MC problems, rather than DCUM's relatively banal UMC problems.

DP here. Both DH and I went to T10 universities. We also have advanced degrees, one from an Ivy and one from an elite scientifically respected university. We both went through the stress of it all (from our own choosing), and so I think we can safely say the elite grind is not worth it if all you care about is a UMC income. All you need is a reasonable amount of self-drive, decent grades in school, some reasonable social skills. It also helps to have parents who are somewhat connected or who can give you guidance. There are so many people who are doing equally well financially or who are better off financially than we are, and who did not go to elite colleges or work their butts off to get there. Looking back, I probably would have made different choices, and would encourage my DC to prioritize work-life balance.

There is a nice middle of the road option between non-striving total slacker and overly driven.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My kid is at a magnet school in Moco and I'm not seeing this at all, at least not as a widespread phenomenon. The college admissions rat race can be awful, but a lot of it depends on how the parents support their kids and manage expectations. Is my kid grinding through and sleep deprived at times? Yes, but not all the time thankfully. Most importantly, DC feels satisfied and fulfilled by engaging with a curriculum that is appropriately challenging. DC sets their pace, not me, and we don't force any ECs they don't enjoy. So, even with very high stats and rigor, they probably won't get into HYPMS, but their college readiness will be outstanding and I feel confident they will do very well wherever they land. Most of the parents I know have the same attitude. There are a few extreme "Harvard, MIT or bust" parents who make their kids' lives miserable but that is the exception not the rule ime. Of course, mental health issues have intensified since the pandemic. I could see the combo of high-pressure schools, high-pressure parents, and that creating a toxic stew but, again, I haven't seen much of that in my kid's circles.

I think you underestimate the implicit pressure your kids face from seeing other kids kill themselves to be at the top, and when they see Larlas and Larlos head off to HYPMS it won't matter that YOU didn't pressure them. Your job as a parent of a kid in a high achieving school is to fight against this implicit pressure, and I don't think it's as easy to do so as you are claiming.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I feel the most sorry for the child of recent immigrants (who often are) from a country where a national exam score determines which college one can attend. So many of those kids are under so much pressure at home to bring in only As and nothing B or below. Those immigrant parents sometimes do not understand that “Mary” whose parent and grandparent went to X and have been giving big bucks to X for multiple generations and has a mix of As and Bs has a huge advantage with X at admissions time. Some kids can thrive under pressure, but many do not thrive.

Do you think people who are immigrants are stupid? Obviously we know that Mary whose parents are wealthy and have been donated to college X for generations has a big advantage. Why do you think they think they have to work so hard?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My kid is at a magnet school in Moco and I'm not seeing this at all, at least not as a widespread phenomenon. The college admissions rat race can be awful, but a lot of it depends on how the parents support their kids and manage expectations. Is my kid grinding through and sleep deprived at times? Yes, but not all the time thankfully. Most importantly, DC feels satisfied and fulfilled by engaging with a curriculum that is appropriately challenging. DC sets their pace, not me, and we don't force any ECs they don't enjoy. So, even with very high stats and rigor, they probably won't get into HYPMS, but their college readiness will be outstanding and I feel confident they will do very well wherever they land. Most of the parents I know have the same attitude. There are a few extreme "Harvard, MIT or bust" parents who make their kids' lives miserable but that is the exception not the rule ime. Of course, mental health issues have intensified since the pandemic. I could see the combo of high-pressure schools, high-pressure parents, and that creating a toxic stew but, again, I haven't seen much of that in my kid's circles.

You seem pretty clueless if you think magnet kids are not pressured or just happy to be stimulated. That is what they want you to see. Your kid is probably the one popping Adderall. Usually $5-10 a pill. Helps you study. RM students sell them like candy.

RM is really bad. The curriculum is not stimulating or interesting. It's just stressful.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I was friends with someone who did part-time work at one of the competitive (but not big three) schools in MoCo. She ended up leaving because she said the kids were so stressed out and fearful of anything short of perfection. She was a high achiever herself and from a highly competitive public school in the Northeast. She thought it was not the DMV but more the times.

It’s definitely the times. I live elsewhere and am involved in independent school leadership. We hear parents during admissions season say they want a supportive community, a low-pressure school focused on individuals, not achievement, and a place where their child is valued for who they are. And these parents genuinely want this- it’s not fake. But once their child is in school the script flips and they want to know why we aren’t testing, why exmissions weren’t “better”, comparisons to other area schools, and explanations for why their 2nd grader is doing pre-calc.

It is ALL fear and insecurity and it comes from parents who don’t actually know their own values and what they hold important. They are scared to be in touch with or even discuss what they’re trying to get out of in life, and they fall back on the safety of external validation and “achievement” once their children are old enough to be compared to others or have to compete for resources.

It’s probably the biggest problem facing schools, parents, and kids. And I have no idea how it can get fixed because so few people dare to walk away from the game- and those that do are often so privileged that they are actually the ones running the game and making the rules.

I think you ended up inadvertently nailing the point here --

But this definitely isn't the case in this day and age. The external markers of adulthood -- buying a house in a good pyramid, saving for your kids' college while also paying for daycare, medical expenses, and retirement, have all gotten incredibly expensive. Income inequality is at an all-time high.

To survive in this world, kids need to be at the top of their game economically. And that means that they have to CRUSH IT in their schoolwork and ECs in high school, get accepted into a reputable college (not necessarily an elite one, but at the very least a solid school like VA Tech), and major in CS or Finance or do pre-med.

After college graduation, young adults these days MUST go into tech or finance or into med school (with hopes of matching into a lucrative speciality, not something like pediatrics) if they want to be UMC (not rich, just comfortable) in this day and age.

DP. Fwiw, this is incorrect. Income inequality is at an all time high but that's a red herring. Aside from the 0.0001%, the MC is shrinking because the UMC/UC is increasing. The size of the LC is not growing, the MC are moving up. Gen Z has figured out that a college degree is not worth it for many people and companies/employers are dropping these requirements. While doctors and lawyers can be lucrative stable careers (or not), there are plenty of other avenues to UMC/UC lives for our kids.

It may be hard to see in the Bay Area, and it may be hard to see in the DMV, but we don't need to fight over Ivy/top tier schools for our kids. The pressure and insecurity is false.

PP here. No, you’re totally wrong. There are NOT a lot of other avenues to the UMC for kids these days except for tech, finance, medicine, consulting, or corporate law. And where you go to college matters — full stop.

You seem like a deluded privileged person. You’re probably in the first or third category of what the PP described:

============

There are not a lot of other avenues for YOUR kids outside of what you've listed, because you've made them believe that. But that is not true for all other UMC kids.

+1 Thinking about PP's analysis of the "types", I think I'd put my family in group #1. We're not at a private school but kids went to a high-achieving/UMC public HS. I think a lot of our contentment, or confidence, that our kids will do fine in life if we just support them in pursuing their interests and they go to solid but not “the best” colleges, mainly comes from looking around at the people we know, the young people we work with and in our families, and seeing that plenty of people are getting along fine in life without buying into this idea that the only way to success is a T20 college + doctor/lawyer/hot tech job. As long as you don't define "success" as making the absolute highest salary you possibly can.

DH and I and my siblings all went to middle of the road public colleges and have done just fine. Professional careers but not the big money dr/lawyer/etc. BIL's kids (all Millennials) didn’t go to college at all and all are gainfully employed and home owners (in a lower COL city). Among my large group of cousins, I’ve seen a lot of their kids launch into solid careers from a huge range of schools in recent years so it's not just an outdated GenX memory. I work with people from all kinds of colleges. I just don’t get the fear. I do acknowledge that my kids, particularly one interested in a less high-paying path, may need to set sights on lower COL areas but that’s the trade-off she will need to make in prioritizing her passion and she fully recognizes that. We did discuss it as she thought about majors, colleges, etc.

We’re not 1%’ers but are able to send the kids to college without debt (public U for one, LAC w/ merit for the other) and I anticipate they will each get some inheritance from my mom (now in her mid-80s) which will help them with an initial downpayment for a first home purchase. Those two things are a huge leg up for getting started in life. So yes, we are privileged but a lot less than other who seems so stressed out about this. Maybe because the higher you go in income, the harder it would be for your kids to replicate that income? Maybe that's just not a reasonable expectation at some point. Especially not if you have to destroy your kids' mental health in pursuit of it.

Do you recognize the privilege that you've grown up with and/or live now? You point towards your anecdata as reasons why college rankings don't matter, but peer-reviewed studies by Chetty and others have consistently shown that college rankings matter.

Some of the people most stressed out about this, most focused on it being so important that their kids go to top ranked school have a ton of privilege. Their kids will be fine if they go to the #80 ranked school vs. #10.

Especially if it is for an in-demand job. My DD went to a lesser known engineering college and graduated in 3.5 years making 6 figures. She had a fantastic scholarship and only has about 12K in student loans. She was a little upset about turning down better colleges with less scholarships and also not getting accepting to some. But in the end, by winter break of freshman year, she was in love with her school. Perfect match. Find your own way