Kids in high achieving schools

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I was friends with someone who did part-time work at one of the competitive (but not big three) schools in MoCo. She ended up leaving because she said the kids were so stressed out and fearful of anything short of perfection. She was a high achiever herself and from a highly competitive public school in the Northeast. She thought it was not the DMV but more the times.

It’s definitely the times. I live elsewhere and am involved in independent school leadership. We hear parents during admissions season say they want a supportive community, a low-pressure school focused on individuals, not achievement, and a place where their child is valued for who they are. And these parents genuinely want this- it’s not fake. But once their child is in school the script flips and they want to know why we aren’t testing, why exmissions weren’t “better”, comparisons to other area schools, and explanations for why their 2nd grader is doing pre-calc.

It is ALL fear and insecurity and it comes from parents who don’t actually know their own values and what they hold important. They are scared to be in touch with or even discuss what they’re trying to get out of in life, and they fall back on the safety of external validation and “achievement” once their children are old enough to be compared to others or have to compete for resources.

It’s probably the biggest problem facing schools, parents, and kids. And I have no idea how it can get fixed because so few people dare to walk away from the game- and those that do are often so privileged that they are actually the ones running the game and making the rules.

I think you ended up inadvertently nailing the point here --

But this definitely isn't the case in this day and age. The external markers of adulthood -- buying a house in a good pyramid, saving for your kids' college while also paying for daycare, medical expenses, and retirement, have all gotten incredibly expensive. Income inequality is at an all-time high.

To survive in this world, kids need to be at the top of their game economically. And that means that they have to CRUSH IT in their schoolwork and ECs in high school, get accepted into a reputable college (not necessarily an elite one, but at the very least a solid school like VA Tech), and major in CS or Finance or do pre-med.

After college graduation, young adults these days MUST go into tech or finance or into med school (with hopes of matching into a lucrative speciality, not something like pediatrics) if they want to be UMC (not rich, just comfortable) in this day and age.

DP. Fwiw, this is incorrect. Income inequality is at an all time high but that's a red herring. Aside from the 0.0001%, the MC is shrinking because the UMC/UC is increasing. The size of the LC is not growing, the MC are moving up. Gen Z has figured out that a college degree is not worth it for many people and companies/employers are dropping these requirements. While doctors and lawyers can be lucrative stable careers (or not), there are plenty of other avenues to UMC/UC lives for our kids.

It may be hard to see in the Bay Area, and it may be hard to see in the DMV, but we don't need to fight over Ivy/top tier schools for our kids. The pressure and insecurity is false.

PP here. No, you’re totally wrong. There are NOT a lot of other avenues to the UMC for kids these days except for tech, finance, medicine, consulting, or corporate law. And where you go to college matters — full stop.

You seem like a deluded privileged person. You’re probably in the first or third category of what the PP described:

============

There are not a lot of other avenues for YOUR kids outside of what you've listed, because you've made them believe that. But that is not true for all other UMC kids.

+1 Thinking about PP's analysis of the "types", I think I'd put my family in group #1. We're not at a private school but kids went to a high-achieving/UMC public HS. I think a lot of our contentment, or confidence, that our kids will do fine in life if we just support them in pursuing their interests and they go to solid but not “the best” colleges, mainly comes from looking around at the people we know, the young people we work with and in our families, and seeing that plenty of people are getting along fine in life without buying into this idea that the only way to success is a T20 college + doctor/lawyer/hot tech job. As long as you don't define "success" as making the absolute highest salary you possibly can.

DH and I and my siblings all went to middle of the road public colleges and have done just fine. Professional careers but not the big money dr/lawyer/etc. BIL's kids (all Millennials) didn’t go to college at all and all are gainfully employed and home owners (in a lower COL city). Among my large group of cousins, I’ve seen a lot of their kids launch into solid careers from a huge range of schools in recent years so it's not just an outdated GenX memory. I work with people from all kinds of colleges. I just don’t get the fear. I do acknowledge that my kids, particularly one interested in a less high-paying path, may need to set sights on lower COL areas but that’s the trade-off she will need to make in prioritizing her passion and she fully recognizes that. We did discuss it as she thought about majors, colleges, etc.

We’re not 1%’ers but are able to send the kids to college without debt (public U for one, LAC w/ merit for the other) and I anticipate they will each get some inheritance from my mom (now in her mid-80s) which will help them with an initial downpayment for a first home purchase. Those two things are a huge leg up for getting started in life. So yes, we are privileged but a lot less than other who seems so stressed out about this. Maybe because the higher you go in income, the harder it would be for your kids to replicate that income? Maybe that's just not a reasonable expectation at some point. Especially not if you have to destroy your kids' mental health in pursuit of it.

Do you recognize the privilege that you've grown up with and/or live now? You point towards your anecdata as reasons why college rankings don't matter, but peer-reviewed studies by Chetty and others have consistently shown that college rankings matter.

Some of the people most stressed out about this, most focused on it being so important that their kids go to top ranked school have a ton of privilege. Their kids will be fine if they go to the #80 ranked school vs. #10.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I was friends with someone who did part-time work at one of the competitive (but not big three) schools in MoCo. She ended up leaving because she said the kids were so stressed out and fearful of anything short of perfection. She was a high achiever herself and from a highly competitive public school in the Northeast. She thought it was not the DMV but more the times.

It’s definitely the times. I live elsewhere and am involved in independent school leadership. We hear parents during admissions season say they want a supportive community, a low-pressure school focused on individuals, not achievement, and a place where their child is valued for who they are. And these parents genuinely want this- it’s not fake. But once their child is in school the script flips and they want to know why we aren’t testing, why exmissions weren’t “better”, comparisons to other area schools, and explanations for why their 2nd grader is doing pre-calc.

It is ALL fear and insecurity and it comes from parents who don’t actually know their own values and what they hold important. They are scared to be in touch with or even discuss what they’re trying to get out of in life, and they fall back on the safety of external validation and “achievement” once their children are old enough to be compared to others or have to compete for resources.

It’s probably the biggest problem facing schools, parents, and kids. And I have no idea how it can get fixed because so few people dare to walk away from the game- and those that do are often so privileged that they are actually the ones running the game and making the rules.

I think you ended up inadvertently nailing the point here --

But this definitely isn't the case in this day and age. The external markers of adulthood -- buying a house in a good pyramid, saving for your kids' college while also paying for daycare, medical expenses, and retirement, have all gotten incredibly expensive. Income inequality is at an all-time high.

To survive in this world, kids need to be at the top of their game economically. And that means that they have to CRUSH IT in their schoolwork and ECs in high school, get accepted into a reputable college (not necessarily an elite one, but at the very least a solid school like VA Tech), and major in CS or Finance or do pre-med.

After college graduation, young adults these days MUST go into tech or finance or into med school (with hopes of matching into a lucrative speciality, not something like pediatrics) if they want to be UMC (not rich, just comfortable) in this day and age.

DP. Fwiw, this is incorrect. Income inequality is at an all time high but that's a red herring. Aside from the 0.0001%, the MC is shrinking because the UMC/UC is increasing. The size of the LC is not growing, the MC are moving up. Gen Z has figured out that a college degree is not worth it for many people and companies/employers are dropping these requirements. While doctors and lawyers can be lucrative stable careers (or not), there are plenty of other avenues to UMC/UC lives for our kids.

It may be hard to see in the Bay Area, and it may be hard to see in the DMV, but we don't need to fight over Ivy/top tier schools for our kids. The pressure and insecurity is false.

PP here. No, you’re totally wrong. There are NOT a lot of other avenues to the UMC for kids these days except for tech, finance, medicine, consulting, or corporate law. And where you go to college matters — full stop.

You seem like a deluded privileged person. You’re probably in the first or third category of what the PP described:

============

There are not a lot of other avenues for YOUR kids outside of what you've listed, because you've made them believe that. But that is not true for all other UMC kids.

+1 Thinking about PP's analysis of the "types", I think I'd put my family in group #1. We're not at a private school but kids went to a high-achieving/UMC public HS. I think a lot of our contentment, or confidence, that our kids will do fine in life if we just support them in pursuing their interests and they go to solid but not “the best” colleges, mainly comes from looking around at the people we know, the young people we work with and in our families, and seeing that plenty of people are getting along fine in life without buying into this idea that the only way to success is a T20 college + doctor/lawyer/hot tech job. As long as you don't define "success" as making the absolute highest salary you possibly can.

DH and I and my siblings all went to middle of the road public colleges and have done just fine. Professional careers but not the big money dr/lawyer/etc. BIL's kids (all Millennials) didn’t go to college at all and all are gainfully employed and home owners (in a lower COL city). Among my large group of cousins, I’ve seen a lot of their kids launch into solid careers from a huge range of schools in recent years so it's not just an outdated GenX memory. I work with people from all kinds of colleges. I just don’t get the fear. I do acknowledge that my kids, particularly one interested in a less high-paying path, may need to set sights on lower COL areas but that’s the trade-off she will need to make in prioritizing her passion and she fully recognizes that. We did discuss it as she thought about majors, colleges, etc.

We’re not 1%’ers but are able to send the kids to college without debt (public U for one, LAC w/ merit for the other) and I anticipate they will each get some inheritance from my mom (now in her mid-80s) which will help them with an initial downpayment for a first home purchase. Those two things are a huge leg up for getting started in life. So yes, we are privileged but a lot less than other who seems so stressed out about this. Maybe because the higher you go in income, the harder it would be for your kids to replicate that income? Maybe that's just not a reasonable expectation at some point. Especially not if you have to destroy your kids' mental health in pursuit of it.

Well, maybe that was possible for you because you grew up in the 90s and you're a Gen Xer. But nowadays, even previously affordable areas like Denver or Portland or Richmond are skyrocketing in prices. Young adults these days need to prioritize high-paying careers.

+1

Read this thread: https://www.dcurbanmom.com/jforum/posts/list/45/1043100.page

"I think a big part of the problem is that wages have not kept up with inflation and increased cost of living. It’s becoming increasingly difficult to make a decent living. You have a select group of people (Big law, some IT, finance, etc) making insane amounts of money while everyone else is left behind. It’s a shame. We want smart folks to go into nursing, teaching, science/research, mental health, etc."

I know young recent grads going into these fields. Yeah, they may live in a condo vs. buying a SFH. Maybe live in Baltimore suburbs vs DC. Housing cost is definitely a huge factor and that is a problem. But ultimately, we do not help kids by insisting that there is only one path or they are doomed. That's the message too many get in these high achieving culture schools. It also is a belief that can lead people into getting into a lot of debt because they believe you can only be successful going to a top ranked (and expensive) college. And THAT is what holds you back in starting life. Housing is definitely too expensive but add that to a big student loam payment and it really becomes impossible.

This really isn't true. HYPSM give out great financial aid. The average debt load at Harvard is less than it is at UVA.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I was friends with someone who did part-time work at one of the competitive (but not big three) schools in MoCo. She ended up leaving because she said the kids were so stressed out and fearful of anything short of perfection. She was a high achiever herself and from a highly competitive public school in the Northeast. She thought it was not the DMV but more the times.

It’s definitely the times. I live elsewhere and am involved in independent school leadership. We hear parents during admissions season say they want a supportive community, a low-pressure school focused on individuals, not achievement, and a place where their child is valued for who they are. And these parents genuinely want this- it’s not fake. But once their child is in school the script flips and they want to know why we aren’t testing, why exmissions weren’t “better”, comparisons to other area schools, and explanations for why their 2nd grader is doing pre-calc.

It is ALL fear and insecurity and it comes from parents who don’t actually know their own values and what they hold important. They are scared to be in touch with or even discuss what they’re trying to get out of in life, and they fall back on the safety of external validation and “achievement” once their children are old enough to be compared to others or have to compete for resources.

It’s probably the biggest problem facing schools, parents, and kids. And I have no idea how it can get fixed because so few people dare to walk away from the game- and those that do are often so privileged that they are actually the ones running the game and making the rules.

I think you ended up inadvertently nailing the point here --

But this definitely isn't the case in this day and age. The external markers of adulthood -- buying a house in a good pyramid, saving for your kids' college while also paying for daycare, medical expenses, and retirement, have all gotten incredibly expensive. Income inequality is at an all-time high.

To survive in this world, kids need to be at the top of their game economically. And that means that they have to CRUSH IT in their schoolwork and ECs in high school, get accepted into a reputable college (not necessarily an elite one, but at the very least a solid school like VA Tech), and major in CS or Finance or do pre-med.

After college graduation, young adults these days MUST go into tech or finance or into med school (with hopes of matching into a lucrative speciality, not something like pediatrics) if they want to be UMC (not rich, just comfortable) in this day and age.

DP. Fwiw, this is incorrect. Income inequality is at an all time high but that's a red herring. Aside from the 0.0001%, the MC is shrinking because the UMC/UC is increasing. The size of the LC is not growing, the MC are moving up. Gen Z has figured out that a college degree is not worth it for many people and companies/employers are dropping these requirements. While doctors and lawyers can be lucrative stable careers (or not), there are plenty of other avenues to UMC/UC lives for our kids.

It may be hard to see in the Bay Area, and it may be hard to see in the DMV, but we don't need to fight over Ivy/top tier schools for our kids. The pressure and insecurity is false.

PP here. No, you’re totally wrong. There are NOT a lot of other avenues to the UMC for kids these days except for tech, finance, medicine, consulting, or corporate law. And where you go to college matters — full stop.

You seem like a deluded privileged person. You’re probably in the first or third category of what the PP described:

============

There are not a lot of other avenues for YOUR kids outside of what you've listed, because you've made them believe that. But that is not true for all other UMC kids.

+1 Thinking about PP's analysis of the "types", I think I'd put my family in group #1. We're not at a private school but kids went to a high-achieving/UMC public HS. I think a lot of our contentment, or confidence, that our kids will do fine in life if we just support them in pursuing their interests and they go to solid but not “the best” colleges, mainly comes from looking around at the people we know, the young people we work with and in our families, and seeing that plenty of people are getting along fine in life without buying into this idea that the only way to success is a T20 college + doctor/lawyer/hot tech job. As long as you don't define "success" as making the absolute highest salary you possibly can.

DH and I and my siblings all went to middle of the road public colleges and have done just fine. Professional careers but not the big money dr/lawyer/etc. BIL's kids (all Millennials) didn’t go to college at all and all are gainfully employed and home owners (in a lower COL city). Among my large group of cousins, I’ve seen a lot of their kids launch into solid careers from a huge range of schools in recent years so it's not just an outdated GenX memory. I work with people from all kinds of colleges. I just don’t get the fear. I do acknowledge that my kids, particularly one interested in a less high-paying path, may need to set sights on lower COL areas but that’s the trade-off she will need to make in prioritizing her passion and she fully recognizes that. We did discuss it as she thought about majors, colleges, etc.

We’re not 1%’ers but are able to send the kids to college without debt (public U for one, LAC w/ merit for the other) and I anticipate they will each get some inheritance from my mom (now in her mid-80s) which will help them with an initial downpayment for a first home purchase. Those two things are a huge leg up for getting started in life. So yes, we are privileged but a lot less than other who seems so stressed out about this. Maybe because the higher you go in income, the harder it would be for your kids to replicate that income? Maybe that's just not a reasonable expectation at some point. Especially not if you have to destroy your kids' mental health in pursuit of it.

Do you recognize the privilege that you've grown up with and/or live now? You point towards your anecdata as reasons why college rankings don't matter, but peer-reviewed studies by Chetty and others have consistently shown that college rankings matter.

Some of the people most stressed out about this, most focused on it being so important that their kids go to top ranked school have a ton of privilege. Their kids will be fine if they go to the #80 ranked school vs. #10.

I think it's the opposite. All these posters that are saying "college doesn't matter. I went to Northsoutheastwestern State with a 2.7 GPA and I'm UMC now - hard work matters more than pedigree" doesn't understand that people of color, or first generation immigrants, or people without parents to help them have to have [/b] flawless [/b] resumes just to be invited to interview with companies.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I was friends with someone who did part-time work at one of the competitive (but not big three) schools in MoCo. She ended up leaving because she said the kids were so stressed out and fearful of anything short of perfection. She was a high achiever herself and from a highly competitive public school in the Northeast. She thought it was not the DMV but more the times.

It’s definitely the times. I live elsewhere and am involved in independent school leadership. We hear parents during admissions season say they want a supportive community, a low-pressure school focused on individuals, not achievement, and a place where their child is valued for who they are. And these parents genuinely want this- it’s not fake. But once their child is in school the script flips and they want to know why we aren’t testing, why exmissions weren’t “better”, comparisons to other area schools, and explanations for why their 2nd grader is doing pre-calc.

It is ALL fear and insecurity and it comes from parents who don’t actually know their own values and what they hold important. They are scared to be in touch with or even discuss what they’re trying to get out of in life, and they fall back on the safety of external validation and “achievement” once their children are old enough to be compared to others or have to compete for resources.

It’s probably the biggest problem facing schools, parents, and kids. And I have no idea how it can get fixed because so few people dare to walk away from the game- and those that do are often so privileged that they are actually the ones running the game and making the rules.

I think you ended up inadvertently nailing the point here --

But this definitely isn't the case in this day and age. The external markers of adulthood -- buying a house in a good pyramid, saving for your kids' college while also paying for daycare, medical expenses, and retirement, have all gotten incredibly expensive. Income inequality is at an all-time high.

To survive in this world, kids need to be at the top of their game economically. And that means that they have to CRUSH IT in their schoolwork and ECs in high school, get accepted into a reputable college (not necessarily an elite one, but at the very least a solid school like VA Tech), and major in CS or Finance or do pre-med.

After college graduation, young adults these days MUST go into tech or finance or into med school (with hopes of matching into a lucrative speciality, not something like pediatrics) if they want to be UMC (not rich, just comfortable) in this day and age.

DP. Fwiw, this is incorrect. Income inequality is at an all time high but that's a red herring. Aside from the 0.0001%, the MC is shrinking because the UMC/UC is increasing. The size of the LC is not growing, the MC are moving up. Gen Z has figured out that a college degree is not worth it for many people and companies/employers are dropping these requirements. While doctors and lawyers can be lucrative stable careers (or not), there are plenty of other avenues to UMC/UC lives for our kids.

It may be hard to see in the Bay Area, and it may be hard to see in the DMV, but we don't need to fight over Ivy/top tier schools for our kids. The pressure and insecurity is false.

PP here. No, you’re totally wrong. There are NOT a lot of other avenues to the UMC for kids these days except for tech, finance, medicine, consulting, or corporate law. And where you go to college matters — full stop.

You seem like a deluded privileged person. You’re probably in the first or third category of what the PP described:

============

There are not a lot of other avenues for YOUR kids outside of what you've listed, because you've made them believe that. But that is not true for all other UMC kids.

+1 Thinking about PP's analysis of the "types", I think I'd put my family in group #1. We're not at a private school but kids went to a high-achieving/UMC public HS. I think a lot of our contentment, or confidence, that our kids will do fine in life if we just support them in pursuing their interests and they go to solid but not “the best” colleges, mainly comes from looking around at the people we know, the young people we work with and in our families, and seeing that plenty of people are getting along fine in life without buying into this idea that the only way to success is a T20 college + doctor/lawyer/hot tech job. As long as you don't define "success" as making the absolute highest salary you possibly can.

DH and I and my siblings all went to middle of the road public colleges and have done just fine. Professional careers but not the big money dr/lawyer/etc. BIL's kids (all Millennials) didn’t go to college at all and all are gainfully employed and home owners (in a lower COL city). Among my large group of cousins, I’ve seen a lot of their kids launch into solid careers from a huge range of schools in recent years so it's not just an outdated GenX memory. I work with people from all kinds of colleges. I just don’t get the fear. I do acknowledge that my kids, particularly one interested in a less high-paying path, may need to set sights on lower COL areas but that’s the trade-off she will need to make in prioritizing her passion and she fully recognizes that. We did discuss it as she thought about majors, colleges, etc.

We’re not 1%’ers but are able to send the kids to college without debt (public U for one, LAC w/ merit for the other) and I anticipate they will each get some inheritance from my mom (now in her mid-80s) which will help them with an initial downpayment for a first home purchase. Those two things are a huge leg up for getting started in life. So yes, we are privileged but a lot less than other who seems so stressed out about this. Maybe because the higher you go in income, the harder it would be for your kids to replicate that income? Maybe that's just not a reasonable expectation at some point. Especially not if you have to destroy your kids' mental health in pursuit of it.

Do you recognize the privilege that you've grown up with and/or live now? You point towards your anecdata as reasons why college rankings don't matter, but peer-reviewed studies by Chetty and others have consistently shown that college rankings matter.

Some of the people most stressed out about this, most focused on it being so important that their kids go to top ranked school have a ton of privilege. Their kids will be fine if they go to the #80 ranked school vs. #10.

I think it's the opposite. All these posters that are saying "college doesn't matter. I went to Northsoutheastwestern State with a 2.7 GPA and I'm UMC now - hard work matters more than pedigree" doesn't understand that people of color, or first generation immigrants, or people without parents to help them have to have [/b] flawless [/b] resumes just to be invited to interview with companies.

There's more to life than that. Really. There is. That's the point of this thread. You don't have to put that pressure on kids. They can't take it, no one can.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I was friends with someone who did part-time work at one of the competitive (but not big three) schools in MoCo. She ended up leaving because she said the kids were so stressed out and fearful of anything short of perfection. She was a high achiever herself and from a highly competitive public school in the Northeast. She thought it was not the DMV but more the times.

It’s definitely the times. I live elsewhere and am involved in independent school leadership. We hear parents during admissions season say they want a supportive community, a low-pressure school focused on individuals, not achievement, and a place where their child is valued for who they are. And these parents genuinely want this- it’s not fake. But once their child is in school the script flips and they want to know why we aren’t testing, why exmissions weren’t “better”, comparisons to other area schools, and explanations for why their 2nd grader is doing pre-calc.

It is ALL fear and insecurity and it comes from parents who don’t actually know their own values and what they hold important. They are scared to be in touch with or even discuss what they’re trying to get out of in life, and they fall back on the safety of external validation and “achievement” once their children are old enough to be compared to others or have to compete for resources.

It’s probably the biggest problem facing schools, parents, and kids. And I have no idea how it can get fixed because so few people dare to walk away from the game- and those that do are often so privileged that they are actually the ones running the game and making the rules.

I think you ended up inadvertently nailing the point here --

But this definitely isn't the case in this day and age. The external markers of adulthood -- buying a house in a good pyramid, saving for your kids' college while also paying for daycare, medical expenses, and retirement, have all gotten incredibly expensive. Income inequality is at an all-time high.

To survive in this world, kids need to be at the top of their game economically. And that means that they have to CRUSH IT in their schoolwork and ECs in high school, get accepted into a reputable college (not necessarily an elite one, but at the very least a solid school like VA Tech), and major in CS or Finance or do pre-med.

After college graduation, young adults these days MUST go into tech or finance or into med school (with hopes of matching into a lucrative speciality, not something like pediatrics) if they want to be UMC (not rich, just comfortable) in this day and age.

DP. Fwiw, this is incorrect. Income inequality is at an all time high but that's a red herring. Aside from the 0.0001%, the MC is shrinking because the UMC/UC is increasing. The size of the LC is not growing, the MC are moving up. Gen Z has figured out that a college degree is not worth it for many people and companies/employers are dropping these requirements. While doctors and lawyers can be lucrative stable careers (or not), there are plenty of other avenues to UMC/UC lives for our kids.

It may be hard to see in the Bay Area, and it may be hard to see in the DMV, but we don't need to fight over Ivy/top tier schools for our kids. The pressure and insecurity is false.

PP here. No, you’re totally wrong. There are NOT a lot of other avenues to the UMC for kids these days except for tech, finance, medicine, consulting, or corporate law. And where you go to college matters — full stop.

You seem like a deluded privileged person. You’re probably in the first or third category of what the PP described:

============

There are not a lot of other avenues for YOUR kids outside of what you've listed, because you've made them believe that. But that is not true for all other UMC kids.

+1 Thinking about PP's analysis of the "types", I think I'd put my family in group #1. We're not at a private school but kids went to a high-achieving/UMC public HS. I think a lot of our contentment, or confidence, that our kids will do fine in life if we just support them in pursuing their interests and they go to solid but not “the best” colleges, mainly comes from looking around at the people we know, the young people we work with and in our families, and seeing that plenty of people are getting along fine in life without buying into this idea that the only way to success is a T20 college + doctor/lawyer/hot tech job. As long as you don't define "success" as making the absolute highest salary you possibly can.

DH and I and my siblings all went to middle of the road public colleges and have done just fine. Professional careers but not the big money dr/lawyer/etc. BIL's kids (all Millennials) didn’t go to college at all and all are gainfully employed and home owners (in a lower COL city). Among my large group of cousins, I’ve seen a lot of their kids launch into solid careers from a huge range of schools in recent years so it's not just an outdated GenX memory. I work with people from all kinds of colleges. I just don’t get the fear. I do acknowledge that my kids, particularly one interested in a less high-paying path, may need to set sights on lower COL areas but that’s the trade-off she will need to make in prioritizing her passion and she fully recognizes that. We did discuss it as she thought about majors, colleges, etc.

We’re not 1%’ers but are able to send the kids to college without debt (public U for one, LAC w/ merit for the other) and I anticipate they will each get some inheritance from my mom (now in her mid-80s) which will help them with an initial downpayment for a first home purchase. Those two things are a huge leg up for getting started in life. So yes, we are privileged but a lot less than other who seems so stressed out about this. Maybe because the higher you go in income, the harder it would be for your kids to replicate that income? Maybe that's just not a reasonable expectation at some point. Especially not if you have to destroy your kids' mental health in pursuit of it.

Do you recognize the privilege that you've grown up with and/or live now? You point towards your anecdata as reasons why college rankings don't matter, but peer-reviewed studies by Chetty and others have consistently shown that college rankings matter.

Some of the people most stressed out about this, most focused on it being so important that their kids go to top ranked school have a ton of privilege. Their kids will be fine if they go to the #80 ranked school vs. #10.

I think it's the opposite. All these posters that are saying "college doesn't matter. I went to Northsoutheastwestern State with a 2.7 GPA and I'm UMC now - hard work matters more than pedigree" doesn't understand that people of color, or first generation immigrants, or people without parents to help them have to have [/b] flawless [/b] resumes just to be invited to interview with companies.

There's more to life than that. Really. There is. That's the point of this thread. You don't have to put that pressure on kids. They can't take it, no one can.

I guarantee that you’re a privileged white person. Basically any POC would agree with the PP above. I’m the Chinatown PP, and I am perpetually grateful that my parents pushed me academically. I attended HYPSM and that name on my resume has given me a permanent boost in the job market, which has been invaluable as a woman of color.

Your absurdist statement that “you don’t have to put this pressure on your kids” because “no one can take it” is absurd. Tons of Asian immigrant kids every year thrive under that pressure.

Your obliviousness and white privilege are coming through, loud and clear.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I was friends with someone who did part-time work at one of the competitive (but not big three) schools in MoCo. She ended up leaving because she said the kids were so stressed out and fearful of anything short of perfection. She was a high achiever herself and from a highly competitive public school in the Northeast. She thought it was not the DMV but more the times.

It’s definitely the times. I live elsewhere and am involved in independent school leadership. We hear parents during admissions season say they want a supportive community, a low-pressure school focused on individuals, not achievement, and a place where their child is valued for who they are. And these parents genuinely want this- it’s not fake. But once their child is in school the script flips and they want to know why we aren’t testing, why exmissions weren’t “better”, comparisons to other area schools, and explanations for why their 2nd grader is doing pre-calc.

It is ALL fear and insecurity and it comes from parents who don’t actually know their own values and what they hold important. They are scared to be in touch with or even discuss what they’re trying to get out of in life, and they fall back on the safety of external validation and “achievement” once their children are old enough to be compared to others or have to compete for resources.

It’s probably the biggest problem facing schools, parents, and kids. And I have no idea how it can get fixed because so few people dare to walk away from the game- and those that do are often so privileged that they are actually the ones running the game and making the rules.

I think you ended up inadvertently nailing the point here --

But this definitely isn't the case in this day and age. The external markers of adulthood -- buying a house in a good pyramid, saving for your kids' college while also paying for daycare, medical expenses, and retirement, have all gotten incredibly expensive. Income inequality is at an all-time high.

To survive in this world, kids need to be at the top of their game economically. And that means that they have to CRUSH IT in their schoolwork and ECs in high school, get accepted into a reputable college (not necessarily an elite one, but at the very least a solid school like VA Tech), and major in CS or Finance or do pre-med.

After college graduation, young adults these days MUST go into tech or finance or into med school (with hopes of matching into a lucrative speciality, not something like pediatrics) if they want to be UMC (not rich, just comfortable) in this day and age.

DP. Fwiw, this is incorrect. Income inequality is at an all time high but that's a red herring. Aside from the 0.0001%, the MC is shrinking because the UMC/UC is increasing. The size of the LC is not growing, the MC are moving up. Gen Z has figured out that a college degree is not worth it for many people and companies/employers are dropping these requirements. While doctors and lawyers can be lucrative stable careers (or not), there are plenty of other avenues to UMC/UC lives for our kids.

It may be hard to see in the Bay Area, and it may be hard to see in the DMV, but we don't need to fight over Ivy/top tier schools for our kids. The pressure and insecurity is false.

PP here. No, you’re totally wrong. There are NOT a lot of other avenues to the UMC for kids these days except for tech, finance, medicine, consulting, or corporate law. And where you go to college matters — full stop.

You seem like a deluded privileged person. You’re probably in the first or third category of what the PP described:

============

There are not a lot of other avenues for YOUR kids outside of what you've listed, because you've made them believe that. But that is not true for all other UMC kids.

+1 Thinking about PP's analysis of the "types", I think I'd put my family in group #1. We're not at a private school but kids went to a high-achieving/UMC public HS. I think a lot of our contentment, or confidence, that our kids will do fine in life if we just support them in pursuing their interests and they go to solid but not “the best” colleges, mainly comes from looking around at the people we know, the young people we work with and in our families, and seeing that plenty of people are getting along fine in life without buying into this idea that the only way to success is a T20 college + doctor/lawyer/hot tech job. As long as you don't define "success" as making the absolute highest salary you possibly can.

DH and I and my siblings all went to middle of the road public colleges and have done just fine. Professional careers but not the big money dr/lawyer/etc. BIL's kids (all Millennials) didn’t go to college at all and all are gainfully employed and home owners (in a lower COL city). Among my large group of cousins, I’ve seen a lot of their kids launch into solid careers from a huge range of schools in recent years so it's not just an outdated GenX memory. I work with people from all kinds of colleges. I just don’t get the fear. I do acknowledge that my kids, particularly one interested in a less high-paying path, may need to set sights on lower COL areas but that’s the trade-off she will need to make in prioritizing her passion and she fully recognizes that. We did discuss it as she thought about majors, colleges, etc.

We’re not 1%’ers but are able to send the kids to college without debt (public U for one, LAC w/ merit for the other) and I anticipate they will each get some inheritance from my mom (now in her mid-80s) which will help them with an initial downpayment for a first home purchase. Those two things are a huge leg up for getting started in life. So yes, we are privileged but a lot less than other who seems so stressed out about this. Maybe because the higher you go in income, the harder it would be for your kids to replicate that income? Maybe that's just not a reasonable expectation at some point. Especially not if you have to destroy your kids' mental health in pursuit of it.

Do you recognize the privilege that you've grown up with and/or live now? You point towards your anecdata as reasons why college rankings don't matter, but peer-reviewed studies by Chetty and others have consistently shown that college rankings matter.

Some of the people most stressed out about this, most focused on it being so important that their kids go to top ranked school have a ton of privilege. Their kids will be fine if they go to the #80 ranked school vs. #10.

I think it's the opposite. All these posters that are saying "college doesn't matter. I went to Northsoutheastwestern State with a 2.7 GPA and I'm UMC now - hard work matters more than pedigree" doesn't understand that people of color, or first generation immigrants, or people without parents to help them have to have flawless [/b] resumes just to be invited to interview with companies. [/b]

That's not true. Our company (and many others I know) specifically recruit these groups. The ones who have to be "flawless" are the people outside of these groups, because they're a dime a dozen.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I was friends with someone who did part-time work at one of the competitive (but not big three) schools in MoCo. She ended up leaving because she said the kids were so stressed out and fearful of anything short of perfection. She was a high achiever herself and from a highly competitive public school in the Northeast. She thought it was not the DMV but more the times.

It’s definitely the times. I live elsewhere and am involved in independent school leadership. We hear parents during admissions season say they want a supportive community, a low-pressure school focused on individuals, not achievement, and a place where their child is valued for who they are. And these parents genuinely want this- it’s not fake. But once their child is in school the script flips and they want to know why we aren’t testing, why exmissions weren’t “better”, comparisons to other area schools, and explanations for why their 2nd grader is doing pre-calc.

It is ALL fear and insecurity and it comes from parents who don’t actually know their own values and what they hold important. They are scared to be in touch with or even discuss what they’re trying to get out of in life, and they fall back on the safety of external validation and “achievement” once their children are old enough to be compared to others or have to compete for resources.

It’s probably the biggest problem facing schools, parents, and kids. And I have no idea how it can get fixed because so few people dare to walk away from the game- and those that do are often so privileged that they are actually the ones running the game and making the rules.

I think you ended up inadvertently nailing the point here --

But this definitely isn't the case in this day and age. The external markers of adulthood -- buying a house in a good pyramid, saving for your kids' college while also paying for daycare, medical expenses, and retirement, have all gotten incredibly expensive. Income inequality is at an all-time high.

To survive in this world, kids need to be at the top of their game economically. And that means that they have to CRUSH IT in their schoolwork and ECs in high school, get accepted into a reputable college (not necessarily an elite one, but at the very least a solid school like VA Tech), and major in CS or Finance or do pre-med.

After college graduation, young adults these days MUST go into tech or finance or into med school (with hopes of matching into a lucrative speciality, not something like pediatrics) if they want to be UMC (not rich, just comfortable) in this day and age.

DP. Fwiw, this is incorrect. Income inequality is at an all time high but that's a red herring. Aside from the 0.0001%, the MC is shrinking because the UMC/UC is increasing. The size of the LC is not growing, the MC are moving up. Gen Z has figured out that a college degree is not worth it for many people and companies/employers are dropping these requirements. While doctors and lawyers can be lucrative stable careers (or not), there are plenty of other avenues to UMC/UC lives for our kids.

It may be hard to see in the Bay Area, and it may be hard to see in the DMV, but we don't need to fight over Ivy/top tier schools for our kids. The pressure and insecurity is false.

PP here. No, you’re totally wrong. There are NOT a lot of other avenues to the UMC for kids these days except for tech, finance, medicine, consulting, or corporate law. And where you go to college matters — full stop.

You seem like a deluded privileged person. You’re probably in the first or third category of what the PP described:

============

There are not a lot of other avenues for YOUR kids outside of what you've listed, because you've made them believe that. But that is not true for all other UMC kids.

+1 Thinking about PP's analysis of the "types", I think I'd put my family in group #1. We're not at a private school but kids went to a high-achieving/UMC public HS. I think a lot of our contentment, or confidence, that our kids will do fine in life if we just support them in pursuing their interests and they go to solid but not “the best” colleges, mainly comes from looking around at the people we know, the young people we work with and in our families, and seeing that plenty of people are getting along fine in life without buying into this idea that the only way to success is a T20 college + doctor/lawyer/hot tech job. As long as you don't define "success" as making the absolute highest salary you possibly can.

DH and I and my siblings all went to middle of the road public colleges and have done just fine. Professional careers but not the big money dr/lawyer/etc. BIL's kids (all Millennials) didn’t go to college at all and all are gainfully employed and home owners (in a lower COL city). Among my large group of cousins, I’ve seen a lot of their kids launch into solid careers from a huge range of schools in recent years so it's not just an outdated GenX memory. I work with people from all kinds of colleges. I just don’t get the fear. I do acknowledge that my kids, particularly one interested in a less high-paying path, may need to set sights on lower COL areas but that’s the trade-off she will need to make in prioritizing her passion and she fully recognizes that. We did discuss it as she thought about majors, colleges, etc.

We’re not 1%’ers but are able to send the kids to college without debt (public U for one, LAC w/ merit for the other) and I anticipate they will each get some inheritance from my mom (now in her mid-80s) which will help them with an initial downpayment for a first home purchase. Those two things are a huge leg up for getting started in life. So yes, we are privileged but a lot less than other who seems so stressed out about this. Maybe because the higher you go in income, the harder it would be for your kids to replicate that income? Maybe that's just not a reasonable expectation at some point. Especially not if you have to destroy your kids' mental health in pursuit of it.

Do you recognize the privilege that you've grown up with and/or live now? You point towards your anecdata as reasons why college rankings don't matter, but peer-reviewed studies by Chetty and others have consistently shown that college rankings matter.

Some of the people most stressed out about this, most focused on it being so important that their kids go to top ranked school have a ton of privilege. Their kids will be fine if they go to the #80 ranked school vs. #10.

I think it's the opposite. All these posters that are saying "college doesn't matter. I went to Northsoutheastwestern State with a 2.7 GPA and I'm UMC now - hard work matters more than pedigree" doesn't understand that people of color, or first generation immigrants, or people without parents to help them have to have flawless [/b] resumes just to be invited to interview with companies. [/b]

That's not true. Our company (and many others I know) specifically recruit these groups. The ones who have to be "flawless" are the people outside of these groups, because they're a dime a dozen.

It's true and well documented: https://www.inc.com/marcel-schwantes/why-minority-job-applicants-mask-their-race-identities-when-applying-for-jobs-according-to-this-harvard-study.html

Your claim is anecdotal, made up, or is missing the point that, even if you are "targetting" those groups, you're still picking Larla Patel with a 4.0 from MIT, not Larlo Lee from Northsoutheastern State.

[Anonymous]

I feel the most sorry for the child of recent immigrants (who often are) from a country where a national exam score determines which college one can attend. So many of those kids are under so much pressure at home to bring in only As and nothing B or below. Those immigrant parents sometimes do not understand that “Mary” whose parent and grandparent went to X and have been giving big bucks to X for multiple generations and has a mix of As and Bs has a huge advantage with X at admissions time. Some kids can thrive under pressure, but many do not thrive.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I feel the most sorry for the child of recent immigrants (who often are) from a country where a national exam score determines which college one can attend. So many of those kids are under so much pressure at home to bring in only As and nothing B or below. Those immigrant parents sometimes do not understand that “Mary” whose parent and grandparent went to X and have been giving big bucks to X for multiple generations and has a mix of As and Bs has a huge advantage with X at admissions time. Some kids can thrive under pressure, but many do not thrive.

FULL STOP

(Mic drop)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I feel the most sorry for the child of recent immigrants (who often are) from a country where a national exam score determines which college one can attend. So many of those kids are under so much pressure at home to bring in only As and nothing B or below. Those immigrant parents sometimes do not understand that “Mary” whose parent and grandparent went to X and have been giving big bucks to X for multiple generations and has a mix of As and Bs has a huge advantage with X at admissions time. Some kids can thrive under pressure, but many do not thrive.

This is so offensive. All white people are WASPs that have family legacy college grads? SMH

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I was friends with someone who did part-time work at one of the competitive (but not big three) schools in MoCo. She ended up leaving because she said the kids were so stressed out and fearful of anything short of perfection. She was a high achiever herself and from a highly competitive public school in the Northeast. She thought it was not the DMV but more the times.

It’s definitely the times. I live elsewhere and am involved in independent school leadership. We hear parents during admissions season say they want a supportive community, a low-pressure school focused on individuals, not achievement, and a place where their child is valued for who they are. And these parents genuinely want this- it’s not fake. But once their child is in school the script flips and they want to know why we aren’t testing, why exmissions weren’t “better”, comparisons to other area schools, and explanations for why their 2nd grader is doing pre-calc.

It is ALL fear and insecurity and it comes from parents who don’t actually know their own values and what they hold important. They are scared to be in touch with or even discuss what they’re trying to get out of in life, and they fall back on the safety of external validation and “achievement” once their children are old enough to be compared to others or have to compete for resources.

It’s probably the biggest problem facing schools, parents, and kids. And I have no idea how it can get fixed because so few people dare to walk away from the game- and those that do are often so privileged that they are actually the ones running the game and making the rules.

I think you ended up inadvertently nailing the point here --

But this definitely isn't the case in this day and age. The external markers of adulthood -- buying a house in a good pyramid, saving for your kids' college while also paying for daycare, medical expenses, and retirement, have all gotten incredibly expensive. Income inequality is at an all-time high.

To survive in this world, kids need to be at the top of their game economically. And that means that they have to CRUSH IT in their schoolwork and ECs in high school, get accepted into a reputable college (not necessarily an elite one, but at the very least a solid school like VA Tech), and major in CS or Finance or do pre-med.

After college graduation, young adults these days MUST go into tech or finance or into med school (with hopes of matching into a lucrative speciality, not something like pediatrics) if they want to be UMC (not rich, just comfortable) in this day and age.

DP. Fwiw, this is incorrect. Income inequality is at an all time high but that's a red herring. Aside from the 0.0001%, the MC is shrinking because the UMC/UC is increasing. The size of the LC is not growing, the MC are moving up. Gen Z has figured out that a college degree is not worth it for many people and companies/employers are dropping these requirements. While doctors and lawyers can be lucrative stable careers (or not), there are plenty of other avenues to UMC/UC lives for our kids.

It may be hard to see in the Bay Area, and it may be hard to see in the DMV, but we don't need to fight over Ivy/top tier schools for our kids. The pressure and insecurity is false.

PP here. No, you’re totally wrong. There are NOT a lot of other avenues to the UMC for kids these days except for tech, finance, medicine, consulting, or corporate law. And where you go to college matters — full stop.

You seem like a deluded privileged person. You’re probably in the first or third category of what the PP described:

============

There are not a lot of other avenues for YOUR kids outside of what you've listed, because you've made them believe that. But that is not true for all other UMC kids.

+1 Thinking about PP's analysis of the "types", I think I'd put my family in group #1. We're not at a private school but kids went to a high-achieving/UMC public HS. I think a lot of our contentment, or confidence, that our kids will do fine in life if we just support them in pursuing their interests and they go to solid but not “the best” colleges, mainly comes from looking around at the people we know, the young people we work with and in our families, and seeing that plenty of people are getting along fine in life without buying into this idea that the only way to success is a T20 college + doctor/lawyer/hot tech job. As long as you don't define "success" as making the absolute highest salary you possibly can.

DH and I and my siblings all went to middle of the road public colleges and have done just fine. Professional careers but not the big money dr/lawyer/etc. BIL's kids (all Millennials) didn’t go to college at all and all are gainfully employed and home owners (in a lower COL city). Among my large group of cousins, I’ve seen a lot of their kids launch into solid careers from a huge range of schools in recent years so it's not just an outdated GenX memory. I work with people from all kinds of colleges. I just don’t get the fear. I do acknowledge that my kids, particularly one interested in a less high-paying path, may need to set sights on lower COL areas but that’s the trade-off she will need to make in prioritizing her passion and she fully recognizes that. We did discuss it as she thought about majors, colleges, etc.

We’re not 1%’ers but are able to send the kids to college without debt (public U for one, LAC w/ merit for the other) and I anticipate they will each get some inheritance from my mom (now in her mid-80s) which will help them with an initial downpayment for a first home purchase. Those two things are a huge leg up for getting started in life. So yes, we are privileged but a lot less than other who seems so stressed out about this. Maybe because the higher you go in income, the harder it would be for your kids to replicate that income? Maybe that's just not a reasonable expectation at some point. Especially not if you have to destroy your kids' mental health in pursuit of it.

Do you recognize the privilege that you've grown up with and/or live now? You point towards your anecdata as reasons why college rankings don't matter, but peer-reviewed studies by Chetty and others have consistently shown that college rankings matter.

Some of the people most stressed out about this, most focused on it being so important that their kids go to top ranked school have a ton of privilege. Their kids will be fine if they go to the #80 ranked school vs. #10.

I think it's the opposite. All these posters that are saying "college doesn't matter. I went to Northsoutheastwestern State with a 2.7 GPA and I'm UMC now - hard work matters more than pedigree" doesn't understand that people of color, or first generation immigrants, or people without parents to help them have to have flawless [/b] resumes just to be invited to interview with companies. [/b]

That's not true. Our company (and many others I know) specifically recruit these groups. The ones who have to be "flawless" are the people outside of these groups, because they're a dime a dozen.

It's true and well documented: https://www.inc.com/marcel-schwantes/why-minority-job-applicants-mask-their-race-identities-when-applying-for-jobs-according-to-this-harvard-study.html

Your claim is anecdotal, made up, or is missing the point that, even if you are "targetting" those groups, you're still picking Larla Patel with a 4.0 from MIT, not Larlo Lee from Northsoutheastern State.

That article uses data from 2017. In todays world a minority kid with equal SES and hardships etc would gain preference over a white kid in many cases.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I feel the most sorry for the child of recent immigrants (who often are) from a country where a national exam score determines which college one can attend. So many of those kids are under so much pressure at home to bring in only As and nothing B or below. Those immigrant parents sometimes do not understand that “Mary” whose parent and grandparent went to X and have been giving big bucks to X for multiple generations and has a mix of As and Bs has a huge advantage with X at admissions time. Some kids can thrive under pressure, but many do not thrive.

FULL STOP

(Mic drop)

Psst you're not supposed to drop the mic for sarcasm

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I was friends with someone who did part-time work at one of the competitive (but not big three) schools in MoCo. She ended up leaving because she said the kids were so stressed out and fearful of anything short of perfection. She was a high achiever herself and from a highly competitive public school in the Northeast. She thought it was not the DMV but more the times.

It’s definitely the times. I live elsewhere and am involved in independent school leadership. We hear parents during admissions season say they want a supportive community, a low-pressure school focused on individuals, not achievement, and a place where their child is valued for who they are. And these parents genuinely want this- it’s not fake. But once their child is in school the script flips and they want to know why we aren’t testing, why exmissions weren’t “better”, comparisons to other area schools, and explanations for why their 2nd grader is doing pre-calc.

It is ALL fear and insecurity and it comes from parents who don’t actually know their own values and what they hold important. They are scared to be in touch with or even discuss what they’re trying to get out of in life, and they fall back on the safety of external validation and “achievement” once their children are old enough to be compared to others or have to compete for resources.

It’s probably the biggest problem facing schools, parents, and kids. And I have no idea how it can get fixed because so few people dare to walk away from the game- and those that do are often so privileged that they are actually the ones running the game and making the rules.

I think you ended up inadvertently nailing the point here --

But this definitely isn't the case in this day and age. The external markers of adulthood -- buying a house in a good pyramid, saving for your kids' college while also paying for daycare, medical expenses, and retirement, have all gotten incredibly expensive. Income inequality is at an all-time high.

To survive in this world, kids need to be at the top of their game economically. And that means that they have to CRUSH IT in their schoolwork and ECs in high school, get accepted into a reputable college (not necessarily an elite one, but at the very least a solid school like VA Tech), and major in CS or Finance or do pre-med.

After college graduation, young adults these days MUST go into tech or finance or into med school (with hopes of matching into a lucrative speciality, not something like pediatrics) if they want to be UMC (not rich, just comfortable) in this day and age.

DP. Fwiw, this is incorrect. Income inequality is at an all time high but that's a red herring. Aside from the 0.0001%, the MC is shrinking because the UMC/UC is increasing. The size of the LC is not growing, the MC are moving up. Gen Z has figured out that a college degree is not worth it for many people and companies/employers are dropping these requirements. While doctors and lawyers can be lucrative stable careers (or not), there are plenty of other avenues to UMC/UC lives for our kids.

It may be hard to see in the Bay Area, and it may be hard to see in the DMV, but we don't need to fight over Ivy/top tier schools for our kids. The pressure and insecurity is false.

PP here. No, you’re totally wrong. There are NOT a lot of other avenues to the UMC for kids these days except for tech, finance, medicine, consulting, or corporate law. And where you go to college matters — full stop.

You seem like a deluded privileged person. You’re probably in the first or third category of what the PP described:

============

There are not a lot of other avenues for YOUR kids outside of what you've listed, because you've made them believe that. But that is not true for all other UMC kids.

+1 Thinking about PP's analysis of the "types", I think I'd put my family in group #1. We're not at a private school but kids went to a high-achieving/UMC public HS. I think a lot of our contentment, or confidence, that our kids will do fine in life if we just support them in pursuing their interests and they go to solid but not “the best” colleges, mainly comes from looking around at the people we know, the young people we work with and in our families, and seeing that plenty of people are getting along fine in life without buying into this idea that the only way to success is a T20 college + doctor/lawyer/hot tech job. As long as you don't define "success" as making the absolute highest salary you possibly can.

DH and I and my siblings all went to middle of the road public colleges and have done just fine. Professional careers but not the big money dr/lawyer/etc. BIL's kids (all Millennials) didn’t go to college at all and all are gainfully employed and home owners (in a lower COL city). Among my large group of cousins, I’ve seen a lot of their kids launch into solid careers from a huge range of schools in recent years so it's not just an outdated GenX memory. I work with people from all kinds of colleges. I just don’t get the fear. I do acknowledge that my kids, particularly one interested in a less high-paying path, may need to set sights on lower COL areas but that’s the trade-off she will need to make in prioritizing her passion and she fully recognizes that. We did discuss it as she thought about majors, colleges, etc.

We’re not 1%’ers but are able to send the kids to college without debt (public U for one, LAC w/ merit for the other) and I anticipate they will each get some inheritance from my mom (now in her mid-80s) which will help them with an initial downpayment for a first home purchase. Those two things are a huge leg up for getting started in life. So yes, we are privileged but a lot less than other who seems so stressed out about this. Maybe because the higher you go in income, the harder it would be for your kids to replicate that income? Maybe that's just not a reasonable expectation at some point. Especially not if you have to destroy your kids' mental health in pursuit of it.

Do you recognize the privilege that you've grown up with and/or live now? You point towards your anecdata as reasons why college rankings don't matter, but peer-reviewed studies by Chetty and others have consistently shown that college rankings matter.

Some of the people most stressed out about this, most focused on it being so important that their kids go to top ranked school have a ton of privilege. Their kids will be fine if they go to the #80 ranked school vs. #10.

I think it's the opposite. All these posters that are saying "college doesn't matter. I went to Northsoutheastwestern State with a 2.7 GPA and I'm UMC now - hard work matters more than pedigree" doesn't understand that people of color, or first generation immigrants, or people without parents to help them have to have flawless [/b] resumes just to be invited to interview with companies. [/b]

That's not true. Our company (and many others I know) specifically recruit these groups. The ones who have to be "flawless" are the people outside of these groups, because they're a dime a dozen.

It's true and well documented: https://www.inc.com/marcel-schwantes/why-minority-job-applicants-mask-their-race-identities-when-applying-for-jobs-according-to-this-harvard-study.html

Your claim is anecdotal, made up, or is missing the point that, even if you are "targetting" those groups, you're still picking Larla Patel with a 4.0 from MIT, not Larlo Lee from Northsoutheastern State.

That article uses data from 2017. In todays world a minority kid with equal SES and hardships etc would gain preference over a white kid in many cases.

citation? Or do your personal "feelings" refute peer-reviewed scientific articles?

Every decade, there's always people who say that applicants of color now have an advantage over white applicants because of affirmative action, DEI, etc... the bulk of scientific studies have shown that these naysayers are wrong. We are mobing towards a more just society, but racial affinity towards white applicants still exist, whether you accept it or choose to ignore it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I feel the most sorry for the child of recent immigrants (who often are) from a country where a national exam score determines which college one can attend. So many of those kids are under so much pressure at home to bring in only As and nothing B or below. Those immigrant parents sometimes do not understand that “Mary” whose parent and grandparent went to X and have been giving big bucks to X for multiple generations and has a mix of As and Bs has a huge advantage with X at admissions time. Some kids can thrive under pressure, but many do not thrive.

This happens more in countries where there's such a large differnce in quality of life between UMC and LMC. UMC families in the US have incomes that are 3X-5X more than LMC families and people from countries (e.g. China, India) where that difference is even larger are aware of the pitfalls of not attaining UMC.

This doesn't happen as much in egalitarian societies - there's not as much competition to get into the best universities in, e.g. Sweden and Denmark. Mostly because UMC income is only 1.5-2X that of LMC.

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Anonymous wrote:I was friends with someone who did part-time work at one of the competitive (but not big three) schools in MoCo. She ended up leaving because she said the kids were so stressed out and fearful of anything short of perfection. She was a high achiever herself and from a highly competitive public school in the Northeast. She thought it was not the DMV but more the times.

It’s definitely the times. I live elsewhere and am involved in independent school leadership. We hear parents during admissions season say they want a supportive community, a low-pressure school focused on individuals, not achievement, and a place where their child is valued for who they are. And these parents genuinely want this- it’s not fake. But once their child is in school the script flips and they want to know why we aren’t testing, why exmissions weren’t “better”, comparisons to other area schools, and explanations for why their 2nd grader is doing pre-calc.

It is ALL fear and insecurity and it comes from parents who don’t actually know their own values and what they hold important. They are scared to be in touch with or even discuss what they’re trying to get out of in life, and they fall back on the safety of external validation and “achievement” once their children are old enough to be compared to others or have to compete for resources.

It’s probably the biggest problem facing schools, parents, and kids. And I have no idea how it can get fixed because so few people dare to walk away from the game- and those that do are often so privileged that they are actually the ones running the game and making the rules.

I think you ended up inadvertently nailing the point here --

But this definitely isn't the case in this day and age. The external markers of adulthood -- buying a house in a good pyramid, saving for your kids' college while also paying for daycare, medical expenses, and retirement, have all gotten incredibly expensive. Income inequality is at an all-time high.

To survive in this world, kids need to be at the top of their game economically. And that means that they have to CRUSH IT in their schoolwork and ECs in high school, get accepted into a reputable college (not necessarily an elite one, but at the very least a solid school like VA Tech), and major in CS or Finance or do pre-med.

After college graduation, young adults these days MUST go into tech or finance or into med school (with hopes of matching into a lucrative speciality, not something like pediatrics) if they want to be UMC (not rich, just comfortable) in this day and age.

DP. Fwiw, this is incorrect. Income inequality is at an all time high but that's a red herring. Aside from the 0.0001%, the MC is shrinking because the UMC/UC is increasing. The size of the LC is not growing, the MC are moving up. Gen Z has figured out that a college degree is not worth it for many people and companies/employers are dropping these requirements. While doctors and lawyers can be lucrative stable careers (or not), there are plenty of other avenues to UMC/UC lives for our kids.

It may be hard to see in the Bay Area, and it may be hard to see in the DMV, but we don't need to fight over Ivy/top tier schools for our kids. The pressure and insecurity is false.

PP here. No, you’re totally wrong. There are NOT a lot of other avenues to the UMC for kids these days except for tech, finance, medicine, consulting, or corporate law. And where you go to college matters — full stop.

You seem like a deluded privileged person. You’re probably in the first or third category of what the PP described:

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There are not a lot of other avenues for YOUR kids outside of what you've listed, because you've made them believe that. But that is not true for all other UMC kids.

+1 Thinking about PP's analysis of the "types", I think I'd put my family in group #1. We're not at a private school but kids went to a high-achieving/UMC public HS. I think a lot of our contentment, or confidence, that our kids will do fine in life if we just support them in pursuing their interests and they go to solid but not “the best” colleges, mainly comes from looking around at the people we know, the young people we work with and in our families, and seeing that plenty of people are getting along fine in life without buying into this idea that the only way to success is a T20 college + doctor/lawyer/hot tech job. As long as you don't define "success" as making the absolute highest salary you possibly can.

DH and I and my siblings all went to middle of the road public colleges and have done just fine. Professional careers but not the big money dr/lawyer/etc. BIL's kids (all Millennials) didn’t go to college at all and all are gainfully employed and home owners (in a lower COL city). Among my large group of cousins, I’ve seen a lot of their kids launch into solid careers from a huge range of schools in recent years so it's not just an outdated GenX memory. I work with people from all kinds of colleges. I just don’t get the fear. I do acknowledge that my kids, particularly one interested in a less high-paying path, may need to set sights on lower COL areas but that’s the trade-off she will need to make in prioritizing her passion and she fully recognizes that. We did discuss it as she thought about majors, colleges, etc.

We’re not 1%’ers but are able to send the kids to college without debt (public U for one, LAC w/ merit for the other) and I anticipate they will each get some inheritance from my mom (now in her mid-80s) which will help them with an initial downpayment for a first home purchase. Those two things are a huge leg up for getting started in life. So yes, we are privileged but a lot less than other who seems so stressed out about this. Maybe because the higher you go in income, the harder it would be for your kids to replicate that income? Maybe that's just not a reasonable expectation at some point. Especially not if you have to destroy your kids' mental health in pursuit of it.

Do you recognize the privilege that you've grown up with and/or live now? You point towards your anecdata as reasons why college rankings don't matter, but peer-reviewed studies by Chetty and others have consistently shown that college rankings matter.

Some of the people most stressed out about this, most focused on it being so important that their kids go to top ranked school have a ton of privilege. Their kids will be fine if they go to the #80 ranked school vs. #10.

I think it's the opposite. All these posters that are saying "college doesn't matter. I went to Northsoutheastwestern State with a 2.7 GPA and I'm UMC now - hard work matters more than pedigree" doesn't understand that people of color, or first generation immigrants, or people without parents to help them have to have flawless [/b] resumes just to be invited to interview with companies. [/b]

That's not true. Our company (and many others I know) specifically recruit these groups. The ones who have to be "flawless" are the people outside of these groups, because they're a dime a dozen.

How do you tell who's in group1? Group 2? Group 3?